G500
Posts: 1258
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:45 pm

Why Is Heathrow So Important?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:33 am

Airlines always jockying for position there. Heathrow's slots seem to be most sought after of any major airport, now even one airline "might consider switching alliances" if it buys a competitor just to gain more access to that airport.

There are so many systematically important airports in the world (NRT, SYD, LAX, JFK, CDG, FRA etc)

Why are so many airlines all Gung ho over LHR???
 
sw733
Posts: 5302
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:19 am

RE: Why Is Heathrow So Important?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:35 am

The slot situation isn't LHR specific. Many big airlines around the world, including JFK (from your list), have the same thing.

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):

Why are so many airlines all Gung ho over LHR???

It's a huge business hub with a huge population base that has a bunch of money. All of these things bring people in, and specifically business people, who are willing to spend money on travel. London is one of the worlds biggest business cities, so along with it comes a huge amount of high yielding travel, which a lot of airlines want in on.
 
zhiao
Posts: 441
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:52 am

RE: Why Is Heathrow So Important?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:46 am

Because of London, and its geographic position.
 
WROORD
Posts: 667
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2009 5:36 pm

RE: Why Is Heathrow So Important?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:55 am

It has to do with the old good British Empire and its colonies. There are still many political, business and personal ties to London making it a prime destination.
For decades US travelers to Europe picked London as their number one place to go and even when they go elsewhere they fly to London.
 
commavia
Posts: 9743
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: Why Is Heathrow So Important?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:01 am

Because London is so important. London is, along with New York, basically at the center of the global economic system, and as such generates an astounding amount of air traffic demand and - importantly - an extremely high proportion of high-yielding, premium, business traffic demand. Airlines crave and seek this type of passenger who pays a high fare, and often. Given that, it's only natural that the airport in the region that is both (a) the largest, and (b) the closest to the city that can handle any major longhaul traffic, that airport is going to attract a disproportionately high level of attention from global airlines.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 18974
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Why Is Heathrow So Important?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:07 am

Airlines serving LHR normally generate higher yields than those serving other European hubs since a higher percentage of LHR traffic is O&D rather than connecting traffic. Yields on nonstop O&D routes are almost always higher than for traffic connecting through a hub since a nonstop is a better product, and when you connect through a hub you're normally competing with many other one-stop connections.

Carriers like KLM and Swiss wouldn't exist (or would be a tiny fraction of their current size) if they had to rely only on O&D traffic to/from the Netherlands and Switzerland. BA could survive quite well even if they carried nothing but O&D traffic to/from London.

As already mentioned, London is one of the world's major financial centers and thus attracts a higher proportion of high yield traffic paying the highest fares than most other airports.
 
User avatar
TWA772LR
Posts: 3705
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:12 am

RE: Why Is Heathrow So Important?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:42 am

I think the OP means why all the airlines flock to just LHR and not LGW or Stansted or Luton. I have wondered that as well. My guess is it would be the closest to the city center, besides LCY of course. But I've only been to London once and flew into LGW so I don't know much.
Beauty is watching a 787 bank to make a short final. Bliss is watching that 787 with a good beer. Nirvana is all of that with a beautiful woman on your side.
 
questions
Posts: 1144
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:51 am

RE: Why Is Heathrow So Important?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:05 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 5):
BA could survive quite well even if they carried nothing but O&D traffic to/from London.

Really? You mean like how VS is surviving quite well?
 
G500
Posts: 1258
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:45 pm

RE: Why Is Heathrow So Important?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:59 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 5):
Airlines serving LHR normally generate higher yields than those serving other European hubs since a higher percentage of LHR traffic is O&D rather than connecting traffic. .

Maybe that's it

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 6):
I think the OP means why all the airlines flock to just LHR and not LGW or Stansted or Luton

yes thank you, that's what I meant


As for London being a "financial hub" and the " center of the global economic universe", then why don't these airlines show the same enthusiam for LGW, Standted or Luton.

are there even any U.S airlines still flying to LGW?
 
mikey72
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: Why Is Heathrow So Important?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:10 am

Quoting questions (Reply 7):
Really? You mean like how VS is surviving quite well?
VS is a great airline (shame about the management) but it is no BA.

BA is in oneWorld, has JV's that span the globe and is half of IAG.

That's the difference.

Besides... the very existence of VS (they are very unique now) is testament to $$$ appeal of LHR.

