olddominion727
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Texas & Int'l Service

Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:43 am

It seems that IAH is far better at securing long-term international service over DFW. Is there a reason with them both being gynormous fortress hubs? DFW has good service, but tends to lose it after 6mos-18mos (especially if ran by AA). As far as I can remember, AA pulled DFWMAN, DFWMAD, DFWZRH, DFWOSA, DFWLIM, DFWBRU--The only service I can see staying long term DFW-TYO, LON, PAR, FRA, SAO. DFW to CCS (1x weekly), NAS & GIG (3x weekly)... CO seems to be quite a bit better than AA at their IAH hub. Now I love AA, so I was just curious on thoughts. Are they cutting because of the BK? Any further cuts we may see ie LAX-STL, SJC-ORD, ONT-DFW, DFW-RIC?
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: Texas & Int'l Service

Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:48 am

Higher yielding O&D maybe?

When 2 destinations are so close to each other, with the multitude of other options in the US to connect through, sometimes it looks like some markets should be happy with what they already have and work with that.

Routes will come and go, but with AA and the new UA around, both cities will maintain a significant level of service into the future.
 
shanderawx
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RE: Texas & Int'l Service

Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:28 am

The oil and gas industry makes Houston a somewhat more international city than Dallas, and the local community likes to emphasize that our consular corps is one of the largest in the nation. The Texas Medical Center and the large shipping port keep this an international city as well. Dallas was traditionally a white collar city with interests in banking, insurance, and regional offices of national corporations. Houston was nitty-gritty, an oil and shrimp, bourbon and booze city. These generalizations no longer hold and the two cities are now more similar than different with major corporate presences, outstanding medical facilities, and diversified economies. Dallas maintains a stronger Texan flavor, Houston relishes its more international feel. With major hubs at the leading airports of both cities, the international service for each is exceptional. The former Continental's move to be a hub for Mexico and Central America has paid off wisely and IAH has more flights to these regions than any other US carrier from any other US city. Both cities' transoceanic air service pales by comparison with the services of JFK, LAX, or MIA and I cannot see that Texas cities will ever surpass these centers, as much for geography as anything else.
 
jfk777
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RE: Texas & Int'l Service

Sun Jan 29, 2012 1:57 pm

The difference between DFW and IAH is most of DFW's international service is by AA. Houston's is more diversified with the oil industry, Continental flies a very similar parttern of international flights as AA does form DFW.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Texas & Int'l Service

Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:50 pm

I think IAH may need to really expand after 2014, because once the new canal locks at the Panama Canal opens, you will see a LOT more ship traffic--aka a lot more business in general--operating in the Houston-Galveston area.
 
commavia
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RE: Texas & Int'l Service

Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:05 pm

Houston is a larger international gateway than DFW for several reasons:

1. First and foremost, the energy industry drives a monumental amount of traffic to/from locales all over the world, and much of that traffic skews extremely high-yielding and premium. As such, Houston is able to support more service to energy-related markets (AMS, LOS, DOH, CCS, etc.) than DFW ever could.

2. Because of the nature of the respective airports' hub airlines, Houston has historically taken on more importance within the Continental (now United) network as the prime gateway to Latin America, and as such supports substantially more service to Latin America (particularly Mexico and Central America), whereas DFW is AA's secondary regional gateway behind Miami.

3. Finally, geographical reality dictates that by its very nature as a coastal port (and one of the world's largest at that), the Houston region is naturally going to have broader and more globalized commercial links - and not just involving energy - than the DFW Metroplex, which tends to be a more domestic commercial hub with more domestic-focused industries like finance, aerospace/defense, IT, etc.

Despite the above, the international market at DFW is growing, and DFW has in the last several years added an impressive roster of new international markets and airlines, including (but not limited to) MAD (AA), SYD (QF), DXB (EK, starting next week), GIG (AA), AMS (KL, for now at least), etc. and seen increased capacity on other longstanding routes including LHR and ICN. DFW is a huge market - a larger population center than Metro Houston, in fact - and DFW Airport is a larger and busier hub than Bush down in Houston. So, t is logical to presume that international air traffic demand will only continue to increase over time to/from the Metroplex. Nonetheless, it is just a reality that Houston will likely continue to be the larger international gateway in the future by virtue of 1-3 listed above.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: Texas & Int'l Service

Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:11 pm

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 1):
Higher yielding O&D maybe?

Thats true. Houston is actually overall a smaller O&D market than Dallas, but they spend way more money on air travel than the Dallas market does.

Quoting shanderawx (Reply 2):
The oil and gas industry makes Houston a somewhat more international city than Dallas,

In a nutshell, the above is the reason why.

Quoting shanderawx (Reply 2):
Dallas maintains a stronger Texan flavor, Houston relishes its more international feel.

I agree, but disagree at the same time.

