jetskipper
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US Carriers Flying Same Trans-oceanic Route

Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:38 am

Is ORD-CDG the only trans-oceanic route flown by three different US carriers? There are multiple city pairs with two airlines serving the route, but ORD-CDG is the only route I can think of that has three (UA, AA, DL).
 
United1
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RE: US Carriers Flying Same Trans-oceanic Route

Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:40 am

Quoting jetskipper (Thread starter):
Is ORD-CDG the only trans-oceanic route flown by three different US carriers?

LAX-NRT is the only other one I can think of.
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EricR
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RE: US Carriers Flying Same Trans-oceanic Route

Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:59 am

JFK-SDQ (AA, DL, B6)
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: US Carriers Flying Same Trans-oceanic Route

Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:16 am

Quoting EricR (Reply 2):
JFK-SDQ (AA, DL, B6)

Is that trans-oceanic though? In the OP's defination, I would think he means intercontinental flights.
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EricR
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RE: US Carriers Flying Same Trans-oceanic Route

Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:26 am

Yeah, I admit that was a stretch.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: US Carriers Flying Same Trans-oceanic Route

Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:27 am

Quoting EricR (Reply 4):

Not "international" and technically not intercontinental but LAX-HNL has UA/AA/DL/HA.
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olddominion727
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RE: US Carriers Flying Same Trans-oceanic Route

Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:28 am

HNL-NRT (DL,HA,UA), HNL-OSA (DL,HA,UA), HNL-FUK (DL,HA), LAX-SYD (UA,DL AA*) AA Codeshare with QF, UA,HA HNL-NYC* (It's not international, but the longest domestic nonstop flights over 9.5hrs)
 
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American 767
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RE: US Carriers Flying Same Trans-oceanic Route

Sun Jan 29, 2012 6:05 am

JFK-LHR: AA/BA and DL
EWR-LHR: UA/CO (and BA if you consider it as being "AA")

If you combine JFK and EWR in one destination and call it NYC, then you can say "NYC-LHR" is flown by all three major big US carriers: AA, DL and UA. All three together, if you include BA, that's at least 15 flights a day if not more!
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atcsundevil
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RE: US Carriers Flying Same Trans-oceanic Route

Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:53 am

Quoting American 767 (Reply 8):
JFK-LHR: AA/BA and DL
EWR-LHR: UA/CO (and BA if you consider it as being "AA")

If you combine JFK and EWR in one destination and call it NYC, then you can say "NYC-LHR" is flown by all three major big US carriers: AA, DL and UA. All three together, if you include BA, that's at least 15 flights a day if not more!

And Virgin, because they codeshare with Virgin America. Going that far makes it all a pretty big stretch. For LAX-SYD, it would technically be United, Delta, American via Qantas, and Virgin America via Virgin Australia. I think using codeshares defeats the purpose!
 
ha763
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RE: US Carriers Flying Same Trans-oceanic Route

Sun Jan 29, 2012 1:22 pm

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 9):
I think using codeshares defeats the purpose!

What about joint ventures where it is metal neutral?

Quoting olddominion727 (Reply 6):
HNL-NRT (DL,HA,UA)

HA flies to HND, not NRT. For HNL-TYO, yes there are 3 U.S. carriers on the route.
However, if you consider the UA/ANA and AA/JAL trans-pac joint ventures, which are metal neutral, then HNL-HND has HA, UA/ANA, and AA/JAL.

Quoting olddominion727 (Reply 6):
HNL-OSA (DL,HA,UA)

UA nor ANA fly HNL-OSA. But AA/JAL does and with the JV.
 
jfk777
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RE: US Carriers Flying Same Trans-oceanic Route

Sun Jan 29, 2012 1:50 pm

Quoting American 767 (Reply 7):
JFK-LHR: AA/BA and DL
EWR-LHR: UA/CO (and BA if you consider it as being "AA")

LAX to LHR : AA & UA

ORD to LHR: UA & AA

BOS to LHR : AA & DL

MIA to LHR: DL & AA
 
ORDJOE
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RE: US Carriers Flying Same Trans-oceanic Route

Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:47 pm

I suppose back when UA had a presence at JFK there wold have been overlap on a couple EU routes with AA, UA and DL.
ORD-BRU;ORD-FRA UA and AA for a while, but AA pulled these routes recently.
SEA-NRT DL and UA (At one time AA operated this route, but I am not sure if UA and DL were also doing this at the same time)
SFO-NRT DL and UA

LAX-NRT. UA AA DL
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: US Carriers Flying Same Trans-oceanic Route

Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:05 pm

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 8):

Exactly. It takes away from the original intent and spirit of the thread IMO. We all know what code-shares and JVs mean but for this purpose I thinky your own metal is what satisfies the question. Saying LAX-SYD is AA/DL/UA is a bit much..
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UAL777UK
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RE: US Carriers Flying Same Trans-oceanic Route

Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:40 pm

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 12):

Exactly. It takes away from the original intent and spirit of the thread IMO. We all know what code-shares and JVs mean but for this purpose I thinky your own metal is what satisfies the question. Saying LAX-SYD is AA/DL/UA is a bit much..

