multimark
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Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote

Wed Feb 08, 2012 3:06 am

This time it is the pilots' union, whose cooling off period expires Feb. 14. Not sure why they would bother, when its clear the government will order them back to work just as they did with the agents and FA's last year.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe...earing-strike-vote/article2330155/
 
mogandoCI
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RE: Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote

Wed Feb 08, 2012 3:20 am

Who needs Emirates to destroy AirCanada when their unions are performing that task already ?
 
EddieDude
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RE: Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote

Wed Feb 08, 2012 3:54 am

I sincerely hope there is no disruption to AC's ops. I am scheduled to fly AC to YYZ and back in late February and early March.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
boeingorbust
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RE: Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote

Wed Feb 08, 2012 3:58 am

I doubt you'll get disrupted... Pilots will get ordered back to work just as the flight attendants did and the employees will hate the company, union and government even more than they do now (if that's even possible).

Strikes at AC are common every time the negotiations go around... Never last long though. I'm sure another chapter 11 is lingering as well!
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote

Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:10 am

It boggles my mind how a goverment can intervene in a private airline's affairs with its own employees !
It boggles my mind that even before AC's F/A negociations were completed, the minister of Transport was ready to draft a motion to put back to work the F/A's in case they decided to go on strike.

Talk about sabotaging negociations !

in Europe, Spanair went bust, Malev is gone, and yet here in Canada, our goverment wants to keep afloat an airline that clearly can't swim!

Don't get me wrong, i'm not necessarily taking the union's side on this issue. Both F/A's and pilots at AC are well payed, in general.

I am however, taking ANY unionized employee's side on the issue, in that any unionised employee has the right to strike, in accordance with the rules and regulations set forth by the union and the employer.

What Harper is doing goes against this fundamental principle. This is what I have a problem with !

Thenoflyzone
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
ZBBYLW
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RE: Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote

Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:22 am

Who needs Emirates to destroy AirCanada when their unions are performing that task already ?

Have you actually looked at the contract the company is trying to jam down the pilots throats. I take it then you would be happy to have your Pension taken away, pay reduced, working conditions worsen while one of the CEO's salary keeps on soaring. Check out Robert Milton's pay at the link below! 82 million that he has taken ONLY from ACE in 4 years!

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe...les-to-147-million/article1598432/
Keep the shinny side up!
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote

Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:26 am

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 4):
It boggles my mind how a goverment can intervene in a private airline's affairs with its own employees !

Agreed. Any union should have the right to strike.

The government should stay out of this. If there is a strike, the national economy will not be impacted....AC is not big enough to affect GNP. Anyone impacted by a strike, can raise their concerns with the 3 parties involved: the unions, management and the owners.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
boeingorbust
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RE: Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote

Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:41 am

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 4):
It boggles my mind how a goverment can intervene in a private airline's affairs with its own employees !
It boggles my mind that even before AC's F/A negociations were completed, the minister of Transport was ready to draft a motion to put back to work the F/A's in case they decided to go on strike.

Talk about sabotaging negociations !

in Europe, Spanair went bust, Malev is gone, and yet here in Canada, our goverment wants to keep afloat an airline that clearly can't swim!

Don't get me wrong, i'm not necessarily taking the union's side on this issue. Both F/A's and pilots at AC are well payed, in general.

I am however, taking ANY unionized employee's side on the issue, in that any unionised employee has the right to strike, in accordance with the rules and regulations set forth by the union and the employer.

What Harper is doing goes against this fundamental principle. This is what I have a problem with !

Thenoflyzone

Exactly! What do they have a union for when the union services can't even be used. People have the right to strike!

Quoting zbbylw (Reply 5):
Who needs Emirates to destroy AirCanada when their unions are performing that task already ?

Have you actually looked at the contract the company is trying to jam down the pilots throats. I take it then you would be happy to have your Pension taken away, pay reduced, working conditions worsen while one of the CEO's salary keeps on soaring. Check out Robert Milton's pay at the link below! 82 million that he has taken ONLY from ACE in 4 years!

Also agreed! It's terrible what executives have done to that airline over the past ten years. It's like a scheme! "Become CEO of AC and get a few extra million over the next few years, then lose your job with a nice cherry on top and let someone else come in for a ride!" Think of how the employees must feel as this kind of behavior has been exercised ever since the Canadian takeover! It's disgraceful!
 
yxu737
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RE: Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote

Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:27 am

You know what the government should of never stepped in and Lisa Raitt the Ministry of Labour should be ashamed of herself. The government only steps in when it is in the best interest of the government and I am sick and tired of the Canadian Government. Let the pilots strike if they want to.

Here is a response to why they intervened in the FA dispute in a rant about a issue in London ontario

This is what I wrote
"To whom it may concern
I find it very sad that the government only steps in when things are in the best interest of the government. Why don’t you help the employees of Electro-Motive just like the government helped out Air Canada in telling the Flight Attendants to go back to work when they were able to strike and threatening them with back to work legislation but in fact it is our right to be able to strike. ohhhhhhh just wait a minute this was a federal issue so thats why they stepped in but Electro-Motive is a “provincial matter”. Soon it will be a national problem when all the companies close up shop here and go elsewhere and then we will see who’s problem it is. If tax dollars are being used to entice companies to set up shop here or maintain what they have here then we should get a good bang for our buck key word is our money.
MC"


Dear Mark,



Thank you for contacting me regarding the ongoing labour situation at Electro-Motive Diesel (EMD) in London, Ontario.



EMD is a private company that is currently engaged in a labour situation with their employees who are represented by the Canadian Auto Workers (CAW). I strongly support continued EMD operations in London and the employment it provides and I hope a satisfactory resolution can be found for the sake of the employees and their families.



I am aware that the EMD situation places stress and hardship on the employees and the community and that there have been calls for the federal Government and others to intervene in this situation. The Federal government does not have jurisdiction over this labour dispute. The Government of Canada holds jurisdiction over federally-regulated workplaces, Crown Corporations, and the federal Public Service. Some have pointed to the example of recent federal labour disputes at Canada Post and Air Canada (one a Crown Corporation, the other a federally-regulated workplace) as examples of federal intervention. EMD is a private company and is not a federally-regulated workplace.



This labour situation falls entirely under the jurisdiction of the Province of Ontario and not the Government of Canada. Thus, the Government of Canada cannot intervene in this labour dispute. CAW Local 27 knows this very well and I would strongly encourage them to ask the Government of Ontario to make its position known.

