santi319
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Hawaiian To JFK - New B6 Partnership

Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:35 am

As of right now it is a rumor, but it will be confirmed today, they will be parking at T-5, intersting B6 keeps having interline agreements instead of growing organically in JFK, while BOS sees most of B6 expansion to new destinations.

[Edited 2012-01-23 03:45:42]
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: Hawaiian To JFK - New B6 Partnership

Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:41 am

Quoting Santi319 (Thread starter):


As of right now it is a rumor, but it will be confirmed today, they will be parking at T-5, intersting B6 keeps code-sharing instead of growing organically in JFK, while BOS sees most of B6 expansion to new destinations.


B6 doesn't codeshare with anyone at this time, they do have interline agreements in place with a few carriers to facilitate connections. And JFK is close to being maxed out for B6 in terms of commercially viable slots, a problem they don't face at BOS.
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jfk777
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RE: Hawaiian To JFK - New B6 Partnership

Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:52 pm

Is this the first A330 to park at Terminal 5 ? Terminal 5 seems very friendly to A320 but not big 777 size planes.
 
simairlinenet
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RE: Hawaiian To JFK - New B6 Partnership

Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:52 pm

Interesting, I would have expected Delta to be the logical candidate given the current relationship.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 2):
Is this the first A330 to park at Terminal 5 ? Terminal 5 seems very friendly to A320 but not big 777 size planes.

This is a very good point. What is gate availability for 0655-1000, the scheduled turn time?
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: Hawaiian To JFK - New B6 Partnership

Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:01 pm

"This is a very good point. What is gate availability for 0655-1000, the scheduled turn time?"

Ironically, the one time of day when every gate is filled.

"intersting B6 keeps having interline agreements instead of growing organically in JFK"

They can not grow at JFK...they are slot restricted.

Now if AA pulls out/downsizes in BK, that is a different story
 
B6FA4ever
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RE: Hawaiian To JFK - New B6 Partnership

Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:01 pm

The only logical gate that could be used would be gate 27 IMO...but not sure if the wing span would also keep gate 26 vacant during the turn time. I believe its a 3hr ground time for the aircraft.
 
jetbluefan1
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RE: Hawaiian To JFK - New B6 Partnership

Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:01 pm

According to the AP, travelers can redeem frequent flier points on each other's flights. I'm pretty sure this is different from B6's other interline agreements except the one with AA.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/JetBlu...rlines-ink-apf-3568915484.html?x=0
 
werdywerd
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RE: Hawaiian To JFK - New B6 Partnership

Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:03 pm

Here is my picture from today's event

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/2572/b6has.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

It is confirmed that they will be using T5 at JFK.

We have 5 or 6 gates that their A330 will be able to use. In order to fit the aircraft, we will have to shutdown the neighboring gate and move the Jetway over.

Non-Stop service to/from JFK T5 starts in June

Very Excited!
 
contrails15
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RE: Hawaiian To JFK - New B6 Partnership

Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:12 pm

Gate 27 is approved my PANYNJ as a widebody gate. Whether or not you'll be able to use gate 26 at the same time, time will tell because demo is done next door so you can move the construction barrier and extend the jet bridge out more. I'm a little surprised we got this contract. With a service company being cheap and T4 set up for widebodies one would think they would be over there. The challenge will be sticking an A330 amount of pax up in the terminal. Its EXTREMELY cramped between 25-27. Eh, wouldn't be the first forced thing this airline has done here.
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KarlB737
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RE: Hawaiian To JFK - New B6 Partnership

Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:25 pm

Quoting Santi319 (Thread starter):
As of right now it is a rumor, but it will be confirmed today

Courtesy: CNBC

Video Report:

JetBlue Teams Up With Hawaiian Airlines

http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000068807
 
Av8tor
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RE: Hawaiian To JFK - New B6 Partnership

Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:27 pm

Quoting werdywerd (Reply 7):
Very Excited!

Do you work for JetBlue? Are you Inflight? If so, you shouldn't be so excited, you are being outsourced. Another route that B6 will never fly on their own. Less motivation to buy an aircraft with the range to fly to Hawaii.
 
