ferpe
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Airbus Challenges The 787-10X With A330-300S

Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:51 am

NEW A330-300S
(S for planned improved version with sharklets and more, my addition  )

http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-...les-performances-de-son-a330-.html

According to the French business magazine La Tribune the Airbus enhancements plans for the 330 is only focusing on the A330-300, not the -200! It seems the planning is now more concrete, A has actively confirmed to the magazine that they want to add 400nm to the range by increasing MTOW to 240t + adding sharklets for the A330-300 only. They will also invest to try and keep the OEW to todays values by changing the portions of the airframe which were common between A340 and A330 to 330 parts only now that the 340 is out of the price-list. In this process they can save weight to compensate for the reinforcements to add the sharklets and increase the MTOW.


A330-300S FOR KILLING THE 787-10X
The article think the 300S is to replace the A340-300 and to compensate for delays to the 350-900 and -800. I don't think this is the primary aim, after the successful forcing of Boeing's hand with the A320neo this is the next brainchild of JL and now he wants to stop the 787-10X before its birth, he does not want the Airliners to catch on to the variant. A 6100nm A333 with an MSP of 51t will come pretty close to a projected 787-10X with a projected MSP of 54t (my estimate) and a spec range of 6850nm (B figure).

According to my back of the envelope sheet the 787-10X would burn 5.6t/hour and the 300S would reduce the 333 fuel burn of 6t/hr a bit by virtue of the new sharklets and perhaps another PIP from RR (don't be surprised to see RR announce this in the next months IMO    ). This is why they go to the bother of keeping the OEW at today's value, every kg the 300S has on the 10X will count in the argumentation.

If one compares the 787-10X with the 300S one can clearly seeing the killing pitch:

- available and you get what you see (for sure)

- lighter and therefore very competitive on the frequent midrange hops (under 10 hours)

- commonality with today's frame and therefore plenty of competition for the MX

- pilot and fleet commonality with today's range of Airbuses, not the least the 330


.....................................330-300S...........................787-10X
MTOW..............................340t...................................351t
OEW................................125t...................................131t
MSP...................................51t.....................................54t
Range nm@maxPax..........6100..................................6850



NOT FOCUSING LAUNCHED PROGRAMS
By not improving the A320-200 A is basically saying they don't go after frames which are launched (789) or in production with this move (788), it is all about influencing Bs 787-10X / 777-8/9 launch planning.

[Edited 2012-01-30 03:09:01]
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Ronaldo747
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RE: Airbus Challenges The 787-10X With A330-300S

Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:04 am

Well .... this is a confession of failure to the A350 XWB program and the big fear/panic of losing the A340.300 customers to the 787-10X.
 
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RE: Airbus Challenges The 787-10X With A330-300S

Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:09 am

Quoting Ronaldo747 (Reply 1):
this is a confession of failure to the A350 XWB program

- Given the current orders for the A350 I don't agree, however it is an interesting move by Airbus.
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RE: Airbus Challenges The 787-10X With A330-300S

Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:17 am

So are we saying that a warmed over Airbus design can effectively kill a new clean sheet Boeing a/c but a warmed over Boeing a/c - 7778x / 9x has no chance against a clean sheet Airbus a/c - A350 -, unless I'm missing something, what exactly is the difference in principle between the two a/c other than the OEM?
 
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RE: Airbus Challenges The 787-10X With A330-300S

Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:25 am

This is fun stuff. I think the days of being afraid of the plastic planes are over. The best of the current models are likely to be upgraded as far as possible...and there is definitely something to be said for the devil you know.

Sharklets, Al-li, engine PIP's, getting the 340 weight out...together can keep an already good plane competitive against future models.
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RE: Airbus Challenges The 787-10X With A330-300S

Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:52 am

Quoting Ronaldo747 (Reply 1):
the big fear/panic of losing the A340.300 customers to the 787-10X.

One wonders how many A340s out there are yet to be replaced. They only built a little over a couple of hundred of them and many have already been 'replaced' on paper.

