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chrisnh
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What Is JAL's 'Plan B' For NRT-BOS?

Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:44 am

Let's say the 787 can't go by April 22, for whatever reason, on the much-ballyhooed NRT-Boston run.

Do they:

Postpone start of service?
Use a 773?
Tag Boston onto another flight, say, NRT-ORD?



[Edited 2012-02-07 18:51:30]
 
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RE: What Is JAL's 'Plan B' For NRT-BOS?

Wed Feb 08, 2012 3:30 am

No accouncement from JAL at the moment.

More than likely a postponement.
Unlike, NH, JAL really isn't flush with extra widebody aircraft at the moment.
Their fleet of 13 773ERs are pretty much accounted for on flying their trunk routes like NRT-LHR, CDG, FRA, JFK, LAX & ORD. They could use the two remaining 773ERs on the NRT-BOS but that means no spare aircraft. Probably not the best option considering it would affect their other main services is something irregular happens.
Then there are the 11 772ERs of which 8 are fitted with crew rests. Three are needed to fly the HND-CDG & SFO runs. The other five fly NRT-BOM, DME & Asia missions and they could take them off those runs as a possibility.

Hopefully, Boeing can get the GE-powered 787 certified and delivered to JAL by end of March. Otherwise, the April 22 start-up will be in jeopardy.
 
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RE: What Is JAL's 'Plan B' For NRT-BOS?

Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:09 am

Postponement seems like the best option, as much as I'd like to see a 787 for the time being. As long as they start the route, I don't care when they do, but I want to see it as soon as possible.
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RE: What Is JAL's 'Plan B' For NRT-BOS?

Wed Feb 08, 2012 1:18 pm

I'm not sure posponment is a great idea considering the amount of publicity that's been unleashed for Boston's first non-stop service to Asia. This route is a huge deal around here. I'm not sure what they would do though but there are options. Has there been a precendent like this before?

Quoting carpethead (Reply 1):
Unlike, NH, JAL really isn't flush with extra widebody aircraft at the moment.

BOS-NRT will start 4x weekly service only. That should allow them to sub for a spare 772/3ER.
 
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RE: What Is JAL's 'Plan B' For NRT-BOS?

Wed Feb 08, 2012 1:24 pm

Well, the selfish side of me wouldn't mind seeing a delay of a few days because I'm scheduled to be at a big Defense/Security trade show in Baltimore from the 22nd through the week!

I've never met the great spotting community at Logan, but I would certainly love to be there for the first JAL 787 if it happens a week or so later than scheduled! Great bunch of people who crank out fabulous photos and astounding videos.
 
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RE: What Is JAL's 'Plan B' For NRT-BOS?

Wed Feb 08, 2012 1:31 pm

A 777-300ER would be too large a plane to send on that run if they plan to start with a 787-8.

I expect they'll use a 777-200ER.
 
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chrisnh
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RE: What Is JAL's 'Plan B' For NRT-BOS?

Wed Feb 08, 2012 1:37 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
A 777-300ER would be too large a plane to send on that run if they plan to start with a 787-8.

I expect they'll use a 777-200ER.

I agree   

The 773 might be OK for a 'tag-on' flight, but then it's not a non-stop anymore. People who've already booked the flights won't like a stop along the way when they didn't expect one.
 
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RE: What Is JAL's 'Plan B' For NRT-BOS?

Wed Feb 08, 2012 3:17 pm

Quoting carpethead (Reply 1):
The other five fly NRT-BOM, DME & Asia missions and they could take them off those runs as a possibility.

I'm assuming BOM and the Asia mission ones can be subbed out for one of the aircraft that don't have crew rests to free a couple of 772s if need be? Or are the non crew rest 772s the domestically configured cattle trucks?
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RE: What Is JAL's 'Plan B' For NRT-BOS?

Wed Feb 08, 2012 3:27 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
A 777-300ER would be too large a plane to send on that run if they plan to start with a 787-8.

No doubt but JL's 773ER's have about the same number of seats as their 772ER's due to the low density configuration of their 773ER's. So what's worse, send a 773ER and sell a bunch of low "introductory" fares just to break even until the 788 is available, or pospone the service and have to rebook or reimburse everyone who has already booked, plus penalties? Don't forget that for the first year JL is getting significant incentives from Massport so the break even point for the route is less than "normal". If capacity is too great there's also the option of operating the route only 5x weekly instead of the planned increase to daily.
 
