TruemanQLD
Topic Author
Posts: 1346
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 1:09 pm

China Southern - Why So Little International?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:04 pm

After recently returning from a return BNE-CAN-TSN trip, I was surprised to see how little international presence CZ had. Obviously they have heavily focused on the domestic China market and close destinations in Asia, but only fly to CDG and AMS in Europe (though LHR will be soon) and to YVR and LAX in North America. While they can claim to be the largest Chinese airline in Australia, the frequency of their services are far less than that of CX, SQ etc. This surprised me initially as I had expected 'Asia's largest airline' to have a larger international presence. Then I read in the February edition of Ni Hau where the CEO talked about how they wanted to expand more internationally. The only problem with that is they have less than 20 long haul aircraft currently on order (3 A380's, 10 787's and 6 A330's (according to wikipedia anyway)) so that will hardly make for huge international expansion, especially with the Australian flights possibly requiring extra services as they appear to be having high load factors (which I understand doesn't mean high yields, but is not a bad indicator usually).

So my question is, how do CZ plan to expand significantly internationally with so few international aircraft on order? Especially with some of the aircraft (A330-300's especially) being quite old.

I understand that the airline has grown quite quickly in the past 15 years, but with chinese air travel expected to continue to increase, I would have expected more and larger orders.
 
jfk777
Posts: 5828
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

RE: China Southern - Why So Little International?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:15 pm

China Southern is based in Guanzou, not Peking like Air China or Shanghai like China Eastern, so while still a large city not one of the top 2. CS has ha a lack of long haul planes for their needs to Europe, LAX and Australia. Their new A380 shuld help to release some 777 for new flights on existing routes or new routes.
 
IndianicWorld
Posts: 2771
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2001 11:32 am

RE: China Southern - Why So Little International?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:19 pm

The Chinese carriers have traditionally been quite conservative in their expansion outside of Asia really overall.

CZ are slowly expanding their horizons, boosting connections as they find new markets. So far they have been quite strategic in their approach, targeting a few markets to try and gain a foundation for future growth.

Exciting times  
 
LondonCity
Posts: 964
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:57 pm

RE: China Southern - Why So Little International?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:16 pm

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 2):
The Chinese carriers have traditionally been quite conservative in their expansion outside of Asia really overall.

I find that surprising when you consider the volume of business and trade taking place between China and Africa. Yes, the Chinese airlines do serve Africa but I believe the growth in travel between these two areas is being met by the likes of EK/EY/QR.
 
B2443
Posts: 586
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2004 2:28 am

RE: China Southern - Why So Little International?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:25 pm

Quoting TruemanQLD (Thread starter):
(3 A380's, 10 787's and 6 A330's (according to wikipedia anyway))

oh they have more than 6 330's. CZ, MU, as well as CA has tons of 330's. They've got 6 772ER's.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):
China Southern is based in Guanzou, not Peking like Air China or Shanghai like China Eastern, so while still a large city not one of the top 2

Also they are too close to HKG.

Also they may have limitations in opening international service from PEK or PVG. After all, CZ, CA and MU are all state owned therefore they should not cannibalize each other. As a result, CZ find themselves in an awkward position with the 3 380's, with 2 more coming soon. Those have been flying PEK-CAN and will do PEK-HKG soon, i.e. not exactly internaltional.

Quoting TruemanQLD (Thread starter):
Obviously they have heavily focused on the domestic China market

They will see that pie going away due to the high speed rail network.
 
doug_or
Posts: 3118
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2000 9:55 am

RE: China Southern - Why So Little International?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:05 pm

Quoting B2443 (Reply 4):
oh they have more than 6 330's.

On order?
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
LondonCity
Posts: 964
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:57 pm

RE: China Southern - Why So Little International?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:31 pm

Some news of international expansion.

According to this news item, CZ plans to serve CAN-LHR from June and bookings are now open:

http://www.businesstraveller.com/new...pens-london-guangzhou-reservations
 
TruemanQLD
Topic Author
Posts: 1346
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 1:09 pm

RE: China Southern - Why So Little International?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:50 pm

Quoting B2443 (Reply 4):
oh they have more than 6 330's. CZ, MU, as well as CA has tons of 330's. They've got 6 772ER's

Sorry, I meant that the 3 A380's, 10 787's and 6 A330's were the long haul aircraft on order, I realise they have more long haul aircraft, but they are taken up with current routes and some domestic flying.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):
China Southern is based in Guanzou, not Peking like Air China or Shanghai like China Eastern, so while still a large city not one of the top 2. CS has ha a lack of long haul planes for their needs to Europe, LAX and Australia. Their new A380 shuld help to release some 777 for new flights on existing routes or new routes.

