washingtonian
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Could United Ever Take Over Concourse A/B At IAD?

Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:21 pm

Instead of building a new permanent midfield concourse just for United at Dulles, could MWAA just move United into the current midfield concourse (A/B) and build a new C for all the other carriers at Dulles? This would make sense for many reasons: No need to deal with the "low A" regional concourse since United would just remain there, no need to extend the aeroTrain in order to build out a full-length C/D midfield concourse, the current A/B is too large for the amount of carriers at Dulles but would be perfect for United's operation. A new concourse built on top of the already-existing C aeroTrain station could be large enough just to accomodate the evening rush at Dulles (and smaller than what United would require if they built their own concourse).

The only thing that would need to be modified at A/B would be to put in an FIS facility. Otherwise very little would need to change. It has an excellent mix of domestic mainline, international, and regional gates.

Of all the potential solutions floating around, this is probably the most cost-effective for all of the parties involved. Thoughts?

[Edited 2012-02-06 12:22:44]
 
gigneil
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RE: Could United Ever Take Over Concourse A/B At IAD?

Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:30 pm

I'd think that if they were gonna do that, they would have  

United probably will want a totally custom concourse. And I think they can afford to do it.

NS
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Could United Ever Take Over Concourse A/B At IAD?

Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:54 pm

I think IAD still envisions enormous growth. It's hard to say if that growth will happen in the era of federal government belt-tightening and increasing bias toward city living, but building a stub terminal C would not allow for much growth. The full-length C/D is, believe it or not, only one part of an enormous master plan that would result in an airport about the size of ATL.

Also, there's this:

Quoting gigneil (Reply 1):
United probably will want a totally custom concourse.

UA knows it did the right thing with Terminal 1 at ORD. I'm sure it would love a similar marvel here.
 
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United787
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RE: Could United Ever Take Over Concourse A/B At IAD?

Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:23 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 2):

UA knows it did the right thing with Terminal 1 at ORD. I'm sure it would love a similar marvel here.

Agreed although with a little more waiting space at the gates...
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: Could United Ever Take Over Concourse A/B At IAD?

Mon Feb 06, 2012 10:13 pm

Quoting washingtonian (Thread starter):
Instead of building a new permanent midfield concourse just for United at Dulles, could MWAA just move United into the current midfield concourse (A/B) and build a new C for all the other carriers at Dulles? This would make sense for many reasons: No need to deal with the "low A" regional concourse since United would just remain there, no need to extend the aeroTrain in order to build out a full-length C/D midfield concourse, the current A/B is too large for the amount of carriers at Dulles but would be perfect for United's operation. A new concourse built on top of the already-existing C aeroTrain station could be large enough just to accomodate the evening rush at Dulles (and smaller than what United would require if they built their own concourse).


MWAA has **two** teacher's pets at Dulles -- not one.

One is UA which has the entire C/D concourse. The other is AF which gets anything it asks for -- in as much as Dulles is its highest-yielding station in North America.

If AF wants itself, KL, DL, and the rest of Skyteam in A/B, then that's the way it will be .   
 
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RE: Could United Ever Take Over Concourse A/B At IAD?

Mon Feb 06, 2012 10:45 pm

Quoting gigneil (Reply 1):
United probably will want a totally custom concourse. And I think they can afford to do it.

In a perfect world, I'm sure they would want a full linear concourse including RJ gates with AeroTrain stops at both ends. Whether they along with MWAA can afford this is another story...

I'm a lot more optimistic than I was a year ago though. With United adding service at Dulles, it's becoming clear that they intend to grow it to complement Newark. This probably means that more and more international cities that have service to Newark will get service to Dulles. Just like Delta with New York and Atlanta.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 2):

I think IAD still envisions enormous growth.
Quoting seabosdca (Reply 2):
The full-length C/D is, believe it or not, only one part of an enormous master plan that would result in an airport about the size of ATL.

Yes, in the long, long term. Luckily, unlike most airports, they have almost unlimited room to grow. They could easily tomorrow build the same number of concourses that Atlanta has if they so desired.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 2):
and increasing bias toward city living

I think this will help Dulles. If Tysons Corner becomes the next Arlington, as they are currently planning, then hundreds of thousands of more people will be living in urban areas down the road from Dulles.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 2):
but building a stub terminal C would not allow for much growth.

I disagree. Right now, the gates at Dulles are underused. I think that one of the reasons there has been a lack of a sense of urgent need to build a second permanent concourse is because the A/B terminal is pretty empty for most of the day. Long-term of course they will eventually need more space. But in the next 10 years? Who knows.

