southwest737500
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Southwest Possible Routes From Charlotte

Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:39 pm

Long time ready first time posting

I've lived for Charlotte for about 8 year and I am thrilled that Southwest is going to stay.

Wanted to hear from everyone on what you think southwest will do with CLT. to give you a little information on AirTran routes and frequency.

KCLT-KATL. 3x
KCLT-KBWI. 3x starting in march
KCLT-KMCO 1x

AirTran has 2 gates

So personally it think southwest will add MDW having 3x a day and maybe LAS with 1x

So I think there would be a total of 11 flights

Just my thoughts

[Edited 2012-01-22 10:41:53]
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smoot4208
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RE: Southwest Possible Routes From Charlotte

Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:43 pm

Quoting southwest737500 (Thread starter):
So I think there would be a total of 11 flights

This might be the first rational post I have heard about WN at CLT. Some people on here seem to think they will grow it up 30+ flights. 10-15 is were I think they will settle.

As it stands now, there is absolutely no room for WN to have more than their current 2 gates on A concourse.
 
southwest737500
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RE: Southwest Possible Routes From Charlotte

Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:47 pm

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 1):

I totally agree with you 10-15 seems perfect
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STT757
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RE: Southwest Possible Routes From Charlotte

Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:55 pm

Quoting southwest737500 (Thread starter):
Wanted to hear from everyone on what you think southwest will do with CLT.

5x ATL
4x BWI
3x MDW
1x MCO
1x STL
1x HOU
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
point2point
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RE: Southwest Possible Routes From Charlotte

Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:57 pm

I wonder if DEN would be a possiblity?

Right now, looking at the US airways site, on the date of 4/24 and return 5/2, DEN-CLT on US shows six nonstops, four of them with A321s and the other two an A320 and A319. Lot's of traffic here it seems on this US monopoly route.

Only catch is that the r/t fares are $364, and that doesn't seem bad at all.

However, same flight leaving about one week from today (lv 2/1 and rt 2/8) shows a r/t fare of $1368.

Any place for a WN flight or two here?
 
southwest737500
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RE: Southwest Possible Routes From Charlotte

Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:59 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 3):

I think they could make STL work just because of all of the connection oppourtunties
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Bobloblaw
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RE: Southwest Possible Routes From Charlotte

Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:00 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 3):
5x ATL
4x BWI
3x MDW
1x MCO
1x STL
1x HOU

If ATL is a focus P2P city for WN, they wont fly ATL-CLT at all. I doubt theyd do STL, it doesnt offer anything MDW or HOU offers in terms of connections.

BWI 4-5
MDW 3-4
MCO 1-2
HOU-2-3
DEN 1-2
 
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STT757
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RE: Southwest Possible Routes From Charlotte

Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:01 pm

Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 5):
I think they could make STL work just because of all of the connection oppourtunties

Yeah I think they would connect the dots with WN's "hubs", I forgot to add one:

Quoting point2point (Reply 4):
I wonder if DEN would be a possiblity?
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
southwest737500
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RE: Southwest Possible Routes From Charlotte

Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:02 pm

Quoting point2point (Reply 4):

I have to agree with you. With all of the expansion WN has done I really think they could make this work.

1x a day

I mean there is 2 gates. The way WN runs they could easily do 20 x flights a day if they wanted to
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southwest737500
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RE: Southwest Possible Routes From Charlotte

Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:04 pm

Quoting BobLoblaw (Reply 6):

You really think they would dump ATL down the toilet
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LambertMan
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RE: Southwest Possible Routes From Charlotte

Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:12 pm

Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 5):
I think they could make STL work just because of all of the connection oppourtunties

Usually when a new station opens in the southeast Nashville gets the route in favor of St. Louis and vice versa when a station is opened in the heartland territory. I would fully expect that trend to continue -- unless Atlanta replaces Nashville's role as the primary Southeast connection point. We shall see, but I doubt St. Louis sees CLT.
 
point2point
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RE: Southwest Possible Routes From Charlotte

Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:31 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 3):
5x ATL
Quoting STT757 (Reply 3):
1x STL
Quoting BobLoblaw (Reply 6):
DEN 1-2
Quoting Lambertman (Reply 10):
Nashville

Looking at the FAA numbers for Q3 2010, we get the daily O&D as follows

CLT-ATL - 410
CLT-STL - 346
CLT-DEN - 400
CLT-BNA - 273

(remember though, Q3 is the busiest season and highest numbers here)

I would assume any of these could at least offer one WN flight (or even more) from CLT on the basis of O&D alone. Add in the connects, and more flights are possible.
 