[Edited 2012-01-19 03:11:32]
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
Eljonno
Posts: 93
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2008 7:52 pm

RE: Why Is Heathrow So Important?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:12 am

Quoting g500 (Reply 8):
are there even any U.S airlines still flying to LGW?

Yes. DL from ATL and US from CLT. Not sure why they haven't moved up the road to LHR though.
 
tayser
Posts: 397
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:49 pm

RE: Why Is Heathrow So Important?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:18 am

Because it's the financial* capital of the globe.

* New York = equities, Chicago = futures/derivatives, London = banking/foreign exchange

London and continental Europe straddle the middle of the financial day. Australia/Asia start the day, Europe are in the middle, the Americas at the end of the day. The London morning deals with the Asia/Australia end of day and the London afternoon deals with the Americas' morning - it's a position that is never going to change.

LHR just happens to be the most convenient airport for international flights in London.
 
LHRFlyer
Posts: 695
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2010 12:50 pm

RE: Why Is Heathrow So Important?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:27 am

As a capital London is unique in that not only is it the capital city, but also the centre of business and media.

The UK economy is heavily geared to London & The South East. GDP per head and the ratio of private sector employment to public sector employment is much higher than in the rest of the UK.

As well as being one of the world’s biggest financial centres, London is also a major player in the creative industries (fashion, advertising, television, music, print/publishing).

London, as well as Oxford and Cambridge, is also a popular choice for international students. It’s probably only one of a handful of cities that can truly claim be an international city and to be honest having lived/worked in and outside of London it’s almost a different country compared other parts of England.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 6678
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

RE: Why Is Heathrow So Important?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:30 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 6):
I think the OP means why all the airlines flock to just LHR and not LGW or Stansted or Luton.

My simplistic answer if this is what the OP really meant is that is the way the Brits want it.
The airports in the London city area are under their control, they have the ability to channel traffic where they see fit, including ensuring that their is sufficient ground transportation available to and from the city center and surrounding areas.
A lot of money has been spent on LHR, less so on the others, there are a few laws / rules that were put in place years ago to prevent expansion. BA had some split operation between LHR and LGW but for the most part I believe that was voluntary on the airlines part and not a mandate by the government to "rationalize" the air traffic situation.

I guess there is also something to be said about a single airport being so important versus saying a city and its airports are most important, a sense of pride somewhat. Looking at the debate on an additional runway at LHR and the continued growth expected in the industry, LHR will get more delays, larger a/c will be mandated thus either forcing smaller players from the market or pushing them into high risk strategies to get larger a/c specifically to serve one airport in their route structure, the airport may well become more exclusive and more in demand than at present.
One thing I do not see happening is a new airport or additional runways as long as traffic and interest remains, when those start falling off the topic will be seriously addressed.
 
mikey72
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: Why Is Heathrow So Important?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:53 am

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 12):
to be honest having lived/worked in and outside of London it’s almost a different country compared other parts of England.

It is a metropolis. You are correct but of course it is different to other parts of the UK.

Consider Paris especially.

Parisians are practically a different breed to the rest of the French !!

The coasts of the U.S.A, Los Angeles and New York. The populations of these cities although 3,000 miles apart have similar political tendancies compared to the central belt.

London is not unique in this way.

Metropolitan versus provincial...touchy subject.

[Edited 2012-01-19 03:57:04]
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
lhr380
Posts: 2453
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:39 pm

RE: Why Is Heathrow So Important?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:58 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 5):

With the amount of transit traffic BA get at LHR, it would struggle if it was just O/D traffic. Transfer traffic brings in once In a while more people thru the airport then are actually Joining In London at some peak periods. If the carrier was O/D only it would look very different then it does now.
(The views on this site are my own and no one elses)
 
richardw
Posts: 3135
Joined: Tue May 08, 2001 3:17 am

RE: Why Is Heathrow So Important?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:58 am

There are many Brits for whom Heathrow is not important to them as passengers, most of these live outside London and some of them base their facts on what their parents or friends told them and they may have last visited in 1989, before T5 was built, before T4 was refurbished and before T2 was knocked down.
 
lhr380
Posts: 2453
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:39 pm

RE: Why Is Heathrow So Important?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:03 pm

Quoting richardw (Reply 16):

But out of the UK, most big carriers bring their customers to LHR. some have smaller aircraft operating to regions from their own hubs, but their is more scope and flexibility flying thru LHR, especially longhaul, to get to a lot of Euro and UK destinations. That can not be denied.
(The views on this site are my own and no one elses)
 
richardw
Posts: 3135
Joined: Tue May 08, 2001 3:17 am

RE: Why Is Heathrow So Important?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:08 pm

Quoting lhr380 (Reply 17):
But out of the UK, most big carriers bring their customers to LHR. some have smaller aircraft operating to regions from their own hubs, but their is more scope and flexibility flying thru LHR, especially longhaul, to get to a lot of Euro and UK destinations. That can not be denied.