Looks like a rather smart move by Airbus, I'd say. Methinks we'll see the A333 flying and in production for a l-o-n-g time to come.   
 
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RE: Airbus Challenges The 787-10X With A330-300S

Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:53 am

Quoting par13del (Reply 3):
So are we saying that a warmed over Airbus design can effectively kill a new clean sheet Boeing a/c but a warmed over Boeing a/c - 7778x / 9x has no chance against a clean sheet Airbus a/c - A350 -, unless I'm missing something, what exactly is the difference in principle between the two a/c other than the OEM?



Time is the difference. The A33S is going to be available years before the 787-10 so although it perhaps won’t be able to exactly match the 787’s performance those extra years of cost savings should make up for the short fall. The 77X EIS is estimated anywhere from 2017 to 2019, which doesn’t allow the same advantage, so it is going to have to match or better the A35J’s performance to effectively compete. Something that many of us doubt it will be able to do.

[Edited 2012-01-30 03:54:20]
 
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RE: Airbus Challenges The 787-10X With A330-300S

Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:19 pm

Uhmmm did not Airbus first try to fight the 787 with a "warmed" over A330 with new winglets and engines
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
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RE: Airbus Challenges The 787-10X With A330-300S

Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:20 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 3):
So are we saying that a warmed over Airbus design can effectively kill a new clean sheet Boeing a/c

Why must it always be kill here? It certainly isn't an requirement in the real world.
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ferpe
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RE: Airbus Challenges The 787-10X With A330-300S

Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:41 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 8):
Why must it always be kill here? It certainly isn't an requirement in the real world.
JL has admitted that Airbus did not like the prospect of competing with a new Boeing SA frame around 2020 with the warmed over A320neo. Therefore their strategy was to force B into deciding for the MAX. Expect that the very aggressive deal that AA got was part of bringing B to that decision (and they succeeded    ).

As little as they wanted this to happen they do not want to have a light and optimized 787-10X acting alone in the midrange 300 pax market (if they do nothing for the 333 it will slowly die by then), they can not predict how much of the total 300-320 pax market it will get and thereby undermine the economics of the main part of 350 series.

It is very difficult to predict if the Airlines will stay put with a A350-900 fleet and use them for below and above 10 hours legs or if they will complement with a dedicated sub 10 hour frame like the -10X. Better try and force it not to be launched, thereby the word kill = not launched    .

It is like in matchracing, you just don't leave the other uncovered in any part of the game    .

[Edited 2012-01-30 04:42:19]
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RE: Airbus Challenges The 787-10X With A330-300S

Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:08 pm

The larger size of the 787-10X would still give it the CASM advantage. Also remember that by the time the 787-10X enters service both GE and RR will be better than planned SFC so even with another PiP, I don't see the Trent 700's / CF6-80's SFC being close to the Trent 1000's / GEnx's.

As with the A330-200 updates, this is Airbus being smart and selling what they can, while they can. As a long-term strategy, it will not prevent the 787 from eclipsing the A330.
 
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RE: Airbus Challenges The 787-10X With A330-300S

Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:27 pm

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 6):
The 77X EIS is estimated anywhere from 2017 to 2019, which doesn%u2019t allow the same advantage, so it is going to have to match or better the A35J%u2019s performance to effectively compete. Something that many of us doubt it will be able to do.

You may doubt it, but many others don't. How long do you think Airbus will take to bring this A-33S to EIS? They do have an awful lot on their engineering plate right now. It is taking Airbus 5 years just to bring in the A-320NEO, and the A-358 and A-3510 have been pushed back. Yhen there is still the engineers tied up with the A-380 and A-400 programs. Removing the common A-340 parts from the wing may not save much weight at all. It essentially saves the weight of a hard-point on the wing, that is about it. The A-333IGW is already a 240 tonne airplane, so that is, most likely, their starting point. It already has the RR Trent-772C-60 engines, GE CF-6-80E1/E2, or P&W PW-4170 engines. I just don't see any of the engine OEMs putting much more money into any of these engines, they all have better engines to offer.

