Skytte
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Estonian Air Leaves Bombardier For Embraer

Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:24 pm

Estonian Air has received permission from the Estonian ministry of economy to replace new Bombardier CRJ 900 NextGen aircraft the airline acquired recently with aircraft built by Embraer.

It has been less than a year since the airline took delivery of the CRJ 900NGs as a replacement aircraft for its SAAB turboprop aircraft. The airline had announced that it was in negotiations with Bombardier for a further purchase of three aircraft as well.

However, according to press reports, negotiations were stalled over pricing and the airline looked towards Embraer to supply the aircraft it requires.

The airline has announced that it will be leasing three Embraer 170 aircraft from an undisclosed European airline to replace the CRJ 900NGs as a stop gap measure. The airline then intends to take delivery as soon as possible of three Embraer 190s directly from the manufacturer.

Link: http://www.rjet.ca/blog/2012/01/20/e...and-leaves-bombardier-for-embraer/
 
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HELyes
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RE: Estonian Air Leaves Bombardier For Embraer

Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:39 pm

Cool to see Embraers in Estonian colors, will look good! Probably will see those at some regional airports in Finland as OV is opening new routes.
 
LIPZ
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RE: Estonian Air Leaves Bombardier For Embraer

Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:44 pm

Quoting Skytte (Thread starter):
The airline has announced that it will be leasing three Embraer 170 aircraft from an undisclosed European airline

Maybe Alitalia?
Their EMB170 are leaving the fleet.
 
shanxz
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RE: Estonian Air Leaves Bombardier For Embraer

Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:58 am

Quoting HELyes (Reply 1):
Cool to see Embraers in Estonian colors, will look good! Probably will see those at some regional airports in Finland as OV is opening new routes.

You may actually not see the Embraers in Estonian Colors - they're likely to go for a new livery soon too!
Airlines are in the service business, not transport. Brand matters...
 
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BasilFawlty
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RE: Estonian Air Leaves Bombardier For Embraer

Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:17 am

It took them years to get these CRJ's and now they're finally here they'll dump them again? Very weird if you ask me...
'Every year donkeys and mules kill more people than plane crashes'
 
YVRLTN
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RE: Estonian Air Leaves Bombardier For Embraer

Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:49 am

Quoting Skytte (Thread starter):
It has been less than a year since the airline took delivery of the CRJ 900NGs as a replacement aircraft for its SAAB turboprop aircraft

How is the CR9 an SF3 replacement? I have just been to TLL and both SF3's are active, the CR9 is way too much aircraft for the short domestic flights they do plus LED & occasional HEL - did the Saab's used to go further afield?

Quoting Skytte (Thread starter):
However, according to press reports, negotiations were stalled over pricing

The last CR9 ACD has only just been delivered. With the lack of orders at BBD these days, I would have thought they would do everything they could to retain a client, seems very strange indeed.

There is an ex Cirrus 170 and a couple of other ex Team LH (Eurowings??) ERJ's available, think they are parked at EXT. Think there are a couple of ex Paramount India frames available there too.
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prebennorholm
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RE: Estonian Air Leaves Bombardier For Embraer

Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:53 am

Quoting Skytte (Thread starter):
...replace new Bombardier CRJ 900 NextGen aircraft the airline acquired recently...

Estonian cannot have been too happy with the CRJ 900 as they dump them after barely one year. In fact the last one was delivered from BBD earlier this week!

BTW, weren't those CRJ 900s part of the SAS "compensation" when they grounded and exposed off their Q400 fleet four years ago and bought a load of CRJ 900? If memory serves me well, then Estonian Air was, and still is, partly owned by SAS.

Is there another taker of those almost brand new 900s? SAS?

Even if SAS is famous for having almost every type of airliner in their fleet, then I think that this is first time to see an Embraer even partially within the SAS Group.

They talk about an original plan to acquire up to seven CRJ 900, which is now converted to E-jets. That probably means that the two old classic 737s are pretty soon up for retirement? (one -300 and one -500).
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
Skytte
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RE: Estonian Air Leaves Bombardier For Embraer

Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:31 am

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 5):
How is the CR9 an SF3 replacement? I have just been to TLL and both SF3's are active, the CR9 is way too much aircraft for the short domestic flights they do plus LED & occasional HEL - did the Saab's used to go further afield?

