LAXintl
Topic Author
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NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:13 pm

Four NY airports (EWR, LGA, JFK and TEB) plus PHL which share airspace accounted for nearly 50% of all delays in the nation while only representing 12% of US air-traffic in 2011.
This is up from being 1/3 of the delays back in 2005 even as air traffic has declined in the US during the period.

During 2011 JFK delays averaged 67 minutes, up from 58 minutes in 2006.

So much for all the hoopla about ATC and airspace redesign in the NY area. A national embarrassment imo…

Full article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/28/bu...l-delays.html?partner=yahoofinance

=
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Dornier328Jet
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RE: NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:08 pm

I don't really find it surprising. I live in the NY metro and I learned to fly in the vicinity of NY airspace and the sheer volume of air traffic was always amazing. I'm sure if you combined the 3 New York airports they would by and large be the busiest in the world, and I'm positive that the traffic being split between the three is partially to blame for the delays, as if there were one large airport and one smaller one (like Chicago) there would be fewer aircraft and consequently fewer delays. The close proximity of the three airports certainly doesn't help. It's not like other metros like L.A. where there is more than one airport but the smaller airports are significantly smaller and fairly spread out. As building one giant airport (maybe to replace LGA and JFK) is clearly out of the question, a redesign of the airspace is probably our best bet, and I have my doubts if it will ever happen.
 
cyeg66
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RE: NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:27 pm

Yes, but what you need to remember is 12% of US air traffic is still a HUUUUUGE numbers of air traffic movements, and all of them moved thru an impossibly small piece of airspace. This is nothing like the midwest. I empathize with controllers from that part of the country. (I envy them a little as well....)
slow to 160, contact tower, slow to 160, contact tower, slow to....ZZZZZZZ......
 
wagz
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RE: NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:56 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
So much for all the hoopla about ATC and airspace redesign in the NY area. A national embarrassment imo…

Except that essentially none of the airspace redesign project has even occurred yet. JFK got new departure fixes a couple of months ago, so not long enough to draw any real conclusions from yet.

And I didn't really read the article so I'm not sure if its you or the article that says PHL shares airspace with New York. I really don't know where that misconception comes from, since I'll be working said PHL airspace in a couple of hours. PHL Approach's airspace is affiliated with no one but itself. Our main problem is being boxed in by 8 other approach controls and other flows of traffic above or around our airspace that creates inefficiencies for our own traffic.
I think Big Foot is blurry, Its not the photographers fault. Theres a large out of focus monster roaming the countryside
 
G500
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RE: NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:02 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Four NY airports (EWR, LGA, JFK and TEB) plus PHL which share airspace accounted for nearly 50% of all delays in the nation while only representing 12% of US air-traffic in 2011.

TEB was suppose to be a better option than the large airports, an airport where people would fly to to avoid delays. no longer the case...

Last week a Falcon 900 going to Milan had to taxi back for fuel. Never seen that before at that airport
 
Mir
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RE: NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:12 pm

Quoting wagz (Reply 3):
And I didn't really read the article so I'm not sure if its you or the article that says PHL shares airspace with New York. I really don't know where that misconception comes from, since I'll be working said PHL airspace in a couple of hours. PHL Approach's airspace is affiliated with no one but itself.

You clearly know the airspace better than me, but we do talk to PHL Approach every time we go into the EWR satellites (CDW, MMU, TEB) on the JAIKE3 arrival.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
ltbewr
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RE: NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:33 pm

I am not surprised at this. You have 3 major airports (EWR, JFK, LGA), 2 major international gateways (JFK, EWR), one with a lot of short-haul traffic (LGA), TEB and WPN both major bizjet airports as well as ISP, frequent weather issues (rain, fog, snow, ice, thunderstorms, fog) you got a cluster of traffic probably only exceeded by maybe the London, UK area. We are trying to fit 10 pounds of potatoes in a 5 pound bag. Hopefully 'Nexgen' ATC programs will help, but that seems to be years away. Perhaps the only hope is to reduce movements with fewer 'commuter' a/c ops and have them use larger aircraft but less frequency.
 
mmedford
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RE: NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:45 pm

Well... I don't know why all these airplanes want to come to the NY Airspace.

Lets all have them fly to Paris, Texas?

You have almost 200 movements per hour, between the 3 airports with only 9 potential runways, and in reality only 3 runways in use for primarly landings...

Our airports are only so capable, maybe you should take it up with the airlines that want to fly RJs into our airports?
ILS = It'll Land Somewhere
 
Shawn Patrick
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RE: NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:49 pm

And yet... DL insists on making a megahub in the NYC area.
 
