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Airlines Who Want To Be In An Alliance, But Can't

Fri Jan 20, 2012 12:34 pm

After reading a few threads lately on Alliances, the latest one being the end of the code share between Continental and Virgin, I was wondering if there are airlines NOT in an Alliance and can't get into one for various reasons. Are their any that have basically been shut out of the 3 major Alliances but are trying very hard to enter one?
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lhr380
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RE: Airlines Who Want To Be In An Alliance, But Can't

Fri Jan 20, 2012 12:35 pm

Air India is the first that comes to mind!!
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tcasalert
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RE: Airlines Who Want To Be In An Alliance, But Can't

Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:19 pm

The thing is, if those airlines (such as AI) wanted to be in an alliance, surely they should do as others have done and find other airlines fitting their network, and set something up together. It's exactly how the big 3 were founded (*A, OW, ST).

In my mind there are enough airlines struggling to find alliances that they would be able to form another major alliance between them.

Obviously this is just a pipe dream and commercially there would have to be justification, but I don't see how with a bit of effort it couldn't be done.
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flyingalex
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RE: Airlines Who Want To Be In An Alliance, But Can't

Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:30 pm

El Al, for geopolitical reasons.
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RE: Airlines Who Want To Be In An Alliance, But Can't

Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:28 pm

Quoting TCASAlert (Reply 2):
In my mind there are enough airlines struggling to find alliances that they would be able to form another major alliance between them.

Think about the type of airline that might want to be in an airline but can't. It's probably because none of the alliances feel they are a proper fit, or perhaps the desirous airline is just a lousy airline. If those airlines banded together to create their own alliance, do you not think they might create the redheaded stepchild of alliances in the process? What would make a passenger want to fly them? And where would they find a North American or European partner? All of the airlines in those regions who aren't part of an alliance probably don't want to be.
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apjung
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RE: Airlines Who Want To Be In An Alliance, But Can't

Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:03 pm

What's keeping *A from accepting EVA Air's request to join?
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RE: Airlines Who Want To Be In An Alliance, But Can't

Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:10 pm

Quoting apjung (Reply 5):
What's keeping *A from accepting EVA Air's request to join?

I'm thinking Air China.
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ryu2
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RE: Airlines Who Want To Be In An Alliance, But Can't

Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:14 pm

Maybe due to sanctions: Iran Air, Air Koryo...
 
ryu2
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RE: Airlines Who Want To Be In An Alliance, But Can't

Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:15 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 6):
I'm thinking Air China.

Why? There's no political reason these days for that; there are direct flights between Mainland China and Taiwan now.

Also Skyteam has both China Airlines and China Southern, China Eastern already...

[Edited 2012-01-20 12:20:15]
 
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RE: Airlines Who Want To Be In An Alliance, But Can't

Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:19 pm

Quoting ryu2 (Reply 8):
Why? There's no political reason these days for that; there are direct flights between Mainland China and Taiwan now.

Of course there are, but there is still the political posturing and the fear of the founding Star Carriers (like UA, LH and AC) of not getting more mainland frequencies.
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kiwiandrew

RE: Airlines Who Want To Be In An Alliance, But Can't

Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:32 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 6):
Quoting apjung (Reply 5):
What's keeping *A from accepting EVA Air's request to join?


I'm thinking Air China.

Air China are currently a codeshare partner of BR, and have been rumoured to be their future sponsor for *A membership. I don't think anyone is keeping *A from accepting them, I think that they are currently being examined behind the scenes and at some point in 2012 an announcement will likely be made that they have been accepted as a future member of *A.

http://www.centreforaviation.com/ana...-market-with-addition-of-eva-64664

...Star Alliance is planning a key step forward in boosting its presence in the fast-growing North Asian aviation market by adding EVA Airways, Taiwan's second largest carrier. EVA will be mentored by Air China, which currently is the only Star member in greater China although Shenzhen Airlines is also now in the process of joining the alliance.

...



Separately from the BR/*A question, but still on the main topic of this thread, I think another point to bear in mind is that alliance membership in itself is not a panacea for a sick airline. Look at MX, it was a member of first A* and then OW, and it still ended up bust.
 
articulatexpat
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RE: Airlines Who Want To Be In An Alliance, But Can't

Sat Jan 21, 2012 3:12 am

Didn't El Al try to set up an alliance? The WE Alliance, or something like that? If I remember, this was to include a few carriers based in Eastern Europe and the Caucasus. That plan apparently fizzled out. But really, how many airlines with networks extensive enough to establish an alliance are there?

