Nomik
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Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:00 am

AF's Lost Aura

Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:34 pm

In past months,AF has axed so many routes and the savage cull is set to continue.
Beyond the economics,AF reminds me a badly injured former 70s and 80s thoroughbred that is longing to be put out of its misery.
Has it asked itself:Who am I and what is my raison d'être?
It needs someone who can really spring it back to life to rejoin genuine Premier League and not languish with a tarnished image of an has-been.
AF is at its crossroads and metaphysical twilight,a cross between AA and SR.
I want a flag-carrier to reflect a nation's achievements,contribution and pride.
 
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shamrock604
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RE: AF's Lost Aura

Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:05 pm

The only place it is losing it's aura is here on a.net, and I'm sorry, I dont mean to be rude, but you are perhaps the major reason why.

Every AF thread here recently has been started by you, or been flamed by you. I can count 5 threads now in just the top 15 which you have opened.

The General public are not really aware of what is going on outside France. It's business as usual therefore to most AF customers.

There is a plan in place - it obviously involves cutting routes that just dont work. Far from being a negative, it is a positive. It will stem the bleeding and position the airline on a more sound footing.

It is acknowledged that the premium product has to improve.
It is acknowledged that the medium haul cost base needs to come down for that sector to at least break even.

It needs to be acknowledged that AF's ground processes are generally poor and overly bureaucratic, and are delivered by staff who are simply not cut out to be in customer pleasing roles.

I'd suggest if you really wish to see AF rise again, you initiate change from within on customer service issues and staff attitude, and not slate the airline on a.net at every opportunity.

[Edited 2012-01-20 15:07:11]
 
Viscount724
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RE: AF's Lost Aura

Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:17 pm

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 1):
The General public are not really aware of what is going on outside France. It's business as usual therefore to most AF customers.

Exactly. 99% of people outside Switzerland also have no idea that LX is a different carrier than the bankrupt and defunct Swissair, and in fact often still call LX Swissair.
 
B738FlyUIA
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RE: AF's Lost Aura

Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:23 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 2):
Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 1):
The General public are not really aware of what is going on outside France. It's business as usual therefore to most AF customers.

Exactly. 99% of people outside Switzerland also have no idea that LX is a different carrier than the bankrupt and defunct Swissair, and in fact often still call LX Swissair.

You have been a little ahead of me Visount724 with your explanation but I would have stated this exactly like you!!! I know still many people that call "swiss"Swissair!!!
 
Nomik
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RE: AF's Lost Aura

Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:26 pm

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 1):
I'd suggest if you really wish to see AF rise again, you initiate change from within on customer service issues and staff attitude, and not slate the airline on a.net at every opportunity.

I have ever since AF cancelled "Status Miles" with AmEx.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/CONTRE...UT-AMEX-AIR-FRANCE/196230390429006

[Edited 2012-01-20 15:27:03]

[Edited 2012-01-20 15:27:46]
 
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shamrock604
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RE: AF's Lost Aura

Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:56 pm

Quoting Nomik (Reply 4):
I have ever since AF cancelled "Status Miles" with AmEx.

So, let me understand this. Your anger against AF stems from the fact that your "status mile" of choice is no longer offered?

Aerlingus scrapped their entire FFP a few years ago. Was I pissed? Sure. Did I understand why they had to do it? Absolutely.
 
Nomik
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RE: AF's Lost Aura

Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:57 am

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 5):
Aerlingus scrapped their entire FFP

I am sure this will be the trend for others.
Interesting.
 
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shamrock604
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RE: AF's Lost Aura

Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:04 am

Quoting Nomik (Reply 6):

They have since re-introduced an FFP, so I would not assume that Flying blue will go.

AF need to run short haul like "la navette", they should also introduce BOB catering, which would be preferable to the awful free biscuit. I would value some high quality food for purchase as a passenger. The "free" service is bullshit, because it's crap.

They need to introduce a one way fare structure and take on the low costs, while maintaining a quality feel. It does work once you try to maintain yields and not strictly chase volume.
 
BMI727
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RE: AF's Lost Aura

Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:15 am

Quoting Nomik (Thread starter):
I want a flag-carrier to reflect a nation's achievements,contribution and pride.

Having a flag carrier that is something other than a business, like a political or social tool, vanity project, etc. is exactly part of why Air France got to where they are at the moment. Airlines and countries cannot be doing that anymore. The airlines aren't competitive and the nations can't afford it.

Plenty of other countries and airlines have gone through something similar and been better off for it. Sure some people's pride will likely get dinged in the process, but the result will be a more competitive and profitable airline.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
avek00
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RE: AF's Lost Aura

Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:55 am

Right now, the Euro legacies are at about the same point in the deregulation cycle that US carriers went through from the late 1990s through 2005.
Live life to the fullest.
 
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shamrock604
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RE: AF's Lost Aura

Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:25 am

Quoting avek00 (Reply 9):
Right now, the Euro legacies are at about the same point in the deregulation cycle that US carriers went through from the late 1990s through 2005.