Some have suggested that direct financial benefits were provided by the federal Government to EMD and this is simply not the case. An announcement was made at the EMD plant a few years ago to highlight tax changes that would benefit the customers of EMD and other related manufacturers. Both the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology and the Standing Committee on Finance had recommended an increase to the Capital Cost Allowance (CCA) rate on rail equipment. Budget 2008 increased the CCA rate for railway locomotives to 30 per cent from 15 per cent. This change ensured that the CCA rate for railway locomotives better reflects the useful life of these assets. It also encourages rail operators to acquire a newer, more fuel-efficient fleet of locomotives (e.g. hybrid locomotives), which provide a more environmentally-friendly mode of transportation. This change is effective for new locomotives acquired on or after February 26, 2008, as well as for reconditioning and refurbishing costs incurred on or after February 26, 2008.

Again, it is my hope that both parties are able to find a satisfactory solution for the employees of EMD quickly to ensure long-term competitive operations in London. Thank you for sharing your concerns with me and for providing me with the opportunity to share my position with you.





Kind regards,



Ed Holder, MP

London West
 
yxu737
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RE: Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote

Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:32 am

You can't compare Emirates to any other airline first of all. An airline that is indirectly funded by one of the richest countries in the world. Emirates is owned by a government investment firm with unlimited funds the Investment Corporation of Dubai which is a fund owned by the Emirates.
 
ftornik
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RE: Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote

Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:45 am

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 4):
It boggles my mind how a goverment can intervene in a private airline's affairs with its own employees !
It boggles my mind that even before AC's F/A negociations were completed, the minister of Transport was ready to draft a motion to put back to work the F/A's in case they decided to go on strike.

The only reason why the Gov't interferes is because AC is becoming too big to fail. We have allowed them to form the A++ joint venture with Continental, Lufthansa and United, the gov't is monitoring their pension shortfall issue and even so, it teters towards the Canadian equivalent of Chapter 11. I'm sure gov't officials would like to put the airline out of its misery and nothing would do that faster than letting the collective bargaining process really run its course. The Pilots have labour-managament issues that have been on the back-burner since the merger with Canadian in 2000. The problem is that if AC dies, how do you get from Lethbridge to Mont Joli? Westjet does a great job of serving most of Canada, but the 10% of Canadian who don't live close to a city served by Westjet would be quite isolated if AC failed.
 
AirCanada787
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RE: Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote

Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:07 am

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 1):

Who needs Emirates to destroy AirCanada when their unions are performing that task already ?
Quoting yxu737 (Reply 9):
You can't compare Emirates to any other airline first of all. An airline that is indirectly funded by one of the richest countries in the world. Emirates is owned by a government investment firm with unlimited funds the Investment Corporation of Dubai which is a fund owned by the Emirates.

I don't even think Emirates should be mentioned in this thread. It really has nothing to due with the threat of a strike at Air Canada. But that's just my opinion.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 4):

It boggles my mind how a goverment can intervene in a private airline's affairs with its own employees !

The current government believes that they have the right to get involved with anything which may have any negative impact on the economy. How many times during the last AC labour issue did they throw around the term 'economic recovery'? This situation will be interesting to watch. The fear from some in the unions (and this is not just limited to those at Air Canada) I know is that management will not bargain in good faith if they know/feel that the government will just step-in in the end.
The mind, like a parachute, functions only when open.
 
connies4ever
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RE: Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote

Wed Feb 08, 2012 12:36 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 4):
It boggles my mind how a goverment can intervene in a private airline's affairs with its own employees !
It boggles my mind that even before AC's F/A negociations were completed, the minister of Transport was ready to draft a motion to put back to work the F/A's in case they decided to go on strike.

because the bureaucracy advise the ministers and many in the bureaucracy still view AC as a Crown Corporation , even 25 years after privatisation. As well, AC is not a normal private company as it is governed (straightjacketed ?) by the Air Canada Public Participation Act, which puts a large number of obligations on the company, unlike ANY other private firm in the country. AC is not truly private in that sense.

Quoting zbbylw (Reply 5):
Have you actually looked at the contract the company is trying to jam down the pilots throats. I take it then you would be happy to have your Pension taken away, pay reduced, working conditions worsen while one of the CEO's salary keeps on soaring. Check out Robert Milton's pay at the link below! 82 million that he has taken ONLY from ACE in 4 years!

I agree management are being unreasonable, particularly when you take into account the very generous bonuses that management have awarded themselves in the past few years, often when swimming in red ink. The optics of that are terrible.

Quoting AirCanada787 (Reply 11):
The fear from some in the unions (and this is not just limited to those at Air Canada) I know is that management will not bargain in good faith if they know/feel that the government will just step-in in the end.

I think an entirely valid p.o.v. I don't think management ARE negotiating in good faith. I am not sure but possibly the CIRB (Canadian Industrial Relations Board for non-Canadians, which IIRC has the status of a court) can rule on this if ACPA bring suit.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
multimark
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RE: Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote

Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:10 pm

Quoting zbbylw (Reply 5):
Have you actually looked at the contract the company is trying to jam down the pilots throats. I take it then you would be happy to have your Pension taken away, pay reduced, working conditions worsen while one of the CEO's salary keeps on soaring. Check out Robert Milton's pay at the link below! 82 million that he has taken ONLY from ACE in 4 years!

That's pretty much what happened at bankrupt US legacy carriers though isn't it? They are AC's competition, not LH or SIA.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote

Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:32 pm

Air Canada management has set this up to fail. That was obvious from the start. For the last year, Air Canada's pilots have reassured the Government that they would not strike, not disrupting Canada's apparent fragile economy. All the pilots want to do is negotiate, nothing more. They want to enter into arbitration, in front of an unbiased judge and plead their case ... letting the chips fall where they may. And, accept government sanctioned binding arbitration.

But, that is what Air Canada does NOT want. They have presented two contract proposals, one last month, one six months ago that clearly could not be accepted. The last one was so horrendous it was apparent they were trying to incite some sort of backlash, so that they may go to the government pointing fingers. That has not happened, the pilots have repeated their desire for negotiation.

Remember that during this time, managers voted themselves $39M in bonuses in 2010, just announced $101M bonuses for 2011 and the CEO will get a further $5M if he stays until April 1, 2012. That is the problem when one uses EDITBAR for bonuses and not actual airline performance. That way you don't have to be good at what you do to get a bonus.

