connies4ever
Topic Author
Posts: 3393
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:54 pm

YVR Trying To Attract More Asia/Pacific Traffic

Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:40 am

Article from the Globe and Mail on YVR ambitions:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ia-pacific-traffic/article2315293/

My basic question would be: from where ?

China is a given, even though China Eastern, from PVG, and Air China, from PEK, and Cathay, from HKG already serve YVR. I would think CAN would be likely with CZ. After that, more frequency I suppose. I can't think of other cities that would generate enough traffic to directly feed YVR.

Korea ? Already served, and after ICN, there really isn't another destination.

Japan ? Already served, but I believe only from NRT. KIX and/or NGO might be able to generate sufficient traffic, but given the state of the economy, I'm doubtful for at least five years.

Philippines ? Already served and this would be mostly a low-yield market.

Oz ? Well, QF ceded the market to AC and there does not seem to be any indication that they will re-enter. AC might have a go at YVR-MEL once the 787s arrive. Perhaps JQ or VA might make a stab at it for the low cost market.

NZ ? Already served and it's possible AC might try once the 787s arrive.

So, then, there's Indonesia, Singapore (lots of history on that file), Malaysia, Thailand, and India. Most of these would be Canada-driven, I'd think, except for India, as there isn't a lot of economic connection between Canada and these nations.

YVR are making a big investment on this ($1.8B) so I assume they have done some homework.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
IndianicWorld
Posts: 2799
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2001 11:32 am

YVR Trying To Attract More Asia/Pacific Traffic

Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:59 am

I don't see YVR-MEL working, given the length and likelihood of low yielding traffic. They tried it once before and it lasted a short time and things may be different this time but I have my doubts.

China is the big focus for nearly all airports within range at the point in time. That's the obvious target to look at.
 
JoeCanuck
Posts: 3948
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:30 am

YVR Trying To Attract More Asia/Pacific Traffic

Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:06 am

I'm thinking China and India.
What the...?
 
NUAir
Posts: 1144
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2000 4:24 am

YVR Trying To Attract More Asia/Pacific Traffic

Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:07 am

Thailand may be interesting. PTT is shipping plenty of people back and forth to their investments in Canadian oil sands so a connection in Vancouver would actually be pretty convenient and these would be business class pax. Not sure if it would justify daily service but maybe there is enough other economic connections between Canada and Thailand to make it work or just through STAR connections for AC and TG?
"How Many Assholes we got on this ship?" - Lord Helmet
 
connies4ever
Topic Author
Posts: 3393
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:54 pm

YVR Trying To Attract More Asia/Pacific Traffic

Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:25 am

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 1):
I don't see YVR-MEL working, given the length and likelihood of low yielding traffic. They tried it once before and it lasted a short time and things may be different this time but I have my doubts.

AC operating into MEL didn't last long. Started in 2001, ended in 2002. Basically 9/11 and an economic cooling off killed it. Also, the flight was YYZ-HNL-MEL on a 763, scissoring with the then YVR-HNL-SYD (also 763) in HNL. A n/s YVR-MEL 787 has a much better chance of success, esp. if the YVR departure can be dovetailed with the daily YYZ-YVR-SYD service.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
tayser
Posts: 397
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:49 pm

RE: YVR Trying To Attract More Asia/Pacific Traffic

Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:06 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 4):
A n/s YVR-MEL 787 has a much better chance of success, esp. if the YVR departure can be dovetailed with the daily YYZ-YVR-SYD service.

originating a new YVR-MEL flight in YUL would make it even more attractive from both ends - full widebody services between all 5 cities.

current YYZ-YVR-SYD-YVR-YYZ

8:20 pm → 10:15 pm YYZ-YVR S M T W T F S Air Canada 33
11:45 pm → 10:20 am YVR-SYD S M T W T F S Air Canada 33
12:15 pm → 7:25 am SYD-YVR S M T W T F S Air Canada 34
9:00 am → 4:20 pm YVR-YYZ S M T W T F S Air Canada 34

potential YUL-YVR-MEL-YVR-YUL

7:45 pm → 10:00 pm YYZ-YVR S M T W T F S Air Canada XXX (AC129 currently on 320)
11:25 pm → 10:30 am YVR-MEL S M T W T F S Air Canada XXX
12:30 pm → 8:00 am MEL-YVR S M T W T F S Air Canada XXX
9:30 am → 5:00 pm YVR-YYZ S M T W T F S Air Canada XXX (AC150 currently on 320)

the arrival back in Montreal ties in well for the plane to go through some maintenance then operate a European leg in the evening assuming 4-5 planes will eventually be based there.

YUL-YVR is about 20 minutes longer than YYZ-YVR, and YVR-MEL would be 40-45 minutes longer than YVR-SYD. A 787 could no doubt be turned around quicker than a 77L as well.
 
IndianicWorld
Posts: 2799
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2001 11:32 am

RE: YVR Trying To Attract More Asia/Pacific Traffic

Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:18 pm

YUL would be an interesting option. Good thinking.