9V-SPJ
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RE: NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:01 pm

OK, a few things to take into consideration:

1. Delays at NYC are not only affected by airspace management. They are affected by weather and also surface management issues. For weather, go to http://www.fly.faa.gov/ois/ once in a while and see how often the NYC airports are affected by delays.
2. PHL does have an impact on NYC because most flights into NYC pass through ZDC (Washington Center) or ZOB (Cleveland Center - which happens to be the busiest ARTCC in the country). If these centers are overwhelmed with traffic or have weather obstructions, you are naturally going to have delays at NYC which ripples into delays at other airports.
3. Yes, there are 7 airports within a 50 mile radius of each other in the NY area - EWR, JFK, TEB, ISP, LGA, SWF, HPN. Managing departure and approach paths for this airports is a nightmare (I worked a bit on this project in grad school) so RNP routes (Required Navigation Performance) will definitely help here.
4. The results of the NY airspace redesign are not even out yet. They did do a trial for about a month last year and I think are just now analyzing some results.
5. More runways aren't going to help unless you can increase the capacity of the TRACONs or Centers.
6. Surface management - the taxiway layout at JFK is restrictive and not very flexible, so it is important that you optimize the length of the departure queue and when aircraft push back from the gate. Have a look at this press release from my company: http://www.saabsensis.com/docs/660/
This program will definitely help to reduce some of the departure delays at JFK.

In short, you can't just attribute delays in the NYC area to airspace, there are many, many other factors at play. There are many promising NextGen

9V-SPJ
 
wagz
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RE: NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:41 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 5):
You clearly know the airspace better than me, but we do talk to PHL Approach every time we go into the EWR satellites (CDW, MMU, TEB) on the JAIKE3 arrival.

Indeed, we run part of the JAIKE3. Not sure why it doesn't stay high above us, but I think we took control of that piece of it some years ago before I worked there. On the other hand the parallel turbojet arrival in to EWR stays above us in ZDC airspace, and in fact we are missing a large chunk of airspace above 7000 for the ARD holding pattern.

We also work the turboprop arrivals to EWR and LGA through the south side of our airspace.
I think Big Foot is blurry, Its not the photographers fault. Theres a large out of focus monster roaming the countryside
 
Mir
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RE: NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:41 pm

Quoting wagz (Reply 10):
Not sure why it doesn't stay high above us,

Nor me. I suspect it's for EWR/JFK/LGA arrivals. I wish it would stay higher, though - it's a killer on fuel burn.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
nycdave
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RE: NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:48 pm

Annual aircraft Operations, 2010 (which is actually a bit lower than some previous years)
From FAA OpsNet: (http://aspm.faa.gov/opsnet/sys/Main.asp?force=atads)

JFK: 404174
LGA: 367346
EWR: 408821
TEB: 158486

TOTAL CORE NYC AIRPORTS (within 20 miles of each other): 1,338,827
(11 runways, or 6 if you eliminate intersections)

SWF: 46531
ISP: 152233
HPN: 188021

TOTAL NYC: 1,725,612
(18 runways 10 non-intersecting)

PHL: 460779 (4 runways, 3 non-intersecting)

TOTAL NYC + PHL: 2,186,391 (22 runways, 13 non-intersecting)


By comparison, the busiest stand-alone airport, ATL, is only 950,119 a year. LHR? 454,883.

LAX, with its 4 parallel runways and gorgeous weather handles 575,835... If we're generous with the area and throw in ONT (94030), LGB (303529), BUR (111556), SNA (272525), and VNY (311311), the regional total, for an area more than double the area the 4 main NYC areas are confined within, comes to 1,668.786 (17 runways, 13 non-intersecting).

I'm sure if NYC had better weather, a giant expanse of ocean on one whole side of the area, and JFK and/or EWR had LAX's runway layout, things would be a lot better. Alas, it doesn't, so we're stuck with it until we get next gen ATC and maybe some re-building or expansion at the main airports. The former is taking forever due to lack of sufficient investment and management, and the only glimmer of hope for the latter is a 3rd parallel at EWR, which is still in the distant possible planning stages.
 
vincewy
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RE: NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:04 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
6. Surface management

Last week I flew AF006 and landed at JFK 4R/22L. I understand there were a lot of aircraft movements but the aircraft was held up for 20 minutes from crossing runway 4L/22R toward the gate (T1). Couldn't complain too much as I was spotting all sorts of foreign carriers but image if you have tight connections, it must be agonizing every minute.
 
PHLapproach
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RE: NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:23 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
Nor me. I suspect it's for EWR/JFK/LGA arrivals. I wish it would stay higher, though - it's a killer on fuel burn.

My Parents house is right under where several airways/arrivals converge. One in particular is the JAIKE just south of WACKI where JFK Departures are climbing out on RBV.J230. RBV guys do often easily cross on J230 between WACKI and ILENE at 220-240 but I'm sure the FAA threw in some space in case of a slow climber on the Breezy Point just to get over top those TEB landers. However just north of there it only gets worse because as you know the JAIKE has a restriction to cross REGLE at 7 which is right where BEAUTY is on the MIP4 into LGA which has a 10k restriction. So they REALLY wanna make sure those guys have plenty of time to get down between both those streams of traffic which causes the arrival to run right through Philly TRACON.

You wanna know whats the worse arrival to fly. The SPUDS/SLATT into PHL from the north. ZBW will throw those guys down to 12k a few miles north of AVP!! They've got to tunnel under the FQM2, MIP4 and LENDY6 plus 3 to 4 N90 Departure gates hooking up with their associated airways. It all needs to change... Who knows when changes will actually save us some money...
 
my235
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RE: NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:44 pm

Yes not surprising at all. It's NYC.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:50 pm

Quoting Shawn Patrick (Reply 8):

There is only one mega hub in the NYC area and that's EWR...