RR has the B-787 engines developed and certified to the Trent-1000Z, with some 77,800 lbs of thrust, but these engines cannot be used on a new A-33S because they are not bleed air engines. Perhaps a clipped fan version of the Trent-977 is possible, or an upgraded, but clipped fan version of the GEnx-2B67 engine?

The B-7810 is aimed at the A-333 and B-772/E replacement market. The B-77X is aimed at the A-359 market. So this new A-33S will not compete with the B-77X, and Boeing has not fully defined or frozen the B-7810, yet. So the A-33S is aimed at a moving target.

Quoting columba (Reply 7):
Uhmmm did not Airbus first try to fight the 787 with a "warmed" over A330 with new winglets and engines

Yeap.
 
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RE: Airbus Challenges The 787-10X With A330-300S

Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:46 pm

I think there is mileage in a low cost / low risk / early EIS upgrade like this. To protect short term revenue and to challenge Boeing in terms of competitor capability and of blocking (later) 7810 sales opportunities.

Although starting with the A333 there is no reason not to extend the changes to the A332 later if they sell well.

A333F anyone?

Article in English:

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...ng-report/articleshow/11685137.cms

[Edited 2012-01-30 06:48:01]
 
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RE: Airbus Challenges The 787-10X With A330-300S

Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:52 pm

Quoting Ronaldo747 (Reply 1):
Well .... this is a confession of failure to the A350 XWB program and the big fear/panic of losing the A340.300 customers to the 787-10X.

I don't think this is the case at all, for a number of reasons.

- The A350XWB is equivalent in seat count to the 777, kill the A330 and there is nothing to compete effectively with the 787. Sure the A358 will try, but it's too much aircraft for a lot of routes, particularly those 5-8 hour routes.
- Without some A330 sized aircraft there is a huge jump from the A321(±NEO) to the A358.
- The 333 is currently the aircraft to beat across the atlantic, for missions within it's range. Even the 787 does not have a clear advantage, certainly from Ireland/UK/France/Bennelux to the East Coast of the US, even the mid-west, florida and of course Canada. Obviously the 333 has significantly more volume to play with than the 788 and a smudge more than the -9.

There has long been speculation on this board that what was effectively the A350 Mk1 was still something Airbus could bring to market and I have certainly felt that there is a gap in the market for it. I think the 787 will be great across the pacific, but will see limited use over the Atlantic. I think an aircraft like this makes sense for carriers who already have large A330 fleets, particularly earlier, less capable -300s. Many of the big orders are still to be gained, LH, IAG and AF/KL, not to mention AA and UA 767 replacements are all to play for, I think an A333-S could certainly be competitive with the 787.
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RE: Airbus Challenges The 787-10X With A330-300S

Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:05 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 11):
How long do you think Airbus will take to bring this A-33S to EIS?

According to La Tribune Airbus says it will be available in 3-4 years.

IMO it can be introduced rather gradually, almost running improvements. Weight reductions are always welcome and the replacement of 340 parts can happen gradually, the biggest effort is the sharklets but there they now have the 320 experience and design to fall back on.
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RE: Airbus Challenges The 787-10X With A330-300S

Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:07 pm

Quoting ferpe (Thread starter):
this is the next brainchild of JL and now he wants to stop the 787-10X before its birth, he does not want the Airliners to catch on to the variant.

If an airline already has a 788/789 fleet, It would be very difficult to see them order A330s not matter how good they may be.
 
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RE: Airbus Challenges The 787-10X With A330-300S

Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:29 pm

A333 production line can pump out 10 frames per month. How many 787-10 can Boeing produce while the -8 and -9 are selling like hot cakes? As long as Airbus can get close to the -10 performance, it will be very interesting. The A33S will sell very well and delay the migration to -10 much longer.

Can this be the signal to the end of the A358?
 
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RE: Airbus Challenges The 787-10X With A330-300S

Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:42 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 8):
Why must it always be kill here? It certainly isn't an requirement in the real world.