My main query would be on yields, given the lack of business ties and the existing capacity into SYD.

Would a move to start MEL bring the SYD service back to a 787, in place of the 77L? This would give a daily SYD and a 3X weekly MEL flight, which would likely have less overall capacity increase but with expansion capacity on the latter if needed, with what should be a more efficient aircraft?
 
wedgetail737
Posts: 3638
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:44 am

RE: YVR Trying To Attract More Asia/Pacific Traffic

Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:29 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Thread starter):
I would think CAN would be likely with CZ. After that, more frequency I suppose. I can't think of other cities that would generate enough traffic to directly feed YVR.

I thought China Southern already serves YVR that started last June. As some mentioned, YVR is missing west Asia and SE Asia. Singapore was the last SE Asian carrier to serve YVR. I would imagine that TG or VN could make a run at YVR.
 
pnwtraveler
Posts: 1067
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:12 am

RE: YVR Trying To Attract More Asia/Pacific Traffic

Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:37 pm

Quoting tayser (Reply 5):
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 4):A n/s YVR-MEL 787 has a much better chance of success, esp. if the YVR departure can be dovetailed with the daily YYZ-YVR-SYD service.
originating a new YVR-MEL flight in YUL would make it even more attractive from both ends - full widebody services between all 5 cities.

I like this idea. It is kind of like JET's flight from YYZ to BRU that co-ordinates with the two destinations in India. All Jet now has to do is add YVR to BRU. But we know that is mostly VFR traffic.

With both flights landing OZ flights landing in YVR close together people can switch between aircraft so YYZ passengers could switch to MEL and YUL switch to SYD.
 
connies4ever
Topic Author
Posts: 3393
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:54 pm

RE: YVR Trying To Attract More Asia/Pacific Traffic

Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:52 pm

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 7):
I thought China Southern already serves YVR that started last June.

I checked YVR's site and you're right. Good catch !   
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
threepoint
Posts: 1292
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:49 am

RE: YVR Trying To Attract More Asia/Pacific Traffic

Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:16 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Thread starter):
So, then, there's Indonesia, Singapore (lots of history on that file), Malaysia, Thailand, and India. Most of these would be Canada-driven, I'd think, except for India, as there isn't a lot of economic connection between Canada and these nations.

Assuming Canada can solve its dairy/poultry protection issues and we are invited to join the Trans Pacific Partnership, the 'economic connection' could all very well change. I'd assume membership within the TPP will generate a lot more business passenger and cargo demand between Canada and various nations not currently served directly. And YVR is perfectly positioned to be the springboard from which airlines launch to & from Malaysia, Vietnam, Singapore and perhaps Chile as well.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
User avatar
IrishAyes
Posts: 2153
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 6:04 pm

RE: YVR Trying To Attract More Asia/Pacific Traffic

Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:07 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Thread starter):
China is a given, even though China Eastern, from PVG, and Air China, from PEK, and Cathay, from HKG already serve YVR. I would think CAN would be likely with CZ. After that, more frequency I suppose. I can't think of other cities that would generate enough traffic to directly feed YVR.

I guess the question here is, how strong are AC's ties with Star partners in Asia? You have YVR flights on AC metal feeding into PEK, ICN and NRT, so that is 1-stop onto CA, OZ and NH respectively to get into mainland China, Japan and Korea, as well as SE Asia.

Quoting connies4ever (Thread starter):
So, then, there's Indonesia, Singapore (lots of history on that file), Malaysia, Thailand, and India. Most of these would be Canada-driven, I'd think, except for India, as there isn't a lot of economic connection between Canada and these nations.

Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia? Ugh, idk...just such busted yields going between North America and those stations. Vancouver really is not THAT large of a city.

The nonstop Indian flights have been rumored off-and-on again for years, first with AC, then AI, then IT, it just seems like those will never happen. If Toronto couldn't support YYZDEL, then YVR likely cannot either. Neither Indian nor Canadian legacy carriers have the bandwidth to venture into loss-making ULH routes hoping to break even at some point in the future. The yield is simply not there.

But, as long as Canada-UAE bilaterals remain in place, the barriers to entry still remain low...the question is, how much can they afford to bleed?

YVR's network is pretty well-rounded as-is. You have 10 Asian carriers (CA, CZ, CI, CE, CX, BR, PR, NZ, JL, KE) plus service on AC to PEK, PVG, SEL, HKG, NRT and SYD.

That's pretty darn impressive for a city with a population of slightly less than 600,000 inhabitants, and an MSA of 2,116,581 individuals!!!
confidence is silent. insecurities are loud.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19002
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: YVR Trying To Attract More Asia/Pacific Traffic

Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:21 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Thread starter):
China is a given, even though China Eastern, from PVG, and Air China, from PEK, and Cathay, from HKG already serve YVR. I would think CAN would be likely with CZ. After that, more frequency I suppose. I can't think of other cities that would generate enough traffic to directly feed YVR.

