Nomik
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AF447:Families Want Access To Recorders

Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:29 pm

"LCI" reports that victims' families demand full and unfettered access to the flight and voice recorders as part of their case for damages.
They are angry and find it suspect that they have denied for so long.
http://lci.tf1.fr/filnews/france/cra...ces-aux-boites-noires-6944963.html
 
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garpd
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RE: AF447:Families Want Access To Recorders

Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:38 pm

It's not the first time a crash involving an AF plane has had a refusal of release of the black boxes.
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Nomik
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RE: AF447:Families Want Access To Recorders

Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:16 pm

Indeed.
When will the BEA's investigation be finally completed?
I can not fathom what more there is to add or do?
 
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Revelation
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RE: AF447:Families Want Access To Recorders

Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:03 pm

Quoting Nomik (Reply 2):
When will the BEA's investigation be finally completed?

There are a lot of "i"'s to dot and "t"'s to cross, as we say in US English.

Investigation reports never come out all that fast in any case.

I imagine the holdups are around what the recommendations should be, and how they should be stated.

I suppose they will not release the raw data because they want to have the first say on how they should be interpreted.
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canoecarrier
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RE: AF447:Families Want Access To Recorders

Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:18 pm

Quoting Nomik (Reply 2):
When will the BEA's investigation be finally completed?
I can not fathom what more there is to add or do?

Most recently, BEA announced that they would form a "Human Factors" working group, made up of specialists in cognitive sciences, ergonomics and psychology to examine all aspects linked to man-machine interactions and to the pilots' actions in the last few minutes of the flight. They said that the work this group was to perform would be done by the end of December, 2011 and included in the Final Report.

BEA has indicated that the Final Report on the incident would be released in the first half of 2012.

http://www.bea.aero/en/enquetes/flight.af.447/flight.af.447.php

Quoting garpd (Reply 1):
It's not the first time a crash involving an AF plane has had a refusal of release of the black boxes.

They've released a partial transcript already and in my opinion BEA has done a great job informing the public of the status of the investigation and any revelations that have resulted to date. I see no reason why BEA should release the CVR/FDR, although through litigation they may be forced too.

This is a summary of that transcript:
http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol....int.enquete.af447.27mai2011.en.pdf
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Nomik
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RE: AF447:Families Want Access To Recorders

Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:04 pm

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 4):
"Human Factors"

Do you mean improved CRM?
 
canoecarrier
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RE: AF447:Families Want Access To Recorders

Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:33 am

Quoting Nomik (Reply 5):
Do you mean improved CRM?

My post was a direct quote from BEA. You can infer all you want from the links I included above. As I said, BEA has acted as a very professional accident investigation organization since the start of this in '09. Whether or not the CVR/FDR is released to the public I have no reason to believe that they've acted in anything less than a professional manor.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
ajhYXE
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RE: AF447:Families Want Access To Recorders

Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:54 am

Quoting Nomik (Reply 5):
Do you mean improved CRM?

I think it has more to do with cockpit design than anything. On AF447 the pilots did not understand why the aircraft was moving the way it was. It is likely that confusion with instruments contributed significantly to this accident (as did poor CRM). Some environmental changes that affect the human brain's natural (sub-conscious) interaction with the cockpit could actually make a difference (consider "wheels" on landing gear levers).
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captainmeeerkat
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RE: AF447:Families Want Access To Recorders

Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:19 am

Quoting ajhYXE (Reply 7):
the pilots did not understand

I think this statement says it all. Man-machine interaction only works when one understands firstly the capabilities and specifications of the machine and secondly, who has final authority.

The BEA should release all transcripts and data info in the interests of openess and clarity, otherwise the conspiracy theory brigade will come a-runnin' with their charges. There is nothing to be lost in letting people see for themselves the evidence. In academia for example, conclusions without full disclosure of the evidence would merit you a slap on the head and dismissal.

[Edited 2012-01-21 00:30:57]
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Mir
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RE: AF447:Families Want Access To Recorders

Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:29 am

Quoting Nomik (Thread starter):
find it suspect that they have denied for so long.