In this case, I certainly don't think "kill" is a requirement for this new A330 variant. My take is that an attrition strategy is sufficient here - even if you don't kill the 787-10 outright, you can (if successful) siphon off enough orders that it makes the plane unprofitable for Boeing. So, Airbus can "win" if Boeing either a) decides to kill (or perhaps mothball, a la the above speculation about the ur-A350 version) the 787-10 altogether; or b) they still go forward with the 787-10, but it ends up being a boondoggle for them. I'm not saying Airbus has this in the bag, but it seems like a valid strategy, if the proposed modifications (how extensive will these new dedicated A330 parts mods be?) are simple and cost-effective enough for a quick EIS.
 
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RE: Airbus Challenges The 787-10X With A330-300S

Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:51 pm

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 17):
So, Airbus can "win" if Boeing either a) decides to kill (or perhaps mothball, a la the above speculation about the ur-A350 version) the 787-10 altogether; or b) they still go forward with the 787-10, but it ends up being a boondoggle for them.

I don't even see that as necessary. This is simply Airbus seeing that it will have nothing to compete with the 787-10 (or, for that matter, with the 787-9 on shorter missions). It won't be capable of "killing" any 787 variant, because the 787 products will still be superior. But it will compete much better than today's A333, and it's likely to prevent existing A330 operators from defecting to Boeing.

It may also be of interest to one or more of the remaining A350-800 customers, particularly those (like US and QR) who seem unlikely to use the aircraft on extremely long missions.
 
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RE: Airbus Challenges The 787-10X With A330-300S

Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:55 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 18):
and it's likely to prevent existing A330 operators from defecting to Boeing.

I think this is an underrated factor in these situations - as you say, stealing orders may not even be necessary.
 
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RE: Airbus Challenges The 787-10X With A330-300S

Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:00 pm

Quoting ferpe (Reply 9):
It is like in matchracing, you just don't leave the other uncovered in any part of the game    .

There is support for saying neo killed NSA but I think pushed forward is more accurate. It is not as Airbus got the segment to themselves, just "easier" competition. Though I am on record that I think the NSA proposed for the 2020 time frame was not enough for Boeing to keep customers waiting and after EIS it would be a question about when Airbus could respond to settle who came out ahead.

I do not understand why Boeing should give up the segment just because Airbus upgrades the A330-300. If Airbus doesn't want to surrender that segment to Boeing then why should Boeing want to surrender it to Airbus?

I expect Boeing to look at this data and possibly tweak the 787-10X a bit again. But in the end we will have two models sharing the segment. How much for each will depend on profile and timing customers require.
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RE: Airbus Challenges The 787-10X With A330-300S

Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:25 pm

Quoting columba (Reply 7):

Uhmmm did not Airbus first try to fight the 787 with a "warmed" over A330 with new winglets and engines

Umm, yes. This effort will have the same outcome.   
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RE: Airbus Challenges The 787-10X With A330-300S

Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:29 pm

Quoting columba (Reply 7):
Uhmmm did not Airbus first try to fight the 787 with a "warmed" over A330 with new winglets and engines

  
Sounds like the A350 Mk 1 reloaded.

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 17):
My take is that an attrition strategy is sufficient here - even if you don't kill the 787-10 outright, you can (if successful) siphon off enough orders that it makes the plane unprofitable for Boeing. So, Airbus can "win" if Boeing either a) decides to kill

It doesn't have to necessarily be a 787-10 killer, it need only breath new life into the A330 to keep it going and turning a profit. A very smart business move by Airbus and I think it will eventually turn into their version of the 767 - long in the tooth (eventually) but still marching on.
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RE: Airbus Challenges The 787-10X With A330-300S

Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:35 pm

Why not put a new engine? Like the A380 engine? Isn't it in the right power range for such a big twin? They can even use the freighter higher nose gear for clearance!  
 
