Max Q
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Why Is The A332F Selling So Badly?

Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:13 am

This seems like an ideal freighter for its payload capability niche.


Why can't they sell more of them ?
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Stitch
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RE: Why Is The A332F Selling So Badly?

Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:20 am

They have secured 60 orders for the type through the end of December 2011, which is quite respectable. That's about half of the 767-300F's and 777F's order books (111 and 127, respectively), so there seems to be a market.
 
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RE: Why Is The A332F Selling So Badly?

Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:22 am

It has about 60 orders. The freighter market is not as large as the passenger market. The A330F has to compete not only against new build 767s and 777s, but also against converted freighters.

The 777 has about double the orders, but I think a large part of that has to do with it having more range and being better suited to intercontinental flying and it can replace MD11s.

I'd expect the A330 to continue to sell. They lost the competition for FedEx and UPS, which is why they look far worse than the 767 or 777, but I don't think the numbers are that bad. New built freighters is a small market and it's additional revenue on top of existing models. That's why we don't see the manufacturers investing in freighter models early on in airplane development. The MTOW improvements over time make a freighter worthwhile. The A330F has only been in service for a few years, as Airbus had been sticking with A300Fs.

[Edited 2012-02-01 16:24:44]
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Max Q
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RE: Why Is The A332F Selling So Badly?

Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:27 am

It seemed like an ideal DC10 / A300 replacement at FDX but I understand if the 763F could do the job it is a lot cheaper plus you have commonality with their 757's.



Perhaps UPS might look at it.



Who has bought most of them ?
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RE: Why Is The A332F Selling So Badly?

Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:30 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
They have secured 60 orders for the type through the end of December 2011, which is quite respectable.

The headline number isn't bad. The problem is the relatively small list of end users. Most orders (41 out of 62 by the end of January) are from leasing companies and most have yet to be placed.

Orders below with deliveries to date in brackets.

Aircastle 3 (3) (All 3 to Hong Kong / Hainan)
Avion 8 (0)
BOC 5 (0)
Intrepid 19 (0)
MalinPatterson 6 (0)


Avianca 4 (0)
Etihad 4 (2)
Malayia Airlines 4 (3)
MNG 4 (0)
Turkish 5 (2)
 
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RE: Why Is The A332F Selling So Badly?

Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:44 am

Most cargo operators can't afford new-build aircraft, especially in the current economic environment.
 
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RE: Why Is The A332F Selling So Badly?

Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:20 am

It's too expensive, for the typical freight operator and the sales figures are NOT good. Once you take out the few "players" like Fedex or UPS that could afford this a/c, the remainder is quite slim. Also, freight is not as forgiving as a pax flight. The pax A332 is successful on long hauls because there is a big long haul market that cannot support a 77L, 744, A345/6 or A380 load. That formula does not work well for freight. Freight needs big loads and that is why you do not see small a/c operating long haul freight flights. Freighters also have more down time, vs. a pax a/c, hence lower utilization. Not sure on the current cost of new build A332F but I would estimate it is between 75-100 times the price of a paid off DC/MD-10. The older paid off planes can be parked with no problem. You cannot allow a new build A332F to sit idle. Personally, I never understood why Airbus did not put the effort into the A333 as a freighter. Yes, it would have had more limited range, but it would seem to have had capacity closer to a DC-10 replacement.

Airbus seems to know what they are doing w/ their pax types, but when it comes to the freighter market, the 332F has Airbus openly admitting the sales figures are a bit disappointing. The cancellation of the A380F also was in my opinion, a mistake too, considering UPS and FedEx were aboard w/ orders.
 
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RE: Why Is The A332F Selling So Badly?

Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:33 am

Quoting Max Q (Thread starter):
Why can't they sell more of them ?

I'd say that the fact that many freight carriers have not yet started replacing A300s and 767s on a large scale is mostly responsible. Plus the fact that A330s are still in demand as passenger planes doesn't help either.
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Stitch
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RE: Why Is The A332F Selling So Badly?

Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:37 am

Quoting crownvic (Reply 6):
Personally, I never understood why Airbus did not put the effort into the A333 as a freighter. Yes, it would have had more limited range, but it would seem to have had capacity closer to a DC-10 replacement.

The A330-200F matches the DC-10-30F in a number of areas:

Volume: 475m3 for the A330-200F | 470m3 for the DC-10-30F
Payload: Both will lift 70 tons
Range: 5930km for the A330-200F | 5500km for the DC-10-30F
 
Max Q
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RE: Why Is The A332F Selling So Badly?

Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:00 am

Maybe it's best days are yet to come.
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RE: Why Is The A332F Selling So Badly?

Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:09 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 9):
Maybe its best days are yet to come.

Oh, assuredly. The A330F will be in production for many years...
 
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RE: Why Is The A332F Selling So Badly?

Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:47 am

Is it possible to convert the current A330 planes to A330F??

Because when the A350 start flying I´m sure it will be easier to find cheap A330 and convert to A330F.
 
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RE: Why Is The A332F Selling So Badly?

Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:51 am

Is the humpy thing on the nose partly responsible?
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RE: Why Is The A332F Selling So Badly?

Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:00 am

Quoting ghifty (Reply 12):
Is the humpy thing on the nose partly responsible?

Without the hump, there'd be no A330 F at all, since the standard aircraft has a decidedly nose-down stance, which is not a good thing when you're loading thousands of tons of cargo. The load floor needs to be level, hence the nose blister.
 
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RE: Why Is The A332F Selling So Badly?

Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:08 am

Quoting ghifty (Reply 12):
the humpy thing on the nose

Is that technical talk for the nosewheel fairing?  
Quoting migair54 (Reply 11):
Is it possible to convert the current A330 planes to A330F??

Have you had a word with Mr. Al-Baker recently...?  

Airbus are under pressure to develop P2F programmes for the A330 (especially the -300) but they are reluctant to do so as such a development might further weaken A330F sales.

A certain Middle East airline is increasingly impatient with them...  
 
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RE: Why Is The A332F Selling So Badly?

Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:09 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 7):
Plus the fact that A330s are still in demand as passenger planes doesn't help either.

I'd go along with that, didnt one of the lessors recently convert some of their A332F orders to pax A330s as they are more in demand and get better rates.

I expect as the A350 and 787 come more on line, more A332Fs will start to get produced (as the A306 became exclusively frieghter in it's last few years).
 
Burkhard
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RE: Why Is The A332F Selling So Badly?

Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:15 am

Availability may also count in, the A330 is sold out for years while 767s can be started tomorrow and delivered in 12-18months.
 
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RE: Why Is The A332F Selling So Badly?

Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:19 am

Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 15):
I'd go along with that, didnt one of the lessors recently convert some of their A332F orders to pax A330s

More than one.
 
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RE: Why Is The A332F Selling So Badly?

Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:06 am

Like stated above, a big thing is that it is too expensive to see a large quantity of orders right off the bat.

IMHO, when cargo operators purchase new aircraft , that plane needs to be able to strongly outperform ones in their current fleet (or just look really really cool . . . aka 748). Look at what happened to the a38F. Thats even a craft the offers unrivaled capacity...

The 767 is already a massively used aircraft for this class of cargo capacity. Its much cheaper for them to buy used and takes very little to modify it. Sure, the 332 has a much better range, but lets be honest - most cargo airlines aren't worried TOO much about range on that size of plane. Boxes and palletts don't care if the flight from PVG to JFK has a 3-4 hours stop in ANC. Even if there is a "rush" and something DESPERATELY needs to make it 11,000 miles overnight, chances are its going to get chucked on a pax flight anyway. One exception to this is obviously FedEx, who loves their 777's, but thats FedEx. They just kinda do what they want and still make tons of money.

I love the 330. Its one of my favorite planes, and honestly for a new freighter, I think 50 on the book is an awesome start for it and hope to see it around CAN soon!

Chris

[Edited 2012-02-02 01:13:49]
 
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RE: Why Is The A332F Selling So Badly?

Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:28 am

Quoting CZ346 (Reply 18):
Boxes and palletts don't care if the flight from PVG to JFK has a 3-4 hours stop in ANC. Even if there is a "rush" and something DESPERATELY needs to make it 11,000 miles overnight, chances are its going to get chucked on a pax flight anyway. One exception to this is obviously FedEx, who loves their 777's, but thats FedEx. They just kinda do what they want and still make tons of money.

True the boxes and pallets don't care but the people sending and the people receiving do care.

FedEx does love their 777's but they aren't the only ones flying them and they didn't just buy them because the felt like it, it is an aircraft that works well for them and they eventually will replace the MD11 with them.

Quoting CZ346 (Reply 18):
IMHO, when cargo operators purchase new aircraft , that plane needs to be able to strongly outperform ones in their current fleet (or just look really really cool . . . aka 748).

Is this supposed to be a serious statement?

FX1816
 
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RE: Why Is The A332F Selling So Badly?

Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:53 am

Freight operators have always tended to favor a "one-size-fits-all" approach to cargo with large freighters. Although that worked until a few years ago, with pressure on yields from increased competition, with high fuel prices, that model doesn't seem to be optimal. I think Etihad has it right, mixing its cargo fleet among the 777F and the A330-200F.
They can address different markets more efficiently and don't need to slash rates to fill up 100 tonnes at every destination, every time they fly there.
 
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RE: Why Is The A332F Selling So Badly?

Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:41 am

Quoting crownvic (Reply 6):
It's too expensive

Quite the reverse. Its cost per ton of lift is great. The problem is that Airbus has A330 customers eating up all the production slots. So they are not chasing new A330F customers with slots they don't have.

Back when Airbus WAS shopping the A330F around agressively, It was quite apparent that you could get 3 A330F for the price of 2 777F. So unless you really needed that extra range of the 777F, you would get more lift and more flexiblity in your fleet for the same money.

Expect the sales of both A330F and 777F to rise as the passenger orders fall, and for thier sales to fall as passenger orders rise.
 
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RE: Why Is The A332F Selling So Badly?

Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:59 am

I suspect that the lack of delivery slots in the near future has a lot to do with it. If you want a new build freighter, you can order a 767 and have it in less than two years or order an A330F and have it in, what, five? That has got to be big. I suspect the wait for a 777F is in the same range, but it is in a different class. It does seem that the 747F and the 777F have hit a sweet spot; and the A380F just didn't work, in spite of offering cheaper per ton costs. You would think that the A330F would have filled a niche between the 777F and 767F, but it seems to have missed for some reason. I am puzzled, as others seem to be as well.
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RE: Why Is The A332F Selling So Badly?

Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:03 pm

Quoting fx1816 (Reply 19):
True the boxes and pallets don't care but the people sending and the people receiving do care.

FedEx does love their 777's but they aren't the only ones flying them and they didn't just buy them because the felt like it, it is an aircraft that works well for them and they eventually will replace the MD11 with them.

No I know, and I was by no means saying that the 777 isn't an amazing cargo plane. It is, and I know there are other carriers who operate them. But theres only about... 50 of them out there and 60 (?) backlogged. My point was a little more along the lines of this is a factory configured freighter aircraft that delivers a unique performance to a cargo op - and we only have about 50 of them out and about 130 orders (only about 50-60 delivered). I don't think that the 332F offers the performance standard beneficial enough to entice cargo operators to purchase a new aircraft like the 777 does.

Quoting fx1816 (Reply 19):
Is this supposed to be a serious statement?

Yes and no. The 748 only being used by cargo part of it absolutely not. The 748 provides a LOAD of advantages that other similar type a/c don't. But the part about new cargo type aircraft needing to severely out perform others in class is obviously true. The 777F and 748F do that though. The 332F does not.
 
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RE: Why Is The A332F Selling So Badly?

Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:12 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
They have secured 60 orders for the type through the end of December 2011, which is quite respectable.