UK regional airports have

US carriers
Middle East carriers
Far East carriers
European carriers with hubs in France, The Netherlands and Germany.
bmibaby, easyJet, Jet2, and Ryanair and charter airlines all fly to Europe.

Many Brits away from Heathrow can fly from regional airports to many places in this world avoiding Heathrow.
 
Josh32121
Posts: 236
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 1:02 am

RE: Why Is Heathrow So Important?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:14 pm

Quoting eljonno (Reply 10):
Yes. DL from ATL and US from CLT. Not sure why they haven't moved up the road to LHR though.

I can't speak for US, but to clarify, DL serves both airports with the only LGW service being a single ATL-LGW round-trip daily versus BOS, JFK (3x), ATL, MIA, MSP, and DTW service to LHR. There must be a business reason for continuing to serve Gatwick. Perhaps business travelers going to destinations just south of the city or very price-conscious leisure travelers and FF-ers redeeming SkyMiles (which would free up more seats on the LHR flight--particularly in J--that they can sell for cash instead on award tickets). ATL-LGW was also DL's first transatlantic flight, so perhaps there's some nostalgia at play, too.
 
Gingersnap
Posts: 823
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:09 pm

RE: Why Is Heathrow So Important?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:24 pm

Quoting richardw (Reply 18):
Many Brits away from Heathrow can fly from regional airports to many places in this world avoiding Heathrow.

Very true, but at times I've noticed at a premium.

Went skiing in the Alps a couple of years back, and we wanted to fly down to GVA. We looked at various airlines and airports, and the cheapest was by far with LH out of LHR via FRA which we chose.
Flown on: A306 A319/20/21 A332 B732/3/4/5/7/8 B742/4 B752 B762/3 B772/W C152 E195 F70/100 MD-82 Q400
 
mikey72
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: Why Is Heathrow So Important?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:50 pm

Quoting lhr380 (Reply 17):
But out of the UK, most big carriers bring their customers to LHR. some have smaller aircraft operating to regions from their own hubs, but their is more scope and flexibility flying thru LHR, especially longhaul, to get to a lot of Euro and UK destinations. That can not be denied.

It can on A.net.

Discounting transfer traffic (EK, EY etc) how many scheduled long-haul non-stop routes are there from airports outside of London ?

Couple of upholstered rollerskates to the east coast, UAE, VS to Vegas, Disney World.

That about it ?
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
richardw
Posts: 3135
Joined: Tue May 08, 2001 3:17 am

RE: Why Is Heathrow So Important?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:00 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 21):
That about it ?

No, see the clues in reply 18.

If I live in ABZ and want to fly long haul, I have a choice of connecting at Dublin, Paris, Frankfurt, Heathrow, Amsterdam, going East, West and South.

[Edited 2012-01-19 05:28:48]
 
rutankrd
Posts: 2587
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2003 6:08 am

RE: Why Is Heathrow So Important?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:15 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 21):
can on A.net.

Discounting transfer traffic (EK, EY etc) how many scheduled long-haul non-stop routes are there from airports outside of London ?

Couple of upholstered rollerskates to the east coast, UAE, VS to Vegas, Disney World.

That about it ?

Into Manchester,Singapore Pakistan, Air Blue and Biman !
Plus China Airlines Cargo, Lufthansa Cargo and Cathay Pacific Cargo.

Into Aberdeen - AZAL Azerbaijan
 
mikey72
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: Why Is Heathrow So Important?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:24 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 23):
Into Manchester,Singapore Pakistan, Air Blue and Biman !
Plus China Airlines Cargo, Lufthansa Cargo and Cathay Pacific Cargo.

SQ is via MUC though. Cargo not really the same thing is it ? Pakistan, Biman - couple of world leaders there !

Quoting richardw (Reply 18):
UK regional airports have

US carriers
Middle East carriers
Far East carriers
European carriers with hubs in France, The Netherlands and Germany.
bmibaby, easyJet, Jet2, and Ryanair and charter airlines all fly to Europe.

US carriers - before mentioned upholstered rollerskates. Then only a couple of them.