The Virgins come to mind first. They always seem to be in a state of flux, though, which could cripple any such proposal. Either there's SRB's public petulance, the SQ stake, the branding consolidation in Australia, the closure of the one in Nigeria, the ongoing accusations of illegal maneuvering in the US... closer cooperation would make sense on the face of it, but it would be like organizing a group wedding among schizophrenic patients in a mental hospital.

Without them, how many reasonably good airlines does that leave? Some, like Alaska and Emirates, probably aren't interested in alliance membership. LCCs probably aren't keen to add administrative costs that will make their operations more expensive.

You'd need airlines that fly transcontinental routes, because a patchwork of regional carriers wouldn't provide enough connectivity to attract passengers.

Really, what's left?
 
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RE: Airlines Who Want To Be In An Alliance, But Can't

Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:14 am

I think it really boils down to competition. An existing airline wouldn't want a close rival in.

What about airlines that are in an alliance but seem to hate it miserably a la SQ? lol
 
UM78
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RE: Airlines Who Want To Be In An Alliance, But Can't

Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:41 am

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 3):

El AL , Sorry but is not interest at all in any Alliance.
 
wdleiser
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RE: Airlines Who Want To Be In An Alliance, But Can't

Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:52 am

Quoting UM78 (Reply 13):

nor do I really think there is any interest to have El Al in any alliance
 
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RE: Airlines Who Want To Be In An Alliance, But Can't

Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:29 am

Quoting infinit (Reply 12):
What about airlines that are in an alliance but seem to hate it miserably a la SQ? lol

Why does SQ hate to be part of star?
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PezySPU
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RE: Airlines Who Want To Be In An Alliance, But Can't

Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:20 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 15):
Quoting infinit (Reply 12):
What about airlines that are in an alliance but seem to hate it miserably a la SQ? lol

Why does SQ hate to be part of star?

Yeah, could you elaborate on that? I'd say they couldn't care less about *A, but not that they hate *A.
 
Bobloblaw
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RE: Airlines Who Want To Be In An Alliance, But Can't

Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:12 pm

EL AL and possibly airlines from Taiwan.

EL AL even without political implications, wouldnt be a great alliance member unless they had a at least some type of connecting hub at TLV.
 
blink182
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RE: Airlines Who Want To Be In An Alliance, But Can't

Sat Jan 21, 2012 3:02 pm

Quoting BobLoblaw (Reply 17):

EL AL even without political implications, wouldnt be a great alliance member unless they had a at least some type of connecting hub at TLV.

Exactly, and the problem is that they can't operate on the Sabbath, and the airspace restrictions on flights in/out of TLV prohibit the hub's would be strength as a connector. If these two restrictions do not exist, there's a great chance that TLV could be a DOH, AUH, or DXB. However, as is, TLV is extremely well covered by the european carriers and some of the US carriers. I really don't see what LY could bring to an alliance, and apparently, neither do the alliances. My hunch though is that if LY had to go to an alliance, it would be oneworld or Star if only because Egypt and Jordan have diplomatic relations with Israel.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 15):
Why does SQ hate to be part of star?

TG and SQ are big competitors, and I'm not sure that Star has done much to make them cooperate more. I am also fairly certain that SQ doesn't participate in all of Star's programs or honor Star Gold from other carriers, as SQ feels that its own brand is diluted. Case in point, whereas First Class upgrades on many Star airlines are often granted on basis of Star Gold status, I think SQ seldom, if ever, upgrades pax to First, much less those who earned the bulk of their status on other airlines.
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RE: Airlines Who Want To Be In An Alliance, But Can't

Sat Jan 21, 2012 3:09 pm

I think actually having El Al in either Star or Sky would in able the alliance to have an almost exclusive rein on a extremely rich country with a airport that handles almost 1.5 percent of the population.
 
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RE: Airlines Who Want To Be In An Alliance, But Can't

Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:00 pm

Quoting BobLoblaw (Reply 17):
possibly airlines from Taiwan.

Well, CI is in SkyTeam and they seem to be fine coexisting with CZ and MU and (in the future) MF.

I'm inclined to add PR into this mix, but they publicly declared that they want to be invited into an alliance. Still very disappointed though that they prefer oneworld: hopefully they'll consider SkyTeam or Star instead.
 
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RE: Airlines Who Want To Be In An Alliance, But Can't

Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:08 pm

It's odd, but over the years "Alliances" have become brands themselves. They are defined by their sum of all their members, the benefits beyond just seamless connectivity and reciprocal recgognition of status (to a degree) and somewhat well branded: name, identity, websites and advertising. If I was CEO of a decent sized airline that was well known for a good flying experience, I would "think" I'd want that recognition, being seen with certain company ...and yes, feeds that could help. I think of Ethiopian and what joining Star must have done for their reputation.