Why should they have access to it in the first place? They'll get the transcripts, same as everyone else, as soon as the investigation is done (and not before - the last thing we need is a case going to court based on an incomplete investigation).

The actual recordings themselves should not be released - no good can come of that.

-Mir
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MD11Engineer
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RE: AF447:Families Want Access To Recorders

Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:25 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 9):
The actual recordings themselves should not be released - no good can come of that.

-Mir

I´m quite sure that very soon after the families/lawyers have them, they´ll be released on Youtube for every ogre/ghoul to see.

Jan
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Nomik
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RE: AF447:Families Want Access To Recorders

Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:40 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 10):
they´ll be released on Youtube for every ogre/ghoul to see.

Not sure if French privacy laws permit that.
I have never heard a YouTube recording from the BEA.
 
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RE: AF447:Families Want Access To Recorders

Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:39 am

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 6):
My post was a direct quote from BEA. You can infer all you want from the links I included above.

   All we can tell from that is that they're not ignoring the human factors relevant to the accident.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: AF447:Families Want Access To Recorders

Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:46 pm

Quoting Nomik (Reply 11):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 10):
they´ll be released on Youtube for every ogre/ghoul to see.

Not sure if French privacy laws permit that.
I have never heard a YouTube recording from the BEA.

Privacy laws or not, it just takes one person to post them on the net and they´ll be there forever.

Jan
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ltbewr
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RE: AF447:Families Want Access To Recorders

Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:02 pm

This is a good example several of the growing conflicts in modern society.

One is privacy rights vs. freedom of information access/transparency. I am quite sure French law and perhaps EC agreements may limit release of the full tapes for sound reasons to protect the privacy of someone going to their death. Then there is that a release or a premature one before all of the potential investigation is complete may compromise it.

Second is the motivations of the various people who want this access. Many probably want to interpret the recordings in their own way either to absolve that the pilots made a mistake or that they had a mechanical/electrical problem so can absolve them of their actions. Many I bet are also wanting sufficient information to consider lawsuits, especially if there was a failure of some critical component made in the USA so can sue 'deep pockets' corporations there.

Third is the growing negative and suspicious attitudes toward governments and agencies, including investigative agencies. I would trust the integrity of the French air crash investigative agencies as equal to the USA's NTSB as well as those of others countries. Problem is that too many see 'conspiracies'. Some fear that the tapes could be edited or altered to limit financial liability and a hit on national pride as to French based AF, Airbus or component makers and to put the blame mainly in the pilots as 'human error'.

Fourth is the time, isolated place and lack of evidence as to how this crash occurred. As air crashes have become more rare and when one occurs as with AF447 with all it's unknowns, many are suspicious as to how it could have happened, so they want access to what may be the only evidence that is accessable.

Even in the USA, we have seen the release of transcripts and even audio of CVR's after the end of the official investigation of a crash. I am quite sure a number of people here have read the transcirpts of several crashes, for example where the deadheading pilots of a regional jet flew too high, damaged the engines, their horrilble dive to their deaths recored and becoming available. For some it is just natural curousity, for others voyerism and that is a balance that is difficult to deal with.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: AF447:Families Want Access To Recorders

Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:07 am

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 8):
The BEA should release all transcripts and data info in the interests of openess and clarity, otherwise the conspiracy theory brigade will come a-runnin' with their charges.

The conspiracy theory brigade will come running anyway. One of the characteristics of conspiracy theorists is that no evidence is ever sufficient to change their mind. They will just extra those portions of the new evidence that support their views and ignore/deny/denigrate anything that conflicts.

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 8):
There is nothing to be lost in letting people see for themselves the evidence.

"The evidence" are those portions of CVR and FDR that are relevant to the crash. That's what the investigators have released. What's to be lost from releasing the *non* relevant portions, which is what's being asked for here, is the integrity of the investigation.

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 8):
In academia for example, conclusions without full disclosure of the evidence would merit you a slap on the head and dismissal.

This is an accident investigation, not a peer reviewed paper. The evidence is disclosed. The parts the vultures want, like non-pertinent cockpit conversation, has nothing to do with the investigation conclusions.

Tom.

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