BMI727
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RE: Hawaiian To JFK - New B6 Partnership

Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:38 pm

Quoting Av8tor (Reply 10):
Another route that B6 will never fly on their own.

They likely wouldn't have done that anytime soon. And I'm sure that everyone at JetBlue is completely disappointed with a new partnership that will help them fill their planes.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
airbazar
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RE: Hawaiian To JFK - New B6 Partnership

Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:38 pm

Quoting Av8tor (Reply 10):
Do you work for JetBlue? Are you Inflight? If so, you shouldn't be so excited, you are being outsourced. Another route that B6 will never fly on their own. Less motivation to buy an aircraft with the range to fly to Hawaii.

This is the stupidest comment I've heard in a while. Not only does it ignore the obvious and inherent benefits of cooperation between airlines which just about every airline in existence has, but why in the world would B6 want to a) fly to Hawaii, and b) want to buy a plane with that kind of range?
 
brons2
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RE: Hawaiian To JFK - New B6 Partnership

Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:41 pm

What equipment? A332 or A333? Clearly A332 can make it non-stop, but the A333 would have better economics on the route.

CO flew the 764 EWR-HNL at one time and there were occasional stops at SFO and such. Can newer A333 make it? GCMAP shows 4330nm, I know AC at one point used the A333 for some pretty long TATL somewhere over 4000NM.
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
jfk777
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RE: Hawaiian To JFK - New B6 Partnership

Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:49 pm

Quoting brons2 (Reply 13):

What equipment? A332 or A333? Clearly A332 can make it non-stop, but the A333 would have better economics on the route.

CO flew the 764 EWR-HNL at one time and there were occasional stops at SFO and such. Can newer A333 make it? GCMAP shows 4330nm, I know AC at one point used the A333 for some pretty long TATL somewhere over 4000NM.

Hawiian has only A330-200 not the bigger -300. They are expanding eastward to JFK and westward to Haneda Airport in Tokyo and Seoul.
 
Av8tor
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RE: Hawaiian To JFK - New B6 Partnership

Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:53 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 12):
This is the stupidest comment I've heard in a while. Not only does it ignore the obvious and inherent benefits of cooperation between airlines which just about every airline in existence has, but why in the world would B6 want to a) fly to Hawaii, and b) want to buy a plane with that kind of range?

Well if you don't work for JetBlue, you probably wouldn't understand. If we as employees keep getting outsourced by the numerous "agreements" JetBlue keeps signing, we will never grow into larger aircraft. I don't like being outsourced, I want B6 to fly these routes.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 11):
They likely wouldn't have done that anytime soon. And I'm sure that everyone at JetBlue is completely disappointed with a new partnership that will help them fill their planes.

They certainly won't do routes like this anytime soon because they don't have to. They'll just sign another agreement like this when they want to fly somewhere new.
 
contrails15
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RE: Hawaiian To JFK - New B6 Partnership

Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:28 pm

Quoting Av8tor (Reply 10):
Do you work for JetBlue? Are you Inflight? If so, you shouldn't be so excited, you are being outsourced. Another route that B6 will never fly on their own. Less motivation to buy an aircraft with the range to fly to Hawaii.

Okay, I'm not gonna call your comment stupid but your misguided here. I say this because speaking on a forum such as this, I don't know what your background is concerning aviation business. First off I do work for B6 which has nothing to do with the fact this is a matter of B6 making itself stronger in an area in which we don't compete in. Don't know how long you've been with the company but we've been making agreements like this for years now. Its how airlines survive in modern times without having to start up a route. Especially an airline like ours where we don't have the equipment to do such a route and doesn't merit getting it. If your looking for Jetblue to aquire widebody aircraft, well don't hold your breath. Its not in their business model and to be honest makes zero sense. What department that you work for that you say we "keep on being outsourced"/ Because from someone that works for ground ops, your using that word a little to loosely for my taste. This is very good news whether you chose to believe that or not.
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Av8tor
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RE: Hawaiian To JFK - New B6 Partnership

Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:39 pm

Quoting contrails15 (Reply 16):
This is very good news whether you chose to believe that or not.