But I do think of how airlines who would want that but would be shut out by a competitor. El Al is interesting - I never thought about them. Also, if Singapore, Thai, Swiss, British, Cathay- then why not Emirates or Virgin? Why do they resist? If EK was to join Star and gain the massive connectivity throughout North America with both UA and US, I just don't know why they wouldn't want that and that Star wouldn't just die to have their logo on the placards and ads.

Last year I flew CSA and WOW, I was very impressed by that smallish regional carrier. I know they are in an alliance but are their others like them up for grabs? Could Azul be one soon? Is there a #2 carrier in France?
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flyingalex
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RE: Airlines Who Want To Be In An Alliance, But Can't

Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:26 pm

Quoting blink182 (Reply 18):
TG and SQ are big competitors, and I'm not sure that Star has done much to make them cooperate more. I am also fairly certain that SQ doesn't participate in all of Star's programs or honor Star Gold from other carriers, as SQ feels that its own brand is diluted.

This is not the case, or at least has not been the case when I have flown SQ (I used to hold bmi Star Gold status and currently have LH*G). When I fly SQ, I get all the benefits I get at any other airline - priority check-in, lounge access, priority boarding, the works. The only thing SQ does differently is that they have a separate, inferior lounge for KrisFlyer Gold members (and Star Golds) flying in Economy, whereas their Business Class and First Class lounges are reserved for those actually ticketed in those cabins.

The only people who get access to the Business or First lounges with an Economy ticket are SQ PPS Club members and PPS Club Solitaire members. This sub-programme of KrisFlyer tracks your eligible Premium Cabin spend with SQ in a given year (S$25K in one year for PPS, $250K within five years for PPS Solitaire).

Quoting blink182 (Reply 18):
Case in point, whereas First Class upgrades on many Star airlines are often granted on basis of Star Gold status, I think SQ seldom, if ever, upgrades pax to First, much less those who earned the bulk of their status on other airlines.

You need to differentiate between the American model of courtesy upgrades and operationally necessary upgrades (op-ups).

Any airline will op-up passengers when necessary, and will show a preference for their own FFP members. The American carriers go a step further and upgrade passengers with status in their own FFP as a matter of course, if space is available (but only on domestic routes). Internationally, upgrades to First Class (or even Business Class) happen only if they are absolutely necessary, or when they are paid for in some way (cash, miles, FFP upgrade vouchers, whatever).

SQ is very good at getting people to actually pay for its premium cabins, which is why they rarely have to op-up people. When they do, they'll be looking for Solitaires and PPS Club members first, just like LH upgrades Hon Circle members, Senators and Frequent Travellers from its own Miles&More programme before upgrading a Star Gold from another carrier.

It just makes good business sense to take care of your own first.
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blink182
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RE: Airlines Who Want To Be In An Alliance, But Can't

Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:47 pm

Flyingalex,

Thanks for the corrections and clarifications   
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rushed
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RE: Airlines Who Want To Be In An Alliance, But Can't

Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:48 pm

I would think that Garuda would be chomping at the bit to get into an alliance given thier whole let's try and update our image to a professional, safe, comfortable airline etc... Thier new business product looks good but who's going to fly it given thier safety history etc. If they were in an alliance then maybe it would sway some confidence to get more premium bums on seats. The next question is which alliance would really want thier name attached to them until they have proved themselves to be safe?
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blink182
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RE: Airlines Who Want To Be In An Alliance, But Can't

Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:53 pm

Quoting rushed (Reply 24):
I would think that Garuda would be chomping at the bit to get into an alliance given thier whole let's try and update our image to a professional, safe, comfortable airline etc...

Garuda is listed as a future member of SkyTeam, which lists Garuda as possibly joining at some point this year.
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rushed
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RE: Airlines Who Want To Be In An Alliance, But Can't

Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:01 pm

Quoting blink182 (Reply 25):


Quoting rushed (Reply 24):
I would think that Garuda would be chomping at the bit to get into an alliance given thier whole let's try and update our image to a professional, safe, comfortable airline etc...

Garuda is listed as a future member of SkyTeam, which lists Garuda as possibly joining at some point this year.



Oh ok didn't know that - probably a good fit. What are others thoughts in sky team? Living in Australia don't have much to do with them but there are some interesting members under that hat. Definately have China covered tho!
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RE: Airlines Who Want To Be In An Alliance, But Can't

Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:31 pm

Quoting blink182 (Reply 25):
Garuda is listed as a future member of SkyTeam, which lists Garuda as possibly joining at some point this year.

