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jetjack74
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Rumor: DL FA Seniority Agreement Finalized

Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:22 pm

Today the Seniority Integration Committee reached an agreement clearing the final hurdle needed for integration. Key points:
Date of Hire
Date of Birth for same-day hires(RedTail methodology)
Competitive seniority for bidding(Company x-fers won't retain seniority for bidding
No loss of seniority for LOD
No loss of seniority for maternity leave
DAL base-bumping rules

[Edited 2012-02-10 13:33:24]
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DL747400
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RE: Rumor: DL FA Seniority Agreement Finalized

Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:14 am

Do longer a rumor. It is already live on DeltaNet.
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

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bhmdiversion
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RE: Rumor: DL FA Seniority Agreement Finalized

Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:25 am

From DLNet:

Date: February 10, 2012
To: All U.S.-based Delta flight attendants
From: Joanne Smith, Senior Vice President, In-Flight Service
Subject: Single flight attendant seniority list achieved



It is with tremendous pride I share with you the news that our pre-merger seniority integration committees and the company have reached agreement on a single seniority list. The consensual agreement was signed this morning. This is an historical day, and it is the FINAL step we needed to fly together on May 1.

I offer my sincere congratulations to the individuals on each of our committees. They spent untold hours, sleepless nights and poured their hearts into a single list they could be proud of, and one that was fair and equitable to the over 20,000 Delta flight attendants they represented in the process. When they concluded you could feel the joy and excitement in the room as committee members congratulated one another.

The written agreement will be posted later today, but outlines a date of hire methodology for integrating the lists including a training date adjustment where applicable for pre-merger Delta flight attendants to align with the pre-merger Northwest policy. The list also incorporates a methodology for “breaking ties” in classes where birth date order could not be used without re-ordering the list. The conditions of the agreement are typical of conditions normally found in seniority integration. The committees will spend the next few days preparing the list for posting and final verification by you later this month. For complete details, please read the signed agreement. Look for further communication from the seniority committees in the coming week.

It is indeed a happy day and the coming together of our pre-merger flight attendant SICs with this consensual agreement is symbolic of the teamwork, collegiality and respect for one another that Delta is known for. We will not just fly together, but will be BETTER TOGETHER as well.

Joanne
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Rumor: DL FA Seniority Agreement Finalized

Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:01 am

Quoting bhmdiversion (Reply 2):
The list also incorporates a methodology for “breaking ties” in classes where birth date order could not be used without re-ordering the list. The conditions of the agreement are typical of conditions normally found in seniority integration.

So now PMDL FAs in classes where the lottery was drawn, will they be rearranged according to birthday?
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Jackbr
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RE: Rumor: DL FA Seniority Agreement Finalized

Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:04 am

So, does this mean DL and PMNW crew will fly together?
 
rwy04lga
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RE: Rumor: DL FA Seniority Agreement Finalized

Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:29 am

Quoting jetjack74 (Thread starter):
Date of Birth for same-day hires(RedTail methodology)
Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 3):
So now PMDL FAs in classes where the lottery was drawn, will they be rearranged according to birthday?

When I was hired, I was given first choice of start times and days off since I was the oldest in the class. Even when listing for flights.....same seniority date?...Older employee boards first. It's nothing new at Delta and has nothing to do with Red Tails.
Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
 
cmb320
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RE: Rumor: DL FA Seniority Agreement Finalized

Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:35 am

Quoting Jackbr (Reply 4):
So, does this mean DL and PMNW crew will fly together?

Yes, our first month of flying together is May.
 
FURUREFA
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RE: Rumor: DL FA Seniority Agreement Finalized

Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:14 pm

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 5):
Older employee boards first. It's nothing new at Delta and has nothing to do with Red Tails.

Pretty sure that's not the case. At ACS bidding is indeed done by whomever is older if two employees have the same seniority date. But when it comes to non-revving, if two people have the same pass eligibility date, then its whomever checks in first.
 
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RE: Rumor: DL FA Seniority Agreement Finalized

Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:29 pm

Quoting FURUREFA (Reply 7):
Pretty sure that's not the case. At ACS bidding is indeed done by whomever is older if two employees have the same seniority date. But when it comes to non-revving, if two people have the same pass eligibility date, then its whomever checks in first.