I don't see why the already large and rapidly-growing Chinese market doesn't have as much potential for adding direct service between many additional cities in China and North America, just like the many flights already operating to Europe from quite a few cities other than those already served by AC. Within the next 10 years I would bet there will be nonstops between at least 10 cities in China and major North American gateways. It will be a huge market with China's 1.3 billion population and rapidly growing middle class who want to travel and can increasingly afford to. You see more Chinese visitors in Europe now than Japanese.
 
ZBBYLW
Posts: 1612
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 8:17 am

RE: YVR Trying To Attract More Asia/Pacific Traffic

Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:09 pm

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 11):
That's pretty darn impressive for a city with a population of slightly less than 600,000 inhabitants, and an MSA of 2,116,581 individuals!!!

The thing about YVR is it is very different from most US cities. First off the "600,000 inhabitants" is not an issue because Vancouver, Burnaby, Surrey, Richmond, New West, North Vancouver, West Vancouver, and to a lesser extent Abbotsford are all integrated into one city. The 2.1 million total is also out dated, it is closer to 2.4 or so now mostly due to immigration. Many of Vancouver's population is from overseas, to a far greater % than most cities and there for the number of flight/travelers may seem high for someone with no knowledge of the area. Another thing to note is YVR is technically in Richmond a town of even less than 600,000 people.
Keep the shinny side up!
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19002
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: YVR Trying To Attract More Asia/Pacific Traffic

Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:30 pm

Quoting zbbylw (Reply 13):
The 2.1 million total is also out dated, it is closer to 2.4 or so now mostly due to immigration. Many of Vancouver's population is from overseas, to a far greater % than most cities and there for the number of flight/travelers may seem high for someone with no knowledge of the area.
Quoting zbbylw (Reply 13):
Another thing to note is YVR airport is technically in Richmond a town of even less than 600,000 people.

Excerpts below from following recent Vancouver Sun items on the issue of the many signs in Richmond stores and other businesses that are now only in Chinese:
http://www.vancouversun.com/life/Res...+signs+Canadian/5990583/story.html
http://blogs.vancouversun.com/2012/0...-only-signs-arent-good-for-canada/

Metro Vancouver, including Richmond, not only has the highest proportion of ethnic Chinese in Canada, it is the most Asian city in the world outside of Asia. Since the late 1980s, waves of Chinese immigrants have refashioned a commercial district of Richmond bordered by No. 3 Road, Garden City Road, Alderbridge Way and Sea Island Way into a new Chinatown

Forty-five per cent of the residents of Richmond are ethnic Chinese, the highest rate in the country. Six out of 10 Richmond residents are new immigrants. And almost half of all Richmond residents do not speak English in their homes, according to the census. Like Richmond, north Surrey is another region of Metro Vancouver where one ethnic group, South Asians, predominates. Despite this, English remains the prevalent language of most signs in those Surrey enclaves.
 
tinosky
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:53 pm

RE: YVR Trying To Attract More Asia/Pacific Traffic

Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:46 pm

YVR needs NH to get a daily flight in. Maybe a Haneda service would do well. AC and NH can share.

Tinosky,
 
threepoint
Posts: 1292
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:49 am

RE: YVR Trying To Attract More Asia/Pacific Traffic

Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:26 am

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 11):
That's pretty darn impressive for a city with a population of slightly less than 600,000 inhabitants, and an MSA of 2,116,581 individuals!!!

As was mentioned, these figures are a bit outdated. Keep in mind that YVR serves all of BC (4+ M) and a good deal of Alberta/Sask residents as well (as there are few eastbound nonstop options from these provinces). The catchment population is likely more than 8 million.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
YVRLTN
Posts: 2262
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:49 pm

RE: YVR Trying To Attract More Asia/Pacific Traffic

Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:41 am

Quoting connies4ever (Thread starter):
Japan ? Already served, but I believe only from NRT

JL downgraded NRT from 744 to 77E to 763. The fact it was one of the few international routes not cut must mean its worth something, but doesnt look a healthy market looking at this equipment downgrade. I hear the yields are terrible due to all the cheap packages. AC also fly and fluctuate seasonally between a 763 & 333. I believe CP then AC served KIX back in the day. I think AC announced HND a year or two ago, but never started it. NH are happy codesharing with AC.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 9):
Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 7):
I thought China Southern already serves YVR that started last June.

I checked YVR's site and you're right. Good catch !

3 per week (Mon/Wed/Fri) with a 77E - plus a 77F freighter too, think also 3/week! I hear loads & yields are good, would not be surprised to see an extra flight or two by the summer and eventually daily.

As to other prospects....

YVR is rumored to be an early destination for Skymark and their A380 adventure. Can only hurt JL IMO.

China is going to be #1. AC will be increasing frequency to existing destinations first, I believe HKG first and would not be surprised at a couple of new routes once 787's finally start arriving.

I can see places like SZX, TSN, CTU & XMN. The local carriers are all picking up A330's and with the recent widebody orders including 748 / A380 by the HNA Group, I would not be surprised to see someone at YVR from their home bases. I could see HK Airlines trying to compete with CX. Oasis HK tried and failed, maybe these guys will get it right and have deeper pockets to do so.