For that matter, with the LGA slot swap, net departures will remain about the same while using larger a/c. As they've said, they are adding 4 million seats while not adding to air congestion.
What gets measured gets done.
 
point2point
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RE: NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:05 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

In a way, I guess that can be good news.

Back before the new Denver International Airport (pre-1995) was built, there were some who stated that the old Stapleton Airport was Responsible for Half of the U.S. Delays.

So the city just built a new airport and problem solved......

Maybe the NYC area needs to take the Denver approach.....???

(okay, you know that I'm just having some fun here   )
 
mmedford
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RE: NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:23 pm

Quoting point2point (Reply 17):
(okay, you know that I'm just having some fun here )

Poor Staten Island, so who wants to deliver the eviction notices? Better yet; who wants to be the one to say that the government claimed imminent domain on their property and their $300k+ property is worth a fraction now?
ILS = It'll Land Somewhere
 
corinthians
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RE: NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:48 am

Comparing 2007 data, which was the worst on record, to 2011. Stats are from http://www.transtats.bts.gov and airports.org.

National Average:

% On-time arrivals: 73.4% (2007); 79.2% (2011)
% On-time Departures: 76.7% (2007); 80.6% (2011)

JFK
Movements: 446,388 (2007); 413,601 (2011)
Movements per day: 1,223 (2007); 1,133 (2011)
% On-time arrivals: 62.8% (2007); 74.5% (2011)
% On-time Departures: 69% (2007); 76.8% (2011)

LGA
Movements: 391,872 (2007); 370,690 (2011)
Movements per day: 1,074 (2007); 1,016 (2011)
% On-time arrivals: 58.5% (2007); 71.5% (2011)
% On-time Departures: 71.6% (2007); 78.7% (2011)

EWR
Movements: 435,691 (2007); 417,149 (2011)
Movements per day: 1194 (2007); 1,143 (2011)
% On-time arrivals: 59.5% (2007); 66.3% (2011)
% On-time Departures: 67.8% (2007); 72.8% (2011)

PHL
Movements: 499,653 (2007); 448,129 (2011)
Movements per day: 1,369 (2007); 1,228 (2011)
% On-time arrivals: 66.5% (2007); 75.5% (2011)
% On-time Departures: 69.6% (2007); 78.4% (2011)

Looks like operational performance has improved across the board. Of course, it probably helps that movements are way down compared to before. As for the average delay, I'm curious to see why it's longer when there are fewer delays in total. This article doesn't really go into that detail or really mention that the percentage of delays is way down.
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

Sun Jan 29, 2012 6:13 am

Quoting nycdave (Reply 12):
TOTAL NYC + PHL: 2,186,391 (22 runways, 13 non-intersecting)


By comparison, the busiest stand-alone airport, ATL, is only 950,119 a year. LHR? 454,883.

Your comparison really speaks for the efficiency of ATL. NYC+PHL is a tad over 2 times ATL which has under 1/4 of the runways.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:15 am

80 percent of all delayed flights late in 2009 happened at just seven airports — La Guardia, Kennedy, Newark, San Francisco, Atlanta, Philadelphia and O’Hare in Chicago. Interesting if the NYT is right on that, seems believable

Quoting Shawn Patrick (Reply 8):
And yet... DL insists on making a megahub in the NYC area.

I really think DL will experience tons of pain and problems if they try to connect too many people thru LGA and i hope/dont think that is their goal at all especially since they will have such a split NYC operation. They are after NYC o&d which if delayed often can still be profitable and worth it. Delta hopefully will set up long connection times in LGA and pricing to avoid connecting too many people thru LGA. I will feel so bad for the Delta customer service people in LGA if they try to connect too many people thru there  
Quoting wagz (Reply 3):
And I didn't really read the article so I'm not sure if its you or the article that says PHL shares airspace with New York. I really don't know where that misconception comes from, since I'll be working said PHL airspace in a couple of hours. PHL Approach's airspace is affiliated with no one but itself

The article is the one that mentions PHL is in NYC airspace the thread starter just said what was in the article
 
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zippyjet
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RE: NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:53 am

As long as there's the regional jet craze you are going to have ATC cluster you know whats. Especially into busy areas such as the Northeast (PHL, NYC airports and BOS). There's big money, population and business. Things would ease up if for example you had a larger plane hauling 150 passengers vs. three 50 passenger RJ's. Also if all the airlines colluded and charged premium fares to go into airports such as DCA, PHL, BOS, EWR, JFK and LGA. As long as there's a market for travel during the peak periods there will be delays. Also Mother Nature doesn't help one bit. Seems the Northeast is prone to lousy weather for flying,
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slcdeltarumd11
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RE: NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:07 am

If you use Albany NY as a center point for the northeast its amazing the large airports within 300 miles YYZ, YUL, TEB, JFK, LGA, EWR, SWF, HPN, ACY, BUR, BOS, PVD, MHT, YQB, BDL, and ISP that is an amazing amount of flights and tons of small airports thrown in there for the big airports without even thrown in in all the smaller ones plus as we all know this area sees its fair share of snowstorms and bad weather
 
panam92
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RE: NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