Middle East carriers
Far East carriers - it's mostly connecting traffic, not much O&D

European carriers with hubs in France, The Netherlands and Germany - more connecting traffic.

C'mon guys - be realistic. Transfer is great it works. Non-stop - it's Heathrow.

Where's Cathay, Thai, Qantas, South African, United, AIr India, JAL, Air China, Korean, LAN...ad infinitum

More importantly where's BA and VS ?

Down the road, that's where.

Don't you think VS would be operating otherwise ?
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
ytz
Posts: 3033
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:31 am

RE: Why Is Heathrow So Important?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:35 pm

Heathrow is important because London is important. It was the first real global city. And it remains among the most pre-eminent of global cities. That said, it's quite possible that London will become less prominent internationally over time, as China, India and Brazil rise in economic prominence. China already has an economy larger than the UK. India and Brazil are likely to achieve the same feat by the end of the decade, or even mid-way through it. There's even an outlying possibility that India and Brazil could surpass Germany in the size of their economies. As this happens, the UK will be less economically important, and London will be less prominent as a global economic centre, compared to places like Shanghai, Hong Kong, Mumbai, Bangalore or Rio de Janeiro.

We'll have to wait and see how the 787 impacts the value of slots at LHR against this backdrop. Smart airlines will want to launch more flights to these growing economies and bypass LHR, FRA, CDG, etc. altogether.

As for the value of LHR relative to LGW, Stansted, Luton, etc. I put it down to one thing: access. LHR is way easier to get to from most of London compared to the others. If the other airports had the same transport connections, the pressures on LHR would probably be significantly lower.

[Edited 2012-01-19 06:46:36]
 
rutankrd
Posts: 2587
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2003 6:08 am

RE: Why Is Heathrow So Important?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:07 pm

Manchester

AA - JFK and O'Hare
UA - EWK and Dullas
US - Philadelphia
DL= Atlanta (JFK suspended in 2012)

Yes AA and UA are using 75W and they also use them into LHR !

Delta is a daily 763 and US a A333

As for US they have a pharmaceutical client and its more profitable than their LHR service !

I would also point out that in the real economy (Not Finance) , getting your goods from your suppliers is VERY important hence the freighters.
MAG group with EMA handle more pure freighters than the London airports these days.(But FAR FAR behind Amsterdam !)

Further much/most of this real trade continues to be with close EU neighbours and these are especially well connected to Manchester (There are more of these routes to the near EU than from Heathrow)

Different economy differing priorities - A airport with nearly 19 million pax pa is no small player

Also given the general state of ground infrastructure (dis-jointed rail and congested M6/M6toll M40/42 and M1) is it little wonder that ME3 and LH/KL are taking more and more connecting long haul traffic from BA.

To be honest BA can probably stand this bleed in order to serve London O&D and transfer flows over Europe/India- US.

No one disputes LHR as being the UKs only HUB (BA O/W) and Star focus city with a huge selection of long haulers from all over however it remains weak in Africa, South America and China, and with each tern of season LHR seems to loose more of those really important EU feed and business services.
 
mikey72
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: Why Is Heathrow So Important?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:10 pm

Quoting lhr380 (Reply 15):
With the amount of transit traffic BA get at LHR, it would struggle if it was just O/D traffic. Transfer traffic brings in once In a while more people thru the airport then are actually Joining In London at some peak periods. If the carrier was O/D only it would look very different then it does now.

  

In the case of BA the amount of traffic that is 'lost' by being London centric is far less than the amount of traffic 'gained' from other areas due to the 'advantages' of 'being' London centric.

It's as simple as that.

They gave up being an 'all thiings to all people - bums on seats' outfit a long time ago.

You can fly from MAN or EDI or GLA etc through one of the most advanced passenger air terminals in the world 'to' the world in one stop. The only exception on the BA network where it would be 2 stops is SYD.
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
rutankrd
Posts: 2587
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2003 6:08 am

RE: Why Is Heathrow So Important?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:33 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 24):
Where's Cathay, Thai, Qantas, South African, United, AIr India, JAL, Air China, Korean, LAN.

LAN does not and has never served the UK preferring Frankfurt even through they are in One World.

Chile has long standing trade links with major German industrial companies.

Cathay serve Heathrow at quite high frequencies for sure and leverage BA for connecting traffic ,. That said they COMPETE vigorously against BA on LHR-HKG direct services!