I wont go into the contract proposal specifics, as it would not be appropriate ... but just a glimpse shows that about 1000 of AC's pilots and about 400 of Jazz's pilots would be redundant. (A lot of Jazz pilot's flying actually comes under the AC pilots umbrella),
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
YOWVIEWER
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RE: Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote

Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:42 pm

Quoting AirCanada787 (Reply 11):
The problem is that if AC dies, how do you get from Lethbridge to Mont Joli? Westjet does a great job of serving most of Canada, but the 10% of Canadian who don't live close to a city served by Westjet would be quite isolated if AC failed.

I do not necessarily agree. Maybe at first, but the government needs to stay out and let the process run it's due course.
In the meantime if there is money to be made on the isolated feeder routes you can bet that Porter, Bearskin, Transat, First Air, Air Inuit, Westjet / Westjet "Lite", etc. will step in. Even Sunwing is popping into places like Sault Ste Marie for charters, they could grab a bit of extra traffic as well. I can see Porter picking up Mont Joli pretty quick if needed.
 
flyyul
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RE: Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote

Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:55 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 14):
Air Canada management has set this up to fail. That was obvious from the start. For the last year, Air Canada's pilots have reassured the Government that they would not strike, not disrupting Canada's apparent fragile economy. All the pilots want to do is negotiate, nothing more. They want to enter into arbitration, in front of an unbiased judge and plead their case ... letting the chips fall where they may. And, accept government sanctioned binding arbitration.

But, that is what Air Canada does NOT want. They have presented two contract proposals, one last month, one six months ago that clearly could not be accepted. The last one was so horrendous it was apparent they were trying to incite some sort of backlash, so that they may go to the government pointing fingers. That has not happened, the pilots have repeated their desire for negotiation.

Remember that during this time, managers voted themselves $39M in bonuses in 2010, just announced $101M bonuses for 2011 and the CEO will get a further $5M if he stays until April 1, 2012. That is the problem when one uses EDITBAR for bonuses and not actual airline performance. That way you don't have to be good at what you do to get a bonus.

I wont go into the contract proposal specifics, as it would not be appropriate ... but just a glimpse shows that about 1000 of AC's pilots and about 400 of Jazz's pilots would be redundant. (A lot of Jazz pilot's flying actually comes under the AC pilots umbrella),

One of the biggest problems with this company is the silo-focused mentality of various labour groups. Air Canada pilots seem to have their heads in the sand, seemingly blind to the notion that the industry is becoming increasingly globalized. They seem ignorant to the fact that Air Canada's cost structure is so uncompetitive, that Air Canada can't compete effectively with growing foreign and domestic low-cost competition.

The pilot group among others don't recognize that Air Canada's net profit margin in 2010 was below the acceptable level of return for any investor. The continuous rhetoric about management bonuses (management staff typically paid less than pilots fyi) is secondary to a large set of issues which the entire corporation faces.

The pilot group including longhauler, doesn't seem genuinely interested in being part of the solution. They've turned down productivity increases, and turned down a useful tool (low-cost carrier) that will enable Air Canada to compete in tomorrow's marketplace. Now the pilots are complaining that AC isn't negotiating in good faith?

For the purpose of this discussion, Air Canada has the highest unit revenue production of any major airline in North America. Yet, Air Canada has the highest unit cost of any major airline in North America. So if AC's strengths are revenue production, and AC's weakness is costs, what are the pilots going to do to help this airline be leaner and more nimble to win in an increasingly competitive market?

The pilot seems unaware that what is really at stake here - is their jobs. If AC doesn't survive over the long-term, pilots will be looking for cheap non-unionized work in the Middle East or in Asia... perhaps wishing they had been more co-operative.
 
Whiteguy
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RE: Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote

Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:03 pm

Quoting flyyul (Reply 16):
The pilot group including longhauler, doesn't seem genuinely interested in being part of the solution. They've turned down productivity increases, and turned down a useful tool (low-cost carrier) that will enable Air Canada to compete in tomorrow's marketplace. Now the pilots are complaining that AC isn't negotiating in good faith?

The pilot group, along with other employee groups, have been part of the solution for the last 9 years since CCAA. In that time they've seen to company broken up and sold off while the pockets of Milton and Rovenescu have been filled with ridiculous amounts in the forms of pay and bonuses. When is enough enough? Do you really blame the employees for being fed up? No, everyone just blames the employees for the company not doing well. Yet nothing is said about the greed of the CEOs of the company.
 
ZBBYLW
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RE: Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote

Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:09 pm

FLYYUL the problem with your argument is AC pilot's are actually more competitive than their main rivals WS. While they are more competitive than those pilots they are still asked to lower their bar. Perhaps the problem is not with the pilots at all? You mention many "managers" at AC earn less than pilots, and you are right and they should. Many of the managers at AC would be regular employees at other companies but at AC they have been granted titles so they can not form a union. They have too many chiefs and not enough indians.

If you actually look at middle management and upper management you will see where the grotesque level of greed is. Perhaps AC's management should also look at others (mainly WS) to see what it is like to be competitive.
Keep the shinny side up!
 
flyyul
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RE: Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote

Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:10 pm

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 17):

The pilot group, along with other employee groups, have been part of the solution for the last 9 years since CCAA. In that time they've seen to company broken up and sold off while the pockets of Milton and Rovenescu have been filled with ridiculous amounts in the forms of pay and bonuses. When is enough enough? Do you really blame the employees for being fed up? No, everyone just blames the employees for the company not doing well. Yet nothing is said about the greed of the CEOs of the company

Whiteguy - this is becoming emotional instead of rational. Even if we slash the CEO and executive management's pay to $1, we still have an airline that is limping along and is extremely uncompetitive with WestJet, Sunwing, Qatar, Cathay, even Delta. How do you expect Air Canada to survive? How do you expect the pilots and the employees to have a job in the next decade?

May I remind you that the aeroplan/Jazz spin-off allowed Air Canada the capital required to purchase the new 777s and do project XM on all of the fleet. How else did you think that cash was going to be raised?
 
flyyul
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RE: Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote

Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:12 pm

Quoting zbbylw (Reply 18):
FLYYUL the problem with your argument is AC pilot's are actually more competitive than their main rivals WS. While they are more competitive than those pilots they are still asked to lower their bar. Perhaps the problem is not with the pilots at all? You mention many "managers" at AC earn less than pilots, and you are right and they should. Many of the managers at AC would be regular employees at other companies but at AC they have been granted titles so they can not form a union. They have too many chiefs and not enough indians.