Sun Jan 29, 2012 1:47 pm

Don't forget Republic airport in Farmingdale New York also has quite a bit of biz jets flying into this airport which is about 15 miles from JFK
 
pliersinsight
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RE: NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

Sun Jan 29, 2012 1:49 pm

You all forgot one rarely used approach and one non-intersecting runway in the NYC area:

http://www.jeppesen.com/documents/co...udson_River_Miracle_Apch_Chart.pdf


The only limitations seem to be VFR only and it can only be used for arrivals. However, there is no faster way to Battery Park and the financial district that I can think of....
 
washingtonian
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RE: NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:33 pm

Can somebody provide a quick status update on the NYC airspace redesign project? If I remember correctly, the FAA recently re-designed (is that the word?) some of the airways leading into and out of NYC. The NYT article above touched on it.

Graphic:
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...York-Air-Traffic.html?ref=business

According to the article, the new airspace redesign for flights heading to the West Coast went into effect in October of 2011 and flights are now a tad longer (and burn a bit more fuel) because of it. My questions:

Is the airspace re-design complete or will additional airways be altered?

Looking at the map, was the old path that bad? It looks like they flew significantly south of the airport before joining the airway. I would have guessed that by that point and altitude that there would be minimal disruptions and interference with other airspace but I guess I am wrong about that.

With this new design, does it matter what runways at JFK are in use? Or do all flights to the West Coast now circle back north around the city? And is this also for flights to other places southwest of JFK such as Atlanta and Dallas or is it just for flights heading due West?

I ask that question about runways because during the summer peak when JFK has two departing runways (22R and 31L at KK being the most common configuration), flights heading to the east and north (mostly flights across the Atlantic) generally use 22R and flights to the west and south (mostly domestic flights) generally use 31L at KK. With this new re-design, will all the flights heading to the west coast now use 22R (during this normal summer runway configuration)?

 
daviation
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RE: NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:10 pm

For my 2-cents, since this has national ramifications, we need federal money to fund a high-speed rail connection at SWF to bring people quickly into NYC. SWF already has a 12,000-ft runway, and a 6,000-ft intersecting runway that can be lengthened. The entire airport is pathetically underutilized.
PlaneFlown:717,727,737,747,757,767,777,DC8,DC9,DC10,L1011,F100,A300,319,320,321,330,340,CRJ,ERJ,E190,Av85,DH8,Beaver,ATR
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:14 pm

New York City delays....a top-50 or top-60 Airliners.net chestnut.

Unless and until some means is developed to move more a/c in and out of the NYC airports, there is only one way to meaningfully reduce NYC-area delays. That is to reduce the slots at NYC airports to an amount that works in all weather conditions.

As is well-known at this site, DCA is slotted below its good-weather capacity, and has minimal delays. Something similar probably needs to be done at NYC. Presumably the FAA would take slots away from carriers on as close to a proportional basis as possible. There would of course be major court fights, with carriers claiming they are losing more slots than they should, and that their competitors aren't losing enough. But that's what would need to be done.

IMO, RJ's aren't the problem in and of themselves. The problem is high frequency (which, granted RJ's help exacerbate). It's not clear to me why any market from any New York airport needs more than six or eight frequencies a day on any given carrier.

For instance, my home market is doing its share. US was running 6-8 weekday Dash 8's on ROC-LGA for a long time, probably partially to help squat on slots. Now, with the slot wap, DL is planning to run four CR7's on ROC-LGA. This still gives Rochester businessmen decent frequency and similar seat capacity. This approach needs to be multiplied over many, many markets from LGA.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
tommy767
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RE: NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:19 pm

Quoting Shawn Patrick (Reply 8):
And yet... DL insists on making a megahub in the NYC area.

Well DL's hub in JFK has been there for years. They are trying to make an O&D hub out of LGA. We'll see how that works out for them.

If anything UA's EWR hub should be scrutinized. There's a ton of useless RJ and prop feed into that airport which causes delays. Just when your 757 from BCN is doing circles with low fuel over NJ, a prop from Scranton needs to land  
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
26point2
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RE: NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:53 pm

Regular Presidential TFRs in NYC don't help. I've seen more TFRs there in the past year than any other region I get to. I doubt this is factored into the equation though.
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:22 pm

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 29):
If anything UA's EWR hub should be scrutinized. There's a ton of useless RJ and prop feed into that airport which causes delays. Just when your 757 from BCN is doing circles with low fuel over NJ, a prop from Scranton needs to land

Useless by what standard? RJ and prop feed from small markets contributes vital value to UA's EWR hub, especially to high-yield international flights. 3-4 flights a day into EWR from small markets aren't the problem. It's the 10+ departures a day to major markets that clutter the airport. There's no reason, for instance, why UA needs to fly more than 7-8 dailies to any market from congested EWR.

Everybody can contribute a little, though. On a smaller market, say three Q400's and an ERJ instead of five ERJs daily. To a big market, 7x daily (say 3 762 + 5 737) instead of 10x daily (10x 737). Seat capacity, and presumably yields, can stay similar. And the airport's total slots could be reduced, giving more breathing room for the notorious Northeastern bad weather noted by Zippyjet.