Thai need to sell much of the back end discounted and beyond BKK to fill the two daily services, and UK travellers still don't go to Thailand in the numbers of our Scandinavian brethren !

Qantas little comment other than to say they a shadow of what they once were in long haul .Still don't get the DFW service logic when Europe will be left with just 3 daily flights in total in a few weeks time

Air China South African and Air Canada have divulged the UK for closer ties with LH at FRA/MUC/ZRH in recent times with little to no growth from the UK

JAL are a busted flush internationally

It's not all roses (Gold) operating at Heathrow and are there are failures
 
oldtimer
Posts: 82
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2006 4:11 am

RE: Why Is Heathrow So Important?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:42 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 27):
You can fly from MAN or EDI or GLA etc through one of the most advanced passenger air terminals in the world 'to' the world in one stop. The only exception on the BA network where it would be 2 stops is SYD.

You are too LHR orientated, I spent 24 years of my life flying all over the world avoiding LHR , and I only had to go there to get direct to CGN.
LHR is a dump, will always be a dump because all it is is a great big shopping mall with very poor services for pax and airlines in general. I also avoid flying BA, the worlds most arrogant airline, with their poor service for Y passengers, not very good service for Club passengers, and the fawning of the so called elite passengers in first. By the way, I am not a socialist, but having at one time worked for BA, and flown them a lot to, I just avoid them like the plague.
Oldtimer, I should have known better!
 
rutankrd
Posts: 2587
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2003 6:08 am

RE: Why Is Heathrow So Important?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:59 pm

Quoting oldtimer (Reply 30):
LHR is a dump, will always be a dump because all it is is a great big shopping mall with very poor services for pax and airlines in general. I also avoid flying BA, the worlds most arrogant airline, with their poor service for Y passengers, not very good service for Club passengers, and the fawning of the so called elite passengers in first. By the way, I am not a socialist, but having at one time worked for BA, and flown them a lot to, I just avoid them like the plague.

Oldtimer i have some sympathy with your sentiment if a little outdated.

T5 is actually a very good experience, however i agree travelling anything less than the premium classes on BA is little better than going Orange.

As for the shopping mall experience that's the cost for scalping proper Duty Free within the EU and has afflicted just about all of the UKs primary airports.

All that said Mikey72 should avoid mentioning BA to Australia .

Its not just MORE stops it STILL a ground terminal change at Heathrow for the majority of connecting flights , oh and those few Euro services that do go to T3 are also bused.

So boarding an Emirates flight at the regionals remaining in the terminal airside and transferring onwards at DXB is enticing.
 
User avatar
kgaiflyer
Posts: 2574
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:22 am

RE: Why Is Heathrow So Important?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:05 pm

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 6):
I think the OP means why all the airlines flock to just LHR and not LGW or Stansted or Luton. I have wondered that as well. My guess is it would be the closest to the city center, besides LCY of course. But I've only been to London once and flew into LGW so I don't know much.

From the perspective of a rollerbag tourist rather than a business person -- It's so much easier to fly out of Heathrow vs. Gatwick. With a rollerbag and a strong set of arms, you can get from virtually any part of London to the airport on the Underground; or on "Connect"; or on the "Heathrow Express"; or even on the bus. And you can get to/from at least 20 airport-area hotels with National Coach's "Hoppa Bus" system. No other airport has anything like it.

I remember one year I was staying at a hotel across Bath Road from runway 27R and wound up using the Heathrow Coach Station shops to buy 'take out' that I could sequester back to my hotel room. I also remember back in 2005 being endorsed over to an American airline departing Gatwick rather than Heathrow. So I wound up taking the Underground to Heathrow and then National Coach from the Heathrow Coach Station to Gatwick Airport. In other words, the Heathrow Airport infrastructure is usable even by those not even using the airport terminals.

I doubt you can say that about London-City, Gatwick, Luton, or Stansted.
 
richardw
Posts: 3135
Joined: Tue May 08, 2001 3:17 am

RE: Why Is Heathrow So Important?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:12 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 24):
SQ is via MUC though.

It is a one stop at MUC, same aircraft B77W, same flight number 327
 
lhr380
Posts: 2453
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:39 pm

RE: Why Is Heathrow So Important?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:22 pm

Quoting oldtimer (Reply 30):

Sorry old timer, when did you last fly from LHR?
(The views on this site are my own and no one elses)
 
skipness1E
Posts: 3378
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

RE: Why Is Heathrow So Important?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:30 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 29):
Air China South African and Air Canada have divulged the UK for closer ties with LH at FRA/MUC/ZRH in recent times with little to no growth from the UK

Air Canada still has a much bigger operation from LHR than FRA, the same goes for South African and Air China operates one A332 from each. In what way is FRA bigger? Incidentally I don't think you mean divulged as in "to make known". Let's not turn this into a LHR v MAN thread with the usual suspects shouting please.