Can you please demonstrate how Air Canada pilots are more productive than WestJet pilots?
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote

Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:05 pm

Quoting flyyul (Reply 16):
The pilot group among others don't recognize that Air Canada's net profit margin in 2010 was below the acceptable level of return for any investor

Oh they recognize it ... they are just sick of being blamed for it!

Quoting flyyul (Reply 19):
Whiteguy - this is becoming emotional instead of rational. Even if we slash the CEO and executive management's pay to $1, we still have an airline that is limping along and is extremely uncompetitive with WestJet, Sunwing, Qatar, Cathay, even Delta

Same thing if you slashed pilot wages to $1 as well.

Right now, AC pilots produce more RPMs per pilot than Cathay, Delta and Westjet. No idea about Sunwing, their numbers are not within the public domain. Greater than Westjet mostly because of the larger aircraft and greater distance involved. But greater than Delta (and most international American carriers) and Cathay because antiquated duty rules set by Transport Canada allow AC to fly the Atlantic and most of the Pacific with one less pilot. For example YYZ-FRA flies with two pilots at AC, while JFK-FRA carries three at AA. Three pilots on YYZ-TLV, four pilots on JFK-TLV! In other words as much as 33% more productive at AC.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 19):
May I remind you that the aeroplan/Jazz spin-off allowed Air Canada the capital required to purchase the new 777s and do project XM on all of the fleet. How else did you think that cash was going to be raised?

Nope.

Not one penny of the $2.5B that was raped from Air Canada in the last 5 years went back into the airline ... not one penny! It all went into ACE Aviation, which was divided among International Investors, leaving AC where it is today ... a name shell set up to make external interests wealthy. Very sad for the Canadian taxpayer.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 19):
How do you expect Air Canada to survive? How do you expect the pilots and the employees to have a job in the next decade?

Hopefully with a management team that looks beyond their next bonus cheque.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 20):
Can you please demonstrate how Air Canada pilots are more productive than WestJet pilots?

Not just Air Canada pilots (by a long shot), but also Air Canada employees. Look at employee cost per "equivalent full time employee". This is where most people looking at the numbers make a mistake, they look at total employees. But, in the financial results of both Air Canada and Westjet, you will see a term "equivalent full time employee". That is because more than 30% of AC employees are now part-time. They receive greatly reduced benefits and only work during peak times. Very efficient.

Look at their cost (including pension) per employee, you will see that it is within 2% of Westjet. Also, you will see they produce more RPMs than Westjet. Kind of makes one wonder where the money actually is going, now that management can't use the employees as an excuse.

It is one of the main reasons Westjet was not mentioned in the last set of employee negotiations. That bar has been met, management is now looking for a lower bar.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote

Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:16 pm

Quoting flyyul (Reply 20):

I should also mention an important point. The pilots (for example) are not arguing the points you mention. They want the opportunity to argue the points you mention. That luxury/right may well be removed.

If what you say is accurate, and it may well be, then so be it. Let's hear it from an unbiased judge/arbitrator, after both sides have had the opportunity to present their case.

That is the main point I was making above. The pilots are lobbying the Government for the chance at negotiation. If the result of that negotiation are the facts you state above, then nothing more can be said and it must be accepted.

However, Air Canada's management appears to be trying to avoid that negotiation. The last offer was clearly made to incite a reaction among the pilot group hoping to cause some illegal job action, (which wont happen) so that management can point at the pilots, when meeting with the government. For reasons I can only speculate, Air Canada appears to fear meeting before an arbitrator allowing both side to speak.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
flyyul
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RE: Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote

Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:33 pm

Longhauler,

Skew the facts they way you want them. Air Canada could be another AMR

Quoting longhauler (Reply 21):

Not one penny of the $2.5B that was raped from Air Canada in the last 5 years went back into the airline ... not one penny! It all went into ACE Aviation, which was divided among International Investors, leaving AC where it is today ... a name shell set up to make external interests wealthy. Very sad for the Canadian taxpayer.

That is a complete lie. It just shows you're arguing without knowing the facts. I'm not sure where you're getting your information, but i've offered numerous times to come into HQ for a fact session with our people. You've declined numerous times.

Longhauler, if we don't collectively change our attitudes, chances are we're going to be applying for a job at WestJet or Emirates or AirAsia. Your choice.

[Edited 2012-02-08 11:33:46]
 
flyyul
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RE: Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote

Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:39 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 22):
If what you say is accurate, and it may well be, then so be it. Let's hear it from an unbiased judge/arbitrator, after both sides have had the opportunity to present their case.

That is the main point I was making above. The pilots are lobbying the Government for the chance at negotiation. If the result of that negotiation are the facts you state above, then nothing more can be said and it must be accepted.

I'm not going to comment or speculate on why this is not moving forward. All I can say is that numerous offers were made to the pilots that;

a.) guaranteed jobs at mainline for existing pilots
b.) proposed productivity increases which help address AC's cost issues
c.) set-up a low-cost carrier with wages/benefits comparable to Sunwing/Transat/JetStar etc while grandfathering AC pilots at mainline and guaranteeing parallel growth at mainline.
d.) the executives did a road show with the pilots to discuss the merits of this plan.

All 3 proposals were rejected, and ACPA's previous leadership was swiftly removed. Even ACPA previous leadership thought that this was a fair and balanced deal for both sides.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but an unbias set of observers would argue that the pilots are not negotiating in good faith.

[Edited 2012-02-08 11:40:28]
 
Whiteguy
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RE: Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote

Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:42 pm

Quoting flyyul (Reply 23):
Skew the facts they way you want them. Air Canada could be another AMR

You ask for the facts, he gives you the facts, and you accuse him of skewing the facts. Nice!! What's the point?

Quoting flyyul (Reply 23):
That is a complete lie. It just shows you're arguing without knowing the facts. I'm not sure where you're getting your information, but i've offered numerous times to come into HQ for a fact session with our people. You've declined numerous times.

And what exactly do you do at HQ? Makes me wonder about your stance on this.
 
flyyul
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RE: Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote

Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:45 pm

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 25):
And what exactly do you do at HQ? Makes me wonder about your stance on this.