It's called, time to bring back some bigger a/c, including jumbos, on domestic flights. And the spotters would get some more interesting a/c to look at.  

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
tommy767
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RE: NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:28 pm

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 31):
Useless by what standard? RJ and prop feed from small markets contributes vital value to UA's EWR hub, especially to high-yield international flights. 3-4 flights a day into EWR from small markets aren't the problem. It's the 10+ departures a day to major markets that clutter the airport. There's no reason, for instance, why UA needs to fly more than 7-8 dailies to any market from congested EWR.

I mean there's also no reason why they need to fly EWR-BTV 6-7 times a day as well. That can be condensed to just a few Q400s mixed in with a mainline jet (god forbid UA would fly a 737 on a non business market short haul route like they used to.)

EWR-BOS which is something like 10x a day makes sense because they are trying to compete with the shuttles. EWR-MCO at 10x a day makes sense because it's the most heavily served route from EWR. But some of these short haul prop and RJ destinations really don't need to be served with that much frequency. This clogs up air space -- hence why the 'new" DL LGA hub isn't a fantastic idea.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:42 pm

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 32):
I mean there's also no reason why they need to fly EWR-BTV 6-7 times a day as well. That can be condensed to just a few Q400s mixed in with a mainline jet (god forbid UA would fly a 737 on a non business market short haul route like they used to.)

We can thank Mr. Tilton, if I remember right, for parking all UA 737's. If he and Smisek wanted CO pilots to get on board with more 70-100 seat a/c in the merger, that probably wasn't the smartest idea. (BTW, whatever happened with the CO 70-seat jet scope clause?) Lots of medium-size markets used to see those UA 737's.

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 32):
EWR-BOS which is something like 10x a day makes sense because they are trying to compete with the shuttles. EWR-MCO at 10x a day makes sense because it's the most heavily served route from EWR. But some of these short haul prop and RJ destinations really don't need to be served with that much frequency. This clogs up air space -- hence why the 'new" DL LGA hub isn't a fantastic idea.

Why do the shuttles need to be 15x daily, or whatever they are? Aren't they much smaller and run with E-Jets nowadays? Why not 8x 737's or A319's? As for MCO, it may be time to go back to the future: say 6x or 7x daily 767's. Pull some out of the desert if needed.

Domestic markets of all sizses can make a contribution, which politically is probably the only way to get slot reductions in NYC to fly.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
tommy767
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RE: NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:48 pm

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 33):
We can thank Mr. Tilton, if I remember right, for parking all UA 737's. If he and Smisek wanted CO pilots to get on board with more 70-100 seat a/c in the merger, that probably wasn't the smartest idea. (BTW, whatever happened with the CO 70-seat jet scope clause?) Lots of medium-size markets used to see those UA 737's.

Tilton had nothing to do with this. Back in the Bethune era, CO used to fly 737s and M80s on a lot of secondary markets from EWR. Then by the mid-2000s ALL expressjet.

The CO 70 seat scope goes on unresolved at this time.

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 33):
Why do the shuttles need to be 15x daily, or whatever they are? Aren't they much smaller and run with E-Jets nowadays? Why not 8x 737's or A319's? As for MCO, it may be time to go back to the future: say 6x or 7x daily 767's. Pull some out of the desert if needed.

MCO is mainly 757s from EWR (MX base.)

BOS is mainly from EWR 738s (some 735, 739, occasional weekend Q400 mixed in there.)

There is demand on these routings. Its routes like EWR-CLT, RDU, and ATL where there's a huge mix of express (Ejet and Q400) and only 1-2 mainline a day. Routes like these you can take away the express and just have a few mainline on the routes instead.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
Flighty
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RE: NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:02 pm

NYC delays are a national problem that clearly justifies federal action. Just like a busy intersection in a major city, police (or ATC) have every right to dictate traffic flow at their discretion. What I am getting at is, movement counts should be reduced at all 3 airports. There is enough airspace for a few thousand flights daily. Flights above the smooth operating count should be grounded. The ordering should be by auction. Just shrugging shoulders and "hey what can ya do" is like a Cairo solution to vehicle traffic. Just a free-for-all POS situation. Hey what can ya do, buddy.
 
tommy767
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RE: NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:19 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 35):
NYC delays are a national problem that clearly justifies federal action. Just like a busy intersection in a major city, police (or ATC) have every right to dictate traffic flow at their discretion. What I am getting at is, movement counts should be reduced at all 3 airports. There is enough airspace for a few thousand flights daily. Flights above the smooth operating count should be grounded. The ordering should be by auction. Just shrugging shoulders and "hey what can ya do" is like a Cairo solution to vehicle traffic. Just a free-for-all POS situation. Hey what can ya do, buddy.

The DOT should just reduce the amount of take off/landing per hour slots. I think right now it's 80, but they should reduce it to 60-70. It will teach UA to use their slots appropriately instead of wasting it on RJ and prop frequencies. Even on a good weather day, all 3 NYC airports have flow control problems.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
khpn
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RE: NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:30 pm

Quoting point2point (Reply 17):
Back before the new Denver International Airport (pre-1995) was built, there were some who stated that the old Stapleton Airport was Responsible for Half of the U.S. Delays.