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RE: Airbus Challenges The 787-10X With A330-300S

Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:53 pm

Quoting redflyer (Reply 22):
It doesn't have to necessarily be a 787-10 killer, it need only breath new life into the A330 to keep it going and turning a profit. A very smart business move by Airbus and I think it will eventually turn into their version of the 767 - long in the tooth (eventually) but still marching on.

I agree wholeheartedly - I was merely putting out there that Airbus has multiple "victory conditions" beyond the simple result of killing the Boeing plane. That said, I suspect this will turn into a new version of the 767-400 debate, but time will tell.
 
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RE: Airbus Challenges The 787-10X With A330-300S

Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:23 pm

Quoting ferpe (Thread starter):
The article think the 300S is to replace the A340-300 and to compensate for delays to the 350-900 and -800. I don't think this is the primary aim

The aim is to squeeze some more life and revenue out of a quality but aging airframe with minimal investment.

Quoting Ronaldo747 (Reply 1):
Well .... this is a confession of failure to the A350 XWB program and the big fear/panic of losing the A340.300 customers to the 787-10X.

It isn't anything like that. And Airbus knew fully that using one family to compete with two from Boeing means making some sacrifices on the extreme ends of the spectrum and improvements to the A330 are a very cheap way to mitigate some of that.
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RE: Airbus Challenges The 787-10X With A330-300S

Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:33 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 3):

Because Airbus has very special magic science that Boeing doesn't know about.   Yeah I know, the logic on this board is curious....

I think JL is jumping the gun here..big time. He's effectively telling customers the A350-800 is dead on arrival, and he's caught without a product to compete with the 787. This A33S won't get very far and won't keep Boeing awake. I think Airbus may have gone a bridge too far, because this is a lot more to add to their strained resources, and people will ask the logical question: "isn't this the A350 you offered the first time?"

Don't think this will see a lot of traction.
 
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RE: Airbus Challenges The 787-10X With A330-300S

Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:39 pm

Quoting columba (Reply 7):
Uhmmm did not Airbus first try to fight the 787 with a "warmed" over A330 with new winglets and engines
Quoting redflyer (Reply 22):
Sounds like the A350 Mk 1 reloaded.

An aircraft that should have been built.  

mariner

[Edited 2012-01-30 10:48:37]
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RE: Airbus Challenges The 787-10X With A330-300S

Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:47 pm

Quoting ferpe (Thread starter):
A has actively confirmed to the magazine that they want to add 400nm to the range by increasing MTOW to 240t + adding sharklets for the A330-300 only.

Another question: what is the point of increasing MTOW on an A333?

The existing aircraft is fuel volume limited, not MTOW limited, on most intercontinental sectors. On shorter sectors, the aircraft is already capable of carrying a staggeringly heavy payload. Unless they're planning to put the A332/A343 center fuel tank onto the A333 -- something which would add empty weight -- then I'm not sure what increasing MTOW will accomplish.

My understanding is that this is why the last round of MTOW increases took the A332 to 238 t while only bringing the A333 to 235 t.
 
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RE: Airbus Challenges The 787-10X With A330-300S

Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:53 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 25):
The aim is to squeeze some more life and revenue out of a quality but aging airframe with minimal investment.

If true, since this is all still quite speculative, I agree it is just that. How big the more revenue will be, and how much longer that life will be, only time will tell.
 
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RE: Airbus Challenges The 787-10X With A330-300S

Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:55 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 28):
Unless they're planning to put the A332/A343 center fuel tank onto the A333 -- something which would add empty weight -- then I'm not sure what increasing MTOW will accomplish.

Good observation, might be just the thing they do given that they don't upgrade the -200. The tank is already there = center wingbox, what you need are the pumps and the piping/valving and the electronics that goes with it, but that might not weigh to much and gives the 300S a very high flexibility to fly many missions below what the 350 range can do. Fill it to 250 pax and you fly 6600nm, the range of the 787-10X practically.
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RE: Airbus Challenges The 787-10X With A330-300S

Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:08 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 29):
. How big the more revenue will be, and how much longer that life will be, only time will tell.