Whatever I do at HQ makes me qualified to respond to unsubstantiated "facts" made by the certain employees. Being close to the day to day financial state of the company also justifies my general concern that ALL Air Canada employees must to be ready to adapt to quickly changing dynamics in the marketplace. One only need to see what has happened to American Airlines, Malev, Spanair etc with the rise of low cost competition in their own backyard.

Chances are whiteguy, that as a DH8 pilot, you're also far removed from the facts.

[Edited 2012-02-08 11:46:49]
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote

Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:55 pm

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 25):
You ask for the facts, he gives you the facts, and you accuse him of skewing the facts. Nice!! What's the point?

Exactly.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 26):
you're also far removed from the facts

I am not going to argue your (ahem) "facts" on here. That is inappropriate.

However, I will continue to argue for the right to negotiate before an unbiased judge. If that judge supports your (tee hee hee) "facts" then I will accept them. But remember, Air Canada has refused to do just that for any employee group in the last 10 years.

It's getting a little old. If Air Canada's pilots are so inefficient and overpaid, then stand before a judge and prove that.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
Whiteguy
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RE: Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote

Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:07 pm

Quoting flyyul (Reply 26):
Quoting whiteguy (Reply 25):
And what exactly do you do at HQ? Makes me wonder about your stance on this.

Whatever I do at HQ makes me qualified to respond to unsubstantiated "facts" made by the certain employees. Being close to the day to day financial state of the company also justifies my general concern that ALL Air Canada employees must to be ready to adapt to quickly changing dynamics in the marketplace. One only need to see what has happened to American Airlines, Malev, Spanair etc with the rise of low cost competition in their own backyard.

Chances are whiteguy, that as a DH8 pilot, you're also far removed from the facts.

[Edited 2012-02-08 11:46:49]

I may not know all the "facts" but having been in industry 20+ years, worked at AC for almost 10 years and still have family members working there, I'm pretty sure I'm well informed in the facts.

Just because I'm a DH8 pilot at a different company doesn't change that "fact"!

Honestly, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you sound like one of the managers at AC that worked the ramp or sales for a year and thought he knew it all. The opportunity came up for you to moved ahead within the company and make a difference. But just like every manager I've seen move up you became that guy that forgot where he came from and believe everything you are told!!
 
connies4ever
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RE: Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote

Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:23 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 14):
But, that is what Air Canada does NOT want. They have presented two contract proposals, one last month, one six months ago that clearly could not be accepted. The last one was so horrendous it was apparent they were trying to incite some sort of backlash, so that they may go to the government pointing fingers. That has not happened, the pilots have repeated their desire for negotiation.

Remember that during this time, managers voted themselves $39M in bonuses in 2010, just announced $101M bonuses for 2011 and the CEO will get a further $5M if he stays until April 1, 2012. That is the problem when one uses EDITBAR for bonuses and not actual airline performance. That way you don't have to be good at what you do to get a bonus.

Per my Reply 14, it seems clear that management is "negotiating" in bad faith. Whatever FLYYUL might say.

My brother was in management (labour) at Jazz for quite a while, and NONE of this is news to me.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
AirCanada787
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RE: Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote

Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:36 pm

Quoting YOWVIEWER (Reply 15):
Quoting AirCanada787 (Reply 11):
The problem is that if AC dies, how do you get from Lethbridge to Mont Joli? Westjet does a great job of serving most of Canada, but the 10% of Canadian who don't live close to a city served by Westjet would be quite isolated if AC failed.

That quote isn't actually something I wrote in reply 11. Just an FYI. Its actually from ftornik in reply 10.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 12):
I think an entirely valid p.o.v. I don't think management ARE negotiating in good faith. I am not sure but possibly the CIRB (Canadian Industrial Relations Board for non-Canadians, which IIRC has the status of a court) can rule on this if ACPA bring suit.

I haven't of course seen the offers presented so I can't say for sure if they are or aren't bargaining in good faith, but under the circumstances I wouldn't be hard to imagine that they aren't. Which is why I brought it up.

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 17):
The pilot group, along with other employee groups, have been part of the solution for the last 9 years since CCAA. In that time they've seen to company broken up and sold off while the pockets of Milton and Rovenescu have been filled with ridiculous amounts in the forms of pay and bonuses. When is enough enough? Do you really blame the employees for being fed up? No, everyone just blames the employees for the company not doing well. Yet nothing is said about the greed of the CEOs of the company.

I have to agree. I'm not a big fan of unions. But its well known that all of the working groups have over the years given up a lot to keep the airline the way it is today. I don't blame them for feeling that they are owed something since executive pay has been more than generous over the past few years. Of course the argument is always presented that you need to pay top dollar if you want to attract top talent at the top. I feel like that applies not only at the top however.
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Skywatcher
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RE: Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote

Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:37 pm

As a frequent AC customer I feel that I'm entitled to an opinion. As far as I'm concerned at this point it basically boils down to "put AC out of this neverending misery" and just go on strike. Then let the whole thing spiral into yet another bankruptcy which would be the inevitable conclusion of such an action.

I am flying YUL-FLL on AC in 2 weeks and yet again my trip is threatened. This happened to me back in October as well. I'm really, really getting tired of being held hostage by a bunch of people who make more money than I do, have better working conditions than I ever did and actually continue to benefit from the luxury of a defined pension plan.

I may end up being forced to fly a U.S. airline for my trip. I should have known better and booked it that way in the first place.

[Edited 2012-02-08 13:39:32]
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote

Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:12 pm

Quoting Skywatcher (Reply 31):
I am flying YUL-FLL on AC in 2 weeks and yet again my trip is threatened.

Rest assured, your trip is not threatened.

The pilots made that clear from the start. While a strike vote will be taken, it has to, there will be no strike. The only way travel can be disrupted is if there is a lockout, and am sure Ms. Raitt will not allow that.

Enjoy your vacation.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
cyeg66
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RE: Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote

Wed Feb 08, 2012 11:33 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 14):
, just announced $101M bonuses for 2011 and the CEO will get a further $5M if he stays until April 1, 2012
Quoting flyyul (Reply 23):
Skew the facts they way you want them.

So I'm curious, fact or fiction?