So the city just built a new airport and problem solved......

Maybe the NYC area needs to take the Denver approach.....???

HAHAHA!
reminds me of the thread that came up a year or two ago discussing how NY could pull such an endeavor off. it was a good laugh. I remember someone suggested it be placed smack in the middle of the state and a giant high speed rail system be dug under ground to connect people from NYC to the new mega airport 100 miles upstate.   
 
corinthians
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RE: NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:51 pm

Quoting daviation (Reply 27):
For my 2-cents, since this has national ramifications, we need federal money to fund a high-speed rail connection at SWF to bring people quickly into NYC. SWF already has a 12,000-ft runway, and a 6,000-ft intersecting runway that can be lengthened. The entire airport is pathetically underutilized.

That's what the PA was thinking when they bought SWF. They gave plenty of incentives to encourage airlines to start up services there. They failed miserably and recently admitted that SWF won't be a focus for future growth.

SWF is too far and I don't think a high-speed rail from Grand Central will make people want to fly from there. Similar to LTN and STN in London - they have good rail links, but nobody really wants to use them and they've essentially been relegated to budget services. If anything, SWF would be a good cargo airport, but cargo traffic isn't the problem since most cargo flights are in the middle of the night.

Quoting DCA-ROCguy" class="quote" target="_blank">DCA-ROCguy (Reply 28):
Unless and until some means is developed to move more a/c in and out of the NYC airports, there is only one way to meaningfully reduce NYC-area delays. That is to reduce the slots at NYC airports to an amount that works in all weather conditions.

As is well-known at this site, DCA is slotted below its good-weather capacity, and has minimal delays. Something similar probably needs to be done at NYC. Presumably the FAA would take slots away from carriers on as close to a proportional basis as possible. There would of course be major court fights, with carriers claiming they are losing more slots than they should, and that their competitors aren't losing enough. But that's what would need to be done.

IMO, RJ's aren't the problem in and of themselves. The problem is high frequency (which, granted RJ's help exacerbate). It's not clear to me why any market from any New York airport needs more than six or eight frequencies a day on any given carrier.
DCA is slotted to bad-weather capacity because it's essentially a one runway operation. Reducing LGA to bad-weather capability downgrades it to a one runway operation. LGA's arrival rate now in good conditions is about 36-44 planes per hour, depending on the runway configuration using two runways. This goes down in bad weather and to 24 per hour and a one runway operation. The carriers aren't going to go for that and you are wasting excess capacity, especially since the weather isn't bad at all times.

Besides, the FAA already reduced capacity at all three airports. JFK and EWR were reduced to 83 movements an hour and LGA was reduced to 71 from 75. This reduction has had an impact and regardless of how misleading this article was, delays are way down compared to 2007. If NYC/PHL are responsible for half if the delays compared to 33% before, it probably means that delays at the other airports have gone down even more because their traffic levels have plummeted compared to five years ago.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 35):
NYC delays are a national problem that clearly justifies federal action. Just like a busy intersection in a major city, police (or ATC) have every right to dictate traffic flow at their discretion. What I am getting at is, movement counts should be reduced at all 3 airports. There is enough airspace for a few thousand flights daily. Flights above the smooth operating count should be grounded. The ordering should be by auction. Just shrugging shoulders and "hey what can ya do" is like a Cairo solution to vehicle traffic. Just a free-for-all POS situation. Hey what can ya do, buddy.

The FAA already took action and reduced the number of slots and delays have gone down. Just look at the statistics because they speak for themselves. If they want to take further action, they should slot PHL too and that would probably help immensely for the region.

As for the auction, Bush tried to ram that through and the courts ruled it illegal and the slots deemed to be the airlines' property. The DOT recently conducted an auction for the LGA slot divestiture and guess who got the proceeds? Not the DOT, but the airlines who already owned the slots. You're dealing with private property rights now and the government doesn't have the right or authority to confiscate it. If you think otherwise, then you deserve everything bad the government does to you.

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 36):
The DOT should just reduce the amount of take off/landing per hour slots. I think right now it's 80, but they should reduce it to 60-70. It will teach UA to use their slots appropriately instead of wasting it on RJ and prop frequencies. Even on a good weather day, all 3 NYC airports have flow control problems.

Reducing it to 60 or 70 would be a huge waste of resources since JFK and EWR can handle a lot more than that in good weather. JFK's problem is that LGA is too close and that reduces flow options. And anyways, traffic will grow in the future as more people will fly. The only solution would be to somehow make use of all four JFK runways or build another runway at JFK or EWR. Just look what happened with LHR. That's slotted and you'll never see anything smaller than an A319 there. That hasn't reduced delays at all and delays there are much worse than at any of our airports. Bigger planes use up more runway space and require bigger separation.

[Edited 2012-01-30 09:53:30]
 
mogandoCI
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RE: NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:11 pm

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 32):
EWR-BOS which is something like 10x a day makes sense because they are trying to compete with the shuttles.