Houston is the more international city hands down, but I also feel that Houston is more Texan than Dallas is. As someone who does a lot of work down in Houston Im always amazed at the fact that most people who work for the oil companies in the high rises down there still show up in boots and jeans to work. In Dallas, that would never fly. Houston tends to thumb its nose at Dallas because they think were too dressy. Dallas tends to do the reverse to Houston for dressing like slobs. Houston also has a rodeo while Dallas has none.

In short, I think Houston is more Texan and more international. Dallas (excluding Fort Worth of course) on the other hand is more American.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 3):
Houston's is more diversified with the oil industry

Indeed. It really all boils down to the cities local economies:

Houston has a much less diverse economy, but its the worldwide center of the oil industry and the center for medicine in this part of the country.

The Dallas Fort Worth area has a very diverse economy, but isnt number one at anything. The biggest sectors of the DFW economy are finance, banking, technology, telecommunication, and energy. But there is a presence of almost everything here. The downside of this diversity is that it doesnt tend to breed as many of the F and J paying passengers you see down in Houston.

Either way Dallas has really done well in the last year. Korean Air and British Airways upped service and Qantas and Emirates are coming to town. We wont ever be Houston because we dont have the oil industry, but we will also never be too far behind either.
It is what it is...
 
shanderawx
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RE: Texas & Int'l Service

Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:26 pm

Dallas is probably more dressy than Houston because it was for so long a center of the cotton industry and the associated fashion markets. But if you go to the opera or symphonies here, in general, both cities are dressier than the West Coast cities and some East Coast cities where informality is accepted.
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: Texas & Int'l Service

Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:04 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 5):
Nonetheless, it is just a reality that Houston will likely continue to be the larger international gateway in the future by virtue of 1-3 listed above.

Perfect summary, commavia.

Quoting olddominion727 (Thread starter):
As far as I can remember, AA pulled DFWMAN, DFWMAD, DFWZRH, DFWOSA, DFWLIM, DFWBRU--The only service I can see staying long term DFW-TYO, LON, PAR, FRA, SAO. DFW to CCS (1x weekly), NAS & GIG (3x weekly)

Intercontinental routes come and go all the time. Some are a hit relatively early on in the cycle, others drag by their feet but stick around for the long run, and the rest are flops. Of the routes you've mentioned, you've aggregated several examples spread throughout a few years, and each have their own unique reasons for failing, whether pertinent to the airline that operated them, the economy, aircraft availability, loss of contracts, or simply they just don't perform to expectations.

One thing I can say is I don't think this is something unique to DFW or an indication that IAH steals away the show. Rather, as others have pointed out, the airport has had some pretty good selling points from the past few years with a big uptick in international service. I don't think DFW will go the way of CVG or STL anytime soon.

Also, although this is a discussion about international traffic, the boosts in domestic carrier market share (by VX, NK, B6, etc) also bodes well for DFW and is a sign for good growth potential.

Quoting shanderawx (Reply 2):
The oil and gas industry makes Houston a somewhat more international city than Dallas, and the local community likes to emphasize that our consular corps is one of the largest in the nation.
Quoting shanderawx (Reply 7):
Dallas is probably more dressy than Houston because it was for so long a center of the cotton industry and the associated fashion markets. But if you go to the opera or symphonies here, in general, both cities are dressier than the West Coast cities and some East Coast cities where informality is accepted.

Interesting discussion points.

Having grown up in Dallas, my understanding always was that Houston, just by very nature, has always been the more "blue collar" city of the two. San Antonio is in a similar position, but obviously you don't have EK wanting to fly into SAT (despite the fact that SAT is one of the largest cities by population in the country) because the business traffic isn't there.

And, in a way it is somewhat ironic that there is such a high premium demand to fly into a blue collar city, but if the business is there, then it's somewhat of a moot point.

Additionally, the blue-collar nature of Houston has made it somewhat "easier" as a transition city for immigrants. Hence, the HUGE Latin American population, as well as Southeast Asian, and African, Middle Eastern, Southeast Asian, etc. And, of course, Houston has more "city pockets" that are densely populated. Its sheer size makes it a manageable city to blend into. Dallas, while very spread out, doesn't really have the same "city within a city" establishment quite yet. It's still very much, in my opinion, a "big small town."

There definitely pervades a greater sense of materialism in the Dallas/Plano corridors. In North Dallas, and more or less all the way up the North Dallas Tollway, as well as west on 121 into some of the mid-cities, there is definitely a market for the high-end retail stores you'll find at Northpark mall, Stonebriar, Willow Bend, etc, and it is all very impressive for a "new city" like Dallas, esp when compared to the likes of New York or Chicago.

That said, while the booming telecom, banking, and tech industries in Dallas are successful at attracting not only foreign traffic, but also foreign immigrants, the caliber is different in than Houston (and not saying one is better than the other) but simply, just different. Within the city proper, there really isn't much "ethnic diversity" that reveals itself to be dressy and American. North Dallas is predominantly anglo-saxon, as are the "up and coming" residential areas near downtown and uptown. But there is definitely is a "diaspora" of the rest of the multi-cultural groups in Dallas which is pretty fascinating: West and South Dallas remain very diverse, and so are a few random suburbs such as Irving, DeSoto, Lancaster, Duncanville, Richardson and Garland. Those areas are what, at least I think, stand for the "multicultural" components of Dallas and it makes me glad when I hear that areas in places like Oak Cliff are slowly gentrifying (like the Bishops Arts district).