Quoting flyyul (Reply 19):
Even if we slash the CEO and executive management's pay to $1, we still have an airline that is limping along and is extremely uncompetitive

If it is indeed fact, then your comment that this ^ sort of stuff, let's call it "leakage", is perfectly normal and acceptable is particularly reprehensible. I'm looking for my vomit icon button but seem to have misplaced it. Franchement, I suppose the books couldn't have benefited from a "bonus" of (for example) $80 million on the correct side of the ledger had the captains of the ship awarded themselves a *paltry* sum of $21 million in bonuses. Who coined the phrase "can't get blood from a stone" because we seem to have found an exception! If a business is in the red, it's ok to exacerbate matters in cataclysmic proportion. I realize it's not simple paper-money bonuses being awarded but anything in its equivalent dollar value is still something being taken out of the company's hide. It all adds up. Regardless, I don't think I have to worry about seeing one of them at a set of lights with a squeegee in hand. Truthfully, have they (the executive team) ever picked up a simple university textbook and learned a couple things about managing a company? Ever hear of how morale/contentment/productivity of the employee group is closely linked to how upper (and middle, to some extent) management comports itself? I'm surprised employees have kept going this long, particularly with the recent and frequent government intervention....

All hear about the ORNGE debacle...? Money/power corrupts, there's little doubt, and I ain't talkin' about the pilots.

edit: Good luck longhauler. Hope you have the opportunity to retire with a suitable pension someday.

[Edited 2012-02-08 15:34:27]
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YOWVIEWER
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RE: Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote

Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:26 am

DB pension plans are dinosaurs now. Global economy cannot support them. And why can't you have a "suitable" retirement based on a DC pension plan ? So much hatred going on here in this thread reminds me of the good old days between Canada Post & the Feds. It's time to bury the airline, and grow something new from the ashes where the employees actually support the airline, and management cares about its employees. How can "Joe Public" feel good hopping on board an AC flight with this much animosity occurring ? Getting scary to me.
 
connies4ever
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RE: Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote

Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:17 am

Quoting YOWVIEWER (Reply 34):
How can "Joe Public" feel good hopping on board an AC flight with this much animosity occurring ?

Easy. A very technically competent airline, offering a very good schedule, and with quality service. Even during the threatened FA strike period, when travelling, and when I had to visit the head, I'd take a moment to talk to an FA if he/she was nearby and basically say, "I understand the situation is difficult, but I appreciate your professianalism".
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
YVRLTN
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RE: Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote

Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:30 am

Have no dog in this fight, but...

Quoting longhauler (Reply 21):
Not one penny of the $2.5B that was raped from Air Canada in the last 5 years went back into the airline ... not one penny! It all went into ACE Aviation, which was divided among International Investors, leaving AC where it is today ... a name shell set up to make external interests wealthy. Very sad for the Canadian taxpayer.
Quoting cyeg66 (Reply 33):
All hear about the ORNGE debacle...? Money/power corrupts, there's little doubt, and I ain't talkin' about the pilots.

Now we know where Dr Mazza got his business ideas from!

My 2 cents, AC management needs to be very careful, what with WS planning regional and attacking the outlying spokes of the network, you need to keep happy the people who actually make the money day in day out. Once your ass is out on the street, their aint many companies where you can move on in and carry on playing the same game. Apart from the government offices of course.

Im pretty anti union, the conditions when they were instigated largely do not exist in the western world today and I feel in some cases they are just militant, but I dont feel this is the case here. If management are unwilling to meet for negotiations, that means one thing - lots of smelly doo doo in the closet...
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote

Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:57 am

Quoting YOWVIEWER (Reply 34):
DB pension plans are dinosaurs now. Global economy cannot support them.

As I said above, I wont discuss specifics, as I don't feel it is appropriate. However, I will discuss this common misconception.

The "Global Economy" does not support pension plans, the employee supports the pension plan. At least in Canada.

The DB pension plans at Air Canada are paid for by the employee. The employees don't want something they didn't earn, they simply want what they paid for. Unlike the United States (for example) where the employee does not make a contribution, in Canada the employee does. Take me (for example) I contribute $1500 a MONTH into the pilot pension plan. (The pilot pension plan is separate from the rest of AC's employees).

It is also a common misconception that working employees pay for retired employees. Not true, when one contributes into a plan, you maintain an "account" on which you draw when you retire. These are all set by actuaries, and normally are fairly accurate. However, the economic events of the last decade have allowed upper management to instill fear, and yet a further excuse to find revenue ... blood from a stone as stated above.

I can understand how this particular misconception arose though, as in Canada the CPP is paid from general revenue from the Government, and not from payments the actual employee made over the years. Had that been the case, and the Government actually "banked" CPP contributions, we would not have the feared CPP shortfall being envisioned.

Notice though, the main opponents to Canada's (not Air Canada's, but the country in general) DB pension plans, are the very ones who have very lucrative secure pension plans themselves. Namely upper management, and politicians. Also note, they are the very ones that did NOT pay for their own pension plans!
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote

Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:30 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 37):
Notice though, the main opponents to Canada's (not Air Canada's, but the country in general) DB pension plans, are the very ones who have very lucrative secure pension plans themselves. Namely upper management, and politicians. Also note, they are the very ones that did NOT pay for their own pension plans!

Not true. I would say most Canadians are opposed to DB pensions. Most working Canadians today do not even have a corporate pension plan, so it seems to me that highly paid AC pilots should be flexible on this issue, since most of your fellow Cdns do without, and your own company is close to bankruptcy (yet again).

Quoting YOWVIEWER (Reply 34):
DB pension plans are dinosaurs now. Global economy cannot support them. And why can't you have a "suitable" retirement based on a DC pension plan ?

Agreed. DB pension plans are becoming rarer and rarer. Good closing question.....

Quoting Skywatcher (Reply 31):
As far as I'm concerned at this point it basically boils down to "put AC out of this neverending misery" and just go on strike. Then let the whole thing spiral into yet another bankruptcy which would be the inevitable conclusion of such an action.

Agreed. Let them go on strike. Another CCAA if necessary. Indeed, even scrap the restrictive and arguably racist AC Act which requires a Montreal HQ and unnecessary French customer service on the 80%+ part of the network that is English speaking.

Quoting AirCanada787 (Reply 30):
I have to agree. I'm not a big fan of unions. But its well known that all of the working groups have over the years given up a lot to keep the airline the way it is today.

Well, it's not enough. AC unit costs are still the highest of any legacy carrier in NA (confirmed by AC insider above) and their unit costs are 25% higher than WS.....so the AC employees remain overpaid.....

Quoting flyyul (Reply 16):
The continuous rhetoric about management bonuses (management staff typically paid less than pilots fyi) is secondary to a large set of issues which the entire corporation faces.