It is great news if you work for ground ops. You are actually going to benefit from this agreement. If you work above the wings, it's not so great. Just my opinion of course. And I certainly don't see the need to call people names.  
 
washingtonian
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RE: Hawaiian To JFK - New B6 Partnership

Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:49 pm

Quoting werdywerd (Reply 7):
We have 5 or 6 gates that their A330 will be able to use. In order to fit the aircraft, we will have to shutdown the neighboring gate and move the Jetway over.

How are they possibly going to do this for 3 hours in the morning peak then?

I'm surprised they can't just use that gate near the empty T6 ramp space (27)? Would that also require the use of Gate 26? If so, seems like poor (recent) planning by B6...The terminal is only 3 years old.
 
contrails15
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RE: Hawaiian To JFK - New B6 Partnership

Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:50 pm

Quoting Av8tor (Reply 17):
It is great news if you work for ground ops. You are actually going to benefit from this agreement. If you work above the wings, it's not so great. Just my opinion of course. And I certainly don't see the need to call people names.  

But who are you worried about this affecting??? No jobs are lost to this nor will jobs be in jeopardy in the future because of it. I'm not following how you figure on crew members having to worry about being outsourced through transactions such as this.
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chuchoteur
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RE: Hawaiian To JFK - New B6 Partnership

Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:53 pm

 
united75x
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RE: Hawaiian To JFK - New B6 Partnership

Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:55 pm

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 1):
B6 doesn't codeshare with anyone at this time, they do have interline agreements in place with a few carriers to facilitate connections.

We do have a codeshare with LH. They do put there flight numbers on alot of our flights.
 
contrails15
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RE: Hawaiian To JFK - New B6 Partnership

Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:59 pm

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 18):

Quoting werdywerd (Reply 7):
We have 5 or 6 gates that their A330 will be able to use. In order to fit the aircraft, we will have to shutdown the neighboring gate and move the Jetway over.

How are they possibly going to do this for 3 hours in the morning peak then?

I'm surprised they can't just use that gate near the empty T6 ramp space (27)? Would that also require the use of Gate 26? If so, seems like poor (recent) planning by B6...The terminal is only 3 years old.

Like I stated above, 27 is a widebody gate and will be used. However, the problem isn't on the ground with gate space and ground time. We can work with that. My question is having all those pax in a terminal area not designed to house that amount of people. Now, if we're not gonna use 26 which isn't needed from a ground point of view, its gonna get very crowed and uncomfortable in that gate area. Those that are familiar with the area between 25-27 upstairs know what I'm talking about.
Giants football!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Av8tor
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RE: Hawaiian To JFK - New B6 Partnership

Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:59 pm

Quoting contrails15 (Reply 19):
But who are you worried about this affecting??? No jobs are lost to this nor will jobs be in jeopardy in the future because of it. I'm not following how you figure on crew members having to worry about being outsourced through transactions such as this.

The basic problem is this: JetBlue can add hundreds of these agreements with as many airlines as they want and the employees have ZERO say in it. What prevents JetBlue from adding flights to say STL or OMA or BNA etc.. with XYZ airline? If you work for JetBlue, you should want JetBlue to grow "organically". Isn't that the term Dave always throws around? All of these agreements are not "organic" growth, they are outsourcing..... Just my opinion of course.
 
washingtonian
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RE: Hawaiian To JFK - New B6 Partnership

Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:16 pm

Quoting contrails15 (Reply 22):
Like I stated above, 27 is a widebody gate and will be used.

Thanks for the info. I'm sure that by June they will push the gate back such that 26 can be used at the same time as the A-330 is at 27. Right?

Quoting contrails15 (Reply 22):
My question is having all those pax in a terminal area not designed to house that amount of people

I'm sure they'll be spread out, and that many will be in the dining area and walking around until boarding. It will get crowded though.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Hawaiian To JFK - New B6 Partnership

Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:22 pm

Quoting brons2 (Reply 13):
AC at one point used the A333 for some pretty long TATL somewhere over 4000NM.

AC currently uses the A333 YVR-LHR (4104 nm).
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: Hawaiian To JFK - New B6 Partnership

Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:22 pm

Quoting united75x (Reply 21):


We do have a codeshare with LH. They do put there flight numbers on alot of our flights.