By the time you factor in getting to the airport early, dealing with TSA, and potential delays of all reasons, Amtrak Acela is actually a really attractive alternative for the business pax that enjoys the shuttle (unless for those obsessed with obtaining triple titanium status via segments)
 
tommy767
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RE: NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:19 pm

Quoting corinthians (Reply 38):
Reducing it to 60 or 70 would be a huge waste of resources since JFK and EWR can handle a lot more than that in good weather.

I haven't recalled one day where good weather has led to a normal on time window out of EWR. If the wind blows the wrong way there are always holds and delays.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 39):
Reducing it to 60 or 70 would be a huge waste of resources since JFK and EWR can handle a lot more than that in good weather.

Acela's only worth it to DC. Up to BOS it's expensive, delay prone, and makes a ton of stops. Not everyone wants to be stuck on a train for 5-6 hours and/or don't have that kind of time to waste.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
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STT757
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RE: NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:36 pm

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 36):
It will teach UA to use their slots appropriately instead of wasting it on RJ and prop frequencies

What is UA doing differently at EWR than any other us airline at any other hub? Their use of RJ's at EWR is not out of line with any other US airline hub, in fact UA probably has a better mainline to RJ ratio at EWR than most other hubs. They do within their own hub network:

In fact out of CLE, DEN, IAH, SFO, LAX, ORD, IAD etc.. EWR and SFO are the only UA hubs with more mainline flights than RJ's.

IAH
264 ML
366 R

ORD
215 ML
401 R

EWR
213 ML
203 R

DEN
149 ML
252 R

IAD
97 ML
252 R

LAX
95 ML
120 R

CLE
38 ML
169 R

SFO
133 ML
132 R

Why do you want to punish UA at EWR so much? It's not their fault the airspace is so congested, they have been operating a hub at EWR since 1986. Their domestic frequencies on routes like BOS, BTV, BUF etc. are greatly reduced from what they were in the '90s. I remember when EWR-BOS was 21 daily MD-80s.

If you want to complain include DL and B6 who have been the Johnny come lately to the market, they're the ones flooding the airspace over the past 10 years. CO/UA has probably reduced their frequencies.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
Flighty
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RE: NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:01 pm

Quoting corinthians (Reply 38):
You're dealing with private property rights now and the government doesn't have the right or authority to confiscate it. If you think otherwise, then you deserve everything bad the government does to you.

Yes, I think otherwise. The access to a city is eminent domain, not that difficult to see that. I understand a court ruling went in favor of private slot ownership. Somtimes dumb things happen. Again. This is cascading throughout the country. Schedules must be padded, more aircraft bought, and an absolute horror amount of fuel (and citizen time) is wasted in patterns.

It is clear that certain airlines aren't being constrained to allow citizen transportation to work properly (whether because they own the slots or other matters) and yes, I disagree with that. This isn't a difficult problem to solve, unless "someone" (cough cough) doesn't want it solved. Which is how many things in NY/DC work, isn't it?
 
corinthians
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RE: NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:22 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 42):
Yes, I think otherwise. The access to a city is eminent domain, not that difficult to see that. I understand a court ruling went in favor of private slot ownership. Somtimes dumb things happen. Again. This is cascading throughout the country. Schedules must be padded, more aircraft bought, and an absolute horror amount of fuel (and citizen time) is wasted in patterns.

If that's the case, you're living in the wrong place, pal, and you should move to a country like China where they don't respect property rights. And since you feel this way, you have zero right to complain if the government takes away your house for the "greater good".

Quoting Flighty (Reply 42):
It is clear that certain airlines aren't being constrained to allow citizen transportation to work properly (whether because they own the slots or other matters) and yes, I disagree with that. This isn't a difficult problem to solve, unless "someone" (cough cough) doesn't want it solved. Which is how many things in NY/DC work, isn't it?

Airlines are being constrained. That's why there are slots. As I said before, delays are way down across the board, regardless of what this article says.
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:24 pm

Quoting corinthians (Reply 38):
DCA is slotted to bad-weather capacity because it's essentially a one runway operation. Reducing LGA to bad-weather capability downgrades it to a one runway operation. LGA's arrival rate now in good conditions is about 36-44 planes per hour, depending on the runway configuration using two runways. This goes down in bad weather and to 24 per hour and a one runway operation. The carriers aren't going to go for that and you are wasting excess capacity, especially since the weather isn't bad at all times.

DCA is also slotted below capacity for a couple of other reasons too: NIMBY pressure, and MWAA's desire to protect IAD. But regardless of the number of runways, DCA works. Being slotted somewhat below good-weather capacity works. Apparently the NYC airports, despite slot past reductions, haven't been reduced enough. As for proximity to JFK, that's just one more consideration to be taken into account when figuring a reliable capacity for LGA.

Slot LGA, for instance, for say 30-31 arrivals per hour, and let the market use bigger planes. Whether the carriers "go for it" or not, should not be the FAA's first consideration. Airports are public facilities to be operated for the public good, which means, among other things, trying to maximize reliability. Also, what difference does aircraft size and separation make if you're talking about somehwat reduced slots that give a little breathing room? And how much difference is there in hold time between a 737 or a CRJ-200?

Quoting corinthians (Reply 38):
If they want to take further action, they should slot PHL too and that would probably help immensely for the region.

