RP TPA
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Air Canada Express To Start YYZ-JFK

Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:07 pm

Air Canada express will begin 3x daily YYZ-JFK in May. In addition, YYZ-LGA goes to hourly.

(courtesy of AirCanada.ca) http://aircanada.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=505
 
cyeg66
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RE: Air Canada Express To Start YYZ-JFK

Wed Jan 25, 2012 4:39 pm

Sheesh. A not unexpected tit-for-tat with WS securing LGA slots I suppose, but 2 measly flights a day from western canada to NY?!? It's B.S, man. Enjoy (more) RJ flights, easterners.... Yippie-kai-yay!
slow to 160, contact tower, slow to 160, contact tower, slow to....ZZZZZZZ......
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada Express To Start YYZ-JFK

Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:43 pm

I wondered what took AC so long to jump back into YYZ-JFK. DL operates 3 daily and AA 4 daily on YYZ-JFK already.

The Toronto-New York market is now so fragmented:
AC: YYZ-JFK/LGA/EWR
AA: YYZ-LGA/JFK
UA: YYZ-EWR
DL: YYZ-JFK
PD: YTZ-EWR

Soon: WS: YYZ-LGA.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
cnz3
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RE: Air Canada Express To Start YYZ-JFK

Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:16 pm

Can anyone confirm that these flights will be at Terminal 7? No FIS is required, but I don't think anywhere else at the airport will be any better for them than their old haunt at T7.
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yowza
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RE: Air Canada Express To Start YYZ-JFK

Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:26 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 2):
The Toronto-New York market is now so fragmented:
AC: YYZ-JFK/LGA/EWR
AA: YYZ-LGA/JFK
UA: YYZ-EWR
DL: YYZ-JFK
PD: YTZ-EWR

Soon: WS: YYZ-LGA.

Too bad LAN dropped this hop   It could have been very eclectic indeed.

YOWza
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: Air Canada Express To Start YYZ-JFK

Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:29 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 2):
The Toronto-New York market is now so fragmented:

Good for New York and Toronto! That means more options and competition.  

That said, re JFK: no doubt AA and DL are feeding their hubs. Will there be demand for service from JFK to the YYZ hub? Pax can do that now through LGA-YYZ flights. What will JFK offer AC pax on either end that LGA doesn't?

Jim
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corinthians
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RE: Air Canada Express To Start YYZ-JFK

Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:45 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 2):
I wondered what took AC so long to jump back into YYZ-JFK. DL operates 3 daily and AA 4 daily on YYZ-JFK already.

Did AC ever fly JFK-YYZ? I don't recall that they ever have. I know they flew YVR/YYC-JFK, but those were switched over to EWR a few years ago.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Express To Start YYZ-JFK

Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:06 pm

Quoting corinthians (Reply 6):
Did AC ever fly JFK-YYZ? I don't recall that they ever have.

Yes, in the 1960s and 1970s. In fact at one point, JFK was AC's only New York destination.

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Viscount724
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RE: Air Canada Express To Start YYZ-JFK

Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:39 pm

Quoting cyeg66 (Reply 1):
but 2 measly flights a day from western canada to NY?

Those markets aren't huge and quite seasonal. A lot of the nonstop EWR-YVR traffic is summer Alaska cruise traffic. Also have to consider that CX operates daily JFK-YVR and CO has a seasonal summer nonstop EWR-YVR. For EWR-YYC, the single daily nonstops on AC and WS are probably plenty for the year-round market.

Quoting corinthians (Reply 6):
Did AC ever fly JFK-YYZ? I don't recall that they ever have.
Quoting longhauler (Reply 7):
Quoting corinthians (Reply 6):
Did AC ever fly JFK-YYZ? I don't recall that they ever have.

Yes, in the 1960s and 1970s. In fact at one point, JFK was AC's only New York destination.

For years from the '50s through the '70s I'm sure AC was the largest foreign operator at JFK in terms of frequency. They used the BA terminal when it opened and were also the largest operator there (in frequency).. After JFK (then IDL) opened, all international services were forced to move from LGA in the early 1950s.

I'm sure AC would have preferred to stay at LGA but they had no choice. It took them over two decades before they obtained permission to move back to LGA (except longhaul flights to YVR/YYC which stayed at JFK due to the LGA perimeter rule; those flights moved from JFK to EWR a couple of years ago).

After AC was forced to move to IDL/JFK, AA had a competitive advantage. While AA's New York-Toronto nonstops also had to move to IDL, they also operated YYZ-BUF so most of their YYZ-New York flights were one-stops YYZ-BUF-LGA. AC had no way to match that. Many passengers found AA's one stops via BUF more convenient than AC' nonstops to IDL.
 
corinthians
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RE: Air Canada Express To Start YYZ-JFK

Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:13 pm

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 5):
Good for New York and Toronto! That means more options and competition.

