Gonzalo
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AA Fleet Use In South American Routes

Sun Feb 05, 2012 7:45 pm

Hello, please forgive me if this issue has been discussed before, I wasn't able to find a thread that match my searching key words. A couple of days ago my flight out of SCL suffered a long delay, and I spent almost 8 hours in the airport waiting for my aircraft. I arrived at the airport around mid day, and left SCL around 8 PM. All that time, there were three AA 767's parked on the taxiway close to the fire brigade, at one side of the 17L. It is usual to see two or three AA 767's spending the whole day in that position, with all the doors open, waiting for the flights at night.
I was wondering, how this planes are not being used for a tag-on to EZE, MVD, or even Brazil to improve the utilization of the fleet ? Or, why not change the times of arrival/departure for a shorter stop between flights? ... An aircraft on the ground is an aircraft loosing money, and having 3 planes parked twelve hours between flights doesn't look like a very smart move for an airline that is currently under Chapter 11...
Any explanations for this ??
Thanks in advance!!

Rgds.

G.
Gear Up!!: DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20-21 / B732 / B763 / B789
 
roseflyer
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RE: AA Fleet Use In South American Routes

Sun Feb 05, 2012 7:55 pm

Yields are higher on overnight flights to scl eze gru etc. Daylight flights don't offer connections and are not preferred by high revenue passengers. This is common on long north south flights. Flying a tag on is more likely to lose money.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
ftornik
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RE: AA Fleet Use In South American Routes

Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:03 pm

Gonzalo,

I don't think so. This has been the situation at SCL and other South American airports for years. The fact is that 5th freedom flights such as SCL-MVD or SCL-EZE would probably not make much money as they would be completing with LAN flights and would require another crew to operate the domestic segment. AC operated YYZ-GRU-EZE for a number of years as a way to try to get better use out of the plane. It never carried much GRU-EZE traffic but required 3 crews, one for YYZ-GRU, one for GRU-EZE-GRU and one for GRU-YYZ. Air Canada now flies YYZ-GRU and YYZ-SCL-EZE.

By the way the idea of aircraft spending the whole day on the ground isn't new QF has been doing it at LHR for years. The Aussie flights arrive in the morning and depart in the late evening.

Paul
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: AA Fleet Use In South American Routes

Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:09 pm

This actually is discussed every few weeks or so, but no worries. Plain and simply, the costs associated with parking the aircraft on the ground (and lowering the utilization rate) are outweighed by the benefits of timing the flights with late night departures and early morning arrivals, both northbound and southbound.

Revenue performance on Latin American flights, especially for AA, continues to be strong so there is no reason for them to tamper with the current schedules. The formula for using daytime flights simply does not bring in the same high-yielding results, with the exception of routes such as MIAEZE or MIAGRU where the O&D is very high.

Currently, AA flies 10x weekly MIASCL and a daily DFWSCL flight. For a brief period, AA flew DFWSCL 10x but it has since been reverted to a daily flight.

Previously, I know AA used to operate tag-ons between GRU and GIG, as well as EZE and MVD. However, GIG and MVD now receive dedicated services from AA's hubs at DFW, JFK and MIA.
confidence is silent. insecurities are loud.
 
flymia
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RE: AA Fleet Use In South American Routes

Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:10 pm

This has been the way airlines all around the world do North-South-North flights. There are some daylight flights from and to MIA but the money is in premium passengers and cargo both prefer the red eye flights much more. I am sure AA and other airlines have looked into seeing what they can do with the planes, given they never done anything else much it must be the best way. AA used to fly EZE-MVD, but since AA now does MIA-MVD that flight has not been needed. Doing tag flights would require more employees at the airport, extra set of pilots and flight attendants too.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
C010T3
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RE: AA Fleet Use In South American Routes

Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:31 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):
It is usual to see two or three AA 767's spending the whole day in that position, with all the doors open, waiting for the flights at night.
I was wondering, how this planes are not being used for a tag-on to EZE, MVD, or even Brazil to improve the utilization of the fleet ?

Unless AA sees an opportunity to launch an entire South American operation with flights around the subcontinent, the tag-on flights wouldn't make money. You have to consider that while there are 2 or 3 frames at SCL, there are also 3 at GIG, 1 at MVD, 4 at EZE and 6 at GRU.
 
Gonzalo
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RE: AA Fleet Use In South American Routes

Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:19 pm

Quoting ftornik (Reply 2):
Air Canada now flies YYZ-GRU and YYZ-SCL-EZE.

Exactly, precisely when I heard the boarding call for this flight AC SCL- EZE I started to think about the three planes of AA parked in the taxiway. I saw the line to board the AC aircraft, it was a 777, and I guess if AC can compete and get a decent LF with a 777, why AA can get similar numbers to fill a 763 with a decent LF and get some yields from at least one of the aircraft ?...In any case, I see the logic of all your explanations, many thanks to all !!