Lot's of good potential for Dallas.
confidence is silent. insecurities are loud.
 
AADC10
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RE: Texas & Int'l Service

Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:52 pm

I suspect that IAH has more international than DFW because IAH was more important to the CO system that DFW is to AA's network and AA has few Transpacific routes. CO had only three domestic hubs, IAH, EWR and CLE. AA has DFW, JFK, MIA, ORD and LAX. With AA most of the European routes went out of JFK and ORD. Most of the Latin American routes went out of MIA. DFW performed a function for AA closer to that of UA's DEN, a domestic mid-continent hub that has limited international routes. At CO, most of the Latin America routes had to go out of IAH. At AA, MIA is in a better geographical position.

All of the stuff about the economies of the two cities is secondary.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: Texas & Int'l Service

Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:54 pm

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 9):
DFW performed a function for AA closer to that of UA's DEN, a domestic mid-continent hub that has limited international routes

Thats a big stretch. DFW has way more international access than DEN and it always has.
It is what it is...
 
AviRaider
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RE: Texas & Int'l Service

Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:08 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 6):
I agree, but disagree at the same time.

Houston is the more international city hands down, but I also feel that Houston is more Texan than Dallas is. As someone who does a lot of work down in Houston Im always amazed at the fact that most people who work for the oil companies in the high rises down there still show up in boots and jeans to work. In Dallas, that would never fly. Houston tends to thumb its nose at Dallas because they think were too dressy. Dallas tends to do the reverse to Houston for dressing like slobs. Houston also has a rodeo while Dallas has none.

In short, I think Houston is more Texan and more international. Dallas (excluding Fort Worth of course) on the other hand is more American.

As a native Texan I agree mostly in that Dallas is more trendy and cosmopolitan than Houston. Houston blends more blue collar with white collar. Fort Worth also known as "Cow Town" takes most of the blue collar look and feel from Dallas.

With the large telecom prescence, large aerospace/defense manufacturing, banking, natural gas, Dallas-Fort Worth definately feels more white-collar than Houston.

[Edited 2012-01-30 14:10:21]
 
mogandoCI
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RE: Texas & Int'l Service

Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:22 pm

When UA/CO's IAH-AKL comes online, UA/CO itself would serve all 6 populated continents from IAH alone ... something that's absolutely unmatched by DFW. (Then the debate becomes whether Oceania is a continent, or just Australia)
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: Texas & Int'l Service

Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:25 pm

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 12):
When UA/CO's IAH-AKL comes online, UA/CO itself would serve all 6 populated continents from IAH alone ... something that's absolutely unmatched by DFW.

Yes, serving just 5 continents is such a disgrace.
It is what it is...
 
mogandoCI
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RE: Texas & Int'l Service

Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:33 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 13):
Yes, serving just 5 continents is such a disgrace.

I said "itself".... AA only serves 4 continents on their own metal
 
thomasphoto60
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RE: Texas & Int'l Service

Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:36 am

Quoting AviRaider (Reply 11):
As a native Texan I agree mostly in that Dallas is more trendy and cosmopolitan than Houston

As a non-native Texan, there is nothing about Dallas or Houston that even remotely feels "cosmopolitan". I have lived in real and traveled to so called cosmopolitan cities such as NYC, London, ect,... Dallas and Houston don''t even make blip on the radar.

Don't get me wrong, I love my adopted state of Texas and will probably spend the rest of my life here but it takes more than a few museums, symphony orchestras, light rail systems and smallish immigrants communities to call a city "cosmopolitan".

Frankly, San Antonio and Austin feel more cosmopolitan to me.

[Edited 2012-01-30 16:39:22]
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IrishAyes
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RE: Texas & Int'l Service

Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:56 am

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 9):
I suspect that IAH has more international than DFW because IAH was more important to the CO system that DFW is to AA's network and AA has few Transpacific routes.

Oy. Bloated logic man. International flights are just one tiny measure out of MANY factors that define the importance of a hub to the airline. The fact that DFW doesn't have as many as IAH does not mean it is less glamorous in any way.

DFW is AA's bread-and-butter. The airport essentially IS the "port" for the cities of Dallas and Ft. Worth. There are THOUSANDS of people locally employed by AA. There are well over 800 daily domestic and international flights served nonstop daily on AA from DFW, and for a hub operation, that's probably one of the largest and busiest operative figures you will ever come across if you were to cross-compare it to any other global hub and any other global airline. Not to mention, it is one of the most efficient airports in the world, from an operations and cost perspective.