And two more already this year.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
That's about half of the 767-300F's



Which has been on offer significantly longer than the A330F. Before FedEx ordered 767Fs recently, the A330F was stacking up very well against the 767F.

Quoting migair54 (Reply 11):
Is it possible to convert the current A330 planes to A330F??



Not yet, and that's possibly another piece of the puzzle that might be damping down sales. I believe the lack of a P2F option for the A330 was a factor in FedEx's decision to order 767Fs. It's certainly a factor for QR - we know that because I seem to remember Al-Baker mentioning it! However, my personal opinion is that the pax version is in such high demand right now that I don't think a P2F option would seriously hamper A330F sales because so few would be available.
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RE: Why Is The A332F Selling So Badly?

Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:22 pm

Quoting CZ346 (Reply 18):
Like stated above, a big thing is that it is too expensive to see a large quantity of orders right off the bat.

I think it's as simple as that. With demand for the passenger version still extremely strong they don't have any reason to sell it cheap.

As for the FedEx order, its worth baring in mind that now Boeing has "acquired" the tanker order they needed to keep the line open. I'm not saying that they gave them away, but I'm willing to bet that FedEx got a stonkingly good deal on them.
 
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RE: Why Is The A332F Selling So Badly?

Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:50 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 3):
It seemed like an ideal DC10 / A300 replacement at FDX but I understand if the 763F could do the job it is a lot cheaper plus you have commonality with their 757's.

My understanding was that also the A330F's wingspan caused it to fall outside of FedEx's current widebody parking spots.

Our friends in purple sure do need a lot of parking spots:


View Large View Medium
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Photo © M.J. Scanlon Photography



Who knows what the future holds? Once the A330 goes through its current huge backlog and things slow down to a trickle, Airbus may be more motivated to push A330F at FedEx and UPS.

I don't know who else could make a large order, though.

DHL is much more into the 757 sized aircraft:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DHL_Aviation#Fleet

Any other likely suspects?
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RE: Why Is The A332F Selling So Badly?

Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:04 pm

Sorry, I'm not buying the lack of A-330 production slots for the poor showing of A-330F sales. If FedEx had ordered the A-330F instead of the B-767F, Airbus would have found the slots and delivery dates FedEx wanted.

The A-330Fs problem is it is an 'in between' freighter. It sits in between the B-767F on the low end and the B-777F on the high end.

It is not just UPS and FedEx the A-330F doesn't appeal to, but LH Cargo, AF Cargo, and others (CX, KE, BR, 5Y, etc.). Both LH and AF fly the A-330 pax models (AF also flies the B-777 pax models), and bringing the A-330F into their fleet would have fit well with their maintenance and spares inventory. But neither has ordered it, both have, or will order the more capable B-777F.

The A-330F, like the B-767F are DC/MD-10 replacement freighters, the B-767-300ERF being cheaper to buy and operate. The A-330F is not, nor will be a good MD-11F replacement.

The A-330F also does not fit in the next group of freighters needing to be replaced, these include the B-742F/BCF, older A-300F (not including the A-306F), A-310F, B-727F/CF, and the few remaining B-707Fs and DC-8Fs. Boeing has these aircraft pretty much convered with the B-744BCF, B-748F, B-767F and the B-757BCF. Airbus gave up on an A-320/-321P2F program and no viable WB P2F program. They seemed to have given this market up to the likes of Boeing and IAI.

Airbus's next currently known new build freighter program is the A-359F, which may (depending on capabilities once it is designed) compete with only the B-772F. If they ever revive the A-380F program (doubtful) it will still not be able to compete with the B-748F as it will be essentially a big package freighter and not well suited for out-sized cargo like the B-747F is.
 
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RE: Why Is The A332F Selling So Badly?

Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:12 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 27):
The A-330Fs problem is it is an 'in between' freighter. It sits in between the B-767F on the low end and the B-777F on the high end.

And yet that it has sold half as many frames in such a short period of time looks to me to be a sign that this market niche does exist and that there are carriers who want it.