Sure, but CAN would easily be able to sustain many many more international routes, I mean to start with I was surprised Moscow isn't served from CAN, and surely destinations like Hawaii, SFO, ORD, JFK etc would be profitable from CAN, especially with the large domestic network in China.
 
ac033
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:40 pm

RE: China Southern - Why So Little International?

Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:31 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):
China Southern is based in Guanzou, not Peking like Air China or Shanghai like China Eastern, so while still a large city not one of the top 2. CS has ha a lack of long haul planes for their needs to Europe, LAX and Australia. Their new A380 shuld help to release some 777 for new flights on existing routes or new routes.

CZ also have a hub in PEK in case you didn't know!
They have 7x A330 and 5x A380 are based at PEK. They also have intensive plan for long haul route out of PEK, with destination such as CDG, SYD, and MEL.

And they are not lack of a/c, they have 21 A330 series all capable flying CAN-European routes and 6 B777 capable flying CAN- North American Route.

Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 7):
Sure, but CAN would easily be able to sustain many many more international routes, I mean to start with I was surprised Moscow isn't served from CAN, and surely destinations like Hawaii, SFO, ORD, JFK etc would be profitable from CAN, especially with the large domestic network in China.

Good point, compare to HKG, CAN have way more domestic China destination then HKG. Its makes more easier for traveller that is heading to smaller Chinese city that is not served by any Hong Kong Airlines.

Quoting B2443 (Reply 4):
They will see that pie going away due to the high speed rail network.

Not any time soon, the high speed rail in China is extremely immature. Over-priced and numerous accidents/incidents lead to traveller prefer airplane flight then high speed rail
 
User avatar
legacyins
Posts: 1792
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 1:11 pm

RE: China Southern - Why So Little International?

Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:40 am

With the large Cantonese population in San Francisco, you would assume this would be a natural route. However, CZ schedule at LAX has been erratic and has not sustained a daily schedule. UA has been granted a route from SFO-CAN and has postponed it.

If the numbers do not add up, they are not going to start it, IMO.
 
ORDJOE
Posts: 648
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 2:27 am

RE: China Southern - Why So Little International?

Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:00 am

Quoting legacyins (Reply 9):
With the large Cantonese population in San Francisco, you would assume this would be a natural route. However, CZ schedule at LAX has been erratic and has not sustained a daily schedule. UA has been granted a route from SFO-CAN and has postponed it.

I just wonder how much of their LAX is low yielding VFR traffic. I could see SFO possibly being a better spot, you could fill the Y cabin with the Cantonese population, but CAN has a lot of manufacturing that certain tech companies of Silcone valley outsource to. My brother in law frequents CAN for his work a lot, but his company routes him through HKG and then he either takes the train or ferry. I would think there could be enough traffic from other US cities to give healthy yields,
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15215
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: China Southern - Why So Little International?

Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:15 am

Quoting legacyins (Reply 9):
With the large Cantonese population in San Francisco, you would assume this would be a natural route. However, CZ schedule at LAX has been erratic and has not sustained a daily schedule.

CAN is a pretty low yield destination for just about anything beyond domestic flying. Plus Chinese carriers are pretty much government run, and not very well at that. CAN has a big beautiful terminal--but good luck trying to connect through there, even on a domestic flight. The last few times I had to connect through Chinese airports it meant exiting security each time and clearing again.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
malaysia
Posts: 2615
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 1999 3:26 am

RE: China Southern - Why So Little International?

Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:52 am

I always feel like China Southern is an Oxymoron up north when I am in SHE. It was once a focus city for China Northern and is a transit hub in NE China, and I often see lots of China Southern Activity out of SHE since it had acquired China Northern years ago.

But yes CAN is the major hub, the new airport is not really utilized fully on the (international gate area) it could see a bit more activity, but at least the infrastructure is there for when it comes
There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
 
CZ346
Posts: 95
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:57 pm

RE: China Southern - Why So Little International?

Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:10 am

The main reason we don't fly internationally is because look what we're competing with. You can jump on a train from HKG and be here in 2 hours - and typically costs into CAN are pretty high. When I go back home I deadhead a flight up north into PEK and jump over to NYC form there. I typically spend about $500 on an RT on UA88/89 into EWR. If I do it out of HKG I pay about $900-$1100 RT. If I tried to book internationally out of CAN, I would pay $1800 - $2500.

Quoting ac033 (Reply 8):
Not any time soon, the high speed rail in China is extremely immature. Over-priced and numerous accidents/incidents lead to traveller prefer airplane flight then high speed rail

Yes and no. There was one accident up by Shanghai, but thats because when the rail service first came out they whipped in and out of cities a double set of tracks at 350kph. There have been a LOT of restrictions put in on the rail travel. I used to go up to Changsha frequently - and I ALWAYS took the train. Its really a joy to ride, and when you talk about the speed of travel I find it fairly competitive (600Y for a Business Class ticket for an 800km trip).

Quoting legacyins (Reply 9):
CZ schedule at LAX has been erratic and has not sustained a daily schedule. UA has been granted a route from SFO-CAN and has postponed it.

If the numbers do not add up, they are not going to start it, IMO.

Pretty much this. I typically operate domestic routes, but I know that the CAN - North America flights have VERY low yields. The biggest thing is that Guangzhou - even though it is a MASSIVE city, is currently (and I can't stress currently enough) mainly domestic companies. Shanghai and Beijing (not to mention HKG) have all the international company attention - so they get the most traffic. Heck, I'm a 6'3" American and I walk around the streets and EVERYONE stares at me. I've ventured into the depths of the city before and been told that I was the first westerner they had ever seen.

But that is changing. Guangzhou is REALLY focusing on international business. The past year has really seen a huge influx of westerners and western companies. We have a TON of "New Towns" shooting up left and right with 100+ story building everywhere. I've seen so many western companies move up here from HKG its not even funny. I think we will see Guangzhou blow up in the next year, and I think that will go hand in hand with us opening a pretty decently sized International network.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 11):

CAN is a pretty low yield destination for just about anything beyond domestic flying. Plus Chinese carriers are pretty much government run, and not very well at that. CAN has a big beautiful terminal--but good luck trying to connect through there, even on a domestic flight. The last few times I had to connect through Chinese airports it meant exiting security each time and clearing again.

EVERYTHING in China is pretty much government run. Internet: I cant get on Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, Bloomberg. If I Google something, they're watching. Half the time I'll be searching fine and pulling up results and then all of a sudden BOOM! Safari cant load the page. TV is barely entertaining; no reality shows, nothing with ANY crime whatsoever- basically, if its not educational, its not on.

Aviation in China? Yeah, they're still learning. Both the operators and the passengers. When I first started flying (and I usually fly at least 1 F/A that speaks english. On one of my first flights, the SECOND we touched down, I could hear EVERYONE jump up, grab their things and rush to the door. We weren't even under 100kts. Now, its rare that anyone gets up until we shut off the seatbelt sign. CAN now has a large bus system so you don't have to go outside of security (unless you're making an INTL to INTL connection).

Like I said, give them time. The country is really only about 15-20 years into the modern age and after being here for as long as I have and seeing the people and culture, they're doing very good. I think Chinese Aviation Industry hasn't even began to take off. We're where Emirates was 9 years ago.
 
HKG212
Posts: 134
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:50 pm

RE: China Southern - Why So Little International?

Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:13 am

Quoting ac033 (Reply 8):
Good point, compare to HKG, CAN have way more domestic China destination then HKG. Its makes more easier for traveller that is heading to smaller Chinese city that is not served by any Hong Kong Airlines.
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 11):
CAN has a big beautiful terminal--but good luck trying to connect through there, even on a domestic flight. The last few times I had to connect through Chinese airports it meant exiting security each time and clearing again.

Exactly. Which is why HKG is still a major gateway to China, especially from North America, despite the backtracking and far fewer frequencies to mainland China cities. Add to that the far inferior in-flight experience offered by CZ compared to CX/KA and you begin to see why their international network is not very well developed. Their customer base is mostly local O/D, which is not very high-yielding.