Quoting oldtimer (Reply 30):
LHR is a dump, will always be a dump because all it is is a great big shopping mall with very poor services for pax and airlines in general. I also avoid flying BA, the worlds most arrogant airline, with their poor service for Y passengers, not very good service for Club passengers, and the fawning of the so called elite passengers in first. By the way, I am not a socialist, but having at one time worked for BA, and flown them a lot to, I just avoid them like the plague.

Your opinion is based on experiences how old? Tried T5 or the new T4 yet? It's good to moan, a British tradition but credit please where investment and effort have paid off. LHR is being transformed.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 31):
So boarding an Emirates flight at the regionals remaining in the terminal airside and transferring onwards at DXB is enticing

If TEN abreast down the back is your thing then I agree, just avoid the B77W and make sure you book the A332 r the A380. T3 services with BA are the services seen to have the fewest transfer passengers so there's a method there.However no taking away what great options the gulf carriers offer, I don't intend to play my airlines better than yours though.
 
User avatar
kgaiflyer
Posts: 2574
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:22 am

RE: Why Is Heathrow So Important?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:34 pm

Quoting oldtimer (Reply 30):
LHR is a dump, will always be a dump because all it is is a great big shopping mall with very poor services for pax and airlines in general

You're obviously talking about old Terminal 2.

Terminal 2 was a dump (even the eateries were crappy). But it's been closed.
 
mikey72
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: Why Is Heathrow So Important?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:49 pm

Quoting oldtimer (Reply 30):
LHR is a dump, will always be a dump because all it is is a great big shopping mall with very poor services for pax and airlines in general. I also avoid flying BA, the worlds most arrogant airline, with their poor service for Y passengers, not very good service for Club passengers, and the fawning of the so called elite passengers in first. By the way, I am not a socialist, but having at one time worked for BA, and flown them a lot to, I just avoid them like the plague.


Charming ! LOL Each to their own though.

But hasn't BA Club World always been very successful ?

Fawning over First Class passengers ? You want to try some of the middles eastern carriers. 'Now that's fawning'

Anyway, the money they pay I think they deserve some fawning over.

Where do you live oldtimer ?....oh yeah Manchester. Mmmm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 31):
however i agree travelling anything less than the premium classes on BA is little better than going Orange.
WORLD TRAVELLER


WORLD TRAVELLER PLUS


The BA economy cabins look pretty good to me but I much prefer an LH 747 with no PTV or a UA 757 !

UK brand index -

In 2011, the PR crises of 2010 were avoided and that has allowed BA to continue its recovery – this time without the fallbacks, seeing a slow but steady rise from +17 to +26 points. The climb saw it overtake Qantas and Singapore Airlines early in 2011, move past Emirates in the late summer.

If current trends continue and British Airways suffers no more setbacks then 2012 could well be the year where it regains its mantle as Britain’s favourite airline.

[Edited 2012-01-19 09:12:34]
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
vinniewinnie
Posts: 628
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:23 am

RE: Why Is Heathrow So Important?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:52 pm

Quoting oldtimer (Reply 30):
LHR is a dump, will always be a dump because all it is is a great big shopping mall with very poor services for pax and airlines in general. I also avoid flying BA, the worlds most arrogant airline, with their poor service for Y passengers, not very good service for Club passengers, and the fawning of the so called elite passengers in first. By the way, I am not a socialist, but having at one time worked for BA, and flown them a lot to, I just avoid them like the plague.

You have never been to T5 have you?

T3 is actually pretty good. What is sorely lacking is a transit system behind the security checks linking all terminals together.

I flew AA (T3) then BA (T5) over Christmas and it was certainly far from enjoyable to take a bus between the two terminals.

In terms of why LHR. It's close to the city of London making it the main airport, you can go everywhere around the world from LHR pretty much direct, and London like New-York and maybe Tokyo is a world appart from other cities in terms business, migration and inbound and outbound tourism.

That counts!
 