CA added a secondly daily with the 332 a while back now, they could grow with bigger equipment if necessary.

I think MU may go twice daily to PVG.

CX dropped a flight, but upgraded the daytime flight from 343 to 744. This would be an A380 route for them if there ever was one. Not sure if it could come back, they should consolidate before AC does IMO, but I think more competition will come from home.

Other than that, I dont actually know there is any real market for Malaysia & Thailand for example. I wondered if Air Asia X may have given YVR a try from KUL, but their bubble doesnt seem to be flying so high right now. Then again, they will have to send those 330's somewhere - not sure if they will have the legs for KUL-YVR though and a stop would make it even less feasible. One option could be via NAN, there is a sizeable Fijian population here and FJ pulled out a few years ago now, but they were using the wrong equipment in 737's via HNL.

As for India, look at the AC potential 787 routes thread. Dont see India any time soon, certainly not from YVR and there is no Indian carrier in any fit state to launch it. IT seriously looked at it 4-5 years ago when they were ordering 5 of every type of Airbus, and Vijay Mallya was here for a few days, but we know how that is going for them.

Australia - AC are doing well on SYD, but Im not convinced on MEL. I think it would be better served by Jetstar with a 787, though Im not convinced the 787 is going to be the game changer for long thin routes as some think, but thats for a different thread.

Another interesting tidbit from this conference outside the scope of this article (we were there) was re VS to LHR. Apparantly, they are not targeting O&D but looking for connecting pax and intend to go year round then daily. Connections to...... 5 places? Stick with BA, LH or KL metinks!

One thing from the article is the processing of baggage faster - a huge need!

As to spening money on security & safety, I guess thats what the new fence 4' higher than the old one with razor wire on top which has ruined things for photographers is in the name of..... and what a waste of money the engine run up bay is IMO - its facing east, the city is to the east, you only really hear the noise when there is a westerly wind, so you still hear the noise anyway - very smart. I sure hope all this money is not going to be further invested in crap like this.
Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
 
tinosky
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:53 pm

RE: YVR Trying To Attract More Asia/Pacific Traffic

Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:06 am

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 17):
YVR is rumored to be an early destination for Skymark and their A380 adventure.

I would love to see Skymark on an International standpoint. Especially YVR!

Tinosky
 
CPA62
Posts: 100
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:13 am

RE: YVR Trying To Attract More Asia/Pacific Traffic

Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:42 am

Vancouver's 2011 estimated population should be around 2.4 million, this does not includes eastern suburbs
from Abbotsford east. The population of the lower mainland is approx 2.7 million.

Before YVR comes out with a plan to attract more Asian carriers, they need to convince the federal government
to ease up on the restrictions placed on carriers wanting access into Vancouver. There is also a lack of flights into the USA. YVR needs to address the problem of passengers using Seattle and Bellingham as a gateway into the US. More USA frequencies and destinations will help sustain and attract service from Asia?
A route to South America would also be nice, all be it wishfull thinking?
 
United Airline
Posts: 8769
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:24 pm

RE: YVR Trying To Attract More Asia/Pacific Traffic

Fri Jan 27, 2012 7:00 am

With the super large Hong Kong population in Vancouver, I don't understand why CX doesn't go triple daily and AC double daily again??
 
connies4ever
Topic Author
Posts: 3393
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:54 pm

RE: YVR Trying To Attract More Asia/Pacific Traffic

Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:43 am

Quoting CPA62 (Reply 19):
A route to South America would also be nice, all be it wishfull thinking?

Well, of course, back in the day Canadian Pacific used to run DC-8-43s YVR-MEX-LIM-SCL-EZE. I think perhaps 3x weekly, with 1 stopping at YYC en route MEX. Given AC's current YYZ focus for most longhaul, it's not likely to happen. There is a YVR-MEX daily (I think A319), but I wonder if there is a sustainable YVR-LIM market (or SCL) ? Perhaps 3x 763 for each service, but then again where do you find the lift ?
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
Akiestar
Posts: 820
Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 6:51 am

RE: YVR Trying To Attract More Asia/Pacific Traffic

Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:53 am

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 7):
SE Asia. Singapore was the last SE Asian carrier to serve YVR. I would imagine that TG or VN could make a run at YVR.

Uh...the Philippines is in Southeast Asia and PR is still serving YVR.

[Edited 2012-01-27 02:54:29]
 
connies4ever
Topic Author
Posts: 3393
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:54 pm

RE: YVR Trying To Attract More Asia/Pacific Traffic

Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:18 pm

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 22):
Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 7):
SE Asia. Singapore was the last SE Asian carrier to serve YVR. I would imagine that TG or VN could make a run at YVR.

Uh...the Philippines is in Southeast Asia and PR is still serving YVR.

Very true. Is MNL-YVR run nonstop ? There is a tag on to LAS. I believe the service is with 744, no ?

