rjm777ual
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Top Ten Things Airlines Don't Tell You

Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:31 pm

Found this interesting

http://away.com/top-ten-travel/away....s-themselves-sidwcmdev_154874.html

Let me know what you think!   
Greetings from Dulles!
 
Rdh3e
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RE: Top Ten Things Airlines Don't Tell You

Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:39 pm

These two are interesting:

3. Your Co-Pilot Could be More Experienced Than You Think
"The turmoil of the airline industry over the last 20 years or so has caused many airlines to go out of business or shrink in size, thus laying off massive numbers of employees. If an airline captain loses his job at one airline and goes to another, he or she will start over as a co-pilot at entry-level pay and will be given no credit for their experience."

2. The Air Isn't Immune to Office Romances
"All the crew stays at the same hotel, but I remember a couple years ago the pilots' wives pushed for flight attendants to be at a different hotel than the pilots because they didn't want to make it easy for their husbands to cheat."


#3 because it could also be absolutely the other way. And #2, isn't that kind of a backhand to pilots as kind of insulting the whole groups moral compass?
 
rjm777ual
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RE: Top Ten Things Airlines Don't Tell You

Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:53 pm

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 1):
Quoting RDH3E (Reply 1):
These two are interesting:

3. Your Co-Pilot Could be More Experienced Than You Think
"The turmoil of the airline industry over the last 20 years or so has caused many airlines to go out of business or shrink in size, thus laying off massive numbers of employees. If an airline captain loses his job at one airline and goes to another, he or she will start over as a co-pilot at entry-level pay and will be given no credit for their experience."

2. The Air Isn't Immune to Office Romances
"All the crew stays at the same hotel, but I remember a couple years ago the pilots' wives pushed for flight attendants to be at a different hotel than the pilots because they didn't want to make it easy for their husbands to cheat."


#3 because it could also be absolutely the other way. And #2, isn't that kind of a backhand to pilots as kind of insulting the whole groups moral compass?

Yeah i thought #3 was interesting too! Your Copilot could be completely inexperienced.
Greetings from Dulles!
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: Top Ten Things Airlines Don't Tell You

Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:23 pm

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 1):
3. Your Co-Pilot Could be More Experienced Than You Think

It may also not having to do with layoffs or switching companies. Senior First Officers, who are very capable of bidding up to Captain, can and do sometimes choose to stay as First Offices for scheduling reasons. Maybe they make less money but are far higher on the seniority list and ca get a much better choice of routes and days off than if they upgraded to Captain.
 
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TWA772LR
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RE: Top Ten Things Airlines Don't Tell You

Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:33 am

The one about the seat belt sign shouldn't even be on there because someone who is that stupid who doesn't wear their seatbelt during severe turbulence and then complains about injuries and then complains about the flight crew "not warning them about the situation" shouldn't be allowed to fly. I absolutely HATE stupidity like that!

The one about pilots using the lavs gets at me too. Pilots are human also and all humans have their natural needs.

Also, if spouses are worried about their pilot spouses cheating, then don't marry him/her.

Sorry, had to get that out of my system.
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rjm777ual
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RE: Top Ten Things Airlines Don't Tell You

Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:48 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 4):
The one about the seat belt sign shouldn't even be on there because someone who is that stupid who doesn't wear their seatbelt during severe turbulence and then complains about injuries and then complains about the flight crew "not warning them about the situation" shouldn't be allowed to fly. I absolutely HATE stupidity like that!

The one about pilots using the lavs gets at me too. Pilots are human also and all humans have their natural needs.

Also, if spouses are worried about their pilot spouses cheating, then don't marry him/her.

Sorry, had to get that out of my system.

I agree. It's really obvious what they mean when they put the sign there.
Greetings from Dulles!
 
canoecarrier
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RE: Top Ten Things Airlines Don't Tell You

Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:00 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 3):
It may also not having to do with layoffs or switching companies. Senior First Officers, who are very capable of bidding up to Captain, can and do sometimes choose to stay as First Offices for scheduling reasons. Maybe they make less money but are far higher on the seniority list and ca get a much better choice of routes and days off than if they upgraded to Captain.

There are many, many airlines where an A330 FO makes much more than he would if he took a Captain spot on an A320.

The thing I always tell my friends is that the #1 thing you don't know about airlines is that many times the same mop that cleans the galley cleans the lav and not in that particular order. Don't ever walk around either with your shoes off.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
ghifty
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RE: Top Ten Things Airlines Don't Tell You

Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:16 am

Interesting list!!

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 6):
The thing I always tell my friends is that the #1 thing you don't know about airlines is that many times the same mop that cleans the galley cleans the lav and not in that particular order. Don't ever walk around either with your shoes off.

