tommy767
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Lost Mainline Flights For UA/CO At CLE

Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:39 pm

Just bumming around at flightaware and I've noticed that some destinations don't see mainline anymore from CLE like they did in the past: LGA, BOS, DCA, BWI to name a few. I'm sure there are plenty of others that used to see CO 737s in the past that don't anymore.

Some destinations still see it: FLL, EWR, IAH, LAX, LAS, PHX, ORD, DEN etc.

Also I want to point out that as of april CLE-MCO/LAX/SFO will be operated by airbusses as opposed to the 737s and in certain cases, 753s which we currently see now.

So what's next on the chopping block at CLE? Some say DEN is going to go first but there really isn't that much more mainline to cut at CLE anymore!
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
codc10
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RE: Lost Mainline Flights For UA/CO At CLE

Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:50 pm

Quoting TOMMY767 (Thread starter):
BWI

At one point, BWI saw a 757-300 that typically ran BWI-CLE-LAS and return.

Sporadic mainline comes back to BOS and LGA in the next few months, however.
 
flight152
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RE: Lost Mainline Flights For UA/CO At CLE

Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:52 pm

Quoting TOMMY767 (Thread starter):
CLE like they did in the past: LGA, BOS

LGA still sees a daily mainline 738.
 
tommy767
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RE: Lost Mainline Flights For UA/CO At CLE

Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:18 pm

Quoting Flight152 (Reply 2):

not seeing it for today -- only ERJs...
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
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hhslax2
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RE: Lost Mainline Flights For UA/CO At CLE

Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:58 pm

Didn't the merger only guarantee "hub" status at CLE through 2012? If so, are we likely to see a lot of cuts starting January 2013?
 
tommy767
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RE: Lost Mainline Flights For UA/CO At CLE

Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:39 pm

Quoting hhslax2 (Reply 4):

Didn't the merger only guarantee "hub" status at CLE through 2012? If so, are we likely to see a lot of cuts starting January 2013?

Im not sure but I thought it was some 5 year guarantee or something....

Not too many regional cuts thus far though.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
flight152
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RE: Lost Mainline Flights For UA/CO At CLE

Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:23 am

 
SurfandSnow
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RE: Lost Mainline Flights For UA/CO At CLE

Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:51 am

The interesting thing about the CLE hub is that it has never hosted much mainline service, aside from hub-hub, Florida, and the West Coast. Many major business markets like ATL, ORD, PHL, DTW, etc. have seen little more than pithy 50 seat RJ service for the last decade or so. On the other hand, recently de-hubbed markets like PIT (US), STL (TW/AA), SJU (AA), LAS (HP/US), and the nearly de-hubbed CVG (DL) and MEM (NW/DL) all had significant levels mainline service into the mid-2000s. These markets had so many flights at their peak that it took years of cuts to eliminate all of the flights, with many markets getting downgraded to outsourced RJs before being eliminated entirely. I think CLE is almost at a point where it could be cut in one fell swoop, a la DL at DFW.
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xms3200
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RE: Lost Mainline Flights For UA/CO At CLE

Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:03 am

I am sure there are a lot of CO CLE employees that think the CLE hub wil last forever and give them a really good retirement. CLE really is out of touch with reality
 
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xms3200
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RE: Lost Mainline Flights For UA/CO At CLE

Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:16 am

Maybe now, with AA declaring bankruptcy, and even, highly respected SWA and it's CEO talking about cost structure will the CLE employees realize they are overpaid for flinging bags or tearing tickets and telling pax. to have a good day. This might be a rude awakeninig for CLE.
 
USAirALB
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RE: Lost Mainline Flights For UA/CO At CLE

Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:16 am

CO flew CLE-BDL seasonally for quite some time, and they flew ALB-CLE seasonally as well.
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ncflyer
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RE: Lost Mainline Flights For UA/CO At CLE

Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:23 am

what's interesting to me is that many non-hub airports such as CMH and PIT seem to offer as many seats to the major business destinations as CLE. CMH easily has as many or more seats to ATL and LGA and DFW. This to me is proof the "hub" is sized for the local market and not connecting pax.

xms3200 I don't get your point or your evidence that CLE is out of touch with reality-- people in CLE starting with business and local leaders are well aware how tenuous the hub is here.
 