Hence my idea for the stub. Use the stub concourse for the international rush and assorted other flights, and use A/B for United's hub. I guess it comes down to whether United is ready to commit $$$ to a custom concourse.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 2):
UA knows it did the right thing with Terminal 1 at ORD. I'm sure it would love a similar marvel here.

Hope so. If United did build a custom C/D at IAD, they would have one of the best terminal lineups in the United States.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Could United Ever Take Over Concourse A/B At IAD?

Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:29 pm

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 5):
If Tysons Corner becomes the next Arlington, as they are currently planning, then hundreds of thousands of more people will be living in urban areas down the road from Dulles.

This is a great point... but it will take awhile before Tysons fills up with residents. Maybe by then UA and MWAA will come up with a plan to build the new C/D.

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 5):
Right now, the gates at Dulles are underused.

But if you replace the current C/D with a stub C, the gates won't be underused anymore. A stub C significantly smaller than the current C/D would have just enough gates to handle the international rush, and no more. And there will surely be some growth in the next 10 years, just not enough to fill three new concourses.

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 4):
The other is AF which gets anything it asks for -- in as much as Dulles is its highest-yielding station in North America.

No airline with one flight a day, even one that prints cash and uses an A380, can possibly have the same amount of clout as a fortress hub operator. At IAD, what UA wants (and wants to pay for), UA will get.
 
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RE: Could United Ever Take Over Concourse A/B At IAD?

Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:36 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 6):
No airline with one flight a day, even one that prints cash and uses an A380, can possibly have the same amount of clout as a fortress hub operator.

I think he was saying that IAD is the biggest money maker for Air France of any of its markets in the US. I don't know if it is but I'm just trying to help clarify the point.
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washingtonian
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RE: Could United Ever Take Over Concourse A/B At IAD?

Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:21 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 6):
This is a great point... but it will take awhile before Tysons fills up with residents. Maybe by then UA and MWAA will come up with a plan to build the new C/D.

Sooner than we realize. The metro opens there in 2013, quite a few developers have announced plans and committed to build there. By 2015, there should be a noticeably larger population there than today. By 2020 and beyond, I have no doubt it will resemble the Rosslyn-Ballston cooridor.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 6):
But if you replace the current C/D with a stub C, the gates won't be underused anymore. A stub C significantly smaller than the current C/D would have just enough gates to handle the international rush, and no more. And there will surely be some growth in the next 10 years, just not enough to fill three new concourses.

In a swap, the A/B gates wouldn't be underused anymore; the new stub C gates would be underused--Until growth happens. Also, a stub C could easily be expanded to a full-length C/D as growth dictates.

I'm all for a custom-built full-length C/D replacement for United. I just don't see it happening anytime soon. I'll never understand why MWAA didn't tunnel the aeroTrain to D (even if they didn't want to operate the physical trains there until a new concourse was built).

A swap with a stub C concourse though would lead to a more efficient allocation of resources, allow the United hub to continue to flourish, and allow for quick, easy future expansion as growth dictates.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 6):
No airline with one flight a day, even one that prints cash and uses an A380, can possibly have the same amount of clout as a fortress hub operator. At IAD, what UA wants (and wants to pay for), UA will get.

Agree 100% Ultimately MWAA and United will have to reach an accommodation, and the plan proposed above is certainly not far-fetched.
 
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RE: Could United Ever Take Over Concourse A/B At IAD?

Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:21 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 6):
No airline with one flight a day, even one that prints cash and uses an A380, can possibly have the same amount of clout as a fortress hub operator. At IAD, what UA wants (and wants to pay for), UA will get.

Then I suspect it will happen about the same time UA redecorates gates 60-88 at LAX
 
hiflyer
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RE: Could United Ever Take Over Concourse A/B At IAD?

Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:09 am

ok first off no customs a/b...all has to be sent to the main terminal for clearing which does not allow a hub operation so end of that.

second UA has just announced a hangar at IAD so growth is forecasted by the company

I would expect a full c/d announcement soon.....details have already been worked out about IAH and ORD and announced.....but your mileage may vary...grin
 
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RE: Could United Ever Take Over Concourse A/B At IAD?

Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:43 am

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 7):
I think he was saying that IAD is the biggest money maker for Air France of any of its markets in the US.

No, he was clearly saying that AF with one flight a day can dictate to IAD that what we want we will get and for the reasons others are stating above that is complete nonsense.
 
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RE: Could United Ever Take Over Concourse A/B At IAD?

Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:23 pm

Quoting hiflyer (Reply 10):
ok first off no customs a/b...all has to be sent to the main terminal for clearing which does not allow a hub operation so end of that.

With all due respect, does anyone read an entire post before commenting? I said this in the original post!! A/B has international gates with sterile areas leading to the people movers; adding an FIS facility in the concourse would not be the most difficult project ever.