It appears to be one-sided however. No problem booking FRA-JFK-BUF on the LH website, but I could not book BUF-JFK-FRA on the B6 website. I guess we're both half-right.  
Next up: STL-OAK-RNO-LAS-ICT-STL
 
lhr380
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RE: Hawaiian To JFK - New B6 Partnership

Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:40 pm

Quoting Av8tor (Reply 23):
The basic problem is this: JetBlue can add hundreds of these agreements with as many airlines as they want and the employees have ZERO say in it. What prevents JetBlue from adding flights to say STL or OMA or BNA etc.. with XYZ airline? If you work for JetBlue, you should want JetBlue to grow "organically". Isn't that the term Dave always throws around? All of these agreements are not "organic" growth, they are outsourcing..... Just my opinion of course.

So your saying no airline should co-op like B6 and Hawaiian are? Your asking for the entire aviation industry to change the way it works.

Also saying it will affect jobs? Well, it has not at airlines like mine, and many other majors and minors? If anything it gets the name to places an airline will never be able to go and brings in more revenue and customers that would not normally be able to fly on the route. Is that not a good thing? In B6s case there are no jets able to operate the route and I dont see them coming for a long time yet, that would totally change the way the carrier works....
(The views on this site are my own and no one elses)
 
tharanga
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RE: Hawaiian To JFK - New B6 Partnership

Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:41 pm

Quoting contrails15 (Reply 22):
My question is having all those pax in a terminal area not designed to house that amount of people.

This seems like a very valid concern.

Quoting Av8tor (Reply 23):
JetBlue can add hundreds of these agreements with as many airlines as they want and the employees have ZERO say in it.

The problem with your argument is that you assume jetblue could fly to Hawaii, Ireland, South Africa and wherever else right now, or anytime soon, *profitably*. Maybe someday they could, but until then, they might as well partner with other airlines that can. These partnerships don't preclude jetBlue from growing to the point where they might want to operate widebodies across oceans, say 10 years down the line.

History is littered with airlines that expanded too far, too fast, and then failed. You don't want that to happen to jetBlue.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Hawaiian To JFK - New B6 Partnership

Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:06 pm

Quoting werdywerd (Reply 7):
Very Excited!

I would be too! HA is a great partner that will enhance JetBlue's reputation.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 11):
And I'm sure that everyone at JetBlue is completely disappointed with a new partnership that will help them fill their planes.

  

Quoting Av8tor (Reply 15):
I don't like being outsourced, I want B6 to fly these routes.

That I can understand. But B6 is not in the financial position to buy the A330/787/A350.

It is also only a code share. If B6 sees the route being profitable enough, they'll start to buy the aircraft. This is a low cost *and* low risk way for B6 to enter the market.

It will add jobs at B6 thanks to the transfer traffic.   

I agree with your point that this isn't 'organic growth.' To be blunt, B6 has grown too large for profitable growth without some code-sharing and they're too small to take on everyone.

B6 must keep costs down. I believe the E190 experience has made them 'gun shy' on taking on a 3rd aircraft type. But just wait... The A320NEO *should* be able to add TATL to B6's offering. So what if they lose one or two European cities due to code shares? The A320NEO won't be ready for JFK-HNL, but it will do LAX/SFO/OAK-HNL.

Give JetBlue some time. I believe B6 will use the codeshares to gain a bit of cash without the pain of brutal head to head competition initial start up would create. For example, HA was going to start HNL-JFK no matter what B6 was ready to do. I suspect that route, with hubbing on both ends, really only has room for the addition of a single A332/day right now. Since HA could have partnered with other airlines, why shouldn't B6 'trap' their customers at T5?  

I'm sure you would rather fly this route today. But if B6 had A332s today, launching a route to HNL would be a bad way to lose money. Only a HA/B6 partnership has a chance of making money. Once B6 becomes more known at HNL via the connecting traffic, Jetblue could launch flights to HNL. IMHO, they should skip the A330/787/A350 and stick with the A320NEO to minimize costs. In ten years I'll have a different opinion. Give it time.

Quoting united75x (Reply 21):
We do have a codeshare with LH.