Why would you walk around in what is, essentially, a public place barefoot anyways?
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m11stephen
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RE: Top Ten Things Airlines Don't Tell You

Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:31 am

Quote:
2. The Air Isn't Immune to Office Romances
"All the crew stays at the same hotel, but I remember a couple years ago the pilots' wives pushed for flight attendants to be at a different hotel than the pilots because they didn't want to make it easy for their husbands to cheat."

There is SOOO much drama in the airlines. I probably hear more gossip and deal with more drama during a typical day at work then I ever did during high school.
My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
 
canoecarrier
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RE: Top Ten Things Airlines Don't Tell You

Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:09 am

Quoting ghifty (Reply 7):
Why would you walk around in what is, essentially, a public place barefoot anyways?

Never underestimate the traveling public.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Top Ten Things Airlines Don't Tell You

Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:27 am

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 6):
The thing I always tell my friends is that the #1 thing you don't know about airlines is that many times the same mop that cleans the galley cleans the lav and not in that particular order. Don't ever walk around either with your shoes off.

I guess I'm just not squeamish. Why would I care? They're the bottoms of my feet. I'm not going to lick them...
-Doc Lightning-

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luckyone
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RE: Top Ten Things Airlines Don't Tell You

Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:57 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):

Schistosomiasis comes to my paranoid mind. Granted the chance of that bug being on an airplane is lower than the odds of the wing falling off the airplane, but strange things do happen from time to time.
 
ghifty
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RE: Top Ten Things Airlines Don't Tell You

Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:00 am

Co-pilots more experienced than pilots? Interesting, often times my "substitute" teachers are more knowledgable than my actual teachers.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 9):
Never underestimate the traveling public.

I stepped in poo in the planes loo.. can I sue?      
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FlyHossD
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RE: Top Ten Things Airlines Don't Tell You

Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:22 am

I was a bit surprised to find no mention of crew fatigue. Not only the dangers of the fatigue (and the accidents that resulted), but also the impact on the lives and health of the crews.

[Edited 2012-01-23 22:45:34]
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HAL
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RE: Top Ten Things Airlines Don't Tell You

Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:35 am

Quoting rjm777ual (Reply 2):
Yeah i thought #3 was interesting too! Your Copilot could be completely inexperienced.

'Completely inexperienced'?? Hardly. You're not going to board any airliner today with an inexperienced co-pilot. It's one of the hardest industries in the world to break in to, and you have to get a lot of experience as an instructor, cargo pilot, or other position before any major airline will even consider interviewing you. Then, you have to make yourself stand out from the other several thousand applicants before they hire you to fill one of a handful of positions. After you make it on, you will go through several weeks to a few months of ground school and simulator training, an oral exam and checkride before they even let you touch an airplane. Once you do start flying, it's with an instructor pilot in the left seat who will check your ability, and teach you the details of day-to-day flying before he turns you loose with the 'regular' pilots.

Inexperienced? Yeah, right.  

HAL
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blueflyer
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RE: Top Ten Things Airlines Don't Tell You

Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:51 am

Quoting HAL (Reply 14):
you have to get a lot of experience as an instructor, cargo pilot, or other position before any major airline will even consider interviewing you.

Thousands of people fly every day in and out of the US on carriers that no one would call a major airline. Some of them have inexperienced pilots, no matter how much you may protest, whether it is because they secured their position through a "pay-to-fly" scheme, the airline is too quick to hire to fuel its growth, or nepotism played a part. As a professional, you may not like it, as a frequent flyer, I certainly hate it, but it happens.

[Edited 2012-01-23 23:11:41]
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kiwiinoz
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RE: Top Ten Things Airlines Don't Tell You

Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:44 am

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 1):
2. The Air Isn't Immune to Office Romances
"All the crew stays at the same hotel, but I remember a couple years ago the pilots' wives pushed for flight attendants to be at a different hotel than the pilots because they didn't want to make it easy for their husbands to cheat."

I used to run a hotel that accommodated the CX cabin crew, and the tech crew definitely stayed in a seperate property. Didn't stop some of them shagging like bunnies though.

[Edited 2012-01-23 23:45:16]
 
spudsmac
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RE: Top Ten Things Airlines Don't Tell You

Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:43 pm

What cockpit was that photo taken in? Must be a turboprop or something; I've never seen it before.
 
futureualpilot
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RE: Top Ten Things Airlines Don't Tell You

Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:45 pm

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 1):
And #2, isn't that kind of a backhand to pilots as kind of insulting the whole groups moral compass?