CIDFlyer
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RE: Lost Mainline Flights For UA/CO At CLE

Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:29 am

Quoting ncflyer (Reply 11):
what's interesting to me is that many non-hub airports such as CMH and PIT seem to offer as many seats to the major business destinations as CLE. CMH easily has as many or more seats to ATL and LGA and DFW. This to me is proof the "hub" is sized for the local market and not connecting pax.

xms3200 I don't get your point or your evidence that CLE is out of touch with reality-- people in CLE starting with business and local leaders are well aware how tenuous the hub is here.

perhaps this might be reason enough for CLE to stick around if its right sized as it is? Is there any evidence that CO/UA doesnt make money at CLE? Even at best its a pretty minimal hub, more like a large focus city, but would they just pull the plug on capturing all that traffic they have now and hand it over to other airlines or an LCC to expand? I guess that remains to be seen...
 
tommy767
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RE: Lost Mainline Flights For UA/CO At CLE

Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:05 pm

Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 12):

Smisek told CLE "you are not god" which basically means screw you (if the opportunity calls for it.)

No real need for CLE mini hub to exist other than connections to a few great lakes and rust belt destinations -- most of that can easily be handed by ORD.

As said, CO never treated CLE like a real hub either. It had a brief expansion period in 2007 and 2008 and was quickly drawn back. So much for "alleviating" the EWR hub.

On the bright side, O&D is strong at CLE so maybe they won't be in such a rush to downsize it.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
ScottB
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RE: Lost Mainline Flights For UA/CO At CLE

Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:37 pm

Quoting ncflyer (Reply 11):
what's interesting to me is that many non-hub airports such as CMH and PIT seem to offer as many seats to the major business destinations as CLE. CMH easily has as many or more seats to ATL and LGA and DFW. This to me is proof the "hub" is sized for the local market and not connecting pax.

That's not an entirely accurate analysis, as the "major business destinations" you cite are generally also hub airports, and as such, they carry connecting traffic on other carriers from CMH to destinations where CO/UA still offers non-stop service from CLE (i.e. CMH lacks non-stops to SFO, and clearly AA is going to be carrying some CMH passengers to SFO via DFW). There's also a bit of a mismatch to ATL & LGA in that FL captures a big chunk of Northeast Ohio traffic to those airports at CAK, without a similar alternative at CMH.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Lost Mainline Flights For UA/CO At CLE

Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:43 pm

EWR partially explains why CLE never saw a significant mainline presence to the East Coast. CO didn't need a massive connecting hub at CLE to provide access to the East Coast like DTW did for NW. They had EWR.
 
SANFan
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RE: Lost Mainline Flights For UA/CO At CLE

Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:49 pm

Gosh, does this mean that perhaps SAN will lose our ~ 12 flights per year (around Christmas?) I've never been sure if this route even deserves to be classified as "seasonal" or not. (I know that SDIA's web site doesn't list it as such, or even as a nonstop destination from SAN.)

Win a few, lose a few.

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joeman
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RE: Lost Mainline Flights For UA/CO At CLE

Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:59 am

Quoting xms3200 (Reply 8):
I am sure there are a lot of CO CLE employees that think the CLE hub wil last forever and give them a really good retirement. CLE really is out of touch with reality

Source?

Quoting xms3200 (Reply 8):
Maybe now, with AA declaring bankruptcy, and even, highly respected SWA and it's CEO talking about cost structure will the CLE employees realize they are overpaid for flinging bags or tearing tickets and telling pax. to have a good day. This might be a rude awakeninig for CLE.

