av8orwalk
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WN/FL FA's OK Seniority Integration

Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:56 pm

Another hurdle cleared today. This is a pretty big one!

http://www.twu556.org/

Cheers,
Drew MCO
The safest place to be in an airplane crash is on the ground.
 
hiflyeras
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RE: WN/FL FA's OK Seniority Integration

Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:11 pm

I curious if anyone knows if this was Date of Hire? I assume so since the US Congress passed the McCaskill-Bond bill that addresses seniority integration at airlines.
 
usflyguy
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RE: WN/FL FA's OK Seniority Integration

Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:21 pm

Somewhat complicated but basically it's DOH + 2.5 years of seniority for SWA flight attendants unless a SWA FA bids in to the SWA ATL base when it opens in which case they'll bid straight DOH.
My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
 
gizmonc
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RE: WN/FL FA's OK Seniority Integration

Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:28 pm

From the twu556.org site:

Results as follows:

AFA
Members that voted for the agreement: 1523 - 94.19%
Members that voted against the agreement: 94 - 5.81%

Total Votes: 1617 representing 81.9 percent of eligible voters.

TWU
Members that voted for the agreement: 4785 - 65.86%
Members that voted against the agreement: 2480 - 34.14%

Total Votes: 7265 representing 73.64 percent of eligible voters.
 
hiflyeras
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RE: WN/FL FA's OK Seniority Integration

Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:44 pm

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 2):
Somewhat complicated but basically it's DOH + 2.5 years of seniority for SWA flight attendants unless a SWA FA bids in to the SWA ATL base when it opens in which case they'll bid straight DOH.

Sounds fair....thanks for the info!
 
n471wn
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RE: WN/FL FA's OK Seniority Integration

Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:48 pm

Which group represents which airline?
 
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Tugger
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RE: WN/FL FA's OK Seniority Integration

Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:51 pm

Quoting n471wn (Reply 5):
Which group represents which airline?

TWU = Southwest
AFA = AirTran

The TWU is the surviving entity (no surprise there).

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
ScottB
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RE: WN/FL FA's OK Seniority Integration

Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:52 pm

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 2):
Somewhat complicated but basically it's DOH + 2.5 years of seniority for SWA flight attendants unless a SWA FA bids in to the SWA ATL base when it opens in which case they'll bid straight DOH.

Seems fairly reasonable; what happens if the size of the ATL base is reduced and PMFL FA's are displaced?
 
WNLUV
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RE: WN/FL FA's OK Seniority Integration

Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:03 pm

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 2):

  

DOH + 2.5 years for SWA flight attendants hired before September 26, 2010. AirTran flight attendants get DOH.
 
usflyguy
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RE: WN/FL FA's OK Seniority Integration

Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:07 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 7):
what happens if the size of the ATL base is reduced and PMFL FA's are displaced?

I could be wrong but I think during the transition training at SWA they will rank their base preferences just like all SWA flight attendants do and they'll go to the base on their list with an opening. For those that transition over first, it's highly likely they'll be somewhere else beside ATL as SWA won't have a base there. The AirTran flight attendants that were in ATL or MCO will have the right-of-first-return (first to get in to the base) to their original base after they transition as long as there is an opening.

Not all FA's will transition at once... I think it's going to work out that each time a plane goes in to be modified from FL to WN, the corresponding number of FA's and pilots per plane will go through the transition training as well.
My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
 
Gemuser
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RE: WN/FL FA's OK Seniority Integration

Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:30 pm

Quoting WNLUV (Reply 8):
DOH + 2.5 years for SWA flight attendants hired before September 26, 2010. AirTran flight attendants get DOH.

Why do SWA FAs get the 2.5 years advantage? Doesn't sound very reasonable to me.

Gemuser
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hiflyeras
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RE: WN/FL FA's OK Seniority Integration

Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:04 am

Quoting gemuser (Reply 10):
Why do SWA FAs get the 2.5 years advantage? Doesn't sound very reasonable to me.

I'm guessing, from the numbers shown above, that the WN FA's would have voted the agreement down without some sort of acknowledgment that they are the acquiring carrier.
 
usflyguy
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RE: WN/FL FA's OK Seniority Integration

Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:42 am

Quoting gemuser (Reply 10):

If I had to guess, it's probably to offset the quality-of-life and compensation improvements the FL fa's are getting by joining the SWA ranks.
My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
 
southloopswa
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RE: WN/FL FA's OK Seniority Integration

Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:00 am

Quoting gemuser (Reply 10):

2.5 years is nothing! If it weren't for McCaskill/Bond, there are a lot of my fellow FA's that would have gladly sent them to the bottom of the seniority list. (I'm not one of those) They are getting better pay and work rules. So it seems fair to me... I'm just glad it's done and we are moving on!
 