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RE: What Is JAL's 'Plan B' For NRT-BOS?

Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:12 pm

If JAL amends their plan for this route, about how much advance notice do you all think they are obligated to give...a month?
 
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RE: What Is JAL's 'Plan B' For NRT-BOS?

Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:16 pm

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 9):
If JAL amends their plan for this route, about how much advance notice do you all think they are obligated to give...a month?

They aren't obligated to give any advance notice at all.

As long as they pay the due compensation, they can cancel 5 minutes before scheduled start if they want to.

That would be terrible PR and they would never do that, but it's an option...
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RE: What Is JAL's 'Plan B' For NRT-BOS?

Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:20 pm

Aside from not knowing a 787 from a bottle of milk, Boston Mayor Menino would likely shriek with howls of protest (along the lines of, "How DARE JAL do this to ME!").
 
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RE: What Is JAL's 'Plan B' For NRT-BOS?

Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:44 pm

JAL would probably launch the route with a 77W and then rotate in whatever 777 is available until the 787 can operate the flight. JAL has been waiting to fly to Boston since 1992.
 
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RE: What Is JAL's 'Plan B' For NRT-BOS?

Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:48 pm

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 11):
Aside from not knowing a 787 from a bottle of milk, Boston Mayor Menino would likely shriek with howls of protest (along the lines of, "How DARE JAL do this to ME!").

He'd say that alright, but you'd never really fully understand what came out of Mayor Mumbles mouth!
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RE: What Is JAL's 'Plan B' For NRT-BOS?

Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:28 pm

I would probably agree, most will not know the difference between the 787 and 772, as an armchair CEO i would go that route.
 
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RE: What Is JAL's 'Plan B' For NRT-BOS?

Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:48 pm

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 4):
Well, the selfish side of me wouldn't mind seeing a delay of a few days because I'm scheduled to be at a big Defense/Security trade show in Baltimore from the 22nd through the week!

I've never met the great spotting community at Logan, but I would certainly love to be there for the first JAL 787 if it happens a week or so later than scheduled! Great bunch of people who crank out fabulous photos and astounding videos.

I agree those photos from Boston are some of the best ones on the site IMO. With the flights to Boston so cheap from Baltimore hopefully i can take a day off work to go see her first arrival!
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RE: What Is JAL's 'Plan B' For NRT-BOS?

Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:53 pm

Still hoping for the 787 on 4/22 but who know's what will transpire. Everyone come up and see us there are a multitude of places to spot around Logan. Here's our group
http://www.meetup.com/BostonAirlinerSpotters/
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crAAzy
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RE: What Is JAL's 'Plan B' For NRT-BOS?

Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:03 pm

Given ATI with AA, can AA fly the route with a 767 or 772 until JAL's 787s arrive?
 
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RE: What Is JAL's 'Plan B' For NRT-BOS?

Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:48 pm

Quoting crAAzy (Reply 17):

767 doesn't have the legs. Does AA have any 772s to spare?

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RE: What Is JAL's 'Plan B' For NRT-BOS?

Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:10 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 18):
Does AA have any 772s to spare?

Don't know for sure.
ORD-DEL will be ending so that's two and the first 77Ws will be flying DFW-GRU so there's another one and eventually two more 772s that will become available. However, not sure if they will be needed to replace outgoing 767s on some routes, or if those aircraft have already been allocated to other routes, or if AA has plans to start refurbs on it's 772s once the 77Ws start arriving.

Maybe someone else has more details on aircraft utilization with the schedule changes and declined leases.

I'm thinking the most likely outcome will be JAL postponing the start of the flight.
 
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RE: What Is JAL's 'Plan B' For NRT-BOS?

Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:55 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
A 777-300ER would be too large a plane to send on that run if they plan to start with a 787-8.

What's JL's configuration on the 787-8? Their longhaul 4-class 77Ws only have 246 or 272 seats depending on configuration.
http://www.jal.co.jp/en/aircraft/conf/777.html

Many carriers have that many, and often far more, seats on much smaller aircraft. For example, KLM's A332s haved 243 seats and their new A333s have 292.
 
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RE: What Is JAL's 'Plan B' For NRT-BOS?

Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:23 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 20):
What's JL's configuration on the 787-8?

Looks to be 42J and 144Y for a total of 186 for the initial service to Boston.