They're scheduled to enter Skyteam in December 2012.

BTW I'm surprised nobody mentioned Jet Airways. They probably want to be in Star, but politics aren't favorable for this.
 
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RE: Airlines Who Want To Be In An Alliance, But Can't

Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:25 pm

Quoting rushed (Reply 26):
probably a good fit.

Indeed, a perfect fit for ScaryTeam.

They certainly wouldn't be the first carrier in the alliance to have had significant safety issues.
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kiwiandrew

RE: Airlines Who Want To Be In An Alliance, But Can't

Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:31 pm

Quoting BobLoblaw (Reply 17):
EL AL and possibly airlines from Taiwan.

CI is in Skyteam , and BR is strongly rumoured to be joining *A.
 
rushed
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RE: Airlines Who Want To Be In An Alliance, But Can't

Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:43 pm

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 28):

Quoting rushed (Reply 26):
probably a good fit.

Indeed, a perfect fit for ScaryTeam.

They certainly wouldn't be the first carrier in the alliance to have had significant safety issues.

Lol - scaryteam... Love it
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irshava
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RE: Airlines Who Want To Be In An Alliance, But Can't

Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:58 pm

Aerosvit? I heard they wanted to join the alliance that was proposed by El Al... what happened to that?
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jasoncrh
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RE: Airlines Who Want To Be In An Alliance, But Can't

Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:26 am

the alliance members in Star/Oneworld/skyteam have NO DESIRE to have EK/QR/EY in thier alliances. Why? because those middle east airlines are in the business of sucking away the best customers from LH/BA/AF - those long haul high yield customers traveling from Europe to Asia and as well as from North America to Middle East/Africa/India. The service obviously is excellent, but these middle east carriers make a living off of taking business away from LH/BA/AF, etc with their state subsidized lower fares they offer passengers. current members of star/oneworld/etc would get nothing but more revenue dilution from bringing these airline into their respective alliances. no way they'll ever let them in.

Quoting VC10er (Reply 21):
But I do think of how airlines who would want that but would be shut out by a competitor. El Al is interesting - I never thought about them. Also, if Singapore, Thai, Swiss, British, Cathay- then why not Emirates or Virgin? Why do they resist? If EK was to join Star and gain the massive connectivity throughout North America with both UA and US, I just don't know why they wouldn't want that and that Star wouldn't just die to have their logo on the placards and ads.
 
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RE: Airlines Who Want To Be In An Alliance, But Can't

Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:26 am

Quoting JasonCRH (Reply 32):

Enlightening indeed! I believe I can earn and redeem on EK from some sort of agreement with UA or MileagePlus - right?
I really meant however that Star Alliance could further enhance their brand with either Emirates or Ethiad.

However for Star Alliance I worry most for their TAM loss and no way to do anything other than drop people off at major cities in Brazil and beyond. Where is Azul in the Alliance game? I would say a 787 in Azul livery would be beautiful.

I know Garuda has safety issues via the grapevine and no Alliance would accept having a member with a screw loose. I guess they must have cleaned up their act. However I love our redesign of our original from 3 decades ago...even if I do say so myself. But the credit goes to our Beijing office.
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flyingalex
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RE: Airlines Who Want To Be In An Alliance, But Can't

Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:23 am

Quoting VC10er (Reply 33):
Enlightening indeed! I believe I can earn and redeem on EK from some sort of agreement with UA or MileagePlus - right?
Quoting VC10er (Reply 33):
I know Garuda has safety issues via the grapevine and no Alliance would accept having a member with a screw loose. I guess they must have cleaned up their act.

As I was saying earlier, SkyTeam has a few members whose safety records were(are?) less than stellar: KE, CI, MU and AF come to mind. Garuda is par for the course...
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RE: Airlines Who Want To Be In An Alliance, But Can't

Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:57 am

Quoting JasonCRH (Reply 32):
the alliance members in Star/Oneworld/skyteam have NO DESIRE to have EK/QR/EY in thier alliances.

More to the point, EK has no desire or need to enter an alliance - and Tim Clark has succinctly said so.
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jasoncrh
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RE: Airlines Who Want To Be In An Alliance, But Can't

Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:12 pm

Again, Star Alliance has no interest in doing this. Star is made up of executives from their member airlines. These people are very confident in their brand already and have no interest in seeing Emirates sully it.

Pearson also succinctly described the situation - the head of Emirates, likewise, doesnt want to be in an alliance. Through interline agreements, etc, they get all the feed they need from offline stations. They're doing just fine as is.

Quoting VC10er (Reply 33):
I really meant however that Star Alliance could further enhance their brand with either Emirates or Ethiad.
 