I fly this route a lot and you’d be surprised how expensive it is in spite of there being multiple carriers, multiple frequencies over a very short duration. It’s often cheapest (although still not cheap) flying US Air to YYZ via PHL or CLT. Did the PHL connection before and will NEVER do it again.

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 5):
That said, re JFK: no doubt AA and DL are feeding their hubs. Will there be demand for service from JFK to the YYZ hub? Pax can do that now through LGA-YYZ flights. What will JFK offer AC pax on either end that LGA doesn't?

JFK is more convenient for a lot of people, myself included. These days, I usually fly to YYZ from JFK and normally take DL. This flight is usually full, so there is a market. NY is a big city after all and LGA is too small to service everyone. Personally, I think LGA’s “convenience” factor is overrated.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 8):
I'm sure AC would have preferred to stay at LGA but they had no choice. It took them over two decades before they obtained permission to move back to LGA (except longhaul flights to YVR/YYC which stayed at JFK due to the LGA perimeter rule; those flights moved from JFK to EWR a couple of years ago).

JFK-YVR/YYC flights were fairly recent and only lasted about a year before being switched over. I remember AC flying YYC-EWR back in the 80’s up to the early 90’s. Not sure about YVR.
 
connies4ever
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RE: Air Canada Express To Start YYZ-JFK

Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:25 pm

Quoting corinthians (Reply 9):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 8):
I'm sure AC would have preferred to stay at LGA but they had no choice. It took them over two decades before they obtained permission to move back to LGA (except longhaul flights to YVR/YYC which stayed at JFK due to the LGA perimeter rule; those flights moved from JFK to EWR a couple of years ago).

JFK-YVR/YYC flights were fairly recent and only lasted about a year before being switched over. I remember AC flying YYC-EWR back in the 80’s up to the early 90’s. Not sure about YVR.

For a while in the 70s & 80s AC also flew YVR-YWG-JFK, DC-8s and/or DC-9s.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: Air Canada Express To Start YYZ-JFK

Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:48 am

Quoting cyeg66 (Reply 1):
Enjoy (more) RJ flights, easterners.... Yippie-kai-yay!

Flew EV on YUL-EWR-YUL with an E145 for my fam flight last October......Never again ! Company dished out nearly 1000 big ones for 2 hours worth of flying.

The E190 on YYC-EWR doesn't sound too appealing either cowboy !

Thenoflyzone
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washingtonian
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RE: Air Canada Express To Start YYZ-JFK

Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:39 am

Glad to see them back at JFK. All the EWR fan boys made a huge deal when AC moved their daily YVR flight a few years ago and closed JFK...
 
corinthians
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RE: Air Canada Express To Start YYZ-JFK

Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:00 am

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 11):

The E190 on YYC-EWR doesn't sound too appealing either cowboy !

I take that flight at least once a year. The plane isn't all that bad, actually. Quite comfortable.

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 12):
Glad to see them back at JFK. All the EWR fan boys made a huge deal when AC moved their daily YVR flight a few years ago and closed JFK...

They switched because CO had just joined Star and it made more sense for AC to consolidate at EWR rather than operate at three different airports. And apparently, they contracted JFK UAL staff to handle those flights and that cost quite a bit more.
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: Air Canada Express To Start YYZ-JFK

Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:16 am

Quoting corinthians (Reply 13):
I take that flight at least once a year. The plane isn't all that bad, actually. Quite comfortable.

Sure, doesn't come close to being as bad as the E135 or 145's, but after sitting in an E Jet or RJ, you truly appreciate all the comfort and room a 738 or A320 has to offer, even if it happens to be on WG, with a bunch of drunksters going down to CUN Big grin

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2012-01-25 20:17:12]
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slcdeltarumd11
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RE: Air Canada Express To Start YYZ-JFK

Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:27 am

There are always people who live closer to that airport for example a good chunk of Long Island. Also there are people that just prefer an airport aka i always use JFK or the airtran stops there so its easier for me than LGA.

Lets see if the demand is large enough to support JFK too, time will tell. The market is pretty large between Toronto and NYC they are so close in miles that you see quite alot of business connections, traffic, and people flying down for the day. I have done tons of day trips from EWR and LGA to both Montreal and Toronto so if an airport was a little closer to where i needed to go i would use it. Its probably just a nice additional option for AC on a popular route and worth a shot to see if they can rake in some cash on a route that uses little plane time or fuel.
 