Quoting hiflyer (Reply 10):
I would expect a full c/d announcement soon.....details have already been worked out about IAH and ORD and announced.....but your mileage may vary...grin

I hope you are right and that they actually commit the $$ to do it right meaning a full-length C/D concourse with AeroTrain stations at BOTH ends and enough RJ gates to replace the "low A" gates. If they do this along with an FIS facility, United would have the hands-down best international-to-domestic connecting hub in the Northeast.
 
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RE: Could United Ever Take Over Concourse A/B At IAD?

Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:35 pm

When the B concourse was initially built MWAA proposed to United that if they wanted to move there they would have first chance to since they are the primary carrier at IAD. United turned down the offer as it was more expensive to lease than what they were paying at C/D. Years later after B was complete and all the other carriers moved into it, United asked MWAA to build them a new terminal. MWAA showed them the cost and United was floored by the price tag and asked to move into the B terminal. MWAA basically told them that they already had their chance to move and declined so they are now stuck in C/D. United had the oppertunity to move in and declined, now they are regretting it and probably wont build a terminal at IAD for a very long time.

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kgaiflyer
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RE: Could United Ever Take Over Concourse A/B At IAD?

Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:24 pm

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 12):
and that they actually commit the $$ to do it right meaning a full-length C/D concourse with AeroTrain stations at BOTH ends

And perhaps an Aerotrain station that's actually in the concourse rather than half a mile away and connected by walkways and tunnels (though I admit I haven't been so healthy in years   ).
 
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RE: Could United Ever Take Over Concourse A/B At IAD?

Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:41 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 9):
Then I suspect it will happen about the same time UA redecorates gates 60-88 at LAX

UA redecorated LAX in the late 1990s -- circa 1997ish

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 5):
Right now, the gates at Dulles are underused. I think that one of the reasons there has been a lack of a sense of urgent need to build a second permanent concourse is because the A/B terminal is pretty empty for most of the day.

That is most definitately true. UA just repainted and rebranded IAD (looks pretty OK actually, I was just there) so if anything they are probably going to concentrate on keeping service in C/D for as long as they can -- without having to spend money on expansion.

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 5):
I'm a lot more optimistic than I was a year ago though. With United adding service at Dulles, it's becoming clear that they intend to grow it to complement Newark. This probably means that more and more international cities that have service to Newark will get service to Dulles. Just like Delta with New York and Atlanta.

In the coming years I'll bet IAD will have more flights daily than EWR.
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RE: Could United Ever Take Over Concourse A/B At IAD?

Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:05 pm

Quoting flyiguy (Reply 13):
United turned down the offer as it was more expensive to lease than what they were paying at C/D

Yup. Although to be fair, United at that time probably had service to London, Paris, Amsterdam, Brussels, and maybe Milan? Not nearly as large of a global operation as they have today with non-stop service to Asia, South America, Africa, and the Middle East (plus a lot more to Europe). They have more than doubled their number of international destinations from Dulles in the last few years. I don't particularly blame them for not jumping on A/B in the late 90s when they still had a robust international presence at JFK and MIA and were not as concentrated at Dulles as they become in the years leading up to the merger.

Quoting flyiguy (Reply 13):
United had the oppertunity to move in and declined, now they are regretting it and probably wont build a terminal at IAD for a very long time.

I don't know about that. Time is on the side of all of us who would like to see a new terminal for United at Dulles...Temporary trailers can't last forever! If for no other reason than competitive disadvantage...

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 14):
And perhaps an Aerotrain station that's actually in the concourse rather than half a mile away and connected by walkways and tunnels

Whatever new concourse they do build at Dulles will have the C aerotrain station directly underneath it. And presumably the D one if they tunnel out, although you never know with MWAA  
Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 15):
That is most definitately true. UA just repainted and rebranded IAD (looks pretty OK actually, I was just there) so if anything they are probably going to concentrate on keeping service in C/D for as long as they can -- without having to spend money on expansion.

That's why I think my idea in the original post is pretty good. Dulles gets a smallish new concourse that actually meets current demand levels (and allows for quick future growth in a planned fashion), and United gets a true "hub" operation in one linear, modern concourse. Cheaper for all the parties involved. Heck, there are probably enough gates in A/B to accomodate United during the PM rush AND most if not all of their Star Alliance partners (so Lufthansa, for example, wouldn't have to move their new lounges)
 
working2gether
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RE: Could United Ever Take Over Concourse A/B At IAD?

Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:12 pm

I think the long term plan for IAD and the new C/D Concourse is for a concourse the same length as the current C/D Concourse with international gates in the middle with domestic and regional gates along the ends. And running through the middle of the concourse would be a FIS facility and a separate AeroTrain station that connects directly to IAB (this is years away).