Other than ORD maybe, it is CRITICAL as a mid-point, North American connecting hub for managing East-West, North-South cross travel flows. Given these impressive facts alone, add to the mixture that AA controls over 80% of the market share at this airport, with a following that includes thousands of loyal North Texan fliers that generate TONS of premium revenue for AA.

AA and DFW go hand in hand. If you truly believe it is comparable to UA and DEN, I don't know where your head has been buried other than in a sandbox for the past 30+ years.

You could even flip your argument and say that AA's small domestic network out of MIA means that it is "less important to the AA system" when really, it carries huge value in terms of int'l presence and we know that statement is false. Whether it is domestic-driven traffic or international that creates the makeup of a hub, the real measure is how much money it brings to the airline. Nobody can debate that DFW, IAH and MIA, etc all make money for their respective legacy hubs.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 12):
When UA/CO's IAH-AKL comes online, UA/CO itself would serve all 6 populated continents from IAH alone ... something that's absolutely unmatched by DFW. (Then the debate becomes whether Oceania is a continent, or just Australia)

I'm going to argue that New Zealand doesn't count as it is part of Oceania. And that there is some non-permanent population on Antarctica. Therefore it's still neck and neck. So UA/CO needs to fly to Australia from IAH and also start a nonstop flight from Houston to the South pole in order to validate your absolutely stupid and baseless pontification.
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aznmadsci
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RE: Texas & Int'l Service

Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:04 am

I leave for the Philippines for a few weeks and I love reading these anti-IAH, anti-DFW, anti-AA, and anti-CO/UA threads! I will say I got to enjoy the fact that I finally got to enjoy SQ's flight from IAH and that is one great way to Asia! Let's hope F and J loads pick up to bring the flight back to daily!
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AviRaider
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RE: Texas & Int'l Service

Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:28 pm

Quoting thomasphoto60 (Reply 15):
As a non-native Texan, there is nothing about Dallas or Houston that even remotely feels "cosmopolitan". I have lived in real and traveled to so called cosmopolitan cities such as NYC, London, ect,... Dallas and Houston don''t even make blip on the radar.

Don't get me wrong, I love my adopted state of Texas and will probably spend the rest of my life here but it takes more than a few museums, symphony orchestras, light rail systems and smallish immigrants communities to call a city "cosmopolitan".

Frankly, San Antonio and Austin feel more cosmopolitan to me.

Well I've been to those places too and yes they aren't on the same radar as far as cosmopolitan is concerned but I'm comparing just Dallas and Houston. And, Dallas to me feels more cosmopolitan however Houston has the larger immigrant diversity.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: Texas & Int'l Service

Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:57 pm

Quoting thomasphoto60 (Reply 15):
As a non-native Texan, there is nothing about Dallas or Houston that even remotely feels "cosmopolitan". I have lived in real and traveled to so called cosmopolitan cities such as NYC, London, ect,... Dallas and Houston don''t even make blip on the radar.

I would say Dallas and Houston both have elements of being world class, but neither are completely world class. In Houston, the culture I would consider world class and in Dallas the shopping I would as well. In both, the dining is exceptional.
It is what it is...
 
jasoncrh
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RE: Texas & Int'l Service

Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:01 pm

I would definitely say the dining is exceptional in Houston. I think it overall pales by comparison in Dallas. Too many chain restaurants that arent great. Houston is excellent, though.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 19):
I would say Dallas and Houston both have elements of being world class, but neither are completely world class. In Houston, the culture I would consider world class and in Dallas the shopping I would as well. In both, the dining is exceptional.
 
mogandoCI
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RE: Texas & Int'l Service

Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:03 pm

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 16):
I'm going to argue that New Zealand doesn't count as it is part of Oceania. And that there is some non-permanent population on Antarctica. Therefore it's still neck and neck. So UA/CO needs to fly to Australia from IAH and also start a nonstop flight from Houston to the South pole in order to validate your absolutely stupid and baseless pontification.

That's the *smartest* argument I've read on the entire forum on any thread .... Antartica is now counted as a populated continent ??

Go to wikipedia : NZ is part of Oceania.

ps : it's not neck-and-neck, because even if you exclude NZ, AA only flies to 4 continents.

[Edited 2012-01-31 07:06:32]
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: Texas & Int'l Service

Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:19 pm

Quoting JasonCRH (Reply 20):
I think it overall pales by comparison in Dallas. Too many chain restaurants that arent great. Houston is excellent, though.

On the surface it might seem like Dallas is chain oriented, but it isnt. Ive lived here for three years and I refuse to eat at chains. I still think the dining here is great. I will say that Houston edges out Dallas in dining, but Dallas doesnt pale in comparrison.

The primary difference is that things are closer together in Houston. In Dallas and DFW everything is spread out. But 90% of the ammenities in both are the same.

[Edited 2012-01-31 07:22:19]
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AA777223
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RE: Texas & Int'l Service

Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:30 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 6):

Houston is the more international city hands down, but I also feel that Houston is more Texan than Dallas is. As someone who does a lot of work down in Houston Im always amazed at the fact that most people who work for the oil companies in the high rises down there still show up in boots and jeans to work. In Dallas, that would never fly. Houston tends to thumb its nose at Dallas because they think were too dressy. Dallas tends to do the reverse to Houston for dressing like slobs. Houston also has a rodeo while Dallas has none.