Which has helped B6's revenue nicely.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
JAAlbert
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RE: Hawaiian To JFK - New B6 Partnership

Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:41 am

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 1):
B6 doesn't codeshare with anyone at this time, they do have interline agreements in place

For us armchair experts, such as myself, what is the difference between a codeshare agreement and interline agreement?

Quoting brons2 (Reply 13):
CO flew the 764 EWR-HNL at one time

Did Continental end its non-stop EWR-HNL service or did they just stop using the 764?

So how long is the flight from NYC to HNL? Ten hours?
 
B757jetjockey
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RE: Hawaiian To JFK - New B6 Partnership

Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:52 am

JetBlue management has been coercing B6 employees to sign addendums to their individual employment contracts with wording to the effect that B6's possible "business partners" may do some flying that B6 employees cannot and will not be able to fly or bid or get trained on said equipment. They've badgered people to sign it and most have refused and some have signed it but wrote the words "under duress" on the paperwork.

B6 is not the little darling of the airline industry. They might be growing but they are doing it on the backs of the employees and edging them out of any future growth by having them sign away any possibility of growing the airline from within. Outsourcing, plain and simple.

B6 employees are disenfranchised. The dream is over. Reality has set in today. We all know what their legal department has been up to with their games.
 
Trucker
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RE: Hawaiian To JFK - New B6 Partnership

Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:39 am

Looking at an area SSE of T5 on Google Maps it appears to be an area with hardstands. Given that it looks like this plane is going to tie up 2 gates for 3 hours during a busy time of the day would it be possible to just park this plane at one of these hardstands? Just curious.
 
JAAlbert
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RE: Hawaiian To JFK - New B6 Partnership

Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:44 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 29):
B6 must keep costs down. I believe the E190 experience has made them 'gun shy'

Lightsaber, what E190 experience did JetBlue have? Is there a thread on this topic?

Quoting b757jetjockey (Reply 31):
JetBlue management has been coercing B6 employees to sign addendums to their individual employment contracts with wording to the effect that B6's possible "business partners" may do some flying that B6 employees cannot and will not be able to fly or bid or get trained on said equipment. They've badgered people to sign it and most have refused and some have signed it but wrote the words "under duress" on the paperwork.

Why would JetBlue even require such an addendum? What is in the JetBlue employment contract that makes it's legal department feel it is necessary to add such an addendum?
 
BMI727
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RE: Hawaiian To JFK - New B6 Partnership

Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:50 am

Quoting Av8tor (Reply 15):
They certainly won't do routes like this anytime soon because they don't have to.

They aren't going to be flying those routes anytime soon regardless. Didn't Alaska codeshare on a bunch of flights to Hawaii before they started flying their themselves anyway?
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
B757jetjockey
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RE: Hawaiian To JFK - New B6 Partnership

Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:32 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 34):
Why would JetBlue even require such an addendum? What is in the JetBlue employment contract that makes it's legal department feel it is necessary to add such an addendum?

The individual contracts that B6 has its pilots sign when first employed is a sort of Independent Contractor contract. This was done in an effort to keep B6 pilots from organizing a union on the property. When B6 was small and just starting up, no one imagined that they would become as big as they are or become as successful as they have become. Some of the management types at B6 got their beginnings in the airline industry at PEx and CAL. I've run into several B6 crews and B6 interviewed pilots. The rhetoric that they use and say is exactly the same rhetoric that was used at PEx over 25 plus years ago. It does not work! It's KoolAid but just rebranded. Scary really to hear the same KoolAid. Some people bought the KoolAid when B6 was new. The effects of the KoolAid have worn off. The B6 pilots are tired of the games, the empty promises, and being misled. One B6 pilot described the airline industry as "The Gong Show"! I wholeheartedly agreed with him.

Some of the better folks who started B6 have left or retired. They saw what was coming down the pike. The rapid growth has stopped. The short time to upgrade to Captain has stopped. Things are stagnant. Now B6 management is getting cute and robbing any opportunity for career advancement out from under the feet of the very people who have worked so hard to make the company what it is today.