Why wouldn't United just use the current C/D Concourse until the new Concourse gets built. They would get a brand new and custom Concourse just for them.

I agree that they could move to the A/B Concourse, but it just doesn't seem logical.

I know plenty of others will disagree but those are just my thoughts.
 
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RE: Could United Ever Take Over Concourse A/B At IAD?

Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:17 pm

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 15):
In the coming years I'll bet IAD will have more flights daily than EWR.

I can almost gurantee not in terms of mainline flying, UA has over 200 mainline flights from EWR (about 215) and less than 100 (95 or so) from IAD. UA would have to more than double their number of mainline flights from IAD, that's not happening. If your talking regional aircraft then IAD already has more of those than EWR.

EWR
215 ML
203 R
total:418

IAD
95 ML
252 R
total:347

The huge dispartiy in mainline between EWR and IAD means that IAD may very well surpass EWR in terms of daily flights, thanks to all those regional jets, but the mainline advantage EWR enjoys means it's unlikely IAD could ever surpass EWR in terms of passengers handled per year.
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kgaiflyer
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RE: Could United Ever Take Over Concourse A/B At IAD?

Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:17 pm

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 15):
UA redecorated LAX in the late 1990s -- circa 1997ish

Okay !

So that's when gates 80-88 got their current funky 50's decor  
 
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RE: Could United Ever Take Over Concourse A/B At IAD?

Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:20 pm

Quoting working2gether (Reply 17):
I think the long term plan for IAD and the new C/D Concourse is for a concourse the same length as the current C/D Concourse with international gates in the middle with domestic and regional gates along the ends.

Sure, but this is expensive. The cost factor is the primary reason why United didn't start it anytime in the past decade. We haven't really seen huge terminal projects in this country lately. American's T8 at JFK was cut back in size, jetBlue's T5 at JFK was built in a very utilitarian manner. A new C/D at IAD should resemble the Delta terminal at DTW, but it's expensive as heck to build.

Quoting working2gether (Reply 17):
And running through the middle of the concourse would be a FIS facility and a separate AeroTrain station that connects directly to IAB (this is years away).

Years away is an understatement. Probably not in our lifetimes is more like it. Though I agree that it makes sense in building a new C/D for MWAA to at least design plans so that a future connection to the IAB can be built at a later time. Dulles can't function indefinitely with people movers transporting the majority of international passengers to FIS....But that is a whole separate topic!

Quoting working2gether (Reply 17):
I agree that they could move to the A/B Concourse, but it just doesn't seem logical.
Quoting working2gether (Reply 17):
Why wouldn't United just use the current C/D Concourse until the new Concourse gets built.

Building a new full-length C/D, along with tunnelling for another aeroTrain station, will cost hundreds of millions of dollars. United and MWAA might not want to spend that when they have a cheaper potential solution that I outlined in the original post.
 
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RE: Could United Ever Take Over Concourse A/B At IAD?

Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:22 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 18):
, but the mainline advantage EWR enjoys means it's unlikely IAD could ever

It makes perfect sense that EWR has a mainline advantage over IAD though. EWR has the best elements of JFK and LGA in one airport...
 
working2gether
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RE: Could United Ever Take Over Concourse A/B At IAD?

Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:30 pm

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 20):
Building a new full-length C/D, along with tunnelling for another aeroTrain station, will cost hundreds of millions of dollars. United and MWAA might not want to spend that when they have a cheaper potential solution that I outlined in the original post.

Totally agree with you on that part. Personally, having flown out of both the A/B and C/D gates numerous times and having worked at IAD, I don't think the C/D gates are all that bad. Yes transferring from an International to a regional or vice versa is a pain but it can be done.

The C/D may be extremely crowded during the afternoon rush but it's still bearable. You'll always hear people saying how when boarding starts in the C/D gates, you can't walk past because passengers spill out into the walkways between the gates. But in the afternoon rush in the A/B gates, you have the same issue, only it seems better cuz the corridors are wider.

The A/B concourse might be newer and better, but honestly, C/D gates do their jobs just as fine.
 
working2gether
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RE: Could United Ever Take Over Concourse A/B At IAD?

Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:31 pm

Oh and here's a basic design of the new C/D Concourse, if anyone was interested.

http://www.kpf.com/project.asp?R=1&ID=60
 
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RE: Could United Ever Take Over Concourse A/B At IAD?

Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:33 pm

Quoting working2gether (Reply 17):
I agree that they could move to the A/B Concourse, but it just doesn't seem logical.

I know plenty of others will disagree but those are just my thoughts.

This is Washington, yes? Lots of weird s**t happens here every day.

So literally anything can happen at Dulles if the price is right.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Could United Ever Take Over Concourse A/B At IAD?

Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:38 pm

Quoting working2gether (Reply 22):
The A/B concourse might be newer and better, but honestly, C/D gates do their jobs just as fine.

Does it mostly work, in the sense that people get onto their flights? Yes.

Is it a pleasant experience? No. Walking can be very complicated because the narrow corridors are full of people trying to board. Food and drink options are few and unappetizing. The atmosphere is dark, cramped, and institutional. You have the choice of the people mover or a long walk down an unattractive hallway to the AeroTrain station. I don't think UA will want C/D as one of its flagship hubs in the long run, and I think they will make a permanent C/D happen within the next few years.

The AeroTrain connection on the D end will take longer, but having the C end directly above the train will improve the situation considerably.

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 20):
United and MWAA might not want to spend that when they have a cheaper potential solution that I outlined in the original post.

I think a stub C will be just barely big enough to fit the current occupants of A/B (except UAX), and MWAA will need some room for growth before long. I think MWAA will want a full C/D in the relatively near term, and if it builds one, I think both UA and MWAA will want UA to be the occupant.
 
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RE: Could United Ever Take Over Concourse A/B At IAD?

Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:41 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 19):
So that's when gates 80-88 got their current funky 50's decor

Oh, well I've never been down 80-88. It's only once in a blue moon that United tows an Airbus into that concourse. All the action is from 70-77 (and I guess the ex-CO gates in terminal 6, but that place is a huge dump.)

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 16):
That's why I think my idea in the original post is pretty good. Dulles gets a smallish new concourse that actually meets current demand levels (and allows for quick future growth in a planned fashion), and United gets a true "hub" operation in one linear, modern concourse. Cheaper for all the parties involved. Heck, there are probably enough gates in A/B to accomodate United during the PM rush AND most if not all of their Star Alliance partners (so Lufthansa, for example, wouldn't have to move their new lounges)

Yeah, hopefully that could be the case. I only forsee UA growing at IAD, and with that they are going to need a better terminal. Although I will say that I was flying UA thru IAD in 2008 and then again a few weeks ago, and the difference between now and a few years back is completely noticable. They did a good job.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 18):
I can almost gurantee not in terms of mainline flying, UA has over 200 mainline flights from EWR (about 215) and less than 100 (95 or so) from IAD. UA would have to more than double their number of mainline flights from IAD, that's not happening. If your talking regional aircraft then IAD already has more of those than EWR.

Didn't say anything about IAD having more mainline. I think they will end up having more regional flights solely because EWR can't handle them as well. I would expect Colgan to have a lot more Q400s and Dash 8's based from IAD in the future. Especially with the E135s coming back online and into EWR.
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RE: Could United Ever Take Over Concourse A/B At IAD?

Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:45 pm

Quoting working2gether (Reply 23):
Oh and here's a basic design of the new C/D Concourse, if anyone was interested.

http://www.kpf.com/project.asp?R=1&ID=60[/quote]

"The building will be punctuated at mid-points with nodes for vertical circulation to below-grade Automated People Mover (APM) stations which will link passengers with Concourse B/Tier 1, the Main (Saarinen) Terminal, and on-site parking.".


That would make it look similar to DEN. That's nice
 
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RE: Could United Ever Take Over Concourse A/B At IAD?

Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:49 pm

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 26):
I guess the ex-CO gates in terminal 6, but that place is a huge dump.)

I fly UA and CO about 50 /50 . I agree 100% .
 
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RE: Could United Ever Take Over Concourse A/B At IAD?

Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:12 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 4):
The other is AF which gets anything it asks for -- in as much as Dulles is its highest-yielding station in North America.

IAD is far more important to AF than AF is to IAD. One A380 or 77W landing fee is the same regardless of whether it's full of fare-paying F pax or rubber dog sh*t.  
 
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RE: Could United Ever Take Over Concourse A/B At IAD?

Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:40 pm

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 12):
adding an FIS facility in the concourse would not be the most difficult project ever.

Yup...it would be a long term project to convert...there are no sterile corridors connecting 20 or more gates so all would have to be built on the OUTSIDE of the terminal completely disrupting the facility....plus you still have to have access to the Washington terminating Customs with lounge docks. Don't mention the extensive ground floor remodel and the eviction of numerous tennants now in there to support existing and where would they go?

The current walk to the C aerotrain station is due to it's location is directly below the planned c/d concourse and use of the mobile lounges was deemed sufficient for the D as most of D was empty at the time of design. However that is changing as well with the increase in UA and associated carrier flights. Do not know the status of the tunnel past B looping to where D is and then back to the C station from the south...started...not started...or what. Obviously that would also have to be included in any c/d rebuild cost and may be what is hanging up progress.
 
D L X
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RE: Could United Ever Take Over Concourse A/B At IAD?

Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:41 pm

Quoting working2gether (Reply 17):
I think the long term plan for IAD and the new C/D Concourse is for a concourse the same length as the current C/D Concourse with international gates in the middle with domestic and regional gates along the ends.

It would save them a lot of money to put the big international jets on the end (closer to the runways) and the little regional jets in the middle.
 
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RE: Could United Ever Take Over Concourse A/B At IAD?

Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:04 pm

Quoting working2gether (Reply 23):
Oh and here's a basic design of the new C/D Concourse, if anyone was interested.

This design is from like a decade ago or so. For what it's worth, when the C aeroTrain station opened 2 years back MWAA hung a poster showing the "future concourse" and it was clearly not full-length.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 25):
The AeroTrain connection on the D end will take longer

You don't think they would built them concurrently? Building the full-length concourse and THEN tunneling sounds like a recipe for disaster!

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 25):
but having the C end directly above the train will improve the situation considerably.

Sure, for those passengers on the C end...They would still have to run the mobile lounges out to the D end.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 25):
I think MWAA will want a full C/D in the relatively near term, and if it builds one, I think both UA and MWAA will want UA to be the occupant.

Fair enough, but as always it's a matter of cost. Moving United to A/B is probably the most cost-efficient solution right now, but you are right that long-term it makes sense to just build a full-length C/D and put United there. In a perfect world with no cost restrictions, a DTW-style terminal would be perfect there for United.

Quoting D L X (Reply 31):

It would save them a lot of money to put the big international jets on the end (closer to the runways) and the little regional jets in the middle.

Hmm, how would that save a lot of money? I would think that if you are talking about fuel burn, the RJs have more turns than the widebodies so it would make sense to have the RJs and domestic mainline jets closer to the runway. Or are you talking about from a terminal-planning perspecitve?
 
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RE: Could United Ever Take Over Concourse A/B At IAD?

Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:57 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 24):
This is Washington, yes? Lots of weird s**t happens here every day.

So literally anything can happen at Dulles if the price is right.

You got that right!

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 29):
IAD is far more important to AF than AF is to IAD. One A380 or 77W landing fee is the same regardless of whether it's full of fare-paying F pax or rubber dog sh*t.

That was my thought - IAD being their highest-yielding NA destination means that IAD gets whatever they want, because AF doesn't want to strangle the golden goose, not the other way around.
 
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RE: Could United Ever Take Over Concourse A/B At IAD?

Tue Feb 07, 2012 6:07 pm

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 32):
Hmm, how would that save a lot of money? I would think that if you are talking about fuel burn, the RJs have more turns than the widebodies so it would make sense to have the RJs and domestic mainline jets closer to the runway.

I am talking about fuel burn.

Delta saved a whole lot of money by moving its big jets to the positions closest to the runways in Atlanta.

An RJ's MTOW is around 70,000 lbs. A 777's MTOW is around 650,000 lbs. That is a massive difference. It would take many many times as many RJ movements as widebody movements to break even.
 
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RE: Could United Ever Take Over Concourse A/B At IAD?

Tue Feb 07, 2012 6:50 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 34):
Delta saved a whole lot of money by moving its big jets to the positions closest to the runways in Atlanta.

An RJ's MTOW is around 70,000 lbs. A 777's MTOW is around 650,000 lbs. That is a massive difference. It would take many many times as many RJ movements as widebody movements to break even.

Very interesting point. For what it's worth, I've always thought that with a full-length C/D replacement, United should put the international gates at the far end close to the FIS facility in the main termal and spread out the regional and mainline domestic gates through the rest. However, to do that would mean the C aeroTrain station would be at the end serving the regional and mainline domestic gates, so once again, it would require tunneling and a D aeroTrain station.
 
capitalflyer
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RE: Could United Ever Take Over Concourse A/B At IAD?

Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:02 am

One minor problem, doesn't C/D have more gates than HiA/B? United wouldn't fit in A/B.

I think a full C/D is what will happen. United will have to pay for all of it, no MWAA support as they will be tapped out with Metro. That said, I think the future of the new UA depends on having a new concourse that can more seamlessly integrate regional operations, as this will be a huge key to their strategy to up profits at EWR by shifting regional flying to IAD. Might be a couple years to get all the shifting sorted out, and then probably we will see a plan to build.
 
gigneil
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RE: Could United Ever Take Over Concourse A/B At IAD?

Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:07 am

I really don't get when people say a government agencies are tapped out.

They can raise money for any project they commit to.

NS
 
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RE: Could United Ever Take Over Concourse A/B At IAD?

Wed Feb 08, 2012 12:33 pm

Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 36):
One minor problem, doesn't C/D have more gates than HiA/B? United wouldn't fit in A/B.