Rgds.

G.
Gear Up!!: DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20-21 / B732 / B763 / B789
 
SCL767
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RE: AA Fleet Use In South American Routes

Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:36 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):
It is usual to see two or three AA 767's spending the whole day in that position, with all the doors open, waiting for the flights at night.

It has been like that for years:


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Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 6):
why AA can get similar numbers to fill a 763 with a decent LF and get some yields from at least one of the aircraft ?...In any case, I see the logic of all your explanations, many thanks to all !!

Also, most international carriers have code-share and interline agreements in place with South American carriers in order to increase their yields on certain routes with-out having to operate tag-on flights. Plus, AA benefits from operating into SCL since it's a oneworld hub.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: AA Fleet Use In South American Routes

Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:16 am

Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):

Nothing unique to AA. It's just how the traffic flow wants to fly. Looking at Atlanta as an example, ATL- SCL departs at 2150 arriving at 0920 the next morning and sits until 2215 that night departing for Atlanta arriving at 0600 the next day so all in all the a/c is out of base for almost 3 days to cover this single route. Its the same for EZE, GRU, GIG, and BSB.
What gets measured gets done.
 
diesel33
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RE: AA Fleet Use In South American Routes

Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:46 am

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 8):
Looking at Atlanta as an example, ATL- SCL departs at 2150 arriving at 0920 the next morning and sits until 2215 that night departing for Atlanta arriving at 0600 the next day so all in all the a/c is out of base for almost 3 days to cover this single route.

Almost 3 days? It's barely 1.5 days considering it's scheduled to be out of base for 32 hours and 10 minutes...

[Edited 2012-02-05 20:48:16]
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: AA Fleet Use In South American Routes

Mon Feb 06, 2012 5:53 am

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 6):
Exactly, precisely when I heard the boarding call for this flight AC SCL- EZE I started to think about the three planes of AA parked in the taxiway. I saw the line to board the AC aircraft, it was a 777, and I guess if AC can compete and get a decent LF with a 777, why AA can get similar numbers to fill a 763 with a decent LF and get some yields from at least one of the aircraft ?...In any case, I see the logic of all your explanations, many thanks to all !!

The situation is a bit different for AC compared to US carriers. For Air Canada, its a better use of their resources to operate EZE as a tag-on from SCL. A few years back, AC would try splitting their SCL and EZE flights into separate, dedicated 763 services during the IATA Winter months, when it was high season in Latin America.

However, it seems like AC has reverted back to their original strategy of bundling the two markets together into a single flight year-round, but instead upgrades the aircraft to a 77W in the high season, which makes sense. The commercial ties between Canada and Chile are stronger than they are between Canada and Argentina, and likely the yields on the dedicated YYZ-EZE flights may not have been compelling enough to let it stand on its own (given that it required more than one aircraft).

Whereas, in the US, there is enough demand to sustain dedicated service between several US points and cities in deep South America without the need for tag-ons. For Air Canada, the 77W takes care of cargo and passenger needs quite adequately utilizing one flight and two frames.
confidence is silent. insecurities are loud.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: AA Fleet Use In South American Routes

Mon Feb 06, 2012 6:17 am

Quoting Diesel33 (Reply 9):
Almost 3 days? It's barely 1.5 days considering it's scheduled to be out of base for 32 hours and 10 minutes...

You're absolutely right as far as actual hours. I was more focusing on "out of the operation" would have been a better term. Arriving at 6 in the morning, it then has to sit until at least the afternoon to turn a European destination or even longer if it goes back to South America.
What gets measured gets done.
 
ptugarin
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RE: AA Fleet Use In South American Routes

Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:21 pm

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 11):
it then has to sit until at least the afternoon to turn a European destination or even longer if it goes back to South America.

A 777 can be re-positioned for a flight to Asia in the morning.
 
brilondon
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RE: AA Fleet Use In South American Routes

Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:11 pm

Quoting ftornik (Reply 2):
By the way the idea of aircraft spending the whole day on the ground isn't new QF has been doing it at LHR for years. The Aussie flights arrive in the morning and depart in the late evening.

QF is not alone in parking for the day as SA also does it at LHR.
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jfk777
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RE: AA Fleet Use In South American Routes

Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:24 pm

The AA 777 and 767 fleet to Latin America do what they do because it works, if flying back to Miami from Santiago and Buenos Aires in the morning were profitable they would. This "planes get a tan all day" In SCL, EZe and GRU happens all over the world. IF happens to Johannesberg too, all the 777, A380 and 744 from LHR, CDG, FRA, ZRH, AMS, MUC and others take the day off too. The same thing happens northbound, the 2 A340's from South African Air spend all day getting rained on at LHR.
 
delawareusa
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RE: AA Fleet Use In South American Routes

Mon Feb 06, 2012 6:59 pm

For the 777 for AMR and UA they often do Asian after the South American flight. So for 4 days they have about 50 hours of flying. Not bad utilization.
 