[Edited 2012-02-08 18:24:43]
 
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RE: What Is JAL's 'Plan B' For NRT-BOS?

Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:32 am

Quoting Spunker (Reply 16):
Still hoping for the 787 on 4/22 but who know's what will transpire. Everyone come up and see us there are a multitude of places to spot around Logan. Here's our group
http://www.meetup.com/BostonAirliner...ters/

Best people I've never met.

I want to spend a day with these people as they shot videos and photos around Logan. The stuff they come up with is awesome. Their YouTube channels are brilliant...well-shot, accompanied by music...the whole nine yards. I'm going to make a vow to myself to meet up with them this spring.
 
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RE: What Is JAL's 'Plan B' For NRT-BOS?

Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:53 am

The funniest thing would be if a 77E is subbed, and when a newspaper publishes a photo of it calling it a 787.
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chrisnh
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RE: What Is JAL's 'Plan B' For NRT-BOS?

Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:05 am

Quoting KFlyer (Reply 23):
The funniest thing would be if a 77E is subbed, and when a newspaper publishes a photo of it calling it a 787.

Well, if a 777 comes in initially followed by the 787, it'll give the fire crews two opportunities to spray water & have fun...once for the debut of JAL in Boston and the second one for the debut of the 787.  
 
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RE: What Is JAL's 'Plan B' For NRT-BOS?

Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:58 pm

Very pleased to hear that JAL will open up San Diego-Narita with the 787 as well.

I'm pleased because the 787 was conceived as a plane that would open up 'long-and-thin' routes that other (bigger) aircraft wouldn't be able to serve profitably. Now, JAL has announced plans to open up Boston and San Diego with the 787. Al Nippon did so when they announced San Jose, CA.

The hope is that our own flag carriers open up 'long-and-thin' routes with the 787 as well. The fear is that they will assign it to existing trunk routes (e.g. JFK, ORD, et al) rather than use it for new markets that really could use the service if only for a plane such as the 787.

Speaking as a New Englander, I hope Boston-South America routes are seen as 787-worthy. There is next to nothing going from/to Boston from anywhere in South America right now. We automatically think 'east-west' when conjuring up 787 routes, but north-south routes are goldmines, too!
 
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RE: What Is JAL's 'Plan B' For NRT-BOS?

Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:08 pm

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 25):
Speaking as a New Englander, I hope Boston-South America routes are seen as 787-worthy. There is next to nothing going from/to Boston from anywhere in South America right now. We automatically think 'east-west' when conjuring up 787 routes, but north-south routes are goldmines, too!

JL used to do fifth-freedom flights from Brazil to JFK and LAX. I asked in the thread if that was possible for the BOS flights and was told that while the market is there, the yields are awful and the fares would have to go up quite a bit.

I found Massport's presentation that had a slide detailing the largest markets without service. Some of these might work with the 787:

www.massvacation.com/governors-conference/2011/.../massport.ppt
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RE: What Is JAL's 'Plan B' For NRT-BOS?

Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:20 pm

Does anyone know how bookings are looking on NRT-BOS?

I don't think filling a plane from BOS to South America would be tough at all, especially to Brazil. But the profitability would be another thing. A lot of VFR traffic.
 
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RE: What Is JAL's 'Plan B' For NRT-BOS?

Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:21 pm

That link would have been a terrific one to look at, but it's a dead-end.

But you look at some of the Boston-area communities...Framingham, for example...you could fill a Boston-Brazil 787 every day of the week, if someone had the sense to do so. I cannot speak to how profitable such a route would be, but wasn't the 787 designed to bring the break-even point down a whole bunch?
 
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RE: What Is JAL's 'Plan B' For NRT-BOS?

Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:44 pm

Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 26):
JL used to do fifth-freedom flights from Brazil to JFK and LAX. I asked in the thread if that was possible for the BOS flights and was told that while the market is there, the yields are awful and the fares would have to go up quite a bit.

It will never happen because of the need to clear customs and immigration for connecting passengers at BOS.
I think there's demand and money to be made in BOS-GRU, but without unrestricted access to GRU it will never happen. The problem is not so much demand. It's the fact that US carriers are only allowed so many frequencies into GRU and it's better to maximize those frequencies with bigger planes from their hubs. Maybe LATAM will start such a route.
 
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RE: What Is JAL's 'Plan B' For NRT-BOS?

Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:50 pm

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 28):
That link would have been a terrific one to look at, but it's a dead-end.