Couldn't agree more. As someone who grew up in (and loves) Dallas, and now lives in (and loves) Houston, I agreed with all the really great summaries here, with the exception of the difference you caught here.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 8):
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 6):
Quoting commavia (Reply 5):
Quoting shanderawx (Reply 2):

All really good summaries.

Quoting thomasphoto60 (Reply 15):

Frankly, San Antonio and Austin feel more cosmopolitan to me.

Austin is great and all, and I have traveled extensively to major cities all over the globe. Houston and Dallas aren't as cosmopolitan as London, NYC, Paris or Tokyo but comparing the two Dallas is more cosmo (though don't tell that to Houston folks...they do NOT like it). In my experience Houston people have much more disdain for Dallas than the other way around. Most Dallas people I know don't ever even really think about Houston or care about it or what the people there think, whereas I have received quite a many raised eyebrows when I tell people that I am from Dallas. People here are very quick to tell you how much they hate it.

Austin is great for it's local flair, and San Antonio is a disgrace. For such a hugely populated city, it's a terrible place. Dirty, poor and very little "downtown" or commercial centers at all. That is the one thing most Texans from Dallas, Houston, Austin even El Paso, Abilene or Corpus can agree on. San Antonio sucks...especially the Spurs  

Overall, as a dutiful employee of the much maligned Houston "energy industry" (drilling, no less  Wow! ), our economic sector drives major international growth.
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IrishAyes
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RE: Texas & Int'l Service

Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:40 pm

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 21):
That's the *smartest* argument I've read on the entire forum on any thread .... Antartica is now counted as a populated continent ??

Go to wikipedia : NZ is part of Oceania.

ps : it's not neck-and-neck, because even if you exclude NZ, AA only flies to 4 continents.

Go to wikipedia: sarcasm is a word.

This was a futile discussion to begin with.

Quoting JasonCRH (Reply 20):
Too many chain restaurants that arent great. Houston is excellent, though.

Wha?? People rank the dining opportunities in Dallas to be among the top in the country. Sure, along the highways you'll find more chains, but within the city, you have some pretty unparalleled experiences! Food Network frequently features the culinary offerings in Dallas.

Ever heard of Dean Fearing, and the Mansion on Turtle Creek? Some of the higher-end steak chains (though now expanded across the world) originally had presence just in Dallas before massive expansion (III Forks, Fogo de Chao, Texas de Brasil) etc.

You also have a few "chains" within Dallas, but those are unique to the city. Like, Gloria's, Sonny Bryan's BBQ, El Fenix, Campisi, Monica's Aca y Alla, etc.
confidence is silent. insecurities are loud.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: Texas & Int'l Service

Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:51 pm

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 23):
In my experience Houston people have much more disdain for Dallas than the other way around. Most Dallas people I know don't ever even really think about Houston or care about it or what the people there think, whereas I have received quite a many raised eyebrows when I tell people that I am from Dallas. People here are very quick to tell you how much they hate it.

That is definately true.

I go on appointments in Houston all the time and every time I go down, I have to get reminded by all my clients that they hate Dallas and they are happy to give you a list of the reasons why they hate Dallas (Ive heard everything from "shallow people" to "the Vietnamese community is low class"). It drives me nuts. There seems to be some sort of obsession with a lot of people down there.

Houston has an inferiority complex and they really shouldnt. Both cities are great and stand out on their own.
It is what it is...
 
mogandoCI
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RE: Texas & Int'l Service

Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:56 pm

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 24):
This was a futile discussion to begin with.
Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 24):
Ever heard of Dean Fearing, and the Mansion on Turtle Creek? Some of the higher-end steak chains (though now expanded across the world) originally had presence just in Dallas before massive expansion (III Forks, Fogo de Chao, Texas de Brasil) etc.

You also have a few "chains" within Dallas, but those are unique to the city. Like, Gloria's, Sonny Bryan's BBQ, El Fenix, Campisi, Monica's Aca y Alla, etc.

The more futile discussion is how the presence of a few restaurants in Dallas has anything to do with its international service availability (or the lack of).

Even SLC, one of the most un-cosmo medium-sized cities, gets occasional seasonal service out to NRT while KIX, one of the most cosmo cities, gets bareful a handful. "Cosmo-ness" is only weakly correlated with flight availability.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 24):
Go to wikipedia: sarcasm is a word.

Don't quit your day job. No one is laughing.