Yes, but management bonuses are hugely symbolic. No mgmt should be receiving bonuses at ANY money losing business....it is highly irritating to unionized employees taking cuts.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 16):
So if AC's strengths are revenue production, and AC's weakness is costs, what are the pilots going to do to help this airline be leaner and more nimble to win in an increasingly competitive market?

Well, what are the management types going to do to help? How about 10% pay cuts across the board for ALL HQ staff and pilots?

Quoting longhauler (Reply 21):
Right now, AC pilots produce more RPMs per pilot than Cathay, Delta and Westjet. No idea about Sunwing, their numbers are not within the public domain. Greater than Westjet mostly because of the larger aircraft and greater distance involved.

What are the RPM's for the AC 32x/190 fleet? That would be true comparison against WS. But even then.....since WS makes money....and AC loses money.....then AC pilots should be paid less than WS pilots at least until AC returns to profit.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 21):
Look at their cost (including pension) per employee, you will see that it is within 2% of Westjet. Also, you will see they produce more RPMs than Westjet.

That can't be true. By your argument, AC would have the same unit cost base as WS and with the higher AC yields, AC should be WILDLY profitable.....and yet the truth is that WS has LOWER yields and yet is v profitable. While AC loses money. Clearly, the problen is the AC cost base.
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threepoint
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RE: Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote

Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:35 am

Quoting Boeingorbust (Reply 3):
I'm sure another chapter 11 is lingering as well!

I think you're confused, as we don't have chapter 11 in Canada. Look up CCAA.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 6):
If there is a strike, the national economy will not be impacted....AC is not big enough to affect GNP.

Well there won't be a strike as was mentioned before, but funny how the government used that exact excuse ( a negative impact on the economy) in legislating the flight attendants back to work a few months ago.

Quoting yxu737 (Reply 8):
You know what the government should of never stepped in and Lisa Raitt the Ministry of Labour should be ashamed of herself. The government only steps in when it is in the best interest of the government and I am sick and tired of the Canadian Government. Let the pilots strike if they want to.

Your answer was contained within your MP's response. Commercial air travel is a federally-regulated workplace (unlike Caterpillar, EMD etc) and thus the feds had every right to step in. Whether or not they should have can be up for debate.

Quoting ftornik (Reply 10):
The problem is that if AC dies, how do you get from Lethbridge to Mont Joli?

WS with a third-tier carrier on either end (Integra/Pascan). No more flight segments than you would do if traveling today by AC/Jazz. We'd see some pretty speedy interline agreements and route enhancements on the hypothetical day after AC closed its doors.
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boeingorbust
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RE: Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote

Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:04 am

Quoting threepoint (Reply 39):
I think you're confused, as we don't have chapter 11 in Canada. Look up CCAA.

So sorry good sir... Bankruptcy and restructure  
 
boeingorbust
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RE: Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote

Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:07 am

Question is does the implementation of WS's new regional change the governments opinion on another strike down the road? If WS takes care of the domestic transportation throughout Canada then there is less threat to the general public if there was such a strike! Now on long haul routes... This is a different story.
 
ANM604
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RE: Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote

Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:40 am

In AC threads, especially ones related to unions, the emotions always seem to run extra high, which I fear may cloud what could be some constructive dialog. Instead, a lot of the same rhetoric seems to get tossed from side to side. Despite this, there are some things that remain obvious:

1) AC Upper Management - There seems to be a huge disconnect between top level management and the employees. if this airline is ever going to be successful, this fence must be mended. Yes, there were some huge compensation packages for some CEO's, which is a slap in the face to other employees who face the prospect of pay cuts. I am of the belief that to deserve the good compensation that Mr. Milton and others have received, there should be good performance. Which, there obviously has not been. But the fact remains, in comparison to the losses racked up every year, this is but a "drop in the bucket". Slashing all bonuses/salaries of executives, is not going to turn AC profitable over night.

2) Mid and Lower Management - Unfortunately, this is the group that has the greatest potential to influence change at AC, but they are caught in the middle of a war between the unions and HQ. Contrary to what some on here are saying, they are NOT highly paid. Most make less then $80,000/year, and work 5 days a week, with very long hours.

3) Unions - Like I mentioned before, the disconnect between the unions and management is huge, and is the *biggest* thing holding this company from being successful. I am not intimately familiar with the new contracts being offered to employees, but suffice to say, NONE are under paid. The pension issue being the stickiest one, I remain convinced that a DB plan is not beneficial to either group, especially in this case. I would much rather see a healthy DC plan, then the current underfunded mess. With regards to the strike issue, I hate to see any sort of job action, regardless of who is "at fault". The ONLY ones who truly suffer are AC's customers.

While I'm leaving some issues out, for lack of time more then anything, these seem to be the major problems AC faces (internally). AC is a legacy carrier, and with that comes older employees, making more then their counter-parts at WS, which explains some of the cost differences between the two. With that said, I don't think AC should be compared to WS, they are just too different to enable an accurate gauge of AC's health. There are some other things to be said about WS, but that's for another thread.

Overall, AC is a great airline. They have a great product (can't wait for the 787's!!!!!), and a great group of employees who deserve to be treated with dignity. But that being said, there needs to be some reconciliation, and more importantly, DIALOGUE, or I fear nothing will ever change. Hopefully some of you on here can start to mend the fences, and spread the attitude to the rest of the employees! Cheers

*sorry for any spelling errors, brain is starting to turn off...  
 
abrelosojos
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RE: Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote

Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:57 am

I have a silly question as being from outside Canada and developing a new found interest in the country's aviation sector. If AC goes to strike, can't Jazz technically take over flying? Or, are they totally separate?

Saludos,
A.
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connies4ever
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RE: Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote

Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:03 am

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 43):
I have a silly question as being from outside Canada and developing a new found interest in the country's aviation sector. If AC goes to strike, can't Jazz technically take over flying? Or, are they totally separate?

Totally separate, they basically do contract flying for AC under a CPA. Even if they wanted to, they don't have the staff or equipment to 'take over' mainline flying.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
threepoint
Posts: 1292
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RE: Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote

Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:02 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 38):
Indeed, even scrap the restrictive and arguably racist AC Act

Scrapping the Act would do nothing but good for AC as many of the provisions contained within are costly and unnecessary. But let's be clear, while odorous, the ACPPA (Act) is not at all racist. Perhaps you have your 'isms' mixed up?