Yes, but not all of C/D is used. In fact, there are many gates in D that are dead and freaky to walk past. I think that United could easily fit in high A/B, especially considernig the availability of remote parking at Dulles.

Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 36):
United will have to pay for all of it

Doubtful. I almost guarantee MWAA will have some role in it. As they should. As part of the project, they will presumably take over the "low A" gates and have all that land to redevelop as they desire.

Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 36):
no MWAA support as they will be tapped out with Metro.

Although in another few years, most of the major D2 projects will be complete. A new C/D is the only thing left that MWAA could focus on!

Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 36):
, as this will be a huge key to their strategy to up profits at EWR by shifting regional flying to IAD

Agree. Although IAD already has a high ratio of regional to mainline flights. But yes, a new C/D has to have a good chunk of it committed to regional flying. Shouldn't really be a problem. It would probably be a pretty awesome concourse split between domestic mainline gates, regional gates, and widebody gates for United and Star partners.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 37):
I really don't get when people say a government agencies are tapped out.

They can raise money for any project they commit to.

I think the problem is the many stupid projects they committed to over the years. And now it's hard(er) to raise money for large-scale infrastructure projects (ironically the same kinds of projects that create jobs and stir the economy)
 
bjorn14
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RE: Could United Ever Take Over Concourse A/B At IAD?

Wed Feb 08, 2012 1:58 pm

A little bit OT but any progress report on the Silver Line to IAD?
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: Could United Ever Take Over Concourse A/B At IAD?

Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:01 pm

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 38):
Yes, but not all of C/D is used. In fact, there are many gates in D that are dead and freaky to walk past. I think that United could easily fit in high A/B, especially considernig the availability of remote parking at Dulles.

They're certainly not wasted.

Having arrived at IAD after midnight many times, I've seen everything but turboprops RON using the upper D gates.
 
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RE: Could United Ever Take Over Concourse A/B At IAD?

Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:08 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 39):
A little bit OT but any progress report on the Silver Line to IAD?

The first half of it is supposed to open in late 2013; it's pretty impressive to drive out towards Dulles and see the elevated tracks already!

There was a proposal floating around a few weeks ago to not even extend the Silver Line to Dulles and to instead build a light-rail monorail type system from one of the other Silver Line stops towards the airport. Of course this was shot down.

See here for more info:
http://greatergreaterwashington.org/...l-to-dulles-saves-more-than-money/

Other than that, not much news since the decision to go with an elevated station attached to the parking garage.
 
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RE: Could United Ever Take Over Concourse A/B At IAD?

Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:23 pm

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 38):
I think the problem is the many stupid projects they committed to over the years. And now it's hard(er) to raise money for large-scale infrastructure projects (ironically the same kinds of projects that create jobs and stir the economy)

What sort of shape is MWAA in for committing themselves to more debt? They already have added billions of dollars in debt for the Aerotrain, security, and customs expansions, plus the new runway, and now billions more for the Silver Line. If UA decides they want a palatial C-D replacement, even a partial one, they might need to underwrite it themselves.

I vote with others, that it's not clear that A-B would fit UA's purposes. A custom-built C terminal, with broader separation between it and A-B (as provided for by the location of the existing C AeroTrain station) would allow a "fatter" building that could more easily hold a spacious customs facility, plus ability to more easily handle ultralarge aircraft as needed. Then leave existing D in place as suggested, and build a connector corridor with moving sidewalk to C.

Any project should probably consist only of as much as UA would be able to finance at the time. Since the new concourse would be a few hundred feet south of the existing building, UA could still use its existing customs facility in C during construction. Though, of course, gates on one side would be unavailable.

I'm still not sure how much international connecting traffic UA is going to move to EWR. But the recent IAD flight additions are encouraging. Dulles is a vastly superior airport to host a connecting hub. Runway layout matters!

But again, it seems to me possible that UA would need to underwrite a new C themselves.

Jim
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working2gether
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RE: Could United Ever Take Over Concourse A/B At IAD?

Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:21 pm

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 42):
with broader separation between it and A-B (as provided for by the location of the existing C AeroTrain station) would allow a "fatter" building

My understanding is that after the new Concourse is built, it would allow enough taxiway room for 2 A380 planes to taxi side by side. So the new Concourse cannot be too much "fatter" to the north side but can go as far as it wants on the South side.
 
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RE: Could United Ever Take Over Concourse A/B At IAD?

Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:33 pm

Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 36):
I think a full C/D is what will happen. United will have to pay for all of it, no MWAA support as they will be tapped out with Metro.
Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 42):
f UA decides they want a palatial C-D replacement, even a partial one, they might need to underwrite it themselves.

I could see UA having to pay for most if not all of a C/D replacement but UA demanding that MWAA pay to extend the AeroTrain to the new D.
 