Airontario
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RE: Air Canada Express To Start YYZ-JFK

Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:50 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 14):

Sure, doesn't come close to being as bad as the E135 or 145's, but after sitting in an E Jet or RJ, you truly appreciate all the comfort and room a 738 or A320 has to offer, even if it happens to be on WG, with a bunch of drunksters going down to CUN

Thenoflyzone

I'll take an E-175/90 any day over a A320. No chance of a middle seat, the seat feels wider, huge windows, etc. Whats not to like?
 
beeweel15
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RE: Air Canada Express To Start YYZ-JFK

Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:10 pm

Quoting RP TPA (Thread starter):
Air Canada express will begin 3x daily YYZ-JFK in May. In addition, YYZ-LGA goes to hourly.

(courtesy of AirCanada.ca) http://aircanada.mediaroom.com/index...m=505

Out of curiosity when did they end these flights cause I remember seeing an AC EMB175 parked up at T7 late in the night.
 
RJLover
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RE: Air Canada Express To Start YYZ-JFK

Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:40 pm

Quoting airontario (Reply 16):
I'll take an E-175/90 any day over a A320. No chance of a middle seat, the seat feels wider, huge windows, etc. Whats not to like?

Amen to that!

Quoting beeweel15 (Reply 17):
Out of curiosity when did they end these flights cause I remember seeing an AC EMB175 parked up at T7 late in the night.

I don't have a specific date for you (although I'm sure someone else will!), but we have diverted into JFK occasionally. Mostly due to LGA or EWR WXX being down....
Last Flight(s): YHZ-YHM-YUL-YHZ Next Flight(s):
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: Air Canada Express To Start YYZ-JFK

Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:26 pm

Quoting airontario (Reply 16):
I'll take an E-175/90 any day over a A320. No chance of a middle seat, the seat feels wider, huge windows, etc. Whats not to like?

I hate the fact that there is no middle seat, because when you have a wife and kid, which is my case, you come to appreciate that middle seat. Also cabin is taller on the A319/320, which in my case (6 ft +), comes in handy.

Thenoflyzone
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cyeg66
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RE: Air Canada Express To Start YYZ-JFK

Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:36 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 19):

I hate the fact that there is no middle seat, because when you have a wife and kid, which is my case, you come to appreciate that middle seat. Also cabin is taller on the A319/320, which in my case (6 ft +), comes in handy.

You kiddin'? Sounds like the perfect opportunity to let the Mrs. deal with the kid.    Try travelling with 4 kids, someday. (You workin' on that yet?) Also, I don't know about you but I typically don't spend the flight standing. Off topic, I know.
slow to 160, contact tower, slow to 160, contact tower, slow to....ZZZZZZZ......
 
threepoint
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RE: Air Canada Express To Start YYZ-JFK

Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:06 pm

It's funny: people's perceptions of the smaller aircraft. Do many people actually realize that the economy seats are wider and further apart in AC's Embraers than in the Airbus narrowbodies? I guess they equate exterior dimensions with interior space. I have seen plenty of very tall people sit inside the Y cabins of either, none of whom were in any danger of bumping their heads against overhead bins, ceilings, curved fuselage walls etc.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada Express To Start YYZ-JFK

Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:53 pm

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 5):
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 2):
The Toronto-New York market is now so fragmented:

Good for New York and Toronto! That means more options and competition.

I agree.....keeps prices low. Can't wait for WS to enter the market.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 7):
Yes, in the 1960s and 1970s. In fact at one point, JFK was AC's only New York destination.

AA flew the Electra and 707 against the AC Vanguard on YYZ-JFK.  
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 10):
For a while in the 70s & 80s AC also flew YVR-YWG-JFK, DC-8s and/or DC-9s.

I have an AC sked from the early 70's and it shows a DC-8-40/50 on YWG-JFK. On that note, I'm surprised CO never added YWG from EWR (even with a daily E145 as they did with YQM, YYT, YQB).

Quoting threepoint (Reply 21):
Do many people actually realize that the economy seats are wider and further apart in AC's Embraers than in the Airbus narrowbodies?

Not to mention that boarding and de-boarding is quicker on smaller aircraft, and no middle sets on the Embraers.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
AirNovaBAe146
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RE: Air Canada Express To Start YYZ-JFK

Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:23 pm

Speaking of AC service to the NYC area, I want to say Air Georgian/Air Alliance (third tier Air Canada connector) flew YYZ - HPN in the early 2000s with B1900s.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Express To Start YYZ-JFK

Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:41 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 22):
AA flew the Electra and 707 against the AC Vanguard on YYZ-JFK.