One of the biggest faults with our seniority system is that you can have a 25yr veteran Captain with thousands of hours of safe flying and experience under his belt who is unfortunate to have his company crumble and he suddenly has to start over at the very bottom somewhere else. At the very least in most other lines of work you can use your experience to negotiate a pay rate to reflect your expertise.
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spudsmac
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RE: Top Ten Things Airlines Don't Tell You

Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:03 pm

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 18):
One of the biggest faults with our seniority system is that you can have a 25yr veteran Captain with thousands of hours of safe flying and experience under his belt who is unfortunate to have his company crumble and he suddenly has to start over at the very bottom somewhere else. At the very least in most other lines of work you can use your experience to negotiate a pay rate to reflect your expertise.

Which is why I'm not even considering working for the airlines even though I have the hours and education. I'm holding out for a corporate gig.
 
71Zulu
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RE: Top Ten Things Airlines Don't Tell You

Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:18 pm

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 6):
There are many, many airlines where an A330 FO makes much more than he would if he took a Captain spot on an A320.

Really? Can you name one? I checked a few and found quite the opposite. Now I know there is a little extra money for international travel but the hourly rates are not that close:

DL
320 CA - 175
330 FO - 146

US
320 CA - 125
330 FO - 109

AC
320 CA - 175
330 FO - 151

HA
717 CA - 162
330 FO - 133
Clickable links only please!
 
delta2ual
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RE: Top Ten Things Airlines Don't Tell You

Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:25 pm

Quoting ghifty (Reply 7):
Why would you walk around in what is, essentially, a public place barefoot anyways?

You'd be surprised. I have seen many people walk barefoot into the lavs. I've seen them cut their toenails in First Class. I think it's kind of gross-but to each their own.
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futureualpilot
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RE: Top Ten Things Airlines Don't Tell You

Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:28 pm

Quoting spudsmac (Reply 19):
Which is why I'm not even considering working for the airlines even though I have the hours and education. I'm holding out for a corporate gig.

Good luck, I hope it works out for you. I certainly wouldn't say no if the right corporate gig came along.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 6):
There are many, many airlines where an A330 FO makes much more than he would if he took a Captain spot on an A320.

Not sure about the international carriers but to the best of my knowledge all US based carriers bottom Captain pay rate is higher than the top FO pay rate. That isn't to say that some FOs don't out-earn Captains based on hours flown and how they work their contracts but looking at straight hourly pay I haven't seen one where an FO earns more per hour than a Captain.

[Edited 2012-01-24 08:30:02]
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AA777223
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RE: Top Ten Things Airlines Don't Tell You

Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:52 pm

Quoting 71Zulu (Reply 20):
Really? Can you name one? I checked a few and found quite the opposite. Now I know there is a little extra money for international travel but the hourly rates are not that close:

Man, those guys at US, look like they are a little behind the 8-ball. Ouch...
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nordair737242c
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RE: Top Ten Things Airlines Don't Tell You

Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:53 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
I guess I'm just not squeamish. Why would I care? They're the bottoms of my feet. I'm not going to lick them...

What you dont while flying....strange.....   

Quoting ghifty (Reply 12):
I stepped in poo in the planes loo.. can I sue?

of course for a number two.....   
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canoecarrier
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RE: Top Ten Things Airlines Don't Tell You

Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:58 pm

Quoting 71Zulu (Reply 20):
Really? Can you name one? I checked a few and found quite the opposite. Now I know there is a little extra money for international travel but the hourly rates are not that close:

During the AF 447 discussion Pihero noted that one of the copilots made more as a senior FO on the AF long haul division on the A330 then he would have had he made the seat change to captain and flown A320s around Europe. Basically, he could have bid for a command slot on the 320 but salaries for a captain in the first years of short haul didn't compete with his FO salary on the 330.

As a result, this article is correct in noting that the FO may be more experienced than the public knows. In that specific example the FO had three times the experience of the captain.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
flight152
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RE: Top Ten Things Airlines Don't Tell You

Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:00 pm

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 23):

Man, those guys at US, look like they are a little behind the 8-ball. Ouch...

Way to wake up and smell the coffee. US pay has been shit for some time.

Quoting ghifty (Reply 12):
Co-pilots more experienced than pilots? Interesting,

Last I checked "copilots" (as you put it) ARE pilots. Can we please call them first officers?
 
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readytotaxi
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RE: Top Ten Things Airlines Don't Tell You

Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:03 pm

As with most things the public would like to to think, "on the job they are professionals" off the job they are "on the job"  
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ckfred
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RE: Top Ten Things Airlines Don't Tell You

Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:36 pm

I thought legacy carriers still provided first class meals to pilots. A friend of mine flies for AA, and he still gets food, assuming that First gets a meal or snack.

As for turbulence, pilots have been saying for years that you should keep the seatbelt on at all times. I remember that as a kid back in the 1970s.
 
oksman
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RE: Top Ten Things Airlines Don't Tell You

Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:55 pm

Quoting luckyone (Reply 11):
Schistosomiasis comes to my paranoid mind. Granted the chance of that bug being on an airplane is lower than the odds of the wing falling off the airplane, but strange things do happen from time to time.