Indeed, except perhaps for Aer Lingus, British Airways and Iberia, who were first to experience the onslaught of the Low Cost carriers. I'd suggest that EI's model, of lower cost short haul feeding into long haul is where it is going to be at in the medium term. (Basically, where most US legacy carriers are at now)
 
mikey72
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RE: AF's Lost Aura

Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:10 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
Having a flag carrier that is something other than a business, like a political or social tool, vanity project, etc. is exactly part of why Air France got to where they are at the moment
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
Plenty of other countries and airlines have gone through something similar and been better off for it. Sure some people's pride will likely get dinged in the process, but the result will be a more competitive and profitable airline.

   Bang on. They'll be fine. As if there would ever not be an AF ! The French would tear up every rule in the EU book before that happened.

Quoting avek00 (Reply 9):
Right now, the Euro legacies are at about the same point in the deregulation cycle that US carriers went through from the late 1990s through 2005.

I think BA are way way ahead of the game compared to the others. They've simply had to be.

AF and LH have been living in cloud cuckoo land compared to BA.

Up until now that is....time to wake up and smell the low-cost middle easten coffee i'm afraid !!

  
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
Nomik
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RE: AF's Lost Aura

Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:43 am

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 7):
BOB catering

What is BOB?
Bring Own Beverage?
 
santos
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RE: AF's Lost Aura

Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:46 am

Quoting Nomik (Reply 12):
What is BOB?

Buy On Board
 
icarus75
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RE: AF's Lost Aura

Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:03 am

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 1):
The only place it is losing it's aura is here on a.net

I think you're right!
Since beginning of January, I fly to Manchester every monday morning and back to Paris every friday evening.
On monday, terminal E is packed with all the people in trnsit, coming from AF long haul to some places in Europe.
On friday evening, the flight is full of people connecting on the night bank (China, South America....)

For sure, it does not mean hat all this short flights are profitable. But seeing all the non french people flying with AF, I'm not sure this airline has lost his aura.

Quoting Nomik (Reply 4):
I have ever since AF cancelled "Status Miles" with AmEx.

I'm in Flying Blue and I have an Amex oo. Yes I've been a litle pissed off when I've seen this change.
But in these days of tough competition between airlines, I think it's difficult to keep a good balance between benefits for customers (miles & status) and the costs involved for he company.

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 7):
They need to introduce a one way fare structure and take on the low costs, while maintaining a quality feel. It does work once you try to maintain yields and not strictly chase volume.

One way fare structure would be a real improvement for sure!
Flying is amazing!
 
beakerltn
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RE: AF's Lost Aura

Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:02 pm

Quoting Icarus75 (Reply 14):
On monday, terminal E is packed with all the people in trnsit, coming from AF long haul to some places in Europe.
On friday evening, the flight is full of people connecting on the night bank (China, South America....)

For sure, it does not mean hat all this short flights are profitable. But seeing all the non french people flying with AF, I'm not sure this airline has lost his aura.

I was one of those 'non french' travelling through Terminal E a while back. I did it not because of the aura or the product, but because their J class was friggin' cheap.

(and the CDG>LHR breakfast was diabolical.. carrot sticks with cream cheese. - I just thought it was a French thing!)
300/319/320/321/330/732/733/734/73G/738/744/772/77W/146/EMB135/EMB145
 
leonardoq
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RE: AF's Lost Aura

Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:19 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
Having a flag carrier that is something other than a business, like a political or social tool, vanity project, etc. is exactly part of why Air France got to where they are at the moment. Airlines and countries cannot be doing that anymore. The airlines aren't competitive and the nations can't afford it.

Really? What is EK and Etihad, then? All of them sheik-owned...

[Edited 2012-01-21 06:21:33]
JJ, G3, QF, DJ, TG, LA, AR, EY, EK, LH, JQ, VY, TP, TZ, TR, AA
 
Eurohub
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RE: AF's Lost Aura

Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:33 pm

Quoting leonardoq (Reply 16):
Really? What is EK and Etihad, then? All of them sheik-owned...

I am sure that the sheiks are doing it for the reason that AF should be doing it - to make money; the sheiks have their 747SP's and the like for vanity projects... You can have an airline that acts as its country's flag carrier but you first have to respect the golden rule of business - to make a return on your investments!
Forget A vs B - Give me E or BAe any day of the week!
 
AR385
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RE: AF's Lost Aura

Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:05 pm

Quoting Nomik (Thread starter):
I want a flag-carrier to reflect a nation's achievements,contribution and pride.

You WANT?

Sorry. You may also want then to go back in time a few decades. The concept of a "flag carrier" is gone. Particularly nowadays that airlines are private, going concerns with shareholders (including the government) and the obligation to make money for said groups by the managers.

In fact, I am of the idea that certain countries can´t afford the luxury of maintaining an airline, yet they keep squandering resources on those money pits. Resources that could be used better elsewhere. Just outsource the air transport. I think Air Seychellles has seen the light in this regard and what they are doing is painful but the recognition of a reality.