Indeed OV is replacing them soon. They we're looking for a fast turboprop, but eventually it hasn't turned to anything. A couple of weeks ago there was a "demo" Saab 2000 standing in TLL.

Las news are that SF34, Q900 and B733/5 are replaced by E170 and E190. The new CEO of OV finn Tero Taskila is building up some new strategy, focusing for Scandinavian regional airports to develop more transit traffic between Estonian Air’s Eastern and Western destinations.
 
CRJ900
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RE: Estonian Air Leaves Bombardier For Embraer

Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:25 am

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 6):
weren't those CRJ 900s part of the SAS "compensation" when they grounded and exposed off their Q400 fleet four years ago and bought a load of CRJ 900

Then perhaps the three CR9s for Estonian were dirt cheap as they were part of a big package. But when Estonian on their own started negotiations for more CR9, BBD wanted more realistic prices. It is probably just as expensive to build three new CR9 as 12, so volume discount is not offered for only three aircraft...

A shame if three brand-new CR9 are to be parked. Could Pluna or Eurowings be interested in these?

I assume the E170 and E190 aircraft are already built and flying, so they will be much cheaper to add to the fleet.
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SASMD82
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RE: Estonian Air Leaves Bombardier For Embraer

Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:26 am

I thought that the CASM of the ERJ170 was much higher than the CASM of the CRJ900NG. Except for range (do they really need longer range routes???) or passenger comfort (larger cabin), I cannot come up with a plausible reason to replace CRJ900NG with ERJ170.

BTW. Also why do airlines get rid of their ERJ170 (AZ, AY e.g.)?

Anyway, the Estonian livery looks stunning so I look forward to seeing the Embraers in Estonian livery!
 
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OA260
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RE: Estonian Air Leaves Bombardier For Embraer

Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:29 am

Quoting Skytte (Thread starter):
The airline has announced that it will be leasing three Embraer 170 aircraft

Good news indeed cant wait to see the E Jet in their livery .
 
CRJ900X
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RE: Estonian Air Leaves Bombardier For Embraer

Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:55 am

It seems like a huge waste of money to switch over the fleet to Embraer. The costs associated with pilot training, spare parts and maintenance seems like it would be prohibitively high for Estonian. I wonder if Embraer will take the 3 CRJ900 NextGen's and sell them onwards.

Although Bombardier is in need of new orders, they obviously reviewed the offer that Estonian wanted for additional CR9's and decided that the offer was not worth them building the aircraft.

I have a feeling that we will see additional CRJ900 NextGen orders come to pass in descent numbers for the CRJ family this year!

Cheers,
CRJ900X
 
PezySPU
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RE: Estonian Air Leaves Bombardier For Embraer

Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:14 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 10):
Good news indeed cant wait to see the E Jet in their livery .

Probably in their *new* livery. Their current one looks awesome, I hope they won't disappoint.

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 9):
BTW. Also why do airlines get rid of their ERJ170 (AZ, AY e.g.)?

Add LH and LO to the list. But BE seems to love them (although they are sardine-can configured - 88 seats).
 
CRJ900
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RE: Estonian Air Leaves Bombardier For Embraer

Sat Jan 21, 2012 3:41 pm

I'm surprised BBD didn't offer Estonian the four CRJ900s sitting in Canada waiting for new assignments - the three ex-AtlasJet and one ex-Macedonian aircraft. They are not NextGen but are still fairly new and with only 8,000-10,000 cycles. I'm sure that would be a lot cheaper for Estonian instead of buying new?
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TupolevTu154
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RE: Estonian Air Leaves Bombardier For Embraer

Sat Jan 21, 2012 3:54 pm

I flew on one of their CRJ's a few days ago between TLL and ARN. They also use them on their further routes to AMS and LGW . I'd imagine those would be quite cramped on a 2.5 hour full flight.

I love their scheme, definately in my top 3. I'd hate to see it change!
 
JL418
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RE: Estonian Air Leaves Bombardier For Embraer

Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:31 pm

Quoting LIPZ (Reply 2):
Maybe Alitalia?
Their EMB170 are leaving the fleet.

Probably not, Alitalia's E70s should go to Air France Régional if I remember correctly.
 
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eurowings
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RE: Estonian Air Leaves Bombardier For Embraer

Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:53 pm

Quoting TupolevTu154 (Reply 14):
I flew on one of their CRJ's a few days ago between TLL and ARN. They also use them on their further routes to AMS and LGW . I'd imagine those would be quite cramped on a 2.5 hour full flight.