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Tugger
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RE: WN/FL FA's OK Seniority Integration

Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:18 am

Quoting gizmonc (Reply 3):
TWU
Members that voted for the agreement: 4785 - 65.86%
Members that voted against the agreement: 2480 - 34.14%

My question is was there a particular "block" of FA's that voted one way or another on the contract (senior, junior, MCO, BWI based, etc.)?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
737tdi
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RE: WN/FL FA's OK Seniority Integration

Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:39 pm

Quoting gemuser (Reply 10):
Why do SWA FAs get the 2.5 years advantage? Doesn't sound very reasonable to me.

Gemuser




You have to see the whole picture.

Big pay increase, 401K contributions, profit sharing, better medical. Plus being with a much more stable company. I think that is definitely worth 2.5 years of seniority. JMO.
 
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longhauler
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RE: WN/FL FA's OK Seniority Integration

Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:34 am

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 15):
Big pay increase, 401K contributions, profit sharing, better medical. Plus being with a much more stable company. I think that is definitely worth 2.5 years of seniority. JMO.

Yes, but doesn't any new hire WN Flight Attendant get the same thing? Why should the FL Flight Attendants "pay" for something that any WN F/A gets, even those hired tomorrow off the street?
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
WNCrew
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RE: WN/FL FA's OK Seniority Integration

Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:03 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 16):
Quoting 737tdi (Reply 15):
Big pay increase, 401K contributions, profit sharing, better medical. Plus being with a much more stable company. I think that is definitely worth 2.5 years of seniority. JMO.

Yes, but doesn't any new hire WN Flight Attendant get the same thing? Why should the FL Flight Attendants "pay" for something that any WN F/A gets, even those hired tomorrow off the street?

I agree with you long hauler.... WN Fa's are VERY self-centered and seem to value themselves more than they should. They're "plain ole domestic FA's" who offer basic service with great attitudes.... PERIOD. And that's just 75% of them. We have our fair share who have awful attitudes.

I am a WN FA... my company bought FL. Personally, I didn't buy anything. My job won't change and I don't have to do a different job than I do now, not do I have to actually work harder. Having said that, WHY... WHY did so many WN FA's feel they deserved something? I don't know. They're not loosing a thing. So FL get's XYZ... good for them! But they also might have to commute, they ALSO have to go back to training for almost 2 weeks... (while our FA's moan and whine about Recurrent Training that's ONE day.) Our FA's don't have to risk their jobs, but if FL FA's fail integration training then they loose their jobs. On top of that, WN didn't SAVE FL from anything. They were a successful company making MONEY. They're MORE PRODUCTIVE than WN, they have lower costs!!!! So all these chest-beating WN people need a reality check. They don't "deserve" anything more than what they barely work for now.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
usflyguy
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RE: WN/FL FA's OK Seniority Integration

Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:48 am

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 17):

Wow... that's not very becoming of a "WNCrew"member to speak of your fellow employees like that. Seems pretty offensive actually.
My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
 
southloopswa
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RE: WN/FL FA's OK Seniority Integration

Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:14 am

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 17):

I think your assement is a bit harsh. Don't get me wrong, I agree that they are putting a lot more on the line. But the end game is always seniority. If a furlough were ever to happen, there would be some WN FA's that could be let go before some FL FA's. So I can understand some of the rancor on behalf of some of our co-workers. I know nothing is ever fair, not everyone will be happy, but I think this was as fair an equitable as possible...

[Edited 2012-02-01 23:15:26]
 
Jerseyguy
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RE: WN/FL FA's OK Seniority Integration

Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:16 am

Quoting gemuser (Reply 10):
Why do SWA FAs get the 2.5 years advantage? Doesn't sound very reasonable to me.
Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 11):
I'm guessing, from the numbers shown above, that the WN FA's would have voted the agreement down without some sort of acknowledgment that they are the acquiring carrier.

Gotta love the union mentality, you cant do this if we dont say so. Never mind the fact that the company is the one with all of the money putting forward and such.
Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
 
Jerseyguy
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RE: WN/FL FA's OK Seniority Integration

Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:23 am

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 17):
I agree with you long hauler.... WN Fa's are VERY self-centered and seem to value themselves more than they should. They're "plain ole domestic FA's" who offer basic service with great attitudes.... PERIOD. And that's just 75% of them. We have our fair share who have awful attitudes.

I am a WN FA... my company bought FL. Personally, I didn't buy anything. My job won't change and I don't have to do a different job than I do now, not do I have to actually work harder. Having said that, WHY... WHY did so many WN FA's feel they deserved something? I don't know. They're not loosing a thing. So FL get's XYZ... good for them! But they also might have to commute, they ALSO have to go back to training for almost 2 weeks... (while our FA's moan and whine about Recurrent Training that's ONE day.) Our FA's don't have to risk their jobs, but if FL FA's fail integration training then they loose their jobs. On top of that, WN didn't SAVE FL from anything. They were a successful company making MONEY. They're MORE PRODUCTIVE than WN, they have lower costs!!!! So all these chest-beating WN people need a reality check. They don't "deserve" anything more than what they barely work for now.