GCT64
Posts: 1269
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 6:34 pm

RE: Why Is Heathrow So Important?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:59 pm

International Airlines Group Investor Presentation (by LHRFlyer Nov 11 2011 in Civil Aviation)

London O&D market is bigger than both the Paris & Amsterdam market combined
London O&D market is bigger than the FRA, MUC, ZRH, VIE and BRU O&D markets combined

Quite simply London is a massive O&D market, by a long way Europe's biggest, and this is what makes it attractive as a destination for the world's airlines. (Most) Airlines perceive LHR as being the most attractive airport to operate out of to serve London, LHR access is restricted due to acting at maximum capacity almost all day (I went three times round the hold at 0600 this morning - which gives an idea how early the congestion starts).

So, in short, it's all about "supply & demand", lots of demand and limited supply.
Flown in: A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A388,BA11,BU31,B190, B461,(..53 more types..),VC10,WESX
 
lhr380
Posts: 2453
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:39 pm

RE: Why Is Heathrow So Important?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:00 pm

Quoting oldtimer (Reply 30):

Oh, I missed your last dig at BA. so outdated hated of BA and LHR. That's the problem with some people, even if they have not been to a place for years, they will think the same thing about it forever, even though it has totally changed.

In my nearly 4 years at LHR I have seen a MAASIVE change in the airport and airline industry. LHR has changed so much, I bet you will be surprised how much.
(The views on this site are my own and no one elses)
 
G500
Posts: 1258
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:45 pm

RE: Why Is Heathrow So Important?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:20 pm

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 39):
London O&D market is bigger than both the Paris & Amsterdam market combined
London O&D market is bigger than the FRA, MUC, ZRH, VIE and BRU O&D markets combined

WOW that pretty much sums it up

Hard to believe than LHR O&D market is bigger than AMS and CDG combined.... Paris is the most visited city in the world. I'm not arguing, but it is hard to believe and I'm sure others will agree with me

good link, thanks for providing it
 
richardw
Posts: 3135
Joined: Tue May 08, 2001 3:17 am

RE: Why Is Heathrow So Important?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:33 pm

I have flown BA B77W JFK-LHR in April 2011 in New World traveller, great cabin and seating but a 31" pitch is tight, an extra inch on an AC A333 at 32" pitch was noticeably better.
 
rutankrd
Posts: 2587
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2003 6:08 am

RE: Why Is Heathrow So Important?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:47 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 35):
Air Canada still has a much bigger operation from LHR than FRA, the same goes for South African and Air China operates one A332 from each. In what way is FRA bigger? Incidentally I don't think you mean divulged as in "to make known". Let's not turn this into a LHR v MAN thread with the usual suspects shouting please.
Quoting skipness1E (Reply 35):
Air Canada still has a much bigger operation from LHR than FRA, the same goes for South African and Air China operates one A332 from each. In what way is FRA bigger? Incidentally I don't think you mean divulged as in "to make known". Let's not turn this into a LHR v MAN thread with the usual suspects shouting please.

Sorry divested interest !

Sorry But Air China have 2 flights day into Frankfurt AND one to Munich and one to Dusseldorf but just a 332 to LHR

True Air Canada has many flights a day into LHR however all expansion is now focused on *A hubs and this has been at the expense of the UK regions. (Each year fewer old dears visit - True theres no money in that is there?)

South African serve FRA and Munch with three flights a day
 
mainMAN
Posts: 1636
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:55 am

RE: Why Is Heathrow So Important?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:31 pm

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 12):
London, as well as Oxford and Cambridge, is also a popular choice for international students. It’s probably only one of a handful of cities that can truly claim be an international city and to be honest having lived/worked in and outside of London it’s almost a different country compared other parts of England.

I certainly wouldn't describe London as the only true international city in the UK. In terms of students, I'd class Birmingham, Leeds, Manchester, and Edinburgh as being international (from my own experience).

http://www.ukcisa.org.uk/about/statistics_he.php

In 2009/10, the University of Manchester (not Man Met or Salford) had 9910 foreign students, Leeds (not Leeds Met) 6420, Edinburgh 6450, Oxford 6215, and Cambridge 5800.
 
rfields5421
Posts: 5563
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

RE: Why Is Heathrow So Important?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:48 pm

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):
Why are so many airlines all Gung ho over LHR???

As they say in the real estate business the three most important reasons are

Location,,
Location,,
and Location.

LAX for example is in a terrible location for an international hub airport. There simply aren't enough people and businesses along routes to make it a flow through point. LAX is a huge destination, and a middlin gateway. The same with NRT and SYD.