I've done a 2h 40m flight on a CRJ900 with the seat next to me occupied and I thought it was quite comfortable actually.

It's a shame, they looked stunning in Estonian Air's livery. E-jets are great but they are rather generic (dare I say boring!) and in Europe at least, they are becoming rather common.
"Freddie Laker may be at peace with his Maker, but he is persona non grata with IATA."- HRH Duke of Edinburgh
 
jfidler
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RE: Estonian Air Leaves Bombardier For Embraer

Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:27 am

I think this article sheds more light on the decision:

"Estonian Air was originally expecting to acquire three new planes in addition to its existing Bombardiers. However, Bombardier imposed additional conditions that would have required the state owner to inject more capital into the carrier."

Source: http://news.err.ee/Economy/a11415ed-3d49-4043-a97a-9539891dfff5

So I'm thinking Bombardier looked at OV's financials and decided it was too much of a risk without the company being better capitalized, but the Estonian government didn't want to inject any more money. Then Embraer comes in with a better deal with less onerous requirements.
 
MH017
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RE: Estonian Air Leaves Bombardier For Embraer

Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:34 am

Very surprising switch indeed !!!

It must cost OV an arm-n-leg for this competitive move (crew/maintenance/training).

Hope the E70/E90 in OV's new colours looks as smashing as their current one on the CR9's...

Makes it even more urgent for me to fly to beautiful TLL this Summer, before it's all 'good-bye' to the Bombardier...

Just wonder who will be taking up these aircraft: SK ?
don't throw away tomorrow !
 
B747forever
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RE: Estonian Air Leaves Bombardier For Embraer

Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:26 pm

Anyone know for how long they will be flying the SF340s?
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
konrad
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RE: Estonian Air Leaves Bombardier For Embraer

Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:45 pm

Quoting PezySPU (Reply 12):
Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 9):
BTW. Also why do airlines get rid of their ERJ170 (AZ, AY e.g.)?

Add LH and LO to the list. But BE seems to love them (although they are sardine-can configured - 88 seats).

Because they are switching to larger versions: EMB-175, -190, -195 ?
 
dk001
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RE: Estonian Air Leaves Bombardier For Embraer

Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:11 pm

Might Finnair be the source of the ERJ-170 Aircraft, the seem to lease those model aircraft out a lot.

3 Already leased out 2 * Kenya Airways, 1 * Peoples ViennaLine.
 
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SKAirbus
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RE: Estonian Air Leaves Bombardier For Embraer

Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:41 am

I imagine SAS will take the CRJs as it was part of their original order.

They could replace some MD8X on thinner routes, further accelerating the fleet replacement program.

Seems they are taking a leaf out of SAS' book.. Dumping an entire fleet of relatively new aircraft. Then again SAS' excuse was a little more plausible.
Next Flights: LHR-OSL (738), OSL-CPH (320), CPH-LHR (321), LHR-HEL (359), HEL-LHR (359)
 
Someone83
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RE: Estonian Air Leaves Bombardier For Embraer

Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:46 am

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 6):
Estonian cannot have been too happy with the CRJ 900 as they dump them after barely one year. In fact the last one was delivered from BBD earlier this week!

It's nothing to do with being happy or not, but the fact that they can't afford more of them, and that Bombardier won't finance them

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 6):
Even if SAS is famous for having almost every type of airliner in their fleet, then I think that this is first time to see an Embraer even partially within the SAS Group.

OV is no longer part of the SAS Group
 
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teme82
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RE: Estonian Air Leaves Bombardier For Embraer

Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:57 pm

Quoting dk001 (Reply 21):
Might Finnair be the source of the ERJ-170 Aircraft, the seem to lease those model aircraft out a lot.

Yeah that thought was on my mid too...
Flying high and low
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Estonian Air Leaves Bombardier For Embraer

Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:51 am

Quoting someone83 (Reply 23):
OV is no longer part of the SAS Group

SAS still holds a 10% stake in OV. The recently sold 39% to the Estonian government, which holds the remaining 90%.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
Someone83
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RE: Estonian Air Leaves Bombardier For Embraer

Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:12 am

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 25):
SAS still holds a 10% stake in OV

Yes, which means they no longer part of the SAS group, as SAS only has a small financial investment in OV, which they haven't been able to sell yet
 
Skytte
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RE: Estonian Air Leaves Bombardier For Embraer

Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:30 am

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 6):
They talk about an original plan to acquire up to seven CRJ 900, which is now converted to E-jets. That probably means that the two old classic 737s are pretty soon up for retirement? (one -300 and one -500).