An extreme example of the B6 "business partner" deal would be to have the likes of LH fly "JetBlue" TATL flights under the B6 name but with LH jets, crews. B6 crews would be denied any chance of ever flying anything bigger than an A-320 and probably get stuck flying domestic and Caribbean only for the rest of their careers at B6. B6 management gets to experiment and grow the airline but at the expense of its employees.
 
jetbluefan1
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RE: Hawaiian To JFK - New B6 Partnership

Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:54 am

Quoting b757jetjockey (Reply 35):
An extreme example of the B6 "business partner" deal would be to have the likes of LH fly "JetBlue" TATL flights under the B6 name but with LH jets, crews. B6 crews would be denied any chance of ever flying anything bigger than an A-320 and probably get stuck flying domestic and Caribbean only for the rest of their careers at B6. B6 management gets to experiment and grow the airline but at the expense of its employees.

I understand your point of view, especially since there is a sense of loyalty. However, you need to consider that a.) JetBlue never offered you the opportunity to fly anything beyond the US borders or Caribbean (and WN crew members don't seem to mind) and b.) management needs to keep the company profitable. Let's keep in mind that virtually every US airline has been through Ch. 11 bankruptcy once or twice. If JetBlue needs to adjust its strategy to ally with other carriers, and thus keep itself profitable, then so be it. Also, keep in mind that we are just coming out of a MAJOR recession. I can imagine the extra revenue generated from interline and code share agreements has been particularly helpful and perhaps the difference between profit or less more often than not, especially given B6's thin margins.
 
HAL
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RE: Hawaiian To JFK - New B6 Partnership

Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:19 am

Quoting Trucker (Reply 32):
Looking at an area SSE of T5 on Google Maps it appears to be an area with hardstands. Given that it looks like this plane is going to tie up 2 gates for 3 hours during a busy time of the day would it be possible to just park this plane at one of these hardstands? Just curious.

It can easily take 2+ hours to turn a widebody after an 11 hour flight (cleaning, catering, servicing, unloading & reloading the baggage, boarding passengers, fueling, ETOPS check, etc). It wouldn't make sense to do half of it, then pull it aside for an hour or less, then back to the gate. Especially considering the ramp congestion at JFK, they might not even make it to the hardstand before they'd have to turn around to head back to the gate.

HAL
One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
 
HALFA
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RE: Hawaiian To JFK - New B6 Partnership

Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:37 am

Here is a slide show of todays events from Terminal 5 at JFK, including my flying partners at HA donning uniforms from the past.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jetblue...50853183/in/set-72157629000118679/

Aloha,
HALFA
HA J Class Lie flats, coming soon to a plane near you........
 
jayhup
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RE: Hawaiian To JFK - New B6 Partnership

Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:45 pm

Quoting jetbluefan1 (Reply 36):
The B6 pilots are tired of the games, the empty promises, and being misled. One B6 pilot described the airline industry as "The Gong Show"! I wholeheartedly agreed with him.

So what are the empty promises? How are they being misled?

How are the last ten years at JetBlue and different than any other start-up business in any other industry?

Some have failed miserably and some have succeeded wildly.

I would put JetBlue in the very successful category considering their growth and profitability.

What do the pilots have to complain about?

They are flying state of the art aircraft to international destinations with their terminal at JFK the toast of the travel world.

So far it seems to be working.
 
jetbluefan1
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RE: Hawaiian To JFK - New B6 Partnership

Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:18 pm

Quoting jayhup (Reply 39):
What do the pilots have to complain about?

They are flying state of the art aircraft to international destinations with their terminal at JFK the toast of the travel world.

I know you meant to quote the b757jetjockey and not me, but I agree with you. I would allude to the fact that JetBlue pilots have spawned unionization THREE TIMES now to show that B6 management is definitely doing something right. I also don't think that crew members should complain about the destinations they fly to - for a relatively small airline, the breadth of B6's Caribbean and Central American route network is quite impressive.
 
richierich
Posts: 3282
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2000 5:49 am

RE: Hawaiian To JFK - New B6 Partnership

Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:30 pm

Quoting Av8tor (Reply 23):
The basic problem is this: JetBlue can add hundreds of these agreements with as many airlines as they want and the employees have ZERO say in it. What prevents JetBlue from adding flights to say STL or OMA or BNA etc.. with XYZ airline? If you work for JetBlue, you should want JetBlue to grow "organically". Isn't that the term Dave always throws around? All of these agreements are not "organic" growth, they are outsourcing..... Just my opinion of course