You are probably too young, but I remember the Vanguard well. Economy seats wider than present day AA MD80 First Class seats, and took only 10 minutes longer than a DC-8 to fly YYZ-YUL. Those RR Tynes had a very distinctive growl to them, and I fondly listen to You Tube videos on line.

On the down side, I also remember flying on the Vanguard ANU-BDA-YUL-YYZ ... and all day affair, in comparison to the 4 1/2 hours when a DC-8 flew ANU-YYZ nonstop.

But back to the YYZ-JFK route. When AC first got the DC-9s, YYZ-ORD, YYZ-JFK and YUL-JFK were among the first routes flown in competition with the jet flying Americans.
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connies4ever
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RE: Air Canada Express To Start YYZ-JFK

Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:58 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 24):
You are probably too young, but I remember the Vanguard well. Economy seats wider than present day AA MD80 First Class seats, and took only 10 minutes longer than a DC-8 to fly YYZ-YUL. Those RR Tynes had a very distinctive growl to them, and I fondly listen to You Tube videos on line.


As Ace McCool of Down East International would say of the Vanguard, the "Ultimate Airplane". I loved it, despite the pronounced vibration issue near the wing. Too bad it was 2 years delayed.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
wumzi
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RE: Air Canada Express To Start YYZ-JFK

Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:34 pm

Quoting threepoint (Reply 21):
It's funny: people's perceptions of the smaller aircraft. Do many people actually realize that the economy seats are wider and further apart in AC's Embraers than in the Airbus narrowbodies? I guess they equate exterior dimensions with interior space. I have seen plenty of very tall people sit inside the Y cabins of either, none of whom were in any danger of bumping their heads against overhead bins, ceilings, curved fuselage walls etc.

I flew AC express this past weekend from YUL to YTC, and was shocked at the amount of leg room I had! I'm 6'0" tall and was able to comfortably cross my feet without any trouble. Seatguru doesn't have a listing for their Q400, anyone have an idea of what the seat pitch is supposed to be?
 
Viscount724
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RE: Air Canada Express To Start YYZ-JFK

Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:11 pm

Quoting wumzi (Reply 26):
I flew AC express this past weekend from YUL to YTC, and was shocked at the amount of leg room I had! I'm 6'0" tall and was able to comfortably cross my feet without any trouble. Seatguru doesn't have a listing for their Q400, anyone have an idea of what the seat pitch is supposed to be?

You probably mean YTZ. I also used them YTZ-YUL last October and was very impressed with the seating space. I think it's about the same as Porter. Not often you can easily cross your legs on a regional turboprop.

Seat map from AC website here. Pitch is 34 inches on the left side of the aisle and 33 inches on the right side.
http://aircanada.com/en/about/fleet/dh4.html

The SkyRegional Q400s operated YUL-YTZ are more spacious than the Jazz Q400s which have one more row of seats and 31 inch pitch.
http://aircanada.com/en/about/fleet/q400.html
 
Viscount724
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RE: Air Canada Express To Start YYZ-JFK

Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:44 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 24):
You are probably too young, but I remember the Vanguard well. Economy seats wider than present day AA MD80 First Class seats,

Only AC's which had quite spacious 5-abreast seating in Y class. BEA's Vanguards were 6-abreast in Y with rather narrow seats.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 25):
As Ace McCool of Down East International would say of the Vanguard, the "Ultimate Airplane". I loved it, despite the pronounced vibration issue near the wing. Too bad it was 2 years delayed.

It was my recollection that entry into service was planned for 1960. TCA put their first Vanguards into service February 1, 1961. Were they really 2 years late?
 
ZBBYLW
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RE: Air Canada Express To Start YYZ-JFK

Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:58 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 19):
Also cabin is taller on the A319/320, which in my case (6 ft +),

I am 6'5" and I prefer the E90 as the leg room on it is far superior to the 320 product. In fact I would take a E90 over anything on AC is I am sitting in Y. While the 767, 777 and 330 may be comfortable the E90 is by far the best in Y.
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Express To Start YYZ-JFK

Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:27 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 28):
BEA's Vanguards were 6-abreast in Y with rather narrow seats.

As someone once said to me, "Britons are smaller than North Americans anyway!" Looking at 7 abreast in a Trident, one has to hope so!

But I looked with interest at this photo. As this is the only time I had seen an actual photo of a BEA Vanguard ... lots of drawings and seat maps, just no photos ... and yes, that looks pretty tight.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Dan Clark



But looking at this photo, quite a few things are apparent. One is that looking at the galley module abeam the aft passenger door, clearly the cabin was designed for 2x3 and not 3x3 as it is offset, much like the early B747s. Also, I am amazed at how different the cabin is, compared to AC/TC. Things that I would have though to be Vickers produced are very different, like cabin lighting, and PSUs below the overhead racks on BEA unlike inside the overhead racks on AC/TC.