Quoting legacyins (Reply 9):
With the large Cantonese population in San Francisco, you would assume this would be a natural route.

Here we go again... the ethnic argument. I doubt any airline can pforitabley operate a route just linking an ethnic group to its land of origin. But in this case the issue is even more muddled: there is little connection between the Cantonese language spoken in Chinese communities around the world and the modern city of Guangzhou. Many Cantonese speakers in the U.S. are several generations removed from the motherland, and in any event probalby have more affinity with Cantonese-speaking Hong Kong than Guangzhou, many of whose current residents (which include many migrant workers) don't even speak the dialect.
 
malaysia
Posts: 2615
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 1999 3:26 am

RE: China Southern - Why So Little International?

Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:16 am

Quoting ordjoe (Reply 10):
I just wonder how much of their LAX is low yielding VFR traffic. I could see SFO possibly being a better spot, you could fill the Y cabin with the Cantonese population, but CAN has a lot of manufacturing that certain tech companies of Silcone valley outsource to. My brother in law frequents CAN for his work a lot, but his company routes him through HKG and then he either takes the train or ferry. I would think there could be enough traffic from other US cities to give healthy yields,

Well for the Guangdong natives in the Bay Area, a lot of them are already US citizens and they like to go to Hong Kong first for shopping and certain stuff then take the short train trip back home to Guangzhou for the reminder of the vacation. (also HKG has better airfare prices)
There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
 
User avatar
Plane Holland
Posts: 451
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2000 8:27 pm

RE: China Southern - Why So Little International?

Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:23 am

Maybe it has been answered somewehere else but why doesn't CZ fly the A380 tot AMS?
 
CZ346
Posts: 95
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:57 pm

RE: China Southern - Why So Little International?

Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:44 am

Quoting Plane Holland (Reply 16):

Because AMS - CAN would fill an a380 0.2%
 
LJ
Posts: 4103
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

RE: China Southern - Why So Little International?

Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:50 am

Quoting Plane Holland (Reply 16):
Maybe it has been answered somewehere else but why doesn't CZ fly the A380 tot AMS?

Because they decided to do CAN-AMS daily first, next to their daily PEK-AMS (both 330). The first European destination for the A380 will be CDG (CAN-CDG), though I haven't heard much about the this lately (same for CZ plans to start PEK-CDG and PEK-JFK). Probably has something to do with the current overcapacity on China - Europe flights at the moment or regulatory issues (if I'm not mistaken they have to receive regulatory permission to start international services with the A380).
 
User avatar
legacyins
Posts: 1792
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 1:11 pm

RE: China Southern - Why So Little International?

Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:37 am

Quoting CZ346 (Reply 13):
EVERYTHING in China is pretty much government run. Internet: I cant get on Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, Bloomberg. If I Google something, they're watching. Half the time I'll be searching fine and pulling up results and then all of a sudden BOOM! Safari cant load the page. TV is barely entertaining; no reality shows, nothing with ANY crime whatsoever- basically, if its not educational, its not on.

Oh, there is always a way around this. As an American living in Beijing, I encountered this issue with the net when I first arrived but now is as if I am at a net cafe in small town USA. As for TV, CCTV9 is always entertaining and I get a good laugh from it. As for the plethora of other stations, there are quite a few military revolutionary dramas and a lot of police spy dramas. I am watching BTV now about an architect caught up in an espionage thriller. I have a satellite dish pointing East to pick up HK,PR and SIN stations. I know it is a no no, but until then it is my connection to the Western World.

Quoting HKG212 (Reply 14):
On one of my first flights, the SECOND we touched down, I could hear EVERYONE jump up, grab their things and rush to the door. We weren't even under 100kts. Now, its rare that anyone gets up until we shut off the seatbelt sign.

I was on CA 1520, SHA-PEK, and as were taxing to the gate, everyone was up getting their luggage and standing around. Still happens at least 50% of the time on my twice a month travels within China.

Quoting HKG212 (Reply 14):
Here we go again... the ethnic argument.

It was not meant to be an argument and I do not portray it to be. It is true CZ can fill their planes from LAX,YVR and even SFO with these "ethnic" people but they are not going to make any money as they use yeild trashing consolidators to fill the Y cabin.