As for TG, most of the traffic is O&D low yield, so I don't see TG or anyone else dedicating a 77L/W so as to make the flight nonstop. Maybe on of their A345s if they still have them.

As for VN, hmmm...Vietnam is developing much faster than Thailand, so it's possible they could make an appearance at YVR in the not so distant future, but would it be with a 77W possibly nonstop, or a 763, if they have them, via an intermediate point.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
Akiestar
Posts: 820
Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 6:51 am

RE: YVR Trying To Attract More Asia/Pacific Traffic

Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:11 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 23):
Very true. Is MNL-YVR run nonstop ? There is a tag on to LAS. I believe the service is with 744, no ?

MNL-YVR is non-stop and runs daily: three terminator and four with continuing service to LAS. The former uses the 77W, while the latter uses the A343.
 
ACT7
Posts: 96
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:27 pm

RE: YVR Trying To Attract More Asia/Pacific Traffic

Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:30 pm

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 17):
Another interesting tidbit from this conference outside the scope of this article (we were there) was re VS to LHR. Apparantly, they are not targeting O&D but looking for connecting pax and intend to go year round then daily. Connections to...... 5 places? Stick with BA, LH or KL metinks!

I personally don't see VS lasting much more than 2 - 3 years, and only seasonal. They are primarily an O&D VFR type of airline (despite their fancy cabins).

As I posted in SSP, if you look at Asia-Pacific pax numbers between 2002 and 2011 for YVR, you will see a relatively stable total each year, give or take. So for all the increases in capacity and carriers, it has had a more redistribution effect on that segment rather than generating significant increases in traffic. Whether that means that the market demand is just simply that, or there is a funneling of traffic to SEA, SFO, LAX, I don't know, but the numbers are what they are.

YVR will only solidfy it's position as an Asia-Pacific gateway the way it dreams of by having an airline 'actively hub' it, i.e. AC. And we know that is not too likely, with the exception of an additional frequency here and there. YVR's competiton, namely, LAX and SFO are substantially larger markets that are real hubs for UA, so that's some pretty stiff competition. And frankly with EK starting service to SEA, we will see more sub-continent bound traffic flow through SEA-TAC, creating issues for the legacy European carriers and *A partners out of YVR. Which brings me back to VS not really standing a chance in the long run. As large as a cachement area of 8 million sounds like, when you think of the relative cachement areas of LAX and SFO, not to mention the fact that YYZ is within a 2-3 hour flight of 100 million people, it's difficult to imagine the type of increased service at YVR that the airport authority is predicting or hoping for, even with AC taking delivery of 787's. In order to grow market share, you need feeder traffic and YVR just isn't generating the type of feeder traffic that a true hub has. Unfortunately, O&D traffic at YVR is simply not big enough to attract the large numbers of carriers it speaks of.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 14):
it is the most Asian city in the world outside of Asia.

I assume that means as a percentage of the population.
 
CPA62
Posts: 100
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:13 am

RE: YVR Trying To Attract More Asia/Pacific Traffic

Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:16 pm

Quoting ACT7 (Reply 25):
And frankly with EK starting service to SEA, we will see more sub-continent bound traffic flow through SEA-TAC, creating issues for the legacy



It will be interesting to see what effect this service will have on Vancouver passengers and yields. My guess is there will be some bleeding. I would also venture to guess this service will marginalize SEA and drive down yields?
Potentially seeing a carrier pull SEA service or some reductions? I think LH in SEA will have a lot to lose?
 
RAGAZZO777
Posts: 378
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2010 6:33 am

RE: YVR Trying To Attract More Asia/Pacific Traffic

Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:35 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 21):
Quoting CPA62 (Reply 19):
A route to South America would also be nice, all be it wishfull thinking?

Well, of course, back in the day Canadian Pacific used to run DC-8-43s YVR-MEX-LIM-SCL-EZE. I think perhaps 3x weekly, with 1 stopping at YYC en route MEX. Given AC's current YYZ focus for most longhaul, it's not likely to happen. There is a YVR-MEX daily (I think A319), but I wonder if there is a sustainable YVR-LIM market (or SCL) ? Perhaps 3x 763 for each service, but then again where do you find the lift ?



Maybe not on AC metal, but LATAM (LP) could definitely fly GRU-LIM-YVR with the 767.
JESÚS, TE AMO !!
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19002
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: YVR Trying To Attract More Asia/Pacific Traffic

Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:42 am

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 21):
Quoting CPA62 (Reply 19):
A route to South America would also be nice, all be it wishfull thinking?

Well, of course, back in the day Canadian Pacific used to run DC-8-43s YVR-MEX-LIM-SCL-EZE. I think perhaps 3x weekly, with 1 stopping at YYC en route MEX. Given AC's current YYZ focus for most longhaul, it's not likely to happen.

CP moved their Latin America gateway from YVR to YYZ in the 1980s. It proved more successful than YVR since YYZ works as a hub for all of Canada and the market there is much larger.