Agree, we have to be taalking about the airlines owm metal or this thread will get rediculous.
 
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RE: US Carriers Flying Same Trans-oceanic Route

Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:23 pm

Quoting olddominion727 (Reply 6):
LAX-SYD (UA,DL AA*) AA Codeshare with QF, UA,

LAX-SYD is not flown by AA. The OP refers to routes flown by US carriers.
If you include codeshares, there will be many more routes.
 
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American 767
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RE: US Carriers Flying Same Trans-oceanic Route

Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:20 pm

Just to add an additional comment to my last post on this thread: UA was flying JFK-LHR at one time in the 90s so even excluding EWR, and if you exclude codeshares and joint ventures, JFK-LHR qualifies because it has been flown by all three major US carriers, AA, DL and UA although not all at the same time.
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SRQKEF
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RE: US Carriers Flying Same Trans-oceanic Route

Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:59 pm

If you combine JFK+EWR you should get a few destinations NYC-Europe. Are you talking about city pairs or airports specifically?

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American 767
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RE: US Carriers Flying Same Trans-oceanic Route

Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:01 pm

Quoting SRQKEF (Reply 16):
If you combine JFK+EWR you should get a few destinations NYC-Europe. Are you talking about city pairs or airports specifically?

That's exactly what I thought of. I thought JFK+EWR combined would make me add more destinations in Europe, BRU being one of them, because AA and DL fly to a lot of places in Europe out of JFK and UA (CO) does the same out of EWR.

So to clarify your point, if you talk about city pairs, such as JFK and EWR combined, then yes you should get more destinations in Europe. But if you talk about airports specifically then as I point out in my last reply, JFK-LHR qualifies because the route has been flown by all three airlines each on their own metal: AA, DL and UA.

I started to talk about city pairs because I had forgotten UA had flown JFK-LHR on its own, but then I realized this would add more destinations in Europe. And I also realized that not talking about city pairs, JFK-LHR would be an example.

Final answer: I ended up talking about both to clarify my examples.

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citation501sp
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RE: US Carriers Flying Same Trans-oceanic Route

Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:07 pm

SEA to NRT may get a third again with NH, however most would speculate that UA would drop the route and let NH fly it and reap the Joint Venture benefits.

501sp

[Edited 2012-01-29 14:10:12]
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RE: US Carriers Flying Same Trans-oceanic Route

Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:34 pm

Quoting ordjoe (Reply 11):
I suppose back when UA had a presence at JFK there wold have been overlap on a couple EU routes with AA, UA and DL.

Never... The only European destination UA ever served from JFK was LHR, which DL did not, and legally couldn't. Before open skies only two US carriers could legally fly JFK-LHR (or to LHR at all).

However, there was definitely an overlap on JFK-CDG between AA, DL, and TW, though it wasn't very long as it took a long time for AA to move to ORY. If you consider CDG/ORY as one airport it continued for quite a long time. I'm not sure if there was any overlap between the three on other routes -- JFK-FRA maybe? There also might have been between AA, NW, and UA on JFK-NRT, I don't remember the exact dates AA started that route and NW and UA ended it but they all must have been within a few years of each other.
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RE: US Carriers Flying Same Trans-oceanic Route

Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:52 pm

Quoting ordjoe (Reply 11):
SEA-NRT DL and UA (At one time AA operated this route, but I am not sure if UA and DL were also doing this at the same time)

CO also operated this route with a 742, don't know the exact time frame though.
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RE: US Carriers Flying Same Trans-oceanic Route

Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:57 pm

Quoting American 767 (Reply 17):
Quoting SRQKEF (Reply 16):
If you combine JFK+EWR you should get a few destinations NYC-Europe. Are you talking about city pairs or airports specifically?

That's exactly what I thought of. I thought JFK+EWR combined would make me add more destinations in Europe, BRU being one of them, because AA and DL fly to a lot of places in Europe out of JFK and UA (CO) does the same out of EWR.

As a sidenote, I was trying to think of all the carriers that at one time or another have operated scheduled passenger services between the New York area and London (all airports combined). Those I can think of (have probably missed one or two):

U.S. carriers
Pan Am
American Overseas Airlines (acquired by Pan Am in 1950)
TWA
American
United
Continental
Delta
People Express
Eos Airlines (all-business class 752s JFK-Stansted 2005-2008)
MAXjet (all-business class 762s JFK-Stansted 2005-2007)

British carriers
BOAC
British Airways
British Caledonian
Virgin Atlantic
Laker Airways (Skytrain)
Silverjet (all-business class 762s EWR-Luton 2007-2008)

Foreign carriers (5th freedom)
Air India
El Al
Kuwait Airways
Qantas
Japan Airlines

Any others?

[Edited 2012-01-29 15:22:15]
 
Gemuser
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RE: US Carriers Flying Same Trans-oceanic Route

Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:09 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 21):
Foreign carriers (5th freedom)
Air India
El Al
Kuwait Airways

Any others?