[Edited 2012-01-31 07:59:15]
 
jasoncrh
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RE: Texas & Int'l Service

Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:09 pm

It comes down to individual preference. I lived in Dallas for a few years and with few exceptions was not impressed. I've eaten at the new Fearing's at the Ritz and didnt think it was that great on the couple of times I went there. There are definitely some good places, but in general they tend to be pricey. I've eaten at all the places you mentioned and frankly they were just fine, none that great. Most tend to be more about the show and the setting rather than the food (although there definitely are exceptions). I like Parigi, which is a small intimate place on Oak Lawn - my favorite restaurant. And Abacus is great too. For easy going options I like Neighborhood Services and Fireside Pies. For Tex - Mex, Mia's.
Overall, I like the variety in style, genre, and prices in Houston much more than in Dallas. To each their own.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 24):
Wha?? People rank the dining opportunities in Dallas to be among the top in the country. Sure, along the highways you'll find more chains, but within the city, you have some pretty unparalleled experiences! Food Network frequently features the culinary offerings in Dallas.

Ever heard of Dean Fearing, and the Mansion on Turtle Creek? Some of the higher-end steak chains (though now expanded across the world) originally had presence just in Dallas before massive expansion (III Forks, Fogo de Chao, Texas de Brasil) etc.

You also have a few "chains" within Dallas, but those are unique to the city. Like, Gloria's, Sonny Bryan's BBQ, El Fenix, Campisi, Monica's Aca y Alla, etc.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: Texas & Int'l Service

Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:10 pm

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 26):
Even SLC, one of the most un-cosmo medium-sized cities, gets occasional seasonal service out to NRT while KIX, one of the most cosmo cities, gets bareful a handful. "Cosmo-ness" is only weakly correlated with flight availability.

SLC-NRT was cancelled.

Either way, no need to bash Salt Lake City. It may not be the most cosmopolitan but its actually a really cool city.
It is what it is...
 
thomasphoto60
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RE: Texas & Int'l Service

Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:15 pm

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 26):
The more futile discussion is how the presence of a few restaurants in Dallas has anything to do with its international service availability (or the lack of).

DUH............It's amazing how these threads get sidetracked so easily.
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AA777223
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RE: Texas & Int'l Service

Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:23 pm

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 24):

Wha?? People rank the dining opportunities in Dallas to be among the top in the country. Sure, along the highways you'll find more chains, but within the city, you have some pretty unparalleled experiences! Food Network frequently features the culinary offerings in Dallas.

Ever heard of Dean Fearing, and the Mansion on Turtle Creek? Some of the higher-end steak chains (though now expanded across the world) originally had presence just in Dallas before massive expansion (III Forks, Fogo de Chao, Texas de Brasil) etc.
Quoting JasonCRH (Reply 27):
It comes down to individual preference. I lived in Dallas for a few years and with few exceptions was not impressed. I've eaten at the new Fearing's at the Ritz and didnt think it was that great on the couple of times I went there. There are definitely some good places, but in general they tend to be pricey. I've eaten at all the places you mentioned and frankly they were just fine, none that great. Most tend to be more about the show and the setting rather than the food (although there definitely are exceptions). I like Parigi, which is a small intimate place on Oak Lawn - my favorite restaurant. And Abacus is great too. For easy going options I like Neighborhood Services and Fireside Pies. For Tex - Mex, Mia's.

It has been attributed that Houston that is has one of the highest number of restaurants in the world. It has been attributed to Dallas that it has one of the highest numbers of restaurants PER CAPITA in the world. Considering the size of both cities, I think this confirms that they both have a pretty impressive array of dining options.

While I agree this is a sidetrack from the discussion, since it has gone there, I think it is worth noting.
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RE: Texas & Int'l Service

Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:34 pm

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 23):
Austin is great for it's local flair, and San Antonio is a disgrace. For such a hugely populated city, it's a terrible place. Dirty, poor and very little "downtown" or commercial centers at all. That is the one thing most Texans from Dallas, Houston, Austin even El Paso, Abilene or Corpus can agree on. San Antonio sucks...especially the Spurs  

I disagree. Have you been to the Riverwalk? It's a really nice place to visit. It may be a low-yielding market, but there are plenty of things to do in San Antonio.
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: Texas & Int'l Service

Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:35 pm

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 26):
The more futile discussion is how the presence of a few restaurants in Dallas has anything to do with its international service availability (or the lack of).

I wasn't the one who brought up restaurants.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 26):
Even SLC, one of the most un-cosmo medium-sized cities, gets occasional seasonal service out to NRT

I think this is the third of fourth thread over the past few weeks in which you've mentioned SLC-NRT and someone has to continually remind you that the flight was cancelled.

I'd visit SLC any day of the week over IAH. I just found out you can ski there in April.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 26):
Don't quit your day job. No one is laughing.

Actually, I shared a quite few laughs with some buds offline from this back-and-forth banter. Particularly in light of how you brought up a worthless argument with regards to the "number of continents." Considering UA/CO fly to A SINGLE destination in each continent (Asia, OZ and Africa) and a hardly handful in Europe (which is the same number as with DFW) from IAH, the reaction was pretty consistent, "what is he talking about??"

Quoting JasonCRH (Reply 27):
Overall, I like the variety in style, genre, and prices in Houston much more than in Dallas. To each their own.