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RE: Could United Ever Take Over Concourse A/B At IAD?

Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:46 pm

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 42):
If UA decides they want a palatial C-D replacement, even a partial one, they might need to underwrite it themselves.

I just don't see this happening. MWAA has to be involved one way or another, either by paying for the AeroTrain (see united787's pst) or by contributing something. As I said earlier, as part of any C/D construction MWAA is going to get all of the "low A" gates back. These land will likely be used for future extension of the "high A" concourse.

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 42):
I vote with others, that it's not clear that A-B would fit UA's purposes. A custom-built C terminal, with broader separation between it and A-B (as provided for by the location of the existing C AeroTrain station) would allow a "fatter" building that could more easily hold a spacious customs facility, plus ability to more easily handle ultralarge aircraft as needed. Then leave existing D in place as suggested, and build a connector corridor with moving sidewalk to C.

I'm not clear on what you are suggesting. Build a Custom C and then keep the temporary trailer C/D? Is that what you are suggesting?!

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 42):
Since the new concourse would be a few hundred feet south of the existing building, UA could still use its existing customs facility in C during construction.

Why couldn't they keep the customs facility in C open until the new one was complete? I don't see your point....

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 42):
Though, of course, gates on one side would be unavailable.

Nope, the new concourse will be sufficiently south of the current C/D so as to allow no interuptions.

Quoting united787 (Reply 44):

I could see UA having to pay for most if not all of a C/D replacement but UA demanding that MWAA pay to extend the AeroTrain to the new D.

Perhaps. This makes sense. I just still think MWAA would have a great involvement. This is the FINAL project that will make IAD into one of the best airports in the United States. This is it for the next decade or so! I'm sure they will help facilitate it...
 
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RE: Could United Ever Take Over Concourse A/B At IAD?

Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:55 pm

Quoting gigneil (Reply 37):
I really don't get when people say a government agencies are tapped out.

They can raise money for any project they commit to.

Sure they can raise money, but the cost to payback that money will be astronomical. This means very high landing fees, rents, etc and will undermine the profitability of the airlines.

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 42):
They already have added billions of dollars in debt for the Aerotrain, security, and customs expansions, plus the new runway, and now billions more for the Silver Line.

You can't really mix money this way. The funding streams for the Silver Line are completely different than the funding streams for the security, new runway, etc.

Quoting united787 (Reply 44):
I could see UA having to pay for most if not all of a C/D replacement but UA demanding that MWAA pay to extend the AeroTrain to the new D.

Agreed.

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 41):
Other than that, not much news since the decision to go with an elevated station attached to the parking garage.

The big news since then is that the 2nd phase of the Silver Line now has it's funding in place.
 
boilerla
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RE: Could United Ever Take Over Concourse A/B At IAD?

Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:24 pm

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 20):
Building a new full-length C/D, along with tunnelling for another aeroTrain station, will cost hundreds of millions of dollars. United and MWAA might not want to spend that when they have a cheaper potential solution that I outlined in the original post.

Try billions. Last estimate was around $2 billion, which given MWAA's ability to estimate, means $5 billion. And those estimates were given years ago.

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 42):
What sort of shape is MWAA in for committing themselves to more debt? They already have added billions of dollars in debt for the Aerotrain, security, and customs expansions, plus the new runway, and now billions more for the Silver Line. If UA decides they want a palatial C-D replacement, even a partial one, they might need to underwrite it themselves.

Which is why it won't happen. UA is not going to pony billions of dollars on a terminal. Heck, the IAH improvements are being split 50/50 by UA & Houston, and that's a "measly" $250 million each. Plus IAH is helping UA underwrite the cost, and they're adding a $3 tax to all tickets. That's at their largest and busiest hub, not their 4th largest like IAD.

MWAA may not be in shape to take on more debt, but neither is UA. Their CFO has publicly committed the airline to reducing its debt. I like IAD--I fly into it pretty frequently--but I don't see a cost-conscious carrier spending a couple billion on a terminal at their 4th largest hub.

MWAA said that their improvements to C/D will extend the usefulness of the concourse another decade. That means if UA wants something sooner than say 2025, they need to move into B.
 
gigneil
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RE: Could United Ever Take Over Concourse A/B At IAD?

Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:32 pm

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 41):
The first half of it is supposed to open in late 2013; it's pretty impressive to drive out towards Dulles and see the elevated tracks already!

ITS CRAZY. I am so shocked by how fast its moving.

NS
 
bjorn14
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RE: Could United Ever Take Over Concourse A/B At IAD?

Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:37 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 46):
The big news since then is that the 2nd phase of the Silver Line now has it's funding in place.

Great does that mean they can now start at the IAD end and meet in the middle?  
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