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 38):
AC unit costs are still the highest of any legacy carrier in NA (confirmed by AC insider above)

To be fair, he stated that AC has high costs. I don't believe there was any comparison nor ranking among any other airlines; those are your words.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 38):
their unit costs are 25% higher than WS.....so the AC employees remain overpaid.....

Or perhaps the WestJetters are underpaid? Not all is sunshine & lollipops in the teal hangar, believe me.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 38):
since WS makes money....and AC loses money.....then AC pilots should be paid less than WS pilots at least until AC returns to profit.

It is grossly unfair to pin the results of an airline's profitability on any employee group. AC is unprofitable despite the excellent work performed by pilots, flight attendants, mechanics, ground staff, ops folks, gate agents etc etc etc. I think we can all agree the problems lie squarely with the management executives and their union counterparts.

Quoting Boeingorbust (Reply 41):
Question is does the implementation of WS's new regional change the governments opinion on another strike down the road? If WS takes care of the domestic transportation throughout Canada then there is less threat to the general public if there was such a strike!

No, the government will likely retain its current stance on strikes affecting the big boys in commercial air travel - a federally regulated sector. The addition of WestJet Lite will not render AC superfluous or less crucial to the national transportation network than it is today. Note that if AC folded, WS could not "take care" of our domestic travel by any stretch. Similarly, AC could not quickly absorb the demand if WS closed its doors overnight.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
connies4ever
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RE: Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote

Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:36 pm

Quoting threepoint (Reply 45):
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 38):
their unit costs are 25% higher than WS.....so the AC employees remain overpaid.....

Or perhaps the WestJetters are underpaid? Not all is sunshine & lollipops in the teal hangar, believe me.

Threepoint, Neil is comparing apples to oranges, something he's good at. Hmm..perhaps a lawyer ?
AC's unit costs MUST be higher than WS since they are structurally different entities. As a network carrier, AC has to maintain a diverse fleet of a/c to meet different mission goals. Not so WS (see: airlines for dummies). Ergo, AC's operating, maintenance, and training costs MUST be higher. In principle this is covered by the fact that AC has a J cabin which generates substantial revenue,particularly on longhaul.

Quoting threepoint (Reply 45):
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 38):
since WS makes money....and AC loses money.....then AC pilots should be paid less than WS pilots at least until AC returns to profit.

It is grossly unfair to pin the results of an airline's profitability on any employee group. AC is unprofitable despite the excellent work performed by pilots, flight attendants, mechanics, ground staff, ops folks, gate agents etc etc etc. I think we can all agree the problems lie squarely with the management executives and their union counterparts.

Once again, bogus. AC has both made and lost money in recent years, therefore the statement fragment "...and AC loses money" is total BS. I might add that to my knowledge, at least until recently, WS has not followed GAAP when making financial statements, so again apples to oranges.

And I agree it is unfair to single out a specific group. But I think fairness eludes Neil.

AC's Q4 statement indicates a $60M loss -- this is their most stressful quarter so perhaps not overall bad. It will be interesting to see the overall year when it comes out.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
sixtyseven
Posts: 383
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RE: Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote

Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:15 pm

To be clear.

The Air Canada pilots DO NOT want to go before a judge and enter into BINDING ARBITRATION.

They want to freely negotiate a new Collective Agreement without outside interference. Government or Judicial.

The corporation want to send this to binding arbitration. From October on they have headed down this path. They filed notice of dispute days before the pilots were in a position to return to the table. This allowed concilliation- a period of 60 days where the company asked all the right questions. They ran that 60 days down to 0 and required an extension of said conciliation to present their offer. This offer removed all Scope protection and basically could gut their contract. In all of this the Pilots have not escalated the situation or providing provocation to allow unjust and onerous governmental interference.

They repeatedly refused further extensions despite even the federally appointed conciliators requests. The 21 day cooling off period then began and as such at the end of this period the company can arbitrarily change the working conditions of its pilots. The company used Concilliations to start a clock ticking towards binding arbitration. This has been their goal all along. They have done nothing but bargain in bad faith despite it's pilots doing the opposite. They were hoodwinked.

The threat of this is moving international operations off shore where Skilled Canadian labor would have no right to said work. The mainline would be slowly bled to death. All employee groups effected. And especially the pension. How is the mainline employee groups pensions funded when the mainline, in essence, fails to exist.

This is not about raises, not about work rules. This is about defending a well paid, well respected, well trained, profession. Lisa Raitt talks about trying to protect a fragile economy but cannot look past the end of her nose when it comes to the impact of losing thousands of well paying jobs.

Those are facts.

The largest fact is the Pilots do not want to ground the airline to a halt. They want to be armed with a mandate that will force the company back to meaningful negotiations. They want to have the flexibility to respond quickly if the company does something drastic and untoward. The pilots have been angels in all of this and continue to want to move the country and it's people and goods. However a time has come where it needs to protect itself.
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connies4ever
Posts: 3393
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:54 pm

RE: Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote

Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:34 pm

Quoting SixtySeven (Reply 47):
To be clear.

The Air Canada pilots DO NOT want to go before a judge and enter into BINDING ARBITRATION.

To be clear ... I agree.

AC Pilots are not extreme. There will be a strike vote, but I think no strike. This is all shadow dancing.
New Tom Paton, dated his daughter. A more reasonable man I never knew. But protected his turf.
ACPA doing no different.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
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longhauler
Posts: 4947
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

RE: Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote

Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:24 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 38):
That can't be true. By your argument, AC would have the same unit cost base as WS and with the higher AC yields, AC should be WILDLY profitable.....and yet the truth is that WS has LOWER yields and yet is v profitable. While AC loses money. Clearly, the problen is the AC cost base.

Looking at the 4th quarter results of both Air Canada and Westjet, an interesting comparison appears.

Air Canada had 23600 equivalent full time employees. They produced 15,290,000,000 seat miles and $2,699,000,000.00 of total revenue. That is, 647,000 ASMs and $114,364.00 per employee.

Westjet had 8420 equivalent full time employees. They produced 5,328,928,000 seat miles and $781,500,000.00 total revenue. That is, 632,000 ASMs and $92,814.00 per employee.

In other words, Air Canada's employees produced 2.3% more ASMs, and a whopping 23% more revenue per employee.

So, Air Canada is losing money??? It sure doesn't appear to be an employee problem. Back to you management, any answers?
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!