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RE: Southwest Possible Routes From Charlotte

Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:32 pm

Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 9):

You really think they would dump ATL down the toilet

I would not be surprised to see WN drop CLT-ATL as well. It is virtually 100% connecting traffic, which is something that does not fit well with the WN business model. I say trade ATL for flights to BNA and HOU.
 
southwest737500
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RE: Southwest Possible Routes From Charlotte

Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:35 pm

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 12):

Now thinking about that. You make a excellent point. I totally agree with. That makes alot of Sense
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Cubsrule
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RE: Southwest Possible Routes From Charlotte

Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:20 pm

Quoting point2point (Reply 11):
I would assume any of these could at least offer one WN flight (or even more) from CLT on the basis of O&D alone. Add in the connects, and more flights are possible.

The problem with those numbers is that FL is getting less than 20 percent of the local market on CLTATL. FL stimulated the market with its fares, but at least in terms of butts in the seats, US and DL were the main beneficiaries.

Quoting Lambertman (Reply 10):
I would fully expect that trend to continue -- unless Atlanta replaces Nashville's role as the primary Southeast connection point. We shall see, but I doubt St. Louis sees CLT.

Agreed. With respect to the CLT market specifically, I think there's probably more room for low-fare stimulation, too. The average BNACLT fare is $50 higher or so than the average STLCLT fare even though BNA is 200 miles closer. With no LFC even offering connecting service, BNA-CLT fares are absurd, and it's not a terrible drive.

Quoting point2point (Reply 4):
I wonder if DEN would be a possiblity?

That depends if they want to make money or destroy F9. F9 doesn't fly to CLT.
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Bobloblaw
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RE: Southwest Possible Routes From Charlotte

Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:23 pm

It is very clear that WN is going to have to figure out if how much overflying of ATL they want to do to their other major stations such as BWI, MDW, HOU, DEN, STL etc. WN will have so many 100+ daily flight "hubs" that they will soon risk diluting their own traffic base. WN has said that high fuel and labor costs have resulted in less stimulation in new markets than use to be the case.
 
southwest737500
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RE: Southwest Possible Routes From Charlotte

Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:24 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 14):

It is FL, do you know how many people drive to RDU or GSP, WN will do just fine
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southwest737500
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RE: Southwest Possible Routes From Charlotte

Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:27 pm

I think DEN would work fine with one flight
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Cubsrule
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RE: Southwest Possible Routes From Charlotte

Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:29 pm

Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 16):
do you know how many people drive to RDU or GSP, WN will do just fine

What market are you talking about? CLT-ATL? Why would I drive to GSP or RDU to fly to ATL rather than just driving to ATL?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
southwest737500
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RE: Southwest Possible Routes From Charlotte

Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:36 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 18):

I'm saying many people in CLT drive to GSP,RDU to catch a WN flight
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Cubsrule
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RE: Southwest Possible Routes From Charlotte

Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:40 pm

Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 19):
I'm saying many people in CLT drive to GSP,RDU to catch a WN flight

And how is that relevant to CLT-ATL?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
southwest737500
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RE: Southwest Possible Routes From Charlotte

Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:40 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 18):

Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 16):
do you know how many people drive to RDU or GSP, WN will do just fine

What market are you talking about? CLT-ATL? Why would I drive to GSP or RDU to fly to ATL rather than just driving to ATL?


I'm talking about markets in general. Not just ATL
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southwest737500
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RE: Southwest Possible Routes From Charlotte

Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:44 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 20):

Alot of people in CLT love WN. But the problem is, they don't fly here. So many people drive to GSP or RDU to get a WN. Flight because of e no change fee, free bags,better customers service, etc

I didn't state Atlanta itself.
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Cubsrule
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RE: Southwest Possible Routes From Charlotte

Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:54 pm

Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 22):
So many people drive to GSP or RDU to get a WN. Flight because of e no change fee, free bags,better customers service, etc

I'm not persuaded. It was unquestionably true 11 or 12 years ago before TZ came to town, but CLT has had a parade of well-patronized LFC service since then - TZ left right around the time that DH started, and FL was there by the time DH went bust.

Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 22):
I didn't state Atlanta itself.

I guess I don't understand why you are arguing with me, then. I said BNA-CLT would do well (and I think CLT-STL would too, but it's likely not a very high priority).
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
southwest737500
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RE: Southwest Possible Routes From Charlotte

Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:10 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 23):

I'm really not trying argue with you. All I meant is that there are a lot of people in Charlotte that drive to RDU or GSP ,
I wasn't saying to drive to GSP to ATL. I meant alot of people do that so they can fly to owe markets.

I misunderstood you, I do think Nashville makes more sense because look at GSP and CHS. That was there southeastern destination. I really think that makes more sense for Charlotte

Sorry for the confusion
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ERJ170
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RE: Southwest Possible Routes From Charlotte

Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:25 pm

Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 24):
All I meant is that there are a lot of people in Charlotte that drive to RDU or GSP ,

I can't see that as the case anymore.. with AirTran to Baltimore, Atlanta, and Orlando... as well as jetBlue to Boston and New York, there are not a lot of destinations left that WN flies that CLT residents can't get to on their own LCC. I'm sure that was the case before FL and B6, but these days.. it would be pretty crazy for someone to drive the 3 hours to RDU just to get a flight that they can take in their own airport.

Plus, I believe, US lowered their fares to a lot of their cities from CLT so what's the incentive for these people to travel to RDU?
Aiming High and going far..
 
southwest737500
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RE: Southwest Possible Routes From Charlotte

Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:35 pm

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 25):

GSP is an 1hr 10 min drive
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southwest737500
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RE: Southwest Possible Routes From Charlotte

Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:39 pm

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 25):

They didn't lower fares, they raised them, I look at flights from clt everyday. Yes they lower there fare that B6 and FL serve but that's only 5 , U also picked RDU when I stated GSP which is 1hr 10 min
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ERJ170
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RE: Southwest Possible Routes From Charlotte

Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:42 pm

Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 27):


They didn't lower fares, they raised them, I look at flights from clt everyday. Yes they lower there fare that B6 and FL serve but that's only 5 , U also picked RDU when I stated GSP which is 1hr 10 min

I'm not trying to blame you for anything so simma down.. but you stated "a lot of people drive from Charlotte to RDU and GSP".. I'm just stating driving to RDU makes no sense when the LCC flights from RDU are similar to the flights CLT has on LCCs. I'm just saying..
Aiming High and going far..
 
point2point
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RE: Southwest Possible Routes From Charlotte

Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:45 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 14):
That depends if they want to make money or destroy F9. F9 doesn't fly to CLT.

Hmmm... interesting.

It seems that WN is planning a lot of routes that seem to stick it to F9, but I don't think that's the only factor involved here (although it might be a big one, I admit). WN would be just as happy to stick it to UA, US, DL, AA, etc. just as well, although I don't think that that is the motive.

WN seemed to do what is good for WN, although that seems to have changed a bit as of late is my thinking.
 
southwest737500
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RE: Southwest Possible Routes From Charlotte

Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:45 pm

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 28):

I understand, I'm really not trying to argue. Personally I think t is crazy to drive to RDU, but there is a good amount of people who take that drive.

I myself would usually drive to GSP
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GSPSPOT
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RE: Southwest Possible Routes From Charlotte

Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:49 pm

There's another thread dealing with the latest schedule release from WN. Apparently, not much is changing for CLT anytime soon.
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southwest737500
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RE: Southwest Possible Routes From Charlotte

Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:02 pm

Quoting GSPSPOT (Reply 31):

I dont get why WN isn't doing anything with CLT. They should add MDW
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GSPSPOT
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RE: Southwest Possible Routes From Charlotte

Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:11 pm

Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 32):
I dont get why WN isn't doing anything with CLT. They should add MDW

I really don't either. Seems to me CLT is a fertile market.
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smoot4208
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RE: Southwest Possible Routes From Charlotte

Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:30 pm

Actually MCO-CLT is being dropped.
 
southwest737500
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RE: Southwest Possible Routes From Charlotte

Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:32 pm

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 34):

That's what I read but. It looks like it is being dropped because of aircraft repaints, there going to start take the 717 out o get a new paint and interior seat etc
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smoot4208
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RE: Southwest Possible Routes From Charlotte

Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:46 pm

Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 35):

That's what I read but. It looks like it is being dropped because of aircraft repaints, there going to start take the 717 out o get a new paint and interior seat etc

While that might be, when you take aircraft out, you cut the least profitable routes. or loss making routes to paint airplanes. When WN chose to start GSP service over CLT, it showed that they really don't have big plans for CLT. US under the mgmt of Parker seems to have gotten the better hand against WN at their strongholds (PHX & PHL). WN is retracting in both of those markets. I believe they view CLT will be the same result.
 
southwest737500
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RE: Southwest Possible Routes From Charlotte

Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:55 pm

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 36):

If u live in CLT you would know that Jerry Orr is in bed with us air and that is why WN is not in CLT . until is year
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flyjoe
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RE: Southwest Possible Routes From Charlotte

Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:31 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 23):
Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 22):
So many people drive to GSP or RDU to get a WN. Flight because of e no change fee, free bags,better customers service, etc

I'm not persuaded. It was unquestionably true 11 or 12 years ago before TZ came to town, but CLT has had a parade of well-patronized LFC service since then - TZ left right around the time that DH started, and FL was there by the time DH went bust.

Cubsrule is correct, people driving to GSP/RDU/GSO for lower fares doesn't happen like it used to in the past, unless you are geographically located to go in either direction.

I'm in Concord, 25 miles to CLT and I haven't had to fly out of GSP/GSO/RDU to get a considerably lower fares in almost 8-10 years. It has to be quite a savings now to make that drive, with gas about $3.50 a gallon here and factoring in how much is your time worth for the extra 3-4 hours of driving. Now if you're on a vacation, with 3-4 tickets to purchase, maybe, but the business traveler is likely not driving 4 hours to save $75 in airfare.
 
southwest737500
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RE: Southwest Possible Routes From Charlotte

Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:47 pm

Quoting FLYjoe (Reply 38):

1hr 10 min to GSP
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flyjoe
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RE: Southwest Possible Routes From Charlotte

Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:15 am

Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 39):
1hr 10 min to GSP

That depends on where in the CLT metro area you're located. From my location in Concord, it's 110 miles (about 1.5 hours), not counting navigating the I-85 construction section. RDU is about 2 hours even. So to save $75-100... I'll pass and fly out of CLT for a business trip, but if I'm buying tickets for four on a family vacation, then that savings is worth it.
 
southwest737500
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RE: Southwest Possible Routes From Charlotte

Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:35 am

Quoting FLYjoe (Reply 40):

I totally understand where ur coming from. When I fly for business there is no need to drive that far when clt is 20min from me.

But for leisure if I want to save some money I probably would go to GSP.



I can fly allegiant to orlando to see my family for. 200 $ rt for 2 people.

I totally agree u
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usxguy
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RE: Southwest Possible Routes From Charlotte

Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:31 am

Well I honestly see WN axing CLT-ATL as FL is only getting about an 8% O/D pax on that route. WN will simply move those passengers thru other airports. I can see MCO, MSY, BNA, MDW, and BWI being those markets.
xx
 
southwest737500
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RE: Southwest Possible Routes From Charlotte

Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:33 am

Quoting usxguy (Reply 42):

I agree with u
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MaverickM11
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RE: Southwest Possible Routes From Charlotte

Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:52 am

Quoting GSPSPOT (Reply 33):
I really don't either. Seems to me CLT is a fertile market.

I just don't see it. FL couldn't manage much of a schedule out of CLT. WN is going to raise their costs, lower their ancillary fees, and go up against US after walking away from most of PIT/PHL. CLT is not a very large market, but US has managed to make the most out of it by flowing anyone and everyone over it. What is there for WN to stimulate?