Great to see the red wings of BEA reflecting into the cabin!

[Edited 2012-01-26 15:32:47]
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
connies4ever
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RE: Air Canada Express To Start YYZ-JFK

Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:08 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 28):
It was my recollection that entry into service was planned for 1960. TCA put their first Vanguards into service February 1, 1961. Were they really 2 years late?


I think from program launch to EIS it was 2 years.

- aircraft as originally designed had a significant stall problem requiring redesign of the stabiliser;
- RR Tyne engines themselves were problematic with icing being a problem.

IIRC.

Had it been on time, I wonder if this would have goosed some sales.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Air Canada Express To Start YYZ-JFK

Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:11 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 30):
But I looked with interest at this photo. As this is the only time I had seen an actual photo of a BEA Vanguard ... lots of drawings and seat maps, just no photos ... and yes, that looks pretty tight.

Only the first 6 of BEA's 20 Vanguards had F class. I think the configurtion was 30 F and 89 Y. Those were the early low-gross weight Vanguard 951s. After TCA convinced Vickers to increase the gross weight by 7,000 lbs on their 952s, BEA did the same for their remaining 14 Vanguards which became known as 953s. The 953s were all-Y.

TCA's were delivered with only 90 seats (46 F and 50 Y), but with Y then taking over as the dominant product, the F class cabin was reduced by 1963 to 18 seats in the rear cabin and (I believe) 91 Y for a total of 109. Vanguards operated by charter carriers in their later years often had the maximum certificated 139 seats.

The Vanguard is the only aircraft type where I've flown on one operated by every original customer -- both of them.   My very first trip to Europe in early 1970, soon after I joined CP, included a BEA Vanguard AMS-LHR (or LHR-AMS, forget which direction...the other direction was a Trident). I only made it on 2 AC Vanguards - YVR-YEG in 1963 (when still TCA) and YOW-YUL in 1967. On that 1963 trip, the westbound flight YEG-YVR was on a TCA DC-8-40, my first flight on a jet.
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: Air Canada Express To Start YYZ-JFK

Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:13 am

Quoting cyeg66 (Reply 20):
Try travelling with 4 kids, someday. (You workin' on that yet?)

4, no way man. 2, for sure. Wife wants 3, and i told her count yourself lucky you're getting two !

Quoting cyeg66 (Reply 20):
I don't know about you but I typically don't spend the flight standing

you know what, more and more, i do stand in the isle and stretch out a bit.

Thenoflyzone
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Express To Start YYZ-JFK

Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:32 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 32):
18 seats in the rear cabin and (I believe) 91 Y for a total of 109.

Close, it was 18F and 90Y for 108, except in the Caribbean where seats 5AB were removed and life rafts placed instead on a skid, for 88Y and 18F.

The only other Vanguard I flew on was a 952 of Merpati, just before the type was retired from passenger service. The cabin layout was almost identical to the final one at AC. Odd, considering (if I recall) the aircraft has been with EAS between them and AC.

You could always tell the 952 from the 951/953 by the location of the door latches ... funny what sticks in your mind!
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Express To Start YYZ-JFK

Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:55 am

I keep hearing a lot of horror stories about the drive to BUF from the Toronto area. Weather is so unpredictable in the winter, and traffic can be a problem in summer.

Although, even lately, as Customs wait times are on traffic reports, I have been hearing of delays over 120 minutes.

The only feasible solution I have heard, is several hotels in the BUF area are offering a room for one night, with a week's parking included for about $100. Go to BUF the day before, and it is still less than the cost of parking at YYZ!
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
kiramakora
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RE: Air Canada Express To Start YYZ-JFK

Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:07 am

I look forward to seeing what WS does with the LGA slots. That would really liven things up.
 
connies4ever
Posts: 3393
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:54 pm

RE: Air Canada Express To Start YYZ-JFK

Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:47 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 32):
TCA's were delivered with only 90 seats (46 F and 50 Y), but with Y then taking over as the dominant product, the F class cabin was reduced by 1963 to 18 seats in the rear cabin and (I believe) 91 Y for a total of 109. Vanguards operated by charter carriers in their later years often had the maximum certificated 139 seats.

The F cabin at the back was cool because a) seats were comfier and had I believe more legroom, and b) it was much quieter. One trip that sticks out was YHZ-YQM-YYZ in I believe 1963. There was even a steak dinner.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.