Was it a bum link? It's a powerpoint. Check your computer settings to see if it's blocking it from opening, it should open, it might take a while.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 29):
It will never happen because of the need to clear customs and immigration for connecting passengers at BOS.
I think there's demand and money to be made in BOS-GRU, but without unrestricted access to GRU it will never happen. The problem is not so much demand. It's the fact that US carriers are only allowed so many frequencies into GRU and it's better to maximize those frequencies with bigger planes from their hubs. Maybe LATAM will start such a route.

Not to mention, as I've thought about it longer, the need for an extra 787. There's no way a plane can do NRT-BOS-GRU-BOS-NRT in one day.
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RE: What Is JAL's 'Plan B' For NRT-BOS?

Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:40 pm

Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 30):
Was it a bum link? It's a powerpoint. Check your computer settings to see if it's blocking it from opening, it should open, it might take a while.

Yes, you are right. It is a PPT doc that I was able to download but my 2011 version of Powerpoint won't open it. I will keep trying. I have a MacBook Pro with the application Keynote on it; sometimes that will do the trick.
 
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RE: What Is JAL's 'Plan B' For NRT-BOS?

Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:21 pm

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 11):

Aside from not knowing a 787 from a bottle of milk, Boston Mayor Menino would likely shriek with howls of protest (along the lines of, "How DARE JAL do this to ME!").

787 is much faster. The typical bottle of milk won't go bad until several days after it is manufactured.
 
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RE: What Is JAL's 'Plan B' For NRT-BOS?

Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:46 am

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 28):
That link would have been a terrific one to look at, but it's a dead-end.

here's the actual link:
http://www.massvacation.com/governor...ce/2011/presentations/massport.ppt

As for the list, AI was studying BOS-DEL-BOM on the 787 the last time I checked... That might happen once the 787 fleet gets into operation.

[Edited 2012-02-14 19:49:54]
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RE: What Is JAL's 'Plan B' For NRT-BOS?

Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:02 am

I'm trying to figure out whether or not the announcement of SAN and HEL (being discussed on a separate thread) gives us any insight as to the arrival and deployment of the first Dreamliners by JL? I can't really imagine that JL would continue announcing additional routes with the a/c if they don't have a pretty good handle on the first routes' expected starts.

Of course there has been no inaugural date suggested yet for SAN or HEL (other than "FY2012".) For that matter, there hasn't even been a formal announcement of either route by the airline or by either city yet.

Needless to say, I'm trying to be as positive as I can about all these JL expansion plans with the Dreamliner (one route in particular   ) but this seems encouraging to me that things will go as hoped and planned.

bb
 
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RE: What Is JAL's 'Plan B' For NRT-BOS?

Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:57 pm

Looks like Massport is going to make connecting via Logan easier. They have now have plans for a post security connector from Terminal E over to Terminal C. This should work nicely for the JL/B6 tie up.
 
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RE: What Is JAL's 'Plan B' For NRT-BOS?

Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:37 pm

Quoting MAV88 (Reply 35):
Looks like Massport is going to make connecting via Logan easier. They have now have plans for a post security connector from Terminal E over to Terminal C. This should work nicely for the JL/B6 tie up.

Not to mention transfering B6's own international flights to its domestic ones. There already is a hallway from what was Terminal D to Terminal E, so I imagine that it would be part of this connector, and then I assume that they will connect that with the rest of Terminal C.
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RE: What Is JAL's 'Plan B' For NRT-BOS?

Sun Feb 19, 2012 3:48 am

Quoting MAV88 (Reply 35):
Looks like Massport is going to make connecting via Logan easier. They have now have plans for a post security connector from Terminal E over to Terminal C. This should work nicely for the JL/B6 tie up.

Is there a link with this news or project details? This would be awesome. Keep in mind that B6 and LH also have a code share agreement.
 
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RE: What Is JAL's 'Plan B' For NRT-BOS?

Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:30 am

Quoting airbazar (Reply 37):
Is there a link with this news or project details? This would be awesome. Keep in mind that B6 and LH also have a code share agreement.

As well as EI, if I am not mistaken

Edit: I lied...I think its only though JFK

[Edited 2012-02-18 22:33:06]
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BOStonsox
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RE: What Is JAL's 'Plan B' For NRT-BOS?

Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:22 am

Quoting airbazar (Reply 37):
Is there a link with this news or project details? This would be awesome. Keep in mind that B6 and LH also have a code share agreement.