Your typically rude comment...paid higher than those at other CO locations or something?
 
masseybrown
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RE: Lost Mainline Flights For UA/CO At CLE

Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:34 am

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 13):
On the bright side, O&D is strong at CLE so maybe they won't be in such a rush to downsize it.

Yields are too. 23.09 cents/mile at CLE, compared to 17.28 at DEN for Q2, 2011. RJs actually have a shot at making money in CLE.
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: Lost Mainline Flights For UA/CO At CLE

Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:40 pm

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 7):


The interesting thing about the CLE hub is that it has never hosted much mainline service

If you go back far enough, CO/CLE was primarily 737/DC-9 service with a few Brasilias thrown in.

http://www.departedflights.com/CLE89intro.html
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Northwest727
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RE: Lost Mainline Flights For UA/CO At CLE

Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:30 pm

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 7):
The interesting thing about the CLE hub is that it has never hosted much mainline service, aside from hub-hub, Florida, and the West Coast.

I disagree. Having grown up in CLE, and living under the (then) 23L approach, I plainly remember seeing DC-9s, 737s, 727s, and MD-80s going into CLE. Regionals were fewer and consisted of mostly EMB-120s and B-1900Ds. Then about late 1997 into 1998, the ERJs started to appear, and little did I know at the time, that was the beginning of the end for mainline service at CLE.
 
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calpsafltskeds
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RE: Lost Mainline Flights For UA/CO At CLE

Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:21 pm

Quoting SANFan (Reply 16):
Gosh, does this mean that perhaps SAN will lose our ~ 12 flights per year (around Christmas?) I've never been sure if this route even deserves to be classified as "seasonal" or not. (I know that SDIA's web site doesn't list it as such, or even as a nonstop destination from SAN.)

Within a few days, those flights booked up. CO used to run a evening west/redeye east, but when the east was changed to a daytime flight its days were numbered as the redeye required no airplane time.
Too bad UA can't run at least a summer CLE-SAN service. It would sell, even if the yield was low.
Regarding CLE, if the RJs make money, why pull the plug? CO/UA own CLE and have a good FF base. WN has little presence there. Yields must be good and I doubt CMH is a high yielding market. My wife's relatives seem to book into CAK or CMH at times due to lower prices.
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N766UA
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RE: Lost Mainline Flights For UA/CO At CLE

Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:43 pm

Quoting xms3200 (Reply 8):
CLE really is out of touch with reality

What?! CLE knows exactly where it belongs and what it's capable of, that's why it's perfectly happy with the level of service it's had for years. It's the people who think EWR and ORD are superior alternatives that are out of touch. You realize that Newark is quite possibly the worst airport on the planet, right? And that ORD runs hours-long delays constantly? You think the people who want to cram themselves through these miserable chokepoints are more "in touch" than people who see an easier alternative at CLE?

We're such knee-jerk reactionaries on this forum. PIT lost its hub, and it did so OBVIOUSLY. When CLE starts taking 40%+ cuts, then we can have this discussion. In the meantime, though, Cleveland has seen ups and downs for the entire time it's been a CO hub. It never had the level of mainline service other hubs had, and it never had 300+ flights. If UA can "right-size" Cleveland, they'll keep it. If they can't, they'll drop it- it's the same for any business ever conceived of in a capitalist market. It's obnoxious to see "UA replaced a 737 with an ERJ oh surely it's the end of Cleveland they're just too stupid to see it" constantly.
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joeman
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RE: Lost Mainline Flights For UA/CO At CLE

Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:24 am

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 18):
Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 13):
On the bright side, O&D is strong at CLE so maybe they won't be in such a rush to downsize it.

Yields are too. 23.09 cents/mile at CLE, compared to 17.28 at DEN for Q2, 2011. RJs actually have a shot at making money in CLE.
Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 13):
Smisek told CLE "you are not god" which basically means screw you (if the opportunity calls for it.)

Has he given DEN a similar arrogant and condescending speech?
 
tommy767
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RE: Lost Mainline Flights For UA/CO At CLE

Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:30 am

Quoting joeman (Reply 23):

Has he given DEN a similar arrogant and condescending speech?