Very true.
confidence is silent. insecurities are loud.
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: Texas & Int'l Service

Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:38 pm

Quoting mah584jr (Reply 31):
I disagree. Have you been to the Riverwalk? It's a really nice place to visit.

Uh.....has it gotten better over the years? Last time I visited, it was quite the dump!

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 30):
While I agree this is a sidetrack from the discussion, since it has gone there, I think it is worth noting.

It is fine, and refreshing, and least of all, has more substance to it than attempting to claim how the "number of continents" linked to a single hub airport defines its level of glamor and prestige.
confidence is silent. insecurities are loud.
 
mogandoCI
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RE: Texas & Int'l Service

Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:54 pm

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 32):
Actually, I shared a quite few laughs with some buds offline from this back-and-forth banter. Particularly in light of how you brought up a worthless argument with regards to the "number of continents." Considering UA/CO fly to A SINGLE destination in each continent (Asia, OZ and Africa) and a hardly handful in Europe (which is the same number as with DFW) from IAH, the reaction was pretty consistent, "what is he talking about??"

The bigger laugh is DL and UA shareholders and customers laughing at AA for serving only 3 cities in all of Asia, and not serving Russia/CIS, Middle East, India, Oceania or Africa... from *any* hub.
 
SATexan
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RE: Texas & Int'l Service

Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:07 pm

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 23):
Austin is great for it's local flair, and San Antonio is a disgrace. For such a hugely populated city, it's a terrible place. Dirty, poor and very little "downtown" or commercial centers at all.
Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 33):
Uh.....has it gotten better over the years? Last time I visited, it was quite the dump!

I am SATexan and I totally disapprove these ill informed comments. SA downtown is bigger and better than Dallas downtown in every single aspect, be it Entertainment, museums, theater, pubs, restaurants, convention centers or hotels. You can actually take your family and kids for an outing at night in SA. Unlike Dallas where you have to duck the cross fire in Deep Ellum, survive the thugs on Lamar St. only to be greeted by prostitutes at the West End on your way to the JFK memorial - the most important monument in the Dallas area.

That being said...

Quoting JasonCRH (Reply 20):
I would definitely say the dining is exceptional in Houston. I think it overall pales by comparison in Dallas. Too many chain restaurants that arent great. Houston is excellent, though.

Simply not true.. IMHO Dallas is way better. Ever been to Addison?

Quoting thomasphoto60 (Reply 29):
DUH............It's amazing how these threads get sidetracked so easily.

   Going back to original topic, I feel that between DFW and IAH, Texas is very well covered globally. DFW needs a couple more flights to Asia (HKG and PVG/PEK come to mind) and at most one more route to Europe and it will be complete. There are really not many markets left outside of Mexico and Central America for a serious consideration from DFW.

Likewise, IAH is also very well covered. Being CO/UA's 'go to' gateway for Mexico/Central and South America, it naturally sees more flights to the region. Save for a flight to Europe (most like MUC) and may be a route to Asia (PEK or PVG) there is not much left to be covered out of IAH. In fact, IAH market is more saturated than DFW. I know that some folks are expecting UA to start IAH-SCL/LPB/JNB/Secondary markets in Brazil. I simply do not see any of them happening, save for IAH-SCL.

[Edited 2012-01-31 10:09:59]
 
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RE: Texas & Int'l Service

Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:54 pm

Quoting SATexan (Reply 35):
I am SATexan and I totally disapprove these ill informed comments. SA downtown is bigger and better than Dallas downtown in every single aspect, be it Entertainment, museums, theater, pubs, restaurants, convention centers or hotels. You can actually take your family and kids for an outing at night in SA. Unlike Dallas where you have to duck the cross fire in Deep Ellum, survive the thugs on Lamar St. only to be greeted by prostitutes at the West End on your way to the JFK memorial - the most important monument in the Dallas area.

Im with you on this one. Downtown Dallas is quite seedy and downtown San Antonio is way better. But the best stuff to do in Dallas isnt downtown.
It is what it is...
 
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AA777223
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RE: Texas & Int'l Service

Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:02 pm

Quoting SATexan (Reply 35):

I'm sorry I offended. I have to say though, a quick glance at a few skyline pics will show you exactly how underdeveloped the downtown of San Antonio is, as compared to the other two cities in this discussion. I'm just trying to show the evidence and let the verdict be made by each on their own. To me, its pretty clear

San Antonio:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Downtown-san-antonio.jpeg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Downtown_San_Antonio_View.JPG

vs.