A major airport in the south of England is perfectly positioned as a meeting point from traffic from across the Atlantic and the Middle East/ Far East. Add to that the history of the British Empire, the relationship between the United States and the UK during and after WWII - that puts a London airport connection at the top of the priority list for any airline.

Add in today's world financial structure - and London wins again.

Now as opposed to other potential airports - had FRA or CDG gone after this business community, this hub status back in the 1950s - they might be such a hub. You cannot dismiss how long it takes to modify historical relationships.

As far as the London area airports - any of them could have taken the place of LHR, but they would have had to invest in a dual parallel runway structure, middle of the field terminal area and ground transporation infrastructure back about 1965.

Yes, LHR might not be the most logical choice today, but 'how we've done it for year' is a big factor. So much of our airport system has just 'grown' rather than being planned.

Who knows, in 40 or 50 years it might change.

I think FRA is approaching LHR in importance, AMS has some potential also. But it will be very hard to win traffic away from LHR.

Though it seems the current and recent British governments have been doing all they can to limit the future of LHR and otgher London area airports.

You should also consider another factor - the current limits on LHR. Airlines can, and do, go into FRA, CDG, AMS. But we don't hear about slot swaps, etc for those because they are not operating at capacity. They have room for growth, for new airlines, for new service.

LHR on the other hand has issues - and that is the main reason in my opinion we hear more about going into LHR.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 18974
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Why Is Heathrow So Important?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:54 pm

Quoting richardw (Reply 42):
I have flown BA B77W JFK-LHR in April 2011 in New World traveller, great cabin and seating but a 31" pitch is tight, an extra inch on an AC A333 at 32" pitch was noticeably better.

Next time, sit in the center section (the 4-across seats) of AC A333s in the forward Y class cabin. Seat pitch in those seats is 33 inches.
http://aircanada.com/en/about/fleet/a330-300xm.html

[Edited 2012-01-19 14:17:29]
 
skipness1E
Posts: 3378
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

RE: Why Is Heathrow So Important?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:05 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 43):
South African serve FRA and Munch with three flights a day

I can find one flight from FRA-JNB per day, SA260 / 261 and one from MUC-JNB, SA265 / 266.Germany is WAY bigger than the UK and more geographically diverse. When you say three flights a day, do you mean three spread across two airports or three from each? Air Canada withdrew from GLA and MAN as the old market declined and Zoom came in and did it for less. Any growth at FRA is not actually linked to LHR as it's a mature market, indeed nobody in the UK is likely to head to YYZ via FRA unless they like going quite far in the wrong direction!

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 45):
I think FRA is approaching LHR in importance, AMS has some potential also

I think you are underplaying Amsterdam somewhat!
 
ScottishDavie
Posts: 177
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:48 pm

RE: Why Is Heathrow So Important?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:06 pm

Quoting mainMAN (Reply 44):
I certainly wouldn't describe London as the only true international city in the UK.

Maybe not but it's the only UK city I know where I actually feel foreign.

The whole London airport situation is insane. LHR operates dangerously close to capacity for much of the time - if anything, however minor, falls down the result will inevitably be chaos. LGW does amazing things with its single runway but it's still only a single runway. STN is miles out and badly overcrowded. LTN is simply unspeakable. LCY can have its moments but it still by far the best way to go if London itself is your destination.

I see Boris Island is being talked about again:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...he-way-for-new-London-airport.html

Wonder if I'll live long enough to see it happen?
 
lhr380
Posts: 2453
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:39 pm

RE: Why Is Heathrow So Important?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:16 pm

With Boris island, your going to Get a massive population shift, and untold disruption as new transport links will have to be created. Major and minor roads, train and tube? lines, and everything else a airport needs. A hell of a lot of money, just because they do not want to build one extra runway and terminal at LHR!!!
(The views on this site are my own and no one elses)
 
LGWflyer
Posts: 2233
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:38 pm

RE: Why Is Heathrow So Important?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:57 pm

Quoting lhr380 (Reply 49):
With Boris island, your going to Get a massive population shift, and untold disruption as new transport links will have to be created. Major and minor roads, train and tube? lines, and everything else a airport needs. A hell of a lot of money, just because they do not want to build one extra runway and terminal at LHR!!!

100% agree! It will be a huge waste amount of money (which we don't have), and I mean if they are so desperate for this airport to happen just add more runways to the 4 main London airports we already have!!! Imagine having 5 major airports (maybe even 6 if Southend grows in the future) just for London.
3 words... I Love Aviation!!!

Who is online