It would be hard to ever know. If Airbus offers a slightly improved A330, all of the sudden the A350 becomes a better option for some airlines since they don't have to give up any efficiency on the lower end of the range spectrum. An A330/A350 combo could compete more effectively with a 787/777 combo than just the A350 alone.
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RE: Airbus Challenges The 787-10X With A330-300S

Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:15 pm

This is a very interesting proposal. I'd love to see more information on it. Personally I find it interesting how Airbus is working in the large twin category. They are taking on two Boeing models with a single airplane in the long term. There have been lots of threads on how the A350-1000 is measuring up to the 77W and now we are seeing threads on how the A330-300 is being marketed against the 787-10 instead of the A350-800.

In all honesty, I wonder what Airbus plans to get out of this. They likely think they can get a few more sales for the A333. Maybe there is a very vocal customer or few customers that might be interested in it and are proposing large enough orders for an enhanced A333 to be commercially viable. The fact that it is the A333 only and not A332 as well indicates that there might be a very specific customer they are targeting, because the A332 goes up well against the smaller 787s when measured on capacity alone.

If they have a customer interested and have a positive payback and enough resources to do this, I think it is a great idea. On the other hand, enhancing the A333 just so that they can kill off the 787-10 seems like odd gamesmanship and more an exercise in game theory than a legitimate attempt at a profitable airplane. I am guessing Airbus does not want the 787-10 launched, so they are trying to erode the market.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 28):
Another question: what is the point of increasing MTOW on an A333?

The existing aircraft is fuel volume limited, not MTOW limited, on most intercontinental sectors. On shorter sectors, the aircraft is already capable of carrying a staggeringly heavy payload. Unless they're planning to put the A332/A343 center fuel tank onto the A333 -- something which would add empty weight -- then I'm not sure what increasing MTOW will accomplish.

Any airplane that is fuel volume limited on most intercontinental sectors is a horrible design. Fuel volume is for all practical purposes far easier to add than MTOW. Add a bigger center tank, put fuel in the horizontal stabilizer, trade cargo volume for fuel etc for the customers that need the fuel. If they are going to spend money enhancing an airplane, adding fuel volume is low hanging fruit from a design perspective.

Also when I look at the airplane performance chart, the A330-300 does not hit fuel volume limited range until 5,500 nm, so unless I look at the charts wrong, it isn't fuel volume limited since no airline approaches that range. From what I understand of payload-range charts. The top line is Max Landing Weight/structural load Limit. The curve starts to go down and follows the MTOW as the plane trades fuel for payload. The second kink is where airplane hits max fuel capacity and any increases in range are from lowering takeoff weight.

MTOW however is huge for operators. It gives more range or cargo capability. While shorter routes operated within Asia where the A330-300 is very popular along with US-Europe don't approach those capabilities, higher MTOW can be very beneficial for long haul operations. That was the whole point of the A340. When the A330 and A340 were proposed, there were no engines available that gave a twin a high enough MTOW for long haul range. That's the reason for the A340. However with steady increases in MTOW, the A330-300 killed off what was left of the A340-300 market that had not been taken by the 777.

[Edited 2012-01-30 11:52:46]
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Motorhussy
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RE: Airbus Challenges The 787-10X With A330-300S

Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:16 pm

Quoting redflyer (Reply 22):
Quoting columba (Reply 7):
Uhmmm did not Airbus first try to fight the 787 with a "warmed" over A330 with new winglets and engines


Sounds like the A350 Mk 1 reloaded.

Yes and hopefully Airbus will include some of the other advantages promised for the original A350 - like the increased internal cabin gauge and A380 style cabin enhancements.

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ODwyerPW
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RE: Airbus Challenges The 787-10X With A330-300S

Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:37 pm

It is an interesting development, because I thought that the A350-900 compared very favorably to the rumored 787-10X. The 900 variant is the first to be released, so it will enjoy many years of service before and PIP programs/improvements before EIS of the 787-10X.
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BMI727
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RE: Airbus Challenges The 787-10X With A330-300S

Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:41 pm

Quoting odwyerpw (Reply 34):
It is an interesting development, because I thought that the A350-900 compared very favorably to the rumored 787-10X.