Quoting point2point (Reply 11):
CLT-ATL - 410
CLT-STL - 346
CLT-DEN - 400
CLT-BNA - 273

US flies 8 +/- daily to ATL/BNA, 5 to DEN--mostly 321s--that local market could basically fit on two of those planes, and 6x to STL--what is WN going to pick up? If WN starts anything US can just adjust the flow and favor locals and it's good night moon for WN. PHL was a much larger market by comparison and WN couldn't cut it there--CLT is going to be very difficult for WN to pull off.
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FutureUScapt
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RE: Southwest Possible Routes From Charlotte

Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:05 am

Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 19):
I'm saying many people in CLT drive to GSP,RDU to catch a WN flight

Source?

Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 27):
They didn't lower fares, they raised them, I look at flights from clt everyday.

Again, source?

Just because an itinerary that you might be looking at is more expensive doesn't meant that's true for all markets or even that specific market that you are looking at. Indeed, there are several CLT markets where the average US fare has declined YOY - and no they aren't markets shared with LCCs.

Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 8):


I mean there is 2 gates. The way WN runs they could easily do 20 x flights a day if they wanted to

20x on 2 gates??

I'm sure it's physically possible, but that's quite aggressive. Someone from WN ops can correct me here, but I'd be surprised if there is any station where WN gets that kind of gate utilization. I would say something like 15-16x is more reasonable, assuming they have a desire to get to those levels.

Quoting point2point (Reply 11):
Looking at the FAA numbers for Q3 2010, we get the daily O&D as follows

CLT-ATL - 410
CLT-STL - 346
CLT-DEN - 400
CLT-BNA - 273

(remember though, Q3 is the busiest season and highest numbers here)

I would assume any of these could at least offer one WN flight (or even more) from CLT on the basis of O&D alone. Add in the connects, and more flights are possible.

I'd agree there is a possibility for WN on some of those routes - but WN has to ask themselves just how much of that traffic do they think they can get. They will be severely out-scheduled by US in every case, so unless its a flight to a real WN stronghold, I just don't see it working out.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 14):
The problem with those numbers is that FL is getting less than 20 percent of the local market on CLTATL. FL stimulated the market with its fares, but at least in terms of butts in the seats, US and DL were the main beneficiaries.

Exactly. And the reality is that there is going to be that disproportionate swing towards US in every CLT market that WN decides to enter because the will be out-scheduled by US by a factor of two, three, or more. That is, unless, WN goes on a strategic mission and decides that 8x CLT-BNA/HOU/MSY is what is necessary.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 44):
US flies 8 +/- daily to ATL/BNA, 5 to DEN--mostly 321s--that local market could basically fit on two of those planes, and 6x to STL--what is WN going to pick up? If WN starts anything US can just adjust the flow and favor locals and it's good night moon for WN. PHL was a much larger market by comparison and WN couldn't cut it there--CLT is going to be very difficult for WN to pull off.

Bingo. I've always said that CLT offers all of the challenges (i.e. fortress hub) for an LCC and none of the benefits (i.e. large market).
 
southwest737500
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RE: Southwest Possible Routes From Charlotte

Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:07 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 44):

I get ur point. Most of the traffic I connecting traffic. I think if you did a 50 mile radius that is about 3.7 million, someone stated on another form.

There was a company that moves from CVG area to CLT, just because of all the direct flights. Granted one company isn't going to change everything. I do believe there Is room for southwest they just have to pick the routes that make the most sense. For the west coast I think LAS or. DEN makes sense. MDW should be a given. I fell out of my chair today when I saw AirTran is dropping the flight to orlando. I was infuriated.
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usflyguy
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RE: Southwest Possible Routes From Charlotte

Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:39 pm

Quoting FutureUScapt (Reply 45):

LAS runs about 200 flights a day with 19 gates
STL is almost to 90 flights with ~10 gates
My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
 
southwest737500
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RE: Southwest Possible Routes From Charlotte

Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:13 pm

Quoting FutureUScapt (Reply 45):

Look online on prices

WN can operate 10x on one gate,that was stated on another form. MSY makes no sense at all.BNA is more logical.

I read forms on the Internet and I talked to friends and business associates about driving to GSP. So don't say where is the source,

I'm the primary source I got the info from so many people on the Internet
Next flight: TUL-ATL-CLT CRJ900 and MD88
 
southwest737500
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RE: Southwest Possible Routes From Charlotte

Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:16 pm

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 47):

Thank you for that. I hate when people question that
Next flight: TUL-ATL-CLT CRJ900 and MD88