QF JFK-LHR

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RE: US Carriers Flying Same Trans-oceanic Route

Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:14 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 21):
Foreign carriers (5th freedom)
Air India
El Al
Kuwait Airways

Any others?
Quoting gemuser (Reply 22):
QF JFK-LHR

Also JAL JFK-LHR
 
Viscount724
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RE: US Carriers Flying Same Trans-oceanic Route

Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:23 pm

Quoting gemuser (Reply 22):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 21):
Foreign carriers (5th freedom)
Air India
El Al
Kuwait Airways

Any others?

QF JFK-LHR

Right, forgot about QF. Also forgot about JAL which operated around-the-world service via HND-HNL-SFO-JFK-LHR with 5th freedom rights U.S.-LHR for a few years in the 1960s/early '70s using DC-8s. Added QF and JL to my llist above.
 
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RE: US Carriers Flying Same Trans-oceanic Route

Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:35 am

What does 5th freedom mean? I get a non US or NON UK airline can carry Pax from JFK to London (I once almost bought a ticket on Kuwait years before the Kuwait war- but wound up on Pan Am instead) but I dont know why it's called "5th Freedom".

Would that same term have applied to the ex JAL flight from JFK to GRU?

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Viscount724
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RE: US Carriers Flying Same Trans-oceanic Route

Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:12 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 24):
What does 5th freedom mean?

It's the term used when a carrier is granted local traffic rights between two foreign points on a flight originating or terminating in the carrier's home country. Examples: SQ JFK-FRA, CX YVR-JFK, PR YVR-LAS, AC SCL-EZE.

Quoting VC10er (Reply 25):
I dont know why it's called "5th Freedom".

It just comes next in the numerical sequence in the 5 freedoms that were established as part of the Chicago Convention in 1944 which developed the groundrules for international aviation for the post-WWII period. Brief summary:

1st freedom - the right to overfly another country without landing.
2nd freedom - the right to stop in a foreign country for technical reasons only (e.g. a fuel stop).
3rd freedom - the right to carry passengers/cargo from the airline's home country to a foreign country.
4th freedom - the right to carry passengers/cargo from a foreign country to the airline's home country.
5th freedom - as described above.

Subsequently, although they're not official terms from the Chicago Convention, 6th through 9th freedom terminology has been developed to refer to the following:

6th freedom - carrying passengers/cargo between two foreign countries via the airline's home country (e.g. BA JFK-LHR-JNB, AC LAX-YYZ-FRA). With fairly rare, that's almost always permitted without any need to state it in bilaterals.

7th freedom - the right to carry passengers/cargo between two foreign countries on flights that do not originate/terminate in the airline's home country. (e.g. FedEx has 7th freedom rights from several countries in Asia and can base aircraft there and carry local traffic to various other countries without any link to flights to/from the U.S.)

8th freedom - also known as cabotage, meaning carrying passengers/cargo on domestic routes in a country other than the airline's home country on a flight that originates/terminates in the airline's home country (the equivalent of 5th freedom except the points concerned are domestic rather than international).

9th freedom - also known as "stand-alone cabotage", the equivalent of 7th freedom except where the points involved are domestic rather than international (e.g. EasyJet, a British carrier, basing aircraft in France and carrying domestic passengers within France.That's permitted in the EU due to the EU "single market" agreement where the airline's nationality is irrelevant and any EU airline can operate anywhere in the EU, including domestic services within other countries. Another of the very rare examples is the Australia-New Zealand single market, where Australian carriers can operate domestic services within New Zealand and vice versa.

Quoting VC10er (Reply 25):
Would that same term have applied to the ex JAL flight from JFK to GRU?

Yes, that's 5th freedom.
 
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RE: US Carriers Flying Same Trans-oceanic Route

Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:51 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 26):

You are a human encyclopedia! Thank you. We need a 10th freedom for edible food!

Thanks so much
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RE: US Carriers Flying Same Trans-oceanic Route

Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:33 am

Quoting VC10er (Reply 27):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 26):We need a 10th freedom for edible food!

Which will lead, inevitably, to a 11th Freedom ... Free cookies for everyone!

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 26):

Great explanation. I knew what 1-5 were because I learned it in a college aviation law class, and I had the gist of 6-9, but that explained it very clearly. Since they're not official (in the sense they aren't spelled out in a convention or treaty), I never really learned 6-9 except from it being discussed on here. Thanks for spelling it out for us!

Quoting ha763 (Reply 9):
What about joint ventures where it is metal neutral?

Yeah, I still don't think that's the intent. Unless the airplane has an American flag and an N reg, then I don't think it should be counted. To say that AA technically flies IAD-LHR just because they have a JV with BA, who is actually flying the route, it isn't actually AA flying the route, even though they're making some money off of it.

Personally, I like the idea of sticking to US carriers, no JVs or codeshares, although it might be interesting to also note what foreign carriers also fly the route as direct competition for reference.

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