It would most likely give up some efficiency on shorter routes, but have a considerable payload-range advantage on the 787. It depends on the mission, but an improved A330 would allow Airbus to compete somewhat better for a bit more time on shorter flights than the A350 could in the near future.
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Wsp
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RE: Airbus Challenges The 787-10X With A330-300S

Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:53 pm

Quoting ferpe (Thread starter):
According to the French business magazine La Tribune the Airbus enhancements plans for the 330 is only focusing on the A330-300, not the -200!

...

By not improving the A320-200 A is basically saying they don't go after frames which are launched (789) or in production with this move (788), it is all about influencing Bs 787-10X / 777-8/9 launch planning.

This article
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...good-results-on-a320-tests-367002/

claims:

Quote:
and the airframer needed to analyse wing loading - particularly because it was also trying to raise the A330-200's maximum take-off weight to 240t.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Airbus Challenges The 787-10X With A330-300S

Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:08 pm

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 32):
Also when I look at the airplane performance chart, the A330-300 does not hit fuel volume limited range until 5,500 nm, so unless I look at the charts wrong, it isn't fuel volume limited since no airline approaches that range.

When you account for winds, reserves, etc., some A333 operators do approach that range. Asia-Oceania, U.S. West Coast-Japan, and Europe-U.S. West Coast routes come to mind.

But in any case, the fuel volume limitation is a major restriction on the A333's flexibility. It's the only widebody airliner I know of that is fuel volume limited, not weight limited, at a nominal passengers & bags payload. With a center tank, transpac and U.S. East Coast-Middle East routes could become an option. The question is whether operators would prefer to get that extra range, or would prefer not to add the empty weight of the tank and associated equipment.

[Edited 2012-01-30 12:10:17]
 
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus Challenges The 787-10X With A330-300S

Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:10 pm

Quoting ferpe (Reply 14):
According to La Tribune Airbus says it will be available in 3-4 years.

So will the 787-9. An aircraft with roughly identical passenger capacity to the A330-300, not insignificantly more cargo capacity, and the lift to move both anywhere an A330-300S can and a number of places an A330-300S cannot.

Boeing doesn't need the 787-10X to fight the A330-300(S). It just offers them even more competitive advantage.



Quoting mariner (Reply 27):
(The A350 Mk I is an) aircraft that should have been built.  

Alas, it should have been built four years ago, not four years hence. It's going to arrive just in time to be eclipsed by the 787-9, the 787-10X and A350-900. And the A350-800 itself will not be too far off.
 
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RE: Airbus Challenges The 787-10X With A330-300S

Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:19 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 37):
But in any case, the fuel volume limitation is a major restriction on the A333's flexibility. It's the only widebody airliner I know of that is fuel volume limited, not weight limited, at a nominal passengers & bags payload.

I believe that the 789 will also be volume-limited.

It is interesting to me (and strains credulity a bit) that a 20yo design, with a few minor modifications, can compete effectively with a brand-new design made out of "magical" materials with a completely new systems architecture and brand-new engines.

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 32):
However with steady increases in MTOW, the A330-300 killed off what was left of the A340-300 market that had not been taken by the 777.

And this is very true. As the A330 was continuously improved, it effectively replaced early-build 777-200ER models. It didn't have quite the oomph, but it did have better operating economics. SQ got rid of their old 772's and replaced them with A333's. I wonder that Boeing wasn't able to match these improvements with the 772.
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Wsp
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RE: Airbus Challenges The 787-10X With A330-300S

Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:20 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 38):
Alas, it should have been built four years ago, not four years hence. It's going to arrive just in time to be eclipsed by the 787-9, the 787-10X and A350-900. And the A350-800 itself will not be too far off.

This site has 7 years worth of speculation about the 787-10 and all the aircraft models it is going to eclipse. So far its primary way of destroying its competitors seems to be to wait for them to die of old age.
 
tomcat
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RE: Airbus Challenges The 787-10X With A330-300S

Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:30 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 38):
Quoting ferpe (Reply 14):
According to La Tribune Airbus says it will be available in 3-4 years.