Trust me, you won´t get schistosomiasis by walking barefoot on a plane....this kind of paranoia is like fear of flying....when you learn how it works (how a plane flies and how you get schistosomiasis) you won´t fear anymore.

 

Denis
 
BMI727
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RE: Top Ten Things Airlines Don't Tell You

Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:58 pm

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 18):
One of the biggest faults with our seniority system is that you can have a 25yr veteran Captain with thousands of hours of safe flying and experience under his belt who is unfortunate to have his company crumble and he suddenly has to start over at the very bottom somewhere else.

I'm generally a big critic of seniority systems, but for pilots, what better way could there be? They all have to be great at what they do. What metric besides experience could possibly be used to determine what pilots deserve more pay and the first opportunity to bid routes? It can't be safety, since every pilot is expected to be perfect in that department. It can't be on time performance since that's out of the pilots' control and could lead to cutting corners.

There is recurrent training and checkrides, but those serve to weed out pilots who are not up to par. Among those that are, there really isn't a practical way to tell who is the best and most deserving of promotion. Seniority seems to be the best way to do it, although I'm not going to sit here and say that a senior captain at an airline is necessarily a more skilled pilot or better decisionmaker than a 22 year old in the Israeli Air Force for instance.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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AA777223
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RE: Top Ten Things Airlines Don't Tell You

Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:18 pm

Quoting Flight152 (Reply 26):
Way to wake up and smell the coffee. US pay has been shit for some time.

No need to be rude. While I love aviation, I don't exactly go around examining the pay scales of the major US carriers. Some of us do have other things to worry about.
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futureualpilot
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RE: Top Ten Things Airlines Don't Tell You

Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:42 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 30):
I'm generally a big critic of seniority systems, but for pilots, what better way could there be?

Its a double edge sword, to be certain. I'm not opposed to a national seniority list, but I also know that it while it might solve this issue, it will create many more.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 30):
What metric besides experience could possibly be used to determine what pilots deserve more pay and the first opportunity to bid routes? It can't be safety, since every pilot is expected to be perfect in that department.

Nothing comes to mind, hours, types of aircraft flown/typed in, previous flying experience (i.e. civilian, military, etc.), pay at the previous job would likely be the best metric to use as well as one's skill at negotiating. Far from perfect but its an idea.
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contrails15
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RE: Top Ten Things Airlines Don't Tell You

Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:33 pm

Fragile stickers don't mean anything. You can put as many as you want. You just have to hope it touches the hands with people that give a dam.
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Francoflier
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RE: Top Ten Things Airlines Don't Tell You

Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:28 pm

Quoting spudsmac (Reply 17):
What cockpit was that photo taken in? Must be a turboprop or something; I've never seen it before.

Hmmm... The switches and dials look suspiciously Britishaerospacey, but it's not a J31 or 41.

I think it could be an early Gulfstream II...
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
Scipio
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RE: Top Ten Things Airlines Don't Tell You

Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:32 pm

Quoting ghifty (Reply 7):
Why would you walk around in what is, essentially, a public place barefoot anyways?

Why would you waste time putting your shoes on and off every time you get out of your seat? And climbing over your sleeping neighbor is a lot easier without shoes...

I've walked around planes in my socks many times, admittedly I never did so completely barefoot and nowadays I usually carry a pair of hotel-style disposable slippers with me for use in the airplane.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 9):
Never underestimate the traveling public.

In many cultures, it is considered rude to walk around in shoes indoors. Why don't we all take our shoes off when entering a plane? Planes would be cleaner and a lot more cozy...

One of the oddities of life in the US is that people don't seem to ask themselves or their hosts any questions when they walk into a house and proceed to the living room without taking their shoes off...

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
I guess I'm just not squeamish. Why would I care? They're the bottoms of my feet. I'm not going to lick them...

  
 
spudsmac
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RE: Top Ten Things Airlines Don't Tell You

Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:02 pm

Quoting Scipio (Reply 35):

In many cultures, it is considered rude to walk around in shoes indoors. Why don't we all take our shoes off when entering a plane? Planes would be cleaner and a lot more cozy...

There's some people that I don't want to have walking around without shoes on.
 
bwaflyer
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RE: Top Ten Things Airlines Don't Tell You

Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:56 pm

Quoting spudsmac (Reply 36):

There's some people that I don't want to have walking around without shoes on.

Please please please wear shoes when using the lavs. I am constantly amazed by the number of people who are queueing for the loos in bare feet or just wearing socks. As much as we try, we can't clean the toilets between each use, and the floor is not always particularly dry!

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