It's only a one-way deal. LH puts its code on B6 flights from BOS and JFK.

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 38):
Edit: I lied...I think its only though JFK

Nope, it's just interline with EI and it's through both BOS and JFK.

We seem to have strayed off the topic quite a bit. But hopefully the 787 flights start on time.
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RE: What Is JAL's 'Plan B' For NRT-BOS?

Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:30 pm

Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 39):
But hopefully the 787 flights start on time.

It will be quite the day when that first JAL 787 touches down at Logan. I the first revenue flight NRT-BOS or BOS-NRT? I would imagine NRT-BOS since it doesn't make much sense to ferry the plane here empty.
 
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chrisnh
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RE: What Is JAL's 'Plan B' For NRT-BOS?

Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:00 pm

Also, I read somewhere that Boeing will send one of their tour 787s to Logan on March 4. Is that confirmed?
 
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RE: What Is JAL's 'Plan B' For NRT-BOS?

Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:51 pm

Yes it is confirmed. Arriving March 4th for event and leaving March 5.
 
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RE: What Is JAL's 'Plan B' For NRT-BOS?

Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:34 pm

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 40):
I would imagine NRT-BOS since it doesn't make much sense to ferry the plane here empty.

I would imagine the same.

Quoting jcarv (Reply 42):
Yes it is confirmed. Arriving March 4th for event and leaving March 5.

Oh, cool! That's a Sunday, so I'll have to go see it if I'm not busy.
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RE: What Is JAL's 'Plan B' For NRT-BOS?

Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:32 pm

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 13):
Quoting chrisnh (Reply 11):
Aside from not knowing a 787 from a bottle of milk, Boston Mayor Menino would likely shriek with howls of protest (along the lines of, "How DARE JAL do this to ME!").

He'd say that alright, but you'd never really fully understand what came out of Mayor Mumbles mouth!

Fortunately Mayor Mumbles has nothing to do or say about BOS. Logan International Airport (BOS) is owned by MASSPORT, a state agency.
 
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RE: What Is JAL's 'Plan B' For NRT-BOS?

Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:40 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 44):
Fortunately Mayor Mumbles has nothing to do or say about BOS. Logan International Airport (BOS) is owned by MASSPORT, a state agency.

Well, sharp observers will recall how 'Loud' Mumbles got several years ago when Hainan Airways was 'considering' Boston as a destination. The Honorable declared it as a done deal.
 
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RE: What Is JAL's 'Plan B' For NRT-BOS?

Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:26 am

Quoting airbazar (Reply 37):
Quoting MAV88 (Reply 35):
Looks like Massport is going to make connecting via Logan easier. They have now have plans for a post security connector from Terminal E over to Terminal C. This should work nicely for the JL/B6 tie up.

Is there a link with this news or project details? This would be awesome. Keep in mind that B6 and LH also have a code share agreement.
http://www.massport.com/doing-busine...Programs/detail.aspx?proj=L1129-C2
 
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RE: What Is JAL's 'Plan B' For NRT-BOS?

Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:00 am

Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 36):
Not to mention transfering B6's own international flights to its domestic ones.

won't those pax get dumped outside the secure area after they clear customs, though? an airside connection wouldn't help them.

Quoting MAV88 (Reply 46):
http://www.massport.com/doing-busine...Programs/detail.aspx?proj=L1129-C2

that makes it sound like the C-E connection would only be to gates that WN is using - are those then connected airside to the rest of E? I never explored back there.
 
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RE: What Is JAL's 'Plan B' For NRT-BOS?

Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:25 am

Quoting tharanga (Reply 47):
won't those pax get dumped outside the secure area after they clear customs, though? an airside connection wouldn't help them.

Hmm. Good point. I wonder if that will be changing soon. It would be great if it was. At least it works when going the other way.
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RE: What Is JAL's 'Plan B' For NRT-BOS?

Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:32 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 44):
Fortunately Mayor Mumbles has nothing to do or say about BOS. Logan International Airport (BOS) is owned by MASSPORT, a state agency.

Doesn't matter really...he's the first one to welcome you to Logan when you walk through the Terminal C walkway to/from the parking garage   Via recorded message, of course

Quoting jcarv (Reply 42):
Yes it is confirmed. Arriving March 4th for event and leaving March 5.

Any idea when they might be arriving give or take? Flying out to FLL that day...might try to get their early to check it out
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