So will the 787-9.

But what about comparing the earliest available delivery date if one places an order today? It could very well be that the A333S could be actually delivered a few years earlier than the 787-9, not to speak about the 787-10.
 
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RE: Airbus Challenges The 787-10X With A330-300S

Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:37 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 39):
I believe that the 789 will also be volume-limited.

I you are referring to fuel or payload ?
 
ukoverlander
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RE: Airbus Challenges The 787-10X With A330-300S

Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:40 pm

Quoting Ronaldo747 (Reply 1):
Well .... this is a confession of failure to the A350 XWB program and the big fear/panic of losing the A340.300 customers to the 787-10X.

Is this really the most reasoned and deduced response that you can conjure up using the information available?   

They really should make pills for this stuff               
 
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RE: Airbus Challenges The 787-10X With A330-300S

Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:07 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 37):
But in any case, the fuel volume limitation is a major restriction on the A333's flexibility. It's the only widebody airliner I know of that is fuel volume limited, not weight limited, at a nominal passengers & bags payload

I think you'll find that both the 747-400 and (perhaps surprisingly), the 777-300ER fit into that category also, although at c. 7 200Nm and 7 800Nm for the fuel volume limited range respectively, they come very close to their nominal payload ranges.

Rgds
 
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RE: Airbus Challenges The 787-10X With A330-300S

Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:17 pm

Quoting Ronaldo747 (Reply 1):
Well .... this is a confession of failure to the A350 XWB program and the big fear/panic of losing the A340.300 customers to the 787-10X.

No, just the A358, which looks like a dog. If you optimize for the A359, then do a simple shrink, not a reoptimized shrink, it's gonna be a dog.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Airbus Challenges The 787-10X With A330-300S

Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:26 pm

Quoting astuteman (Reply 44):
I think you'll find that both the 747-400 and (perhaps surprisingly), the 777-300ER fit into that category also, although at c. 7 200Nm and 7 800Nm for the fuel volume limited range respectively, they come very close to their nominal payload ranges.

   Right you are, especially with the 747-400. I should have looked at it before making the claim.

But nothing else even comes close to being as hamstrung by lack of fuel capacity as the A333. Just how much empty weight would it add to give it the center tank? Airbus doesn't have to worry about kneecapping the A343 anymore.
 
qfa787380
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RE: Airbus Challenges The 787-10X With A330-300S

Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:40 pm

More problems/delays for the 350 and Airbus needs to get something out there with a satisfactory range/payload combination?
Some analysts, such as Bernstein, are estimating 2015 EIS for the 359. Then, if there are production ramp up issues, Airbus will neeed an alternative. Does anyone seriously think a 333S can "kill" the -10X??? Compete satisfactorily for a little while would be my estimation.
 
redflyer
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RE: Airbus Challenges The 787-10X With A330-300S

Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:49 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 27):
Quoting redflyer (Reply 22):
Sounds like the A350 Mk 1 reloaded.

An aircraft that should have been built.

Indeed. I know some on this board (I think you were one of them) thought Airbus should have stuck to the A350 Mk 1 while everyone else (myself included) were saying Airbus would get creamed if they didn't go all-out with an all-plastic model. Amazing this thing has come full circle. If Airbus can pull it off they get the best of both.
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roseflyer
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RE: Airbus Challenges The 787-10X With A330-300S

Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:58 pm

Quoting astuteman (Reply 44):
I think you'll find that both the 747-400 and (perhaps surprisingly), the 777-300ER fit into that category also, although at c. 7 200Nm and 7 800Nm for the fuel volume limited range respectively, they come very close to their nominal payload ranges.

Actually the ranges are identical to the nominal range that Boeing quotes. It's not a coincidence. The range that Boeing quotes is the full tanks & MTOW range (i.e. the second kink in the range payload chart). These ranges do not necessarily reflect typical operating conditions.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!

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