I didn't want to jump in here but I think there is something very wrong with your 'logic'.
B6 does not have and is not buying aircraft capable of flying to Hawaii, even from the WC I believe, so do you think they should? Just to eliminate codeshares and interlines? Please consider that a new equipment type is a VERY expensive proposition requiring millions of dollars of maintenance parts and tools, training, certification, extra headcount at headquarters, and of course then you have to pay for the aircraft themselves. It is not part of Jetblue's immediate future and it would KILL the company if they were to do that right now. Let me repeat, it would all but kill B6 if they took on a dozen A330s right now. I can only imagine the addition of the A321 in the near future is causing fits.

So while you are worrying about your job being "outsourced", I don't think you see the big picture. HNL is a long way from LAX and SFO, and obviously a very long way from JFK. It is a route JetBlue was never looking to fly and probably never will be able to fly. But that's OK, isn't it? Now that Jetblue is hosting a well-respected partner airline in HA, both airlines should benefit from the synergies this brings. And that's what this business is all about.
None shall pass!!!!
 
jayhup
Posts: 412
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:22 pm

RE: Hawaiian To JFK - New B6 Partnership

Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:36 pm

Quoting jetbluefan1 (Reply 40):
I know you meant to quote the b757jetjockey and not me,

Apologies...I hit the wrong @#$%^& button.

I think JetBlue have taken some chances in the destinations that they are flying to and I think that says a lot about where the airline is headed.

Having some insight as to how the crew are treated in comparison to other carriers I would say that they are doing pretty well.
 
delta2ual
Posts: 558
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:18 pm

RE: Hawaiian To JFK - New B6 Partnership

Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:04 pm

Quoting contrails15 (Reply 19):
Quoting Av8tor (Reply 17):
It is great news if you work for ground ops. You are actually going to benefit from this agreement. If you work above the wings, it's not so great. Just my opinion of course. And I certainly don't see the need to call people names.  

But who are you worried about this affecting??? No jobs are lost to this nor will jobs be in jeopardy in the future because of it. I'm not following how you figure on crew members having to worry about being outsourced through transactions such as this.

I may be naive, but doesn't it work both ways? If HA flies JFK-HNL (and B6 doesn't) and B6 flies up and down the east coast (and HA doesn't) isn't it a wash? I think HA would have started this flight with or without the B6 partnership. If each airline is feeding paxs between each other, I would think that's a good thing. Now if HA extends their HNL-JFK flight to BOS and B6 cuts capacity to codeshare with HA, then I could see the argument being made.
From the world's largest airline-to the world's largest airline. Delta2ual
 
B6JFKH81
Posts: 1962
Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 6:35 am

RE: Hawaiian To JFK - New B6 Partnership

Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:36 pm

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 33):
Lightsaber, what E190 experience did JetBlue have? Is there a thread on this topic?

You would have to look back to the 2006 time frame for the threads. The E190 had very bad "teething issues", so bad that ExpressJet was contracted out to fly some of the routes while E190's were taken out of service to go through heavy modification lines where multiple service bulletins were implimented to increase reliability. The E190 today has a much improved dispatch reliability, but it is still an expensive plane to fly and maintain. Unfortunately, it's the price of doing business when you decide to be the operational launch customer of a new aircraft type.
"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
 
BMI727
Posts: 11093
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: Hawaiian To JFK - New B6 Partnership

Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:40 pm

Quoting delta2ual (Reply 43):
I may be naive, but doesn't it work both ways?

Very much so, which is why the whole argument is ridiculous.

And using the word "outsourcing" is very much misleading, since there is zero chance that had this agreement not been made JetBlue would be flying to Hawaii themselves.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Trucker
Posts: 62
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 4:17 pm

RE: Hawaiian To JFK - New B6 Partnership

Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:57 pm

Quoting HAL (Reply 37):
It can easily take 2+ hours to turn a widebody after an 11 hour flight (cleaning, catering, servicing, unloading & reloading the baggage, boarding passengers, fueling, ETOPS check, etc). It wouldn't make sense to do half of it, then pull it aside for an hour or less, then back to the gate. Especially considering the ramp congestion at JFK, they might not even make it to the hardstand before they'd have to turn around to head back to the gate.