With Europe´s more "pressing " issues at the moment, maintaining a "flag carrier" that is losing money and needs several improvements, just to reflect a "nation's achievements, contribution and pride." as you put it is ludicrous and a concept from a different era.

Right now those qualities need to be seen in the EU´s politicians, if they ever want to make it out of the black hole they are in.
 
VC10er
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RE: AF's Lost Aura

Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:30 pm

OPINION: for 2 decades I have flown Air France on and off. Perhaps for a total of 10 TATL and once to Brazil. I personally do not like Air France. I want to, but my experiences have always fallen short of expectations. And my #1 worst flying experience ever was on AF. I will probably avoid them from now on. But I personally believe the equity of FRANCE itself is of being the most sophisticated, fashionable and stylish country with what is often associated with the best food...one often expects the airline that best "represents" FRANCE would be an amazing FRENCH experience. IMHO, that high expectation puts AF in a tough spot.
The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: AF's Lost Aura

Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:52 pm

@Nomik (aka Chamonix - serial AF basher)

Get a life and give it a rest. You've started at least 5 AF-bashing threads in the last week. If you have a personal issue with AF, please spare the rest of us and take it up with them instead of creating thread after thread of mindless bashing.

[Edited 2012-01-21 08:55:53]
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
TYCOON
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RE: AF's Lost Aura

Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:02 pm

I find it odd that pure AF bashing threads are among the last to get locked on these boards... they are rarely if ever thought provoking or valuable threads, but merely a bunch of people spewing off steam for personal reasons.
And, having flown AF over 600 times in my life, the vast majority have been pleasant experiences, whether up front or in the back. Can't say the same for BA or LH both of which I have flown over 50 times each, both front and back, the worst being BA (food is inedible garbage). But I will continue to fly LH and BA from time to time because their J fares are so unbelievably cheap from Paris to the US or Asia....
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: AF's Lost Aura

Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:13 pm

Quoting TYCOON (Reply 21):
I find it odd that pure AF bashing threads are among the last to get locked on these boards...

Unfortunately, this has caused Pihero, a long-time AF pilot who has always been one of the most knowledgeable and valuable contibutors to a.net, to resign a few days ago.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
LJ
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RE: AF's Lost Aura

Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:21 pm

Quoting Nomik (Thread starter):


In past months,AF has axed so many routes and the savage cull is set to continue.

Maybe also look at all the other airlines which routes? LH canceled 3 destinations/flights and 1 temporary, postponed 1 flight (MUC-MEX), but has 1 new flight for S12. Air France canceled a few more destinations/flights (5/6 if I'm not mistaken), 1 temporary suspension and starts only 1 new flight (Paris - Wuhan). Thus, compared to its peer (LH) it's worse, but to say they axed "so many" (though if you consider 1 normal you're correct.
 
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Aquila3
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RE: AF's Lost Aura

Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:51 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 2):
Exactly. 99% of people outside Switzerland also have no idea that LX is a different carrier than the bankrupt and defunct Swissair, and in fact often still call LX Swissair.

For the very few thousands of meters that keep me outside of Switzerland, count me among them.
However, they delivered an excellent product before and they continue do it now, with all the due differences accounted.
Regarding AF, their kind of service undoubtedly contribute to the image that I , as a foreigner, have of France. The same would be if France had bumpy and dirty highways (that is NOT the case) , even if privately owned. I let to Frenchmen decide if they are satisfied with it or not. On my part, I stand trying to avoid AF, and this sadly means sometimes to avoid France because of this.
chi vola vale chi vale vola chi non vola è un vile
 
mozart
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RE: AF's Lost Aura

Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:14 pm

Not sure What you mean by "aura" and I confirm that reading your posts you seem to have an ire against AF.

Having said that I do disagree with most other people who say that it's an a.net thing. It isn't. Whilst I cannot say what aura is and how to measure its loss what is more clear is that Air France is

1. Losing money, LOTS of it, more than comparable peers in Europe (read: LH group, IAG)
2. Losing market share in the premium segment
3. Suffering from a loss in reputation as a quality carrier due to the declining quality of its cabin product

Seeing plenty of people at CDG and concluding from it that all is well is a fallacy. Recent numbers have proven that AF has increased load factors (thus the many people) but that has resulted in more financial losses.
 
BMI727
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RE: AF's Lost Aura

Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:38 am

Quoting leonardoq (Reply 16):
Really? What is EK and Etihad, then? All of them sheik-owned..

Those airlines are run an awful lot like businesses. And there used to be a time when countries like France, Greece and India could afford to heavily subsidize a flag carrier. Slowly but surely those times slip away.

Usually government controlled carriers are well shielded from competition and often as a result are less competitive and suffer high costs. When the day comes that the government has to cut them off, it is painful, but it must be done.

Belgium, Greece, and Switzerland are all doing just fine in terms of air travel and France will be no different. But they have to be allowed to run as a business.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?