I couldnt have said it any better myself. Welcome to my RU list

Quoting southloopswa (Reply 19):
I think your assement is a bit harsh. Don't get me wrong, I agree that they are putting a lot more on the line. But the end game is always seniority. If a furlough were ever to happen, there would be some WN FA's that could be let go before some FL FA's. So I can understand some of the rancor on behalf of some of our co-workers. I know nothing is ever fair, not everyone will be happy, but I think this was as fair an equitable as possible...

If that happens its because the FL employee has been with FL/WN for a longer period of time. As far as I'm concerned as soon as the merger is complete, your all WN employees, PERIOD. If someone gets layoff, a WN employee gets laid off, not a former FL employee.



*Edited to post that WNCrew is already on my respected users list. Welcome to my unoffical RRU (Really Respected Users List)


[Edited 2012-02-02 01:34:09]
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tothestars
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RE: WN/FL FA's OK Seniority Integration

Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:43 am

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 1):

Congratulations on the agreement. Very sad that the stapled TWA F/As who were instrumental in the passing of this bill will be losing their jobs yet again with the layoffs at AA... they didn't get to benefit from its protections.
TWA-Airline To the Stars
 
WNCrew
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RE: WN/FL FA's OK Seniority Integration

Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:45 pm

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 18):
Wow... that's not very becoming of a "WNCrew"member to speak of your fellow employees like that. Seems pretty offensive actually.

Sometimes the truth is hard to hear. Mind you, I'm not speaking of 100% of my coworkers but I was VERY disappointed in much of what came out of the woodwork after this all started. It is what it is.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
WNCrew
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RE: WN/FL FA's OK Seniority Integration

Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:53 pm

Quoting southloopswa (Reply 19):
I think your assement is a bit harsh. Don't get me wrong, I agree that they are putting a lot more on the line. But the end game is always seniority.

...and that would have been fine, if all we'd heard were people complaining about seniority. The problem.... the problem was that SO many WN FA's were saying they wanted a raise (this was NOT a Contract Negotiation) they wanted furlough protection guarantee (um... if a company furloughs they furlough, you can only expect so much) they complained that FL FA's didn't have to sit probation (never mind they already did at FL but that this was a company decision, not the union) they complained that FL go right of return to the base that was theirs to begin with, they complained that they got their own rooms in integration training, they complained that the FL FA's didn't have to pay for uniforms and I heard countless internals whining about what they "gave up" when they left reservations/ramp etc and how they didn't like someone coming in ahead of them (you LEFT your department... you're essentially NEW again.. that's reality).

SO many WN FA's weren't grounded in reality at ALL and didn't understand, or even WANT to understand the process at all. I STILL heard people say "They should be stapled to the bottom..." really? It was like talking to a wall. SO sure my assessment might be harsh but it's completely true. I was SHOCKED with the amount of ignorance, entitlement, and negativity coming from the WN FA's. For people so "worried about the culture" they sure weren't walking the walk.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
southloopswa
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RE: WN/FL FA's OK Seniority Integration

Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:22 pm

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 24):

Oh, don't I know it! I was just as disgusted by some of the things I was and still am reading on various FA message boards! I did say on behalf of "some" of our co-workers.   the folks you were addressing are a very vocal minority, thank goodness.

Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 21):

Do you work in the airline industry? Just wondering.
 
737tdi
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RE: WN/FL FA's OK Seniority Integration

Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:53 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 16):
Yes, but doesn't any new hire WN Flight Attendant get the same thing? Why should the FL Flight Attendants "pay" for something that any WN F/A gets, even those hired tomorrow off the street?




Not really, the Air Tran F/A's will come in with their seniority which means they are not day 1 new hires. I am not sure of WN's pay scale for F/As but if it's similar to us (mechs) there is a very large pay jump at 5 years which means the mechanics from AT with 5+ years of service will automatically top out.

I do agree with WNCrew about members wanting something for themselves, I don't feel this way at all, and to be honest I haven't heard anyone say they should get a raise or any compensation (again talking maint.).
 
SWAFA27
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RE: WN/FL FA's OK Seniority Integration

Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:45 am

WN FA's were scared to death of this agreement going to arbitration. Thats why it passed, plain and simple.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co
 
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longhauler
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RE: WN/FL FA's OK Seniority Integration

Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:04 pm

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 17):
I agree with you long hauler.... WN Fa's are VERY self-centered and seem to value themselves more than they should. They're "plain ole domestic FA's" who offer basic service with great attitudes.... PERIOD. And that's just 75% of them. We have our fair share who have awful attitudes.

This is a very logical, unemotional position, and I congratulate you for the courage to state that publicly.

I have been through 5 seniority mergers, and know that they are never easy. Each side must state their own position and worth before an arbitrator. But, in reality it is just a bargaining position. The real issues arise when you start to believe your own press releases.

If you start to believe incorrectly that you actually are "worth" more than those on the other side of the bench, future issues will occur. Least of all when you have work together with them. Southwest Airlines has a fine reputation for good Customer service. While a don't think a merger with another airline will change that, battling between the two groups will.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!

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