That's right, only one 737 is still in the fleet - ES-ABL and Finnair is indeed one of the options for a E170.
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Estonian Air Leaves Bombardier For Embraer

Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:51 am

It would be interesting to know the story of financing on this move. It may just be Emb willing to take a chance on the airline that BBD wasn't willing to take on.
What the...?
 
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Vasu
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RE: Estonian Air Leaves Bombardier For Embraer

Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:43 pm

Any ideas when the new livery is due?

I also love the current one... got to be one of the best out there in my opinion!

Let's hope they don't "do a Finnair" ...
 
traveler_7
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RE: Estonian Air Leaves Bombardier For Embraer

Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:10 pm

Strange thing is, that OV's home page is silent about any possible changes. By the way article in Wikipedia talks about 4 EMB 190 in order... .

Quoting shanxz (Reply 3):
You may actually not see the Embraers in Estonian Colors - they're likely to go for a new livery soon too!

Is it just rumors or it was announced somewhere??? Wonder what this new livery would look like.

[Edited 2012-01-24 14:10:58]
 
Skytte
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RE: Estonian Air Leaves Bombardier For Embraer

Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:20 am

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 28):
It would be interesting to know the story of financing on this move. It may just be Emb willing to take a chance on the airline that BBD wasn't willing to take on.

One of the reasons was that Bombardier imposed additional conditions that would have required the state owner to inject more capital into the carrier.
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Estonian Air Leaves Bombardier For Embraer

Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:48 am

Quoting Skytte (Reply 31):

Do you know of any particular financial problems with the airline that might have scared BBD away?
What the...?
 
traveler_7
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RE: Estonian Air Leaves Bombardier For Embraer

Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:22 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 32):
Do you know of any particular financial problems with the airline that might have scared BBD away?

Not necessarily problems, it may be that BBD expect that company generates profit or some other conditions should be satisfied. Do not forget that overall economic perspective for this year not good either. By the way how well BBD is doing?
 
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teme82
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RE: Estonian Air Leaves Bombardier For Embraer

Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:57 am

This came in today!

Quote:
Finnair Plc
Company Announcement
Finnair sub-leases four Embraer 170 aircraft to Estonian Air

FINNAIR PLC STOCK EXCHANGE RELEASE FEBRUARY, 3 2012 at 09:00 EET

Finnair continues to optimize its narrow body fleet and has signed an agreement on the sublease of four Embraer 170 aircraft to Estonian Air. The sublease opportunity is in part made possible by Finnair’s continued work on network optimization and rationalization, and the company achieves considerable savings with this agreement. Fleet optimization is a part of Finnair’s savings program that targets annual savings of 140 million euros.

The sublease periods begin in the first quarter of 2012 and end during 2015. Finnair operates its narrow-body fleet in its domestic and European network.

Finnair announced on August 5, 2011 that it targeted decreases in its annual costs of 140 million euros by 2014. Finnair has already announced that it:

- optimizes its narrow body fleet by discontinuing the lease agreements of four Airbus A320 Series aircraft
- has transferred baggage and apron services to Swissport
- is evaluating the optimum size of its fleet in European air traffic
- has begun analyses of different alternatives to improve cost-efficiency of maintenance service
- continues to investigate partnership opportunities for catering production and Finncatering
- is streamlining its support functions and marketing and distribution activities
- has initiated, and is initiating, numerous smaller savings measures throughout the company.

Further information:
Finnair Media Desk tel. +358 9 818 4020, comms(a)finnair.com

Finnair Plc
Communications
3 February 2012


https://newsclient.omxgroup.com/cdsPublic/viewDisclosure.action?disclosureId=488849&lang=en
Flying high and low
 
qf340500
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RE: Estonian Air Leaves Bombardier For Embraer

Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:04 am

seems like a lot of money wasted for the purchase of the CRJ, and now that... well... they must have a lot of liquidity then... or is it another eastern european airline going down the drain in future? Just thinking about the cost to swap from Saab to CRJ and now to E-jets in, what, a year?
 