I don't think he has. Only CLE because the hub being squished between ORD, EWR, and IAD led to questions by the city of whether UA will abandon the hub.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
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enilria
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RE: Lost Mainline Flights For UA/CO At CLE

Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:36 am

Quoting hhslax2 (Reply 4):
Didn't the merger only guarantee "hub" status at CLE through 2012? If so, are we likely to see a lot of cuts starting January 2013?

I believe they are released in October 2012 or around there.
 
joeman
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RE: Lost Mainline Flights For UA/CO At CLE

Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:45 am

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 24):
I don't think he has. Only CLE because the hub being squished between ORD, EWR, and IAD led to questions by the city of whether UA will abandon the hub.

(I think you're right...) But the highly publicized negative attention given by the local media surrounding that speech is the only thing I can think of to endear the airline to all of CLE admin, business, and traveling public and it can surely only explain the following:

Quoting xms3200 (Reply 8):
..there are a lot of CO CLE employees that think the CLE hub wil last forever and give them a really good retirement. CLE really is out of touch with reality
 
gigneil
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RE: Lost Mainline Flights For UA/CO At CLE

Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:28 am

CLE is a great connecting facility.

If they can make money there, great. If they cannot, dump it immediately.

In this economy nobody "deserves" anything. Ya know?

NS
 
joeman
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RE: Lost Mainline Flights For UA/CO At CLE

Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:31 pm

Quoting gigneil (Reply 27):
CLE is a great connecting facility.

If they can make money there, great. If they cannot, dump it immediately.

In this economy nobody "deserves" anything. Ya know?

NS

I agree completely (same should be true for any other facility) and end the decade or more years of threats that have soured CLE dedication
 
izbtmnhd
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RE: Lost Mainline Flights For UA/CO At CLE

Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:26 pm

Quoting TOMMY767 (Thread starter):

What's the news here Tommy? Are you surprised DEN is seeing cuts before CLE? The object is profitability, right? Could it be that with 8 US hubs, maybe DEN is not as viable as it once was? Looking at other threads, it seems a concept that some folks are finding hard to grasp. The idea, espoused during the initial days of the merger, that somehow once CLE gets cut all the other hubs would either keep or increase their service levels made zero sense to me. The merger is not about route map symmetry.

Also, let's be honest, the agreement with Ohio's AG Office has already passed a few benchmarks which would allow a drawdown of the CLE operation but there has very been little in terms of cuts. If CLE was really bleeding cash from the beginning, UA would have cut their losses without going along with this agreement and could have fought whatever legal battle Ohio or Cleveland would have thrown at them. I don't like predicting the future so I'm not saying they're going to keep the hub, just saying that if they wanted to cut-and-run they could have already.

Finally, are you just looking at January? Not exactly the strongest month for any hub.

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 7):

The growth of FL at CAK is why you see 'pithy' RJs. It also moots your point about comparing all the other defunct hubs becuase they didn't have a second airport in the same market trying to take away pax. How many times does it need to be repeated that there are two commercial pax airports in NE Ohio?

Quoting joeman (Reply 23):

I wonder how he feels about that speech now. All the real estate boom towns have gone into the toilet since the recession. The Cleveland metro has an unemployment rate lower than Houston. Airport wide O&D is 77%. Seems like the business community is delivering. In hindsight, there were much better ways to deliver the message.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 27):

Nobody stuck a gun in the back of Smisek when they agreed to the AG deal. Nobody in Cleveland thought they deserved the hub, that was Smisek trying to sound 'tough'.