When CP dropped YVR-South America service they were using DC-10s YVR-LIM-SCL-EZE (the MEX stop had been eliminated by then). Another DC-10 operated YYZ-LIM and YYZ passengers to SCL and EZE switched to the YVR aircraft at LIM. The YYZ DC-10 spent the day parked at LIM and again connected with the northbound flight to YVR on its return trip that night.
 
FlyboyOz
Posts: 1743
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2000 10:05 am

RE: YVR Trying To Attract More Asia/Pacific Traffic

Sat Jan 28, 2012 1:02 am

Two more asian airlines - China Airlines (B744) and Eva Air (B744). They also fly to Vancouver from Taipei (Taiwan) as well. They also can get more Hong Kong pax from HKG to taipei to Vancouver and vice versa.
The Spirit of AustraliAN - Longreach
 
YVRLTN
Posts: 2262
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:49 pm

RE: YVR Trying To Attract More Asia/Pacific Traffic

Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:50 am

Quoting FlyboyOz (Reply 29):
China Airlines (B744)

Mostly 343 these days.

Quoting FlyboyOz (Reply 29):
Eva Air (B744).

Often 77W.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 28):
CP moved their Latin America gateway from YVR to YYZ in the 1980s. It proved more successful than YVR since YYZ works as a hub for all of Canada and the market there is much larger.

There are quite a few South Americans here, and we move quite a bit of cargo to particularly Chile, Colombia & Brazil for the O&G industry, but I dont think enough to tie up resources with dedicated flights, so it makes so much more sense for AC to offer one stop via YYZ and pick up the rest of the Canadian market through there.

Quoting ACT7 (Reply 25):
YVR will only solidfy it's position as an Asia-Pacific gateway the way it dreams of by having an airline 'actively hub' it, i.e. AC. And we know that is not too likely, with the exception of an additional frequency here and there

   I think AC will expand to China, but I think the key here is WS. They already have a codeshare with CX and others. If, and a big if, they enter an alliance then they could be more helpful offering connections. It will also depend what their plan is for the Q400's. It might just take away from AC, so all things will remain equal.

Quoting CPA62 (Reply 19):
With the super large Hong Kong population in Vancouver, I don't understand why CX doesn't go triple daily and AC double daily again??

As I said, I am pretty sure HKG is going to be one of the first routes for AC expansion, probably even before the 787's arrive. CX need a VLA on this route and as I said they need to be pro-active before AC gets their resources together, but 2x 77W & 744 could be too much capacity right now. Remember they also have the freighter diluting cargo revenues.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 23):
As for VN, hmmm

They only just started London, not a massive Vietnamese population here comparatively, think YVR would be a long way down the list.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 21):
There is a YVR-MEX daily (I think A319

Right, came in right after the demise of MX.

Quoting ACT7 (Reply 25):
And frankly with EK starting service to SEA

I think this is a lot of what this is about. Im sure SEA warrants EK service in its own right, but I also think it is partially a two fingers at Canada for the bi-lateral game with the timing of the introduction of this service, with aircraft being weight restricted and all. This will hurt BA, LH & KL more than Asian carriers, I dont think it would take too many pax away from them unless the prices are so low - remember it is not without cost and time to get to SEA - which is maybe another reason why YVR are focusing on strengthening their focus eastward, apart from the obvious demographics of our population of course.
Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
 
ACT7
Posts: 96
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:27 pm

RE: YVR Trying To Attract More Asia/Pacific Traffic

Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:08 am

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 30):
There are quite a few South Americans here, and we move quite a bit of cargo to particularly Chile, Colombia & Brazil for the O&G industry, but I dont think enough to tie up resources with dedicated flights, so it makes so much more sense for AC to offer one stop via YYZ and pick up the rest of the Canadian market through there.

Don't forget that AC's flights to South America are aimed at European and Asian connecting pax through YYZ. I was on the SCL-EZE flight last year and there were a surprisingly large amount of French, German, and Swiss, as well as Chinese, and Japanese - and these were all connecting pax. AC has been very clear about targeting that market to S.A. through YYZ.
 
ACT7
Posts: 96
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:27 pm

RE: YVR Trying To Attract More Asia/Pacific Traffic

Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:19 am

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 30):
I think this is a lot of what this is about. Im sure SEA warrants EK service in its own right, but I also think it is partially a two fingers at Canada for the bi-lateral game with the timing of the introduction of this service, with aircraft being weight restricted and all. This will hurt BA, LH & KL more than Asian carriers, I dont think it would take too many pax away from them unless the prices are so low - remember it is not without cost and time to get to SEA

I agree that I don't think too many people will drive to Seattle to catch an EK flight but all it will take is an interline agreement with someone as small as Horizon to funnel some of the international traffic away from LH, KL, or BA.
 