The true test, I imagine, will be how many of those orders are delivered. Right now, it's about 15% (9 deliveries to 62 orders), but it is early days.
 
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RE: Why Is The A332F Selling So Badly?

Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:25 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 27):
Sorry, I'm not buying the lack of A-330 production slots for the poor showing of A-330F sales

Your not? Im shocked.

It's not only the lack of available slots, it's price too. Since 2004 there have been over 700 orders for the A330 compared to 150 for the 767 in the same time period. Because of this Airbus have no motivation to offer large discounts on the type, where as Boeing desperatley need the orders to keep the line open. Also, if you consider the A330F's sales poor what do you consider the 767F's to be? In 19 years its sold 111 copies, compared to the A330 selling 60 in 5. That's more than double the rate of sales.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 27):
It is not just UPS and FedEx the A-330F doesn't appeal to, but LH Cargo, AF Cargo, and others (CX, KE, BR, 5Y, etc.).

Do all these operators - AF,LH,CX,BR,etc operate the 767F then?
 
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RE: Why Is The A332F Selling So Badly?

Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:22 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 26):
My understanding was that also the A330F's wingspan caused it to fall outside of FedEx's current widebody parking spots.

The A330F wingspan is 12.7M / 41 ft 9 in - larger than the B763F. It is 9.9M / 32 ft 6 in larger wingspan than the DC-10-30 - if you are talking about replacing those planes. It is 8.64 M/ 29 ft 4 in wider than the MD-11.

If you are talking about fleet replacements at places like Lufthansa - that difference is a lot of room on the ramps for large cargo operators.

Before anyone asks - the 777F wingspan is larger than the A330F by 4.5M / 14 ft 9 in.
 
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RE: Why Is The A332F Selling So Badly?

Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:53 pm

Perhaps Airbus is just simply less interested in the cargo market than Boeing. Note that the only P2F program supported by Airbus seems to be the A300/310; which is no longer in production. There do seem to be operators that buy both new and converted, and having the option of either with factory support seems to be a big plus. Maybe JL needs to turn his considerable skills to the freight market, or perhaps Airbus management feels they just don't need it. It does seem that Boeing has an iron grip on the new-build freighter market and Airbus is only offering token competition. That's my take, anyway. If JL were going after freighter orders the same way he goes after pax orders I do not think this thread would exist.
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RE: Why Is The A332F Selling So Badly?

Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:01 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 3):


Perhaps UPS might look at it.

UPS is rather committed to the 767. They have been operating the type for quite a while. Recently they went for the 747-400. I don't think they have a plane to replace the MD11s yet.
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RE: Why Is The A332F Selling So Badly?

Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:58 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 2):
The 777 has about double the orders, but I think a large part of that has to do with it having more range and being better suited to intercontinental flying and it can replace MD11s.

I guess one can argue that the A330F is better suited for shorter routes, such as transcon, on which the extra weight of the 777F is hurting its fuel economy. There are so many A330F and A310F which will need to be replaced down the road that I cannot foresee a bad future for the 330F. None of those are doing long haul routes but are still carrying a good share of the whole world cargo. Something that the A330F can do at a much much better fuel cost, although competing with the 767F.
Now, there are also no less than 700 or so pax A330s that one day or another, may become candidates for freighter conversion. As well as 1000-ish 767s and 1000-ish 777s.
Brand new cargo planes is a tough market. Even the 748F is not a best-seller yet, although it might become so.
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jtdieffen
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RE: Why Is The A332F Selling So Badly?

Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:02 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 27):

At the risk of being drawn and quartered, I have to say that I whole-heartedly agree with KC135TopBoom. While I understand taking the long view of these things, I also feel like it's prudent in a situation like this to also look at the raw data. Since it's sales peak in 2008 of 81 frames (the most accurate point I could find for a high water mark), the sales for A332F have not only declined, but almost completely vanished. Over the past 3.5 years, the A330 has posted net sales of -21 - a loss of 20 percent - whereas the 777F has posted +61 - a gain of nearly 100 percent; and even the venerable 767 has posted a gain of +29. These are just new-build sales and do not take into account and P2F conversions of 763s.