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RE: Airlines Who Want To Be In An Alliance, But Can't

Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:31 pm

What would be interesting to see is an alliance of LCC's around the world. I know it will not happen, but it sure would make TATL LCC flying more feasible.
 
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RE: Airlines Who Want To Be In An Alliance, But Can't

Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:26 pm

Quoting LJ (Reply 27):
BTW I'm surprised nobody mentioned Jet Airways. They probably want to be in Star, but politics aren't favorable for this.

9W mgmt has long been hesitant about joining any alliance. From what I recall, their CEO has gone on record that they are fine on their own and also compared their situation to EKs!

I think it's *A that wants 9W to join in along with AI, but 9W itself probably is not in a tearing hurry.

Quite stupid on the part of 9W IMO.
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RE: Airlines Who Want To Be In An Alliance, But Can't

Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:20 pm

Quoting lhr380 (Reply 1):
Air India is the first that comes to mind!!

I think you will see a loose 4th alliance form that includes carriers like Aer Lingus, Aerosvit, Emirates, Virgin, JetBlue, and one of the Indian airlines.
 
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RE: Airlines Who Want To Be In An Alliance, But Can't

Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:40 pm

Quoting VC10er (Reply 21):
If EK was to join Star and gain the massive connectivity throughout North America with both UA and US, I just don't know why they wouldn't want that

Because they can fill their flights at higher yield without having to interline with other carriers. Why share the revenue with another carrier and pay all the costs of alliance membership when you can carry it online and keep all the revenue yourself? EK's CEO has said many times that they have absolutely no interest in alliance membership. EK's route network makes alliance membeship unnecessary. Where they want to interline they can do it more cheaply with targeted codeshare and interline agreements. They have dozens of interline agreements but a much higher percentage of EK's traffic is carried totally online than most other major airlines.

[Edited 2012-01-23 15:41:30]
 
ytz
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RE: Airlines Who Want To Be In An Alliance, But Can't

Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:43 pm

Quoting Nimish (Reply 38):
Quite stupid on the part of 9W IMO.

Agreed. For all of AI's issues, if they do manage to get into an alliance, it would be huge for them. The feed into DEL would be tremendous and of higher value.

Jet would then face some serious competition from AI.

Personally, I'd like to see 9W over AI in Star Alliance. That's simply because I have to fly Star Alliance because of AC and would prefer 9W on the other end to AI. That said, all the alliances sorely need a partner in India.
 
ytz
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RE: Airlines Who Want To Be In An Alliance, But Can't

Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:53 pm

I find it odd that some alliance carriers even co-operate with the likes of EK, EY and QR (with interline and codeshare agreements). To me, that would seem to run against their own long term interests, and definitely those of their alliance partners. Why provide feed to these carriers? I'm really surprised that the alliances haven't made it a rule for their members to avoid co-operation with the Gulf 3.
 
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RE: Airlines Who Want To Be In An Alliance, But Can't

Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:06 pm

Quoting LJ (Reply 27):
BTW I'm surprised nobody mentioned Jet Airways. They probably want to be in Star, but politics aren't favorable for this.

9W and *A would be a good fit. However, the whole AI mess is excluding them.

Quoting ytz (Reply 41):
all the alliances sorely need a partner in India.

This I agree with. Only OW now has IT. (For how long?) So of all the alliances, Skyteam should be scrambling for a partner.

Quoting JasonCRH (Reply 32):
the alliance members in Star/Oneworld/skyteam have NO DESIRE to have EK/QR/EY in thier alliances.

No desire for a partner in one of the faster growing air travel markets?!?
Now, *A has TK. If they add 9W, then that one alliance has no need of EK/QR/EY.

However, of all the alliances, Skyteam could use another mid-east partner. Saudia will have... 'customer acceptance issues among female passengers.' Considering the number of execs who travel with their spouses that I know, there will be resistance to building up miles if Saudia is the required partner.

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 35):
More to the point, EK has no desire or need to enter an alliance - and Tim Clark has succinctly said so.

I agree with this. EK has the 'economy of scale' to continue their current strategy.

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ytz
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RE: Airlines Who Want To Be In An Alliance, But Can't

Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:02 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 43):
Now, *A has TK. If they add 9W, then that one alliance has no need of EK/QR/EY.

Exactly. TK has the potential to *A's EK/EY/QR.

I would suggest that they are on par with the Gulf 3 when it comes to connecting North America with the Middle East and South Asia with solid schedules, good fares and an excellent product. The only problem is that they don't serve enough destinations in India (just BOM and DEL). At a minimum, they should also be serving BLR, MAA and CCU.