Dallas:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Do..._Belmont_Hotel_in_Oak_Cliff,_2.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Do..._Dallas_from_the_Trinity_River.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Xvisionx_Dallas_Stemmons.jpg

Houston:
http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl...1&ved=1t:429,r:6,s:30&tx=144&ty=21
http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl...3&ei=tzgoT8bHGura0QHXmcyyAg&zoom=1
http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl...1&ved=1t:429,r:16,s:53&tx=46&ty=89
http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl...0&ei=tzgoT8bHGura0QHXmcyyAg&zoom=1

complimented by other large districts in Uptown (Galleria):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Uptown_Houston.jpg

and the Medical Center (Practicall small cities within themselves):
http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl...0&ei=zTkoT4OOHqnZ0QHzyqWjAg&zoom=1
http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl...30&ved=1t:429,r:16,s:0&tx=34&ty=27
http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl...2&ei=zTkoT4OOHqnZ0QHzyqWjAg&zoom=1

Since this is about Dallas vs. Houston as international cities, I think this is pertinent to the discussion, especially for the uninitiated among us. The San Antonio discussion is purely for comparison purposes in response to previous comments. It is worth noting that while many think Texas is all cattle, spurs and boots, three of the ten largest cities in the US are here, as shown in the photos.
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mah584jr
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RE: Texas & Int'l Service

Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:20 pm

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 37):
I'm sorry I offended. I have to say though, a quick glance at a few skyline pics will show you exactly how underdeveloped the downtown of San Antonio is, as compared to the other two cities in this discussion. I'm just trying to show the evidence and let the verdict be made by each on their own. To me, its pretty clear

You have the right to your opinion. I think it's pointless to argue over cities because everyone has their preferences; however, I would only invite you to check out the Riverwalk and the Downtown area on your next visit.

Also, as far as airports are concerned, SAT just opened a new terminal a little over a year ago and is lengthening one of their runways. In addition, AirTran announced new international service to MEX and CUN starting in June. The new terminal is very nice in my opinion, very modern.
 
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RE: Texas & Int'l Service

Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:45 pm

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 1):
When 2 destinations are so close to each other, with the multitude of other options in the US to connect through, sometimes it looks like some markets should be happy with what they already have and work with that

You do realize that DFW and IAH are about the same distance apart as CDG and LHR or AMS and FRA ?

And almost 50% farther apart than LHR and MAN.

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=kdfw-ki...c%0D%0A&MS=wls&DU=nm&SG=454&SU=kts

But as mentioned above, the focus of the energy business and port in Houston, plus a bit of geography, favor Houston for many international destinations.

Though I do have to admit - there is not much of a population between the two cities. The past 20 years have seen a lot of long drives up and down I-45.
 
flashmeister
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RE: Texas & Int'l Service

Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:44 pm

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 37):
It is worth noting that while many think Texas is all cattle, spurs and boots, three of the ten largest cities in the US are here, as shown in the photos.

This factoid keeps being thrown around -- about San Antonio being a top ten city -- and it's just a worthless statistic and completely out of context.

Is San Antonio in the top ten cities by population in the United States? Technically yes. It's #7, with a population of 1.3 million. By the same measure, Dallas is #9, Boston is #23, and Atlanta is #40. Yet no one really _believes_ that San Antonio is bigger than Dallas. SA is where it is on the list because there are very few suburbs in Bexar County and surrounds, far fewer than you'd get in other metropolitan areas. It's all within the City instead.

Using a better metric of Metropolitan Statistical Areas, Dallas/Ft. Worth is #4 (6.3 million people), and Houston is #6 (5.9 million people). San Antonio is #25 (2.1 million people). I think that's a better indicator of the relative importance of SA within Texas.

For full disclaimer: I lived in San Antonio for 2 years. I frankly hated it, sorry to say.
 
thomasphoto60
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RE: Texas & Int'l Service

Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:56 pm

Quoting flashmeister (Reply 40):
Using a better metric of Metropolitan Statistical Areas, Dallas/Ft. Worth is #4 (6.3 million people), and Houston is #6 (5.9 million people). San Antonio is #25 (2.1 million people). I think that's a better indicator of the relative importance of SA within Texas.

I was wondering how long it would take for someone to start quoting MSA numbers. Frankly I am shocked it took this long, usually someone throws these figures out in the first 4-5 posts.
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mogandoCI
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RE: Texas & Int'l Service

Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:25 pm

Quoting flashmeister (Reply 40):
Using a better metric of Metropolitan Statistical Areas, Dallas/Ft. Worth is #4 (6.3 million people), and Houston is #6 (5.9 million people). San Antonio is #25 (2.1 million people). I think that's a better indicator of the relative importance of SA within Texas.

Using Primary census statistical areas is slightly better because it includes multiple contiguous MSAs that most people would think it's one metro (e.g. lumps SFO and SJC together) :

#7 DFW 6.73M
#9 HOU 6.05M

#27 SAT 2.14M
#32 AUS 1.76M
 
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AA777223
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RE: Texas & Int'l Service

Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:29 pm

Quoting flashmeister (Reply 40):

Hey, you don't have to convince me. Did you not see the two posts where I explained the differences between SA and the other two major cities in Texas? I think I made my distaste for it quite evident, as well.
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RE: Texas & Int'l Service

Wed Feb 01, 2012 5:11 am

Should this thread stay in Civil Av or moved to the Non-Aviation Board?
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