Skytte
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RE: Estonian Air Leaves Bombardier For Embraer

Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:07 am

Quote:
The first four 76-seater Embraer 170 will be delivered to Estonia in February 2012 under a lease agreement with Finnair. The aircraft will be used for replacing the existing Boeing aircraft and for growth. The company is currently negotiating with the manufacturer and lessors on the delivery schedules and conditions for the further eight aircraft. These aircraft will be a mix of E-175 and E-190 models, which offer 88 and 112 seats respectively. The aircraft are scheduled to enter the fleet in 2013-2015 time period.

Press release: http://estonian-air.ee/en/service/ne...to-support-its-long-term-strategy/
 
Treg
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RE: Estonian Air Leaves Bombardier For Embraer

Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:45 am

Quoting QF340500 (Reply 35):
seems like a lot of money wasted for the purchase of the CRJ, and now that... well... they must have a lot of liquidity then... or is it another eastern european airline going down the drain in future? Just thinking about the cost to swap from Saab to CRJ and now to E-jets in, what, a year?

There have been some inaccuracies in this thread.

CRJ-s were purchased while OV belonged to SAS. They were supposed to replace and complement 733/735-s. It was a part of the larger SAS deal with Bombardier.

Since last year SAS is only a minority owner and OV needs additional capacity. The price offered by Bombardier was not any more very attractive and in order to avoid a bigger mess the new management decided to make a complete swap (before it is too late). All CRJ-s and Boeings will be removed from the fleet and replaced with E175/195-s. The first 4 ones will be leased from Finnair. The rest will most likely be factory new ones (they are talking about 8 frames).

About Saab: They are still part of the fleet and they have not selected a replacement for them (yet).
 
traveler_7
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RE: Estonian Air Leaves Bombardier For Embraer

Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:58 am

Quoting Treg (Reply 37):
About Saab: They are still part of the fleet and they have not selected a replacement for them (yet).

There were some rumors that Saabs may be replaced by ATRs.
 
FlyingAY
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RE: Estonian Air Leaves Bombardier For Embraer

Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:41 am

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 9):
BTW. Also why do airlines get rid of their ERJ170 (AZ, AY e.g.)?

AY has also the E190, which according to them, has almost similar operating cost, but contains some 20 seats more.

OV getting the E170s from AY came to my mind as well...
 
B747forever
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RE: Estonian Air Leaves Bombardier For Embraer

Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:55 pm

Quoting traveler_7 (Reply 38):
There were some rumors that Saabs may be replaced by ATRs.

How accurate are those rumours? Will they replace the Saabs by June?
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
traveler_7
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RE: Estonian Air Leaves Bombardier For Embraer

Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:36 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 40):
How accurate are those rumours?

If it would be accurate information I would not call it rumors  . It was mentioned few times in local press, could not find link now.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 40):
Will they replace the Saabs by June?

It is difficult to predict timing here. They announce quite ambitions plans, would they be able to implement those plans with just two Saabs???
 
Treg
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RE: Estonian Air Leaves Bombardier For Embraer

Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:49 pm

Quoting shanxz (Reply 3):
You may actually not see the Embraers in Estonian Colors - they're likely to go for a new livery soon too!

Now it is official: the new logo, livery and brand will be unveiled tomorrow, Friday (10/02/2012).
 
traveler_7
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RE: Estonian Air Leaves Bombardier For Embraer

Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:34 pm

Quoting Treg (Reply 42):
Now it is official: the new logo, livery and brand will be unveiled tomorrow, Friday (10/02/2012).

what is your source?
 
eicvd
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RE: Estonian Air Leaves Bombardier For Embraer

Thu Feb 09, 2012 5:41 pm

On wikipedia it states OV have ERJ-175's on order aswell as the 170's & 190's, any truth in that?
COYBIB
 
traveler_7
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RE: Estonian Air Leaves Bombardier For Embraer

Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:15 pm

Quoting eicvd (Reply 44):
On wikipedia it states OV have ERJ-175's on order aswell as the 170's & 190's, any truth in that?

ERJ-170 are leased from AY and will arrive in the and of this month. "News" section of OV homepage mentions mixed order of 175's and 190's.
 
Treg
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RE: Estonian Air Leaves Bombardier For Embraer

Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:11 pm

Quoting traveler_7 (Reply 43):
what is your source?

http://www.e24.ee/733680/estonian-air-avaldab-homme-uue-kujunduse/ (In Estonian only)

[Edited 2012-02-09 12:15:52]