YVRLTN
Posts: 2262
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:49 pm

RE: YVR Trying To Attract More Asia/Pacific Traffic

Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:15 pm

Quoting ACT7 (Reply 32):
I agree that I don't think too many people will drive to Seattle to catch an EK flight but all it will take is an interline agreement with someone as small as Horizon to funnel some of the international traffic away from LH, KL, or BA

Exactly, Im thinking of the East Indian population looking for cheap fares for VFR. From Surrey for example, getting to YVR is not much more cost effective than going to SEA if you are going to save $1000 per head on air fare. I wouldnt rule out WS even using their new Q400's to SEA and codesharing with EK either, that would be a right headache for the Europeans, but dont think it will effect the Asian biz too much - until they also apply a DL codeshare! In that scenario, I dont know if WS would be "allowed" to create such competition however.

********
Something I meant to add to was that NZ recently increased their frequency from 3 weekly to 4 and some flights are operated by the 744 instead of 77E. I could see this going daily by the time the 789 arrives.

Quoting ACT7 (Reply 31):
AC has been very clear about targeting that market to S.A. through YYZ.

So this raises another issue for YVR, as you say the #1 source for sustainable increases will be from transit pax, which must mean a hub operation, so they would basically have to get AC to switch their focus from YYZ for transit pax. Makes sense I suppose for their Asia routes, but they have their own direct flights ex YYZ too which need supporting and I can see future Asia growth with the 787 starting from YYZ.
Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
 
trex8
Posts: 4606
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

RE: YVR Trying To Attract More Asia/Pacific Traffic

Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:58 pm

Quoting FlyboyOz (Reply 29):
Two more asian airlines - China Airlines (B744) and Eva Air (B744). They also fly to Vancouver from Taipei (Taiwan) as well. They also can get more Hong Kong pax from HKG to taipei to Vancouver and vice versa.

And mainland Chinese pax especially with CI in Skyteam. Do the Taiwanese carriers have rights to fly from Canada to the US? YVr would be a good stop over on the west coast to lower 48 states than say an ANC stopover.
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 4957
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

RE: YVR Trying To Attract More Asia/Pacific Traffic

Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:29 pm

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 33):
So this raises another issue for YVR, as you say the #1 source for sustainable increases will be from transit pax, which must mean a hub operation, so they would basically have to get AC to switch their focus from YYZ for transit pax. Makes sense I suppose for their Asia routes, but they have their own direct flights ex YYZ too which need supporting and I can see future Asia growth with the 787 starting from YYZ.

What you also have to remember, is that routes from Asia to South America are not much further through YYZ than YVR. And in come cases it is longer through YVR. For example HKG-YVR-GRU is longer than HKG-YYZ-GRU. But routes from Europe to South America are quite a bit more through YVR than YYZ. It makes sense therefore to have YYZ as the logical hub.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
CPA62
Posts: 100
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:13 am

RE: YVR Trying To Attract More Asia/Pacific Traffic

Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:55 pm

Quoting trex8 (Reply 34):
And mainland Chinese pax especially with CI in Skyteam. Do the Taiwanese carriers have rights to fly from Canada to the US? YVr would be a good stop over on the west coast to lower 48 states than say an ANC stopover

No rights granted, EVA applied to get 5th freedom right into NYC years ago
 
TheCol
Posts: 1857
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:30 am

RE: YVR Trying To Attract More Asia/Pacific Traffic

Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:57 pm

Quoting CPA62 (Reply 19):
YVR needs to address the problem of passengers using Seattle and Bellingham as a gateway into the US.

They can't. The only way to curb that is for the Feds to cut back on the taxes and fees for both YVR and the airlines that fly there.

Quoting ACT7 (Reply 32):
I agree that I don't think too many people will drive to Seattle to catch an EK flight but all it will take is an interline agreement with someone as small as Horizon to funnel some of the international traffic away from LH, KL, or BA.

  

When WS moves in with the Q400s, the existing regional players like PASCO and CMA/Hawkair will have to find other niche markets or call it quits. You can bet one of those carriers will start flying passengers to SEA and BLI. Take Hawkair for example, that carrier has successfully re-invented itself once before and staved off bankruptcy on top of that. Competing successfully against the nation's largest carrier and facing adverse rural operating conditions on a daily basis, their management have obviously become very adapt at thinking outside the box. With CMA at the helm, that gives them even greater access at additional airports.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
YVRLTN
Posts: 2262
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:49 pm

RE: YVR Trying To Attract More Asia/Pacific Traffic

Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:00 am

CZ increasing 5 weekly, X24 - a step i nthe right direction and not at all surprising.
Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
 
ftornik
Posts: 47
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:58 pm

RE: YVR Trying To Attract More Asia/Pacific Traffic

Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:54 am

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 4):
I don't see YVR-MEL working, given the length and likelihood of low yielding traffic. They tried it once before and it lasted a short time and things may be different this time but I have my doubts.

The fastest way to MEL may be through AKL. NZ is an AC code-share partner and flies YVR-AKL with tight connections to MEL.

AC's own metal to MEL is a long-shot in an economic downturn and the ability of alliances to offer better acces through code-shares.
 
connies4ever
Topic Author
Posts: 3393
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:54 pm

RE: YVR Trying To Attract More Asia/Pacific Traffic

Wed Feb 08, 2012 12:52 pm

Quoting TheCol (Reply 37):
They can't. The only way to curb that is for the Feds to cut back on the taxes and fees for both YVR and the airlines that fly there.