[Edited 2012-01-27 06:29:53]
 
 
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STT757
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RE: Lost Mainline Flights For UA/CO At CLE

Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:55 pm

A lucrative part of PMCO, now UA's, business is in catering to the energy sector. Northeast Ohio and Western Pennsylvania , according to some, is on the cusp of a huge boom in oil and Natural gas exploration due to "fracking". The shale boom is single handily responsible for the revival of the steel industry in the area, they are actually building new modern steel mills in Ohio after decades of closures.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...ates-jockey-for-fracking-jobs.html

I think it would be prudent for UA to stick around in CLE if for nothing else to see if the shale boom is for real.
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fun2fly
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RE: Lost Mainline Flights For UA/CO At CLE

Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:59 pm

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 29):
The growth of FL at CAK is why you see 'pithy' RJs. It also moots your point about comparing all the other defunct hubs becuase they didn't have a second airport in the same market trying to take away pax. How many times does it need to be repeated that there are two commercial pax airports in NE Ohio?

Not sure of your point here, but let's remember what CAK is...1mm pax and CLE is 11mm pax. If CAK closes, WN and DL and UA would simply just move that capacity to CLE. There are 12mm pax that need to leave NE Ohio.

While we're on the subject, will UA close its CAK hub?
 
tommy767
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RE: Lost Mainline Flights For UA/CO At CLE

Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:56 pm

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 29):

What's the news here Tommy? Are you surprised DEN is seeing cuts before CLE? The object is profitability, right? Could it be that with 8 US hubs, maybe DEN is not as viable as it once was? Looking at other threads, it seems a concept that some folks are finding hard to grasp. The idea, espoused during the initial days of the merger, that somehow once CLE gets cut all the other hubs would either keep or increase their service levels made zero sense to me. The merger is not about route map symmetry.

Whoa, calm down there. I actually stuck up for CLE in saying that the O&D is strong so they might keep it around. DEN is a whole different animal (not trying to create a pun with Frontier but it just happened) and portions of the operation has already been downsized -- BUT -- it serves a major purpose. DEN is optimal for connections to the upper mountain west including Colorado seasonal ski destinations. They compete directly with DL at SLC, and arguably UA is larger at DEN even with the cuts. Yes there is competition with WN (frontier is not as much of a competitor as it used to be) but UA holds the corporate contracts and is extremely appealing to those who want to sit in a premium cabin. That's not changing.

What is changing is some flow traffic into Denver will switch up, hence the cuts. Some PMUA destinations that used to be DEN hub and spoke prone (particularly Florida) have switched over to IAH -- but it only makes sense. Not cut completely, just cut down. Notably TPA, MCO, BOS, MSY etc. Some destinations such as BWI, EWR, DCA, LGA, PIT have not seen much change with frequency into DEN. Denver to Mexico has also increased. Many of these upper mountain west ski destinations are not accessable from IAH, they are definitely not going to run an E145 on routes such as these. Those days are over.

While CLE is strong, they just have that factor where too many larger hubs are surrounding it posing a risk of shutdown. I don't know if and when that will be, but it's nice that CLE holds their own and hopefully it will be spared.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
eldanno
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RE: Lost Mainline Flights For UA/CO At CLE

Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:52 pm

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 19):
If you go back far enough, CO/CLE was primarily 737/DC-9 service with a few Brasilias thrown in.

http://www.departedflights.com/CLE89....html


On the other hand, by the early 90's you could catch an A300 to DEN or EWR. Other big birds came in as well if I recall correctly.

[Edited 2012-01-27 09:54:25]

[Edited 2012-01-27 09:54:57]
 
joeman
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RE: Lost Mainline Flights For UA/CO At CLE

Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:06 pm

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 30):
A few folks working hard to make the hub stay in CLE.

http://www.gcpartnership.com/Economi...Development/United-for-United.aspx


CLE-Hub-Forum-01-27-12.aspx" target="_blank">http://www.gcpartnership.com/Events/...ed-for-CLE-Hub-Forum-01-27-12.aspx

Nice...I would include the hard working CLE CO employees (torn a new one in the disgraceful replies # 8 and 9 of this thread) who've won performance awards and to whom my heart goes out for having had their dedication and emotions played with in this cat and mouse game for way to many years...Although I'll admit there hasn't been any near recent public threats that I know of, only on this forum....

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