That might be a good idea.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:57 pm

Quoting corinthians (Reply 38):
The carriers aren't going to go for that and you are wasting excess capacity, especially since the weather isn't bad at all times.

But it isn't good at all times either. As is, even on good days, flights heading into the NYC area take delays in the form of miles-in-trail restrictions and vectoring.

Quoting corinthians (Reply 38):
This reduction has had an impact and regardless of how misleading this article was, delays are way down compared to 2007.

Delays are mainly down because of increased schedule padding. If you give yourself long enough block times, you can make almost any flight be "on-time".

Quoting corinthians (Reply 38):
You're dealing with private property rights now and the government doesn't have the right or authority to confiscate it.

Then how did the government reduce slots at LGA, JFK and EWR as you previously mentioned?

Quoting corinthians (Reply 38):
You're dealing with private property rights now and the government doesn't have the right or authority to confiscate it.

The problem is that slots are a function of air traffic control which is performed by the FAA...not the airlines. So why do the airlines own the slots? By allowing the airlines to permanently own the slots, you give the FAA no flexibility to adjust capacity, plus you encourage the airlines to squat on slots just to keep them out of the hands of competitors.

Quoting corinthians (Reply 38):
Reducing it to 60 or 70 would be a huge waste of resources since JFK and EWR can handle a lot more than that in good weather.

As mentioned before, flights going to JFK/EWR/LGA are delayed even in good weather.

Quoting corinthians (Reply 43):
As I said before, delays are way down across the board, regardless of what this article says.

Really? In August, only 62% of all flights arriving at JFK were on-time. EWR was 60%. You call that an improvement.

http://airconsumer.dot.gov/reports/2011/October/2011OctATCR.PDF

If delays weren't a problem, why does DL have block times for flights doing DCA-JFK that are as long as 1 hour and 45 minutes!! As I said before, you can make most flights on-time with a long enough block time. Of course, the downside is the billions in extra cost.

Quoting corinthians (Reply 38):
That hasn't reduced delays at all and delays there are much worse than at any of our airports.

Sorry, but the data doesn't support this. On-time performance at LHR is just as good as JFK/EWR. Of course, schedule padding makes many of these comparisons somewhat pointless.

Quoting corinthians (Reply 38):
That's slotted and you'll never see anything smaller than an A319 there.

Regional jets fly out of LHR everyday...albeit fewer than airports like EWR and JFK.
 
tommy767
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RE: NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:05 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 41):
Why do you want to punish UA at EWR so much? It's not their fault the airspace is so congested, they have been operating a hub at EWR since 1986.

It's not punishing, it's regulating. When there are only 60% of an airport's flights ontime (on GOOD weather days) and most of the flights are done by one legacy carrier, then you know something is up. The DOT should take note.

PS: there is not a cloud in the sky in NYC right now and flight aware shows EWR with an average of a 36 minute delay. Every other major airport in the US was ontime for the most part...except EWR!
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
CO787EWR
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RE: NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:07 pm

If we had European or Asian type of High Speed Rail on the North East Corridor it would cut down on some the flights between DC-Philly-NYC-Boston. The Acela just doesn't cut it's pretty slow compared to the trains across both ponds.
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:14 pm

Quoting corinthians (Reply 43):
If that's the case, you're living in the wrong place, pal, and you should move to a country like China where they don't respect property rights. And since you feel this way, you have zero right to complain if the government takes away your house for the "greater good".

Actual private property--such as the Kelo home in New London, CT of the infamous Kelo case--is one thing. The city was out of bounds to condemn one citizen's private property to transfer it to another private owner, and the Supreme Court was wrong to let the city's law stand. IIRC, Connecticut and a number of other states subseuqently changed their laws to restrict localities from taking advantage of the Kelo decision.

A publicly-owned major commercial airport, however, is *not* private property, so it is very much another matter. As a public facility it is to be operated for the public good, including striving to maximize its reliability for users. It is also part of a national system and affects airports elsewhere.

I haven't read the latest on the status of slots. Last I knew is that they are public property that airlines are essentially allowed to treat as if they were private property (buying, selling, etc.) on FAA suffrance. But the idea that slots are somehow some legacy carrier's sacrosanct "private property" is bad policy to say the least. Clearly, slots aren't seen as purely private property, or DOJ couldn't require divestitures in accordance with antitrust law, or, as noted by FlyPNS1, the FAA couldn't reduce them.

To whatever degree law currently treats slots as private property, it should be changed. Which would be in complete respect for US history on actual private property, and good policy concerning the management of limited public airport capacity in a major market.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
Indy
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RE: NYC Airports Responsible For Half Of US Delays

Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:44 pm

Are these delays really necessary? Could delays be reduced if airlines went with larger jets instead of scheduling smaller jets at greater frequency? IND to the NY market totals about 14 regional jets a day. That could be cut to 5 or 6 mainline a day. I know business travelers like greater frequency. But when you deal with travel delays like that the business traveler just might have to be out of luck. He or she can get greater frequencies to another market. Once you've created a travel mess like the NY area some of your wants go away. I think reducing the number of RJs that fly into the area could help.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air

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