I agree, and this applies also to YYZ - BUF and YUL - BTV. Even YWG - GFK to some degree.

The airport authorities themselves have some level of responsibility here as well. They appear to be self regulating bodies that are answerable to no one.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
CPA62
Posts: 100
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:13 am

RE: YVR Trying To Attract More Asia/Pacific Traffic

Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:41 pm

SOmewhat realted to this subject, an article in the "Business in Vancouver" jan 31-feb 6 magazine
story "Emirates Airline set to take another run at Vancouver service" seems to indicate thawing of relations between
Canada and the U.A.E. with the possibiltiy of open skies talks on the horizon.

any thoughts on this?
 
CPA62
Posts: 100
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:13 am

RE: YVR Trying To Attract More Asia/Pacific Traffic

Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:43 pm

Quoting CPA62 (Reply 41):
SOmewhat realted to this subject, an article in the "Business in Vancouver" jan 31-feb 6 magazine
story "Emirates Airline set to take another run at Vancouver service" seems to indicate thawing of relations between
Canada and the U.A.E. with the possibiltiy of open skies talks on the horizon.

any thoughts on this?

regret the spelling errors, pressed the wrong tab!
 
YVRLTN
Posts: 2262
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:49 pm

RE: YVR Trying To Attract More Asia/Pacific Traffic

Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:32 am

Quoting CPA62 (Reply 41):
any thoughts on this?

Yeah, from 200 kms down the road in SEA
Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
 
mogandoCI
Posts: 1247
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:39 pm

RE: YVR Trying To Attract More Asia/Pacific Traffic

Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:40 am

Quoting CPA62 (Reply 36):
No rights granted, EVA applied to get 5th freedom right into NYC years ago

Surprising that they denied it to BR, but granted YVR-JFK to CX.....
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Crew
Posts: 11834
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: YVR Trying To Attract More Asia/Pacific Traffic

Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:06 am

Quoting CPA62 (Reply 19):
Before YVR comes out with a plan to attract more Asian carriers, they need to convince the federal government
to ease up on the restrictions placed on carriers wanting access into Vancouver. There is also a lack of flights into the USA. YVR needs to address the problem of passengers using Seattle and Bellingham as a gateway into the US. More USA frequencies and destinations will help sustain and attract service from Asia?

I've always wondered why YVR wasn't a major hub from the US to Asia. IMHO, with *significant* additional US service, YVR would fill significant TPAC (or further) flights.

But that would require a cut in taxes, opening of air traffic rights, and... (I'm sure I'm missing something.)

Quoting CPA62 (Reply 41):
"Emirates Airline set to take another run at Vancouver service" seems to indicate thawing of relations between
Canada and the U.A.E. with the possibiltiy of open skies talks on the horizon.

any thoughts on this?

Many cities want the economic boost of certain airline service should provide. That doesn't mean a thawing of relationships with the Federal Canadian government. Then again, I *never* expected EK to be granted their current bilateral rights to Australia...


Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19002
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: YVR Trying To Attract More Asia/Pacific Traffic

Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:22 am

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 44):
Quoting CPA62 (Reply 36):
No rights granted, EVA applied to get 5th freedom right into NYC years ago

Surprising that they denied it to BR, but granted YVR-JFK to CX.....

That's no doubt because Canadian carriers also have 5th freedom rights to/from HKG although they're not being used currently. For decades CP Air operated Tokyo-Hong Kong with 5th freedom rights, and in later years Canadian Airlines operated 5th freedom tag-on services HKG-BKK.

When Canadian carriers were serving TPE I'm pretty sure they had no intermediate or beyond 5th freedom rights from the Taiwanese government. It's rare for a country to grant 5th freedom rights if the other country doesn't reciprocate, whether the rights are going to be used or not.

[Edited 2012-02-08 19:30:14]
 
cslusarc
Posts: 553
Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 2:29 pm

RE: YVR Trying To Attract More Asia/Pacific Traffic

Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:36 pm

In the 1990s, I remember that CP flew YVR - HKG - TPE / BKK.
--cslusarc from YWG
 
connies4ever
Topic Author
Posts: 3393
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:54 pm

RE: YVR Trying To Attract More Asia/Pacific Traffic

Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:39 pm

Quoting cslusarc (Reply 47):
In the 1990s, I remember that CP flew YVR - HKG - TPE / BKK.

I wasn't aware that CP ever flew to TPE. I thought the route was YVR-HKG-BKK (BKK only on select days).
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
mogandoCI
Posts: 1247
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:39 pm

RE: YVR Trying To Attract More Asia/Pacific Traffic

Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:56 pm

Quoting cslusarc (Reply 47):

In the 1990s, I remember that CP flew YVR - HKG - TPE / BKK.

Ahhh brings back memories... I've flown the YVR-HKG roundtrip at least 5/6 times... back then AirCanada is still a mostly east side airline

Who is online