Quoting HKG212 (Reply 14):
But in this case the issue is even more muddled: there is little connection between the Cantonese language spoken in Chinese communities around the world and the modern city of Guangzhou. Many Cantonese speakers in the U.S. are several generations removed from the motherland,

Not in the San Francisco Bay Area. The vast majority of people are from Canton and have a strong connection to that region. It is true that when they Immigrate, they immigrate as a family unit. They do still travel back quite "regularly" and I often hear the young teenagers saying they plan on returning back after finishing the schooling in the US.
 
CZ346
Posts: 95
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:57 pm

RE: China Southern - Why So Little International?

Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:46 am

Quoting legacyins (Reply 19):
Oh, there is always a way around this. As an American living in Beijing, I encountered this issue with the net when I first arrived but now is as if I am at a net cafe in small town USA. As for TV, CCTV9 is always entertaining and I get a good laugh from it. As for the plethora of other stations, there are quite a few military revolutionary dramas and a lot of police spy dramas. I am watching BTV now about an architect caught up in an espionage thriller. I have a satellite dish pointing East to pick up HK,PR and SIN stations. I know it is a no no, but until then it is my connection to the Western World.

Oh yeah, of course. I was just responding to the response of "China Governent controls the airlines"
 
Motorhussy
Posts: 3219
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 7:49 am

RE: China Southern - Why So Little International?

Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:18 pm

And on the expansion front, CZ have been flying to AKL for just over a year now direct using A330-200 aircraft which has increased in this time from 3 x weekly to daily.

Other competition into the south comes from daily flights between AKL-HKG by both NZ and CX.

Regards
MH
come visit the south pacific
 
LJ
Posts: 4103
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

RE: China Southern - Why So Little International?

Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:24 pm

Quoting CZ346 (Reply 17):
Because AMS - CAN would fill an a380 0.2%

The rumor is that CZ had two plans for AMS for Summer 2012. The first was a daily CAN-PEK-AMS with the A380, the second being the a daily PEK-AMS and daily CAN-AMS (both 332). Fortunately for the pax it became the latter (though not for the Dutch aviation enthusiasts who hoped for the A380).
 
CZ346
Posts: 95
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:57 pm

RE: China Southern - Why So Little International?

Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:43 pm

Quoting LJ (Reply 22):

The rumor is that CZ had two plans for AMS for Summer 2012

I know - but I fly for them and I can [almost] assure you that this won't end up happening.
 
ac033
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:40 pm

RE: China Southern - Why So Little International?

Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:25 pm

Quoting LJ (Reply 22):
The rumor is that CZ had two plans for AMS for Summer 2012. The first was a daily CAN-PEK-AMS with the A380, the second being the a daily PEK-AMS and daily CAN-AMS (both 332). Fortunately for the pax it became the latter (though not for the Dutch aviation enthusiasts who hoped for the A380).

The A380 won't end up in AMS as they are training French flight attendant on the jumbo and first international destination is going to be PEK-CDG.

Quoting LJ (Reply 22):
the second being the a daily PEK-AMS and daily CAN-AMS (both 332).

Daily CAN-AMS is way too much for CZ to handle, PEK-AMS can be daily for sure.

Quoting CZ346 (Reply 13):
Heck, I'm a 6'3" American and I walk around the streets and EVERYONE stares at me. I've ventured into the depths of the city before and been told that I was the first westerner they had ever seen.

Well, you are a tall good looking person, obviously girl stare at you 
 
LJ
Posts: 4103
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

RE: China Southern - Why So Little International?

Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:15 pm

Quoting ac033 (Reply 24):
Daily CAN-AMS is way too much for CZ to handle, PEK-AMS can be daily for sure.

However CZ thinks otherwise as they will be flying CAN-AMS daily as of June 2012 (I must admit to my surprise as I thought CAN-AMS wasn't doing well)...... Apart from both CAN and AMS are Skyteam hubs, there is probably a substantial O&D market between The Netherlands (for one odd reason Chinese seem to like to have an office in The Netherlands).
 
AwysBSB
Posts: 450
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 2:58 am

RE: China Southern - Why So Little International?

Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:29 pm

A new route CZ could launch is CAN-NBO-GRU. NBO is the African hub of Sky Team and KQ currently operates an one-stop service to CAN. Furthermore, KQ has shown interest in adding GRU to its network.
Therefore, CAN-NBO-GRU could be very easily operated by a CZ's 332 3x per week.

Who is online