I was thinking more like park the plane at the remote stand the entire time it's there and bus the passengers to and from T5. I see T4 also has remote stands nearby. Are passengers loaded and unloaded at these stands and bused to and from T4 or are the stands just there to park planes at between flights or overnight?
 
cargolex
Posts: 1201
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 5:20 pm

RE: Hawaiian To JFK - New B6 Partnership

Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:07 pm

Quoting Av8tor (Reply 10):
Do you work for JetBlue? Are you Inflight? If so, you shouldn't be so excited, you are being outsourced. Another route that B6 will never fly on their own. Less motivation to buy an aircraft with the range to fly to Hawaii.

I guess I don't understand this perspective.

I fly AS most of the time and not B6, owing to my location and the fact that I really like AS. When I don't fly AS, B6 is my top choice if the route allows. They're similar airlines in many respects.

Both of these airlines do what they do really well - but a move into acquiring 777s for AS or A330s for B6 and starting long-haul or international ops would involve going waaaay off the respective models that both of these carriers have established for themselves.

Think about it. Both carriers operate one mainline jet (737/A320) and one regional aircraft (Q400 for AS/QX, E190 for B6), They serve domestic and some not-too-distant international routes, and they are regionally strong with a variety of transcontinental routes (B6 has more than AS). Both are profitable, well run carriers that know their game really well.

A partnership with an airline like Hawaiian makes sense for B6, because there is no way B6 could ever justify the expense of gaining a wide-body type for a route like JFK-HNL. Similarly, there's no way AS would ever bother to buy a 777 so it could fly to a middle east destination or Europe by itself. Far better to partner with EK, DL, AA, or AF who have already invested in that metal (because it fits their operations) and who are now going to feed into the system as well as get pax out of it.

Venturing into wide-body operations and long haul involves significant changes to the business model for either of these carriers. Organic growth is one thing, but going in this direction would be more than that. It would be a serious change to the mission, the costs, and the operation as a whole.
 
contrails15
Posts: 371
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:46 pm

RE: Hawaiian To JFK - New B6 Partnership

Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:49 pm

Quoting Trucker (Reply 46):
I was thinking more like park the plane at the remote stand the entire time it's there and bus the passengers to and from T5. I see T4 also has remote stands nearby. Are passengers loaded and unloaded at these stands and bused to and from T4 or are the stands just there to park planes at between flights or overnight?

T4 hardstand are used for uploading and offloading of rev. flights. Buses are used and pax are taken to the commuter terminal where Independence used to run out of. I've done lots of hardstand fights. Its great for use but sucks for customer service. Happens all the time in the evening as it can get very busy and gate space is limited. We(B6) usually get the short end of the stick and end up doing flights on the hardstands mainly because we are "guests" and the IAT for what ever reason love to bust our balls. As for doing a 330 at T5, like I have mentioned gate 27 will be most likely used. Its out of the way and there is plenty of room. Not to mention spot 14 is really the only place you can push it off the gate too without interrupting movements. If your going out Delta, spot 14 is to the left. Those first two hardstands will have to be vacant and spot moved a little more centered so the wing doesn't go over the service road but that will be its spot. IMO Whats really gonna suck is dumping inbound bags. Its a one sided belt so you can fit barely 4 cans, dump them and go back for the rest. Terminals like T4 are set up for the heavies with two sided belts so if one side is busy dumping you just pull up on the other side. Bags times are gonna suffer because of this.
Giants football!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
atrude777
Posts: 4258
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:23 pm

RE: Hawaiian To JFK - New B6 Partnership

Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:56 pm

Quoting jetbluefan1 (Reply 36):
(and WN crew members don't seem to mind)

However, WN Pilots and SWAPA have forbidden code-sharing for the specific purpose because it is "outsourcing"

SWAPA wants Southwest to do the flying or they don't sell it/fly it (via code share) at all.

This is the general situation, the wording gets quite specific pertaining to routes, and different regions.

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!

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