DesertAir
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RE: AA Fleet Use In South American Routes

Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:34 am

Two summers ago I flew from MIA to Quito, Ecuador on 757s in F. They had two flights a day, one arriving in the evening and departing early morning and another arrive mid day and departing in the early afternoon.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: AA Fleet Use In South American Routes

Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:38 am

Quoting ptugarin (Reply 12):

Delta does not operate any tripple 7s to deep South America...

All equipment are on 763ERs or 764s all of which operate TATL from the hubs and not to Asia. Like I said, when they return to the US in the early AM they usually sit until that afternoon..
What gets measured gets done.
 
us330
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RE: AA Fleet Use In South American Routes

Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:42 am

Quoting delawareusa (Reply 15):
For the 777 for AMR and UA they often do Asian after the South American flight

The SCL-DFW 763 regularly turns around as AA 123 DFW-HNL, so the aircraft is only on the ground at DFW for about 4 hours or so. AA's 777s also arrive back from deep south america into DFW with plenty of time to be turned around for the NRT flights.
 
flymia
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RE: AA Fleet Use In South American Routes

Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:57 am

Quoting DesertAir (Reply 16):

Quito is a shorter flight compared to SCL Or EZE.

Also when the plane goes back to DFW or MIA they get rotated on other flights that morning or afternoon. A 777 can arrive in MIA in the morning and head to LAX and co,e back for a flight to EZE in the evening or head over to NRT from LAX etc.. Most of the time the resting during the day occurs only in South America. South America is o e of AA's few bright spots so what they do obviously works there.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
ftornik
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RE: AA Fleet Use In South American Routes

Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:54 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 14):
The AA 777 and 767 fleet to Latin America do what they do because it works, if flying back to Miami from Santiago and Buenos Aires in the morning were profitable they would. This "planes get a tan all day" In SCL, EZe and GRU happens all over the world. IF happens to Johannesberg too, all the 777, A380 and 744 from LHR, CDG, FRA, ZRH, AMS, MUC and others take the day off too. The same thing happens northbound, the 2 A340's from South African Air spend all day getting rained on at LHR.

It's really too bad. Between South Africa, deep South America, Australia-Europe there are probably dozens of planes sitting idle, and airlines are typically challenged to find worthwhile economic opportunities for this aircraft that doesn't distract from the need to return to base at a profitable time. One of the more creative was between Gulf Air and TWA in the late 1980s.

Every evening Gulf Air L1011 Tristar used to arrive in London from the Middle East and wait overnight before returning home. At the same time, TWA needed extra aircraft to serve its London - New York route. The two carriers reached a very innovative arrangement which saw the jet fly from the Middle East to London as a Gulf Air flight, and then on to New York as a TWA flight before returning home via London. This agreement was essentially a Day - to - Day Dry Lease in the sense that only Gulf Air aircraft were used, but both sides benefitted. TWA got the inexpensive use of an otherwise - idle aircraft and Gulf Air managed to avoid, in part, the effects of Time zones on international airlines. Of equal or greater importance however, Gulf Air got improved access to New York, and was highlighted in some of TWA's promotions. Similarly, TWA through a 'Blocked - Space' arrangement with Gulf Air covering the London - Middle East sector, was able to offer 'same-plane' round-trip service between the Middle East and New York.

It's one of the very few cases I am aware of where an airline has managed to profit from this type of situation.
 
jfk777
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RE: AA Fleet Use In South American Routes

Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:59 pm

Quoting ftornik (Reply 20):
Every evening Gulf Air L1011 Tristar used to arrive in London from the Middle East and wait overnight before returning home. At the same time, TWA needed extra aircraft to serve its London - New York route. The two carriers reached a very innovative arrangement which saw the jet fly from the Middle East to London as a Gulf Air flight, and then on to New York as a TWA flight before returning home via London. This agreement was essentially a Day - to - Day Dry Lease in the sense that only Gulf Air aircraft were used, but both sides benefitted. TWA got the inexpensive use of an otherwise - idle aircraft and Gulf Air managed to avoid, in part, the effects of Time zones on international airlines. Of equal or greater importance however, Gulf Air got improved access to New York, and was highlighted in some of TWA's promotions. Similarly, TWA through a 'Blocked - Space' arrangement with Gulf Air covering the London - Middle East sector, was able to offer 'same-plane' round-trip service between the Middle East and New York.

It's one of the very few cases I am aware of where an airline has managed to profit from this type of situation

This type of arrangement was more typical in 1970's, BA used to fly an Air New Zealand Dc-10-30 from LAX to LHR a day or 2 a week when ANZ had it lying at LAX. It may have been used from LHR to MIA to LHR before back to LAX.

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