While I hardly think the A330-200F has reached the end of the road, I think that it's legitimate to start asking questions about its lackluster order book. As noted above, the A332F sits in between the 777F and 767F performance-wise - though it's closer to the 767; and while it handily out-performs the 767 on raw performance, I think it really loses the argument of economics overall when compared with both Boeing models.

Since the A330 and 777 are only available as new-builds, it's somewhat easier to compare value as there isn't the cheaper conversion option available. The 777 has a nearly 50 percent payload advantage for an approximate 33 percent cost increase. A330 to 767 is a harder comparison since the 767 has a P2F conversion available in addition to the new-build. The A330 at 21 percent higher sale price for 28 percent payload advantage making it seem like a good deal. But since there is also a substantially cheaper conversion option also available for 763s, there is a potentially wider gap between payload and respective cost. Also, I think that much of the 'long-thin' cargo market is covered by underbelly cargo packed into pax flights. Leaving the 767 as the more economical fit for short-and mid-haul, 'thin' cargo. That's a terribly in-cohesive analysis (I know), but just a quick view of what I see as the breakdown between the options.

All that said, I just have to wonder if the modest payload/performance improvement between the A332 and 767 doesn't justify the expense of the bigger plane; coupled with the half-again payload gain between the 777F and A332 for a favorably disproportionate price.
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RE: Why Is The A332F Selling So Badly?

Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:55 pm

Quoting jtdieffen (Reply 34):
Over the past 3.5 years, the A330 has posted net sales of -21 - a loss of 20 percent - whereas the 777F has posted +61 - a gain of nearly 100 percent; and even the venerable 767 has posted a gain of +29. These are just new-build sales and do not take into account and P2F conversions of 763s.

Its ridiculous to compare the A330 to the 777, as for the rest of it - Put simply 111 sales in 19 years, compared to 60 in 5, it speaks for its self.
 
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RE: Why Is The A332F Selling So Badly?

Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:30 pm

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 35):
Its ridiculous to compare the A330 to the 777, as for the rest of it - Put simply 111 sales in 19 years, compared to 60 in 5, it speaks for its self.

How is it any more ridiculous than comparing the 767 to the A330, which you have done several times? In terms of payload going up from 767 to A330 to 777, the increments are very similarly sized, so I think that comparing the A330F to both ends of its market is extremely relevant, and at worst, far from 'ridiculous.' I think that the 777's success has much to do with the A330's lack thereof. As I said, I don't think the A330 is done or will stop at 60 orders, but with a nearly four-year downward trend in orders (I believe 26 cancellations and five new, with net -21), and positive sales for the 767 (even without fedex it still would post more positive ground than the A330) and the 777 which should be subject to the same 'new-build freighter' trends, I think it's fair to question where it's lost sales are going...and the answer seems to be one of three places:

1) 777Fs
2) 767Fs
3) 767 P2Fs

Again, I'm not saying it won't sell, I'm not saying that it's a bad plane, but I do think it's a failure of analysis to only consider one end of the performance window as a factor, when I believe the A330 is getting pinched on both ends.
Regards! JDief
 
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RE: Why Is The A332F Selling So Badly?

Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:36 pm

Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 15):

I'd go along with that, didnt one of the lessors recently convert some of their A332F orders to pax A330s as they are more in demand and get better rates.

You have to give some historical context to the A330F. It was launched with an order in 2007 which was before the market crash, a time when fuel was expensive, and when the 787 was not as delayed as it eventually would be. When the bottom fell out of the market, fuel prices fell, struggling passenger airlines parked planes, and 787 delays helped support the A330 market it all placed negative pressure on the A330F.
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RE: Why Is The A332F Selling So Badly?

Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:50 am

Do you folks on this forum really believe that passenger demand for the A332 has forced Airbus to just toss the A332F aside or prevent potential sales? Be serious! The A332 has been selling quite well for the past several years. Manufacturers always make provisions within their production line plans to assign a flexible choice. They also block slots so that they can offer a new potential customer a closer delivery spot. For example, when Southwest orders say 300 737Max air frames, that does not mean they get delivery slots 1-300. A manufacturer would never do this. It is no different for the 333/332F program. If anything, I bet Airbus WOULD prioritize a 332F delivery position so that the aircraft gets more exposure as an in-service type to attract other potential freight operators.
 
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RE: Why Is The A332F Selling So Badly?

Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:58 am

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 35):
Its ridiculous to compare the A330 to the 777, as for the rest of it - Put simply 111 sales in 19 years, compared to 60 in 5, it speaks for its self.

Check your facts. The 777F program was launched less than 7 years ago, May 2005, not 19 years.
http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2005/q2/nr_050524g.html
 
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rotating14
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RE: Why Is The A332F Selling So Badly?

Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:36 am

Hhmnmm ........... can anybody supply any additional information about the A359?? Is it just a pipe dream or something worth the effort of discussion. Seems as though the A330 is a victim of its own partial success. Boeing has it (the freighter segment) pinned. Airbus has one option with its new freighter but Boeing has p2f versions of the 757 767 and 747. Therechas to be a WELL defined reason why Airbus has swung a bat at the conversion market. Who really knows?!?!?! Then you have the all cargo builds of the 747 767 & 777. The A330 will sell but not as well as the other three freighter lines Boeing offers are still churning out and converting frames.
 
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rotating14
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RE: Why Is The A332F Selling So Badly?

Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:05 am

*** sorry for the grammatical error ***

I meant to say that there has to be a reason why Airbus has NOT swung a bat at the p2f segment.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Why Is The A332F Selling So Badly?

Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:30 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 39):
Check your facts. The 777F program was launched less than 7 years ago, May 2005, not 19 years.

He was comparing the A330F to the 767F, not the 777F.

Quoting crownvic (Reply 38):
Do you folks on this forum really believe that passenger demand for the A332 has forced Airbus to just toss the A332F aside or prevent potential sales? Be serious!

Plenty of people have been serious and explained a number of reasons why A330F sales are where they are. That you seem not to believe them is your choice.

The fact is, A330F sales are pretty solid when you consider how long it's been on sale.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
Daysleeper
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RE: Why Is The A332F Selling So Badly?

Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:06 am

Quoting jtdieffen (Reply 36):
How is it any more ridiculous than comparing the 767 to the A330, which you have done several times? In terms of payload going up from 767 to A330 to 777, the increments are very similarly sized,

My understanding from various sources is that package operators such as FedEx, UPS, DHL etc tend to be volume limited due to the relatively low weight density of packaged freight. Considering they are the main customer for these jets then it’s logical to use that metric as a comparison. But ignoring that, since 2007 the 777F has only received 14 more orders than the A330, not exactly a significant amount.

Quoting jtdieffen (Reply 36):
but with a nearly four-year downward trend in orders (I believe 26 cancellations and five new, with net -21), and positive sales for the 767 (even without fedex it still would post more positive ground than the A330) and the 777 which should be subject to the same 'new-build freighter' trends, I think it's fair to question where it's lost sales are going...and the answer seems to be one of three places

Two orders; One for FedEx which has already been discussed and one for Azerbaijan Airlines. In regards to the downward trend, after its 1993 launch the 767 didnt receive another order until 1997 - 4 years. Perhaps thats just the way the freighter market works?

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 39):

Check your facts. The 777F program was launched less than 7 years ago, May 2005, not 19 years.
http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/....html

Which would be relevant if I were discussing the 777F.
 
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par13del
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RE: Why Is The A332F Selling So Badly?

Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:17 am

Quoting crownvic (Reply 38):
Do you folks on this forum really believe that passenger demand for the A332 has forced Airbus to just toss the A332F aside or prevent potential sales?

Well, Airbus had orders for the A380 and the A380F, and due to problems getting the A380 pax version into service they delayed the entry of the A380F by a significant amount of time that two USA carriers - FedEx and UPS - who had a/c on order were forced to cancel.
In my read no one is saying Airbus is tossing the A330F aside, what folks are trying to do is to answer the OP's question, one suggestion is that the demand for the pax version which is produced from the same line is resulting in later and later delivery slots for the cargo version. Since the pax version has higher purchase cost and margins to Airbus, if that is what they are doing their investors would rightly support more resources being spent where there is higher return.

Now my speculation, if Airbus had continued to build the line in the USA despite loosing the tanker contract early delivery of A330F should boost orders, after all, the need to minimize currency exposure was not created by the US Airforce need for a tanker.
 
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InsideMan
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RE: Why Is The A332F Selling So Badly?

Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:22 pm

you can't look only at A330F sales without looking at A330-200 and A330-300 pax sales. The line is the same and production is limited. If you can make a better margin with any of the variants, why give it way for less than that, even if it means "few" A330F sales. Price is the key, not the slot by itself.
The situation for the 767 is very different, since any 767F sold is not one less 767 pax available...
 
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Stitch
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RE: Why Is The A332F Selling So Badly?

Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:50 pm

Quoting crownvic (Reply 38):
Do you folks on this forum really believe that passenger demand for the A332 has forced Airbus to just toss the A332F aside or prevent potential sales? Be serious!

We believe it because Airbus have publicly stated so.

But hey, they just make the darn things, so why should we take their word for it?  
Quoting rotating14 (Reply 41):
I meant to say that there has to be a reason why Airbus has NOT swung a bat at the p2f segment.

Lack of feed stock.

In terms of A330 passenger models in service today, the only ones that are "cheap" to buy are the early low gross weight A330-300 models (those with MTOWs of 184t and 205t), which can be had for the mid-20 million mark. When at MZFW, however, you can only load between 20t and 30t of fuel, which is about 25% to 40% of available fuel volume. So I expect range would be quite poor, making it usable only for "shuttle" missions currently undertaken by small narrowbody planes like the 727-200F or 737-300SF.

You'd be better off buying a used A300-600RF. The value is about the same, but the A300-600RF is already a freighter, whereas an A330-300's conversion price can be as much as half the purchase price.
 
FX1816
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RE: Why Is The A332F Selling So Badly?

Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:23 pm

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 43):
Two orders; One for FedEx which has already been discussed and one for Azerbaijan Airlines. In regards to the downward trend, after its 1993 launch the 767 didnt receive another order until 1997 - 4 years. Perhaps thats just the way the freighter market works?

Take into account however, that in the 1990's it was much cheaper and easier to acquire older DC-10's and DC-8's for cargo operations. So yes the 767F was launched years ago and UPS was one of the only carriers to purchase it new early on. Look at what went on in the 1990's just with the US cargo carriers:

FedEx- MD10's, MD11's, A310's (Did acquire new A306's)
Airborne Express- 762's
Emery- DC-8's and DC-10's
Kalitta/American Intl.- 741's, 742's and L1011s
Fine Air- operated old DC-8-50's
Arrow Air- DC-8's

Just to name a few, there was no real demand for new freighters back in the 1990's and even the early 2000's. It would have been much harder for a cargo company in the US to compete with a bunch of new aircraft, hence we didn't see many orders for new aircraft.

FX1816
 
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RE: Why Is The A332F Selling So Badly?

Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:19 pm

From my understanding, the A332F is an ideal DC-10F and DC-8F replacement. From what I read, It looked like Arrow Air was looking to replace their DC-10s with A332Fs, but then they went bankrupt, and now they are out of business, so their goes a potential A3332F order.
 
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RE: Why Is The A332F Selling So Badly?

Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:42 pm

Quoting InsideMan (Reply 45):

For every P2F A330 conversion you are creating demand for a replacement passenger aircraft in the same segment. At this point of time and when considering the time frame to bring a P2F program to market such a program could well be handing 787 orders to Boeing on a plate.

The A330 freighter is a relatively new aircraft. Id suggest this is more about jockeying for position rather than the failure of the aircraft.