Older employees just tend to have higher seniority  
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mayor
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RE: Rumor: DL FA Seniority Agreement Finalized

Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:54 pm

Quoting jetjack74 (Thread starter):
Date of Birth for same-day hires(RedTail methodology)

Also DL methodology......it was that way when I hired on in '71.....sure it's the same, today.

Quoting FURUREFA (Reply 7):
But when it comes to non-revving, if two people have the same pass eligibility date, then its whomever checks in first.

I think you're correct..........I think the birthdate only comes into play when bidding shifts or vacations.
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rojo
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RE: Rumor: DL FA Seniority Agreement Finalized

Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:14 pm

Quoting FURUREFA (Reply 7):
Pretty sure that's not the case. At ACS bidding is indeed done by whomever is older if two employees have the same seniority date. But when it comes to non-revving, if two people have the same pass eligibility date, then its whomever checks in first.

Gotta love AA's NonRev policy... A new employee can bump a 35 year seniority FA when NonReving!!! I don't understand why other airlines keep doing it by seniority?
 
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mayor
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RE: Rumor: DL FA Seniority Agreement Finalized

Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:42 pm

Quoting rojo (Reply 10):
Gotta love AA's NonRev policy... A new employee can bump a 35 year seniority FA when NonReving!!! I don't understand why other airlines keep doing it by seniority?

So, in your mind, those that have been there longer, don't deserve to board first? The problem with doing it by check-in time is that there are so many different ways to check-in, now, that anyone could check-in before you......hell, on DL, you can do it from home, 24 hours in advance. With all these methods, hardly seems fair to do it by check-in time.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
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etops1
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RE: Rumor: DL FA Seniority Agreement Finalized

Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:52 pm

Quoting rojo (Reply 10):

Maybe because if you have been with the company longer ,you should be able to board before someone who hasn't. Ever thought of that ??
 
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KaiGywer
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RE: Rumor: DL FA Seniority Agreement Finalized

Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:28 pm

As much as low seniority sucks when nonrevving, I still prefer that system. At least you can look forward to when you start gaining seniority and don't have to worry about getting bumped (as much).
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
thrufru
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RE: Rumor: DL FA Seniority Agreement Finalized

Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:34 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 11):
So, in your mind, those that have been there longer, don't deserve to board first? The problem with doing it by check-in time is that there are so many different ways to check-in, now, that anyone could check-in before you......hell, on DL, you can do it from home, 24 hours in advance. With all these methods, hardly seems fair to do it by check-in time.

In my career so far, I've had benefits on both Delta and American, and I can easily say that I prefer the AA method of boarding for non-rev travel, though maybe some type of compromise between seniority and check in time could be worked out. My biggest problem with seniority based listing for non-rev travel is not being bumped by a 35 year employee, but being bumped by their spouse and/or children (variations of this have happened to me countless times).

The good thing about listing based on check-in time is that everyone has the same options available to them, and AA's time window opens 4 hours prior.

Seniority accounts for so many perks and priviledges already, from bidding to vacation, to not being on reserve. It's kind of nice when an airline gives one benefit to all of it's employees equally.

Before this devolves into a discussion/debate on the merits of non-rev travel, I'd like to extend my congratulations to the F/A's of Delta for getting this matter settled.
 
rojo
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RE: Rumor: DL FA Seniority Agreement Finalized

Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:37 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 11):
So, in your mind, those that have been there longer, don't deserve to board first? The problem with doing it by check-in time is that there are so many different ways to check-in, now, that anyone could check-in before you......hell, on DL, you can do it from home, 24 hours in advance. With all these methods, hardly seems fair to do it by check-in time.

Everybody deserves the chance to board first and the best way to do it is by check in time. Seniority has brought the airline industry to where it is today... just because someone has been working for 35 years does not mean they own the company and they can have the privilege of arriving to the gate 30 minutes before departure and be on top of the list.

Quoting etops1 (Reply 12):

Maybe because if you have been with the company longer ,you should be able to board before someone who hasn't. Ever thought of that ??

Why? Give me one good reason? It is totally unfair to do it by seniority in my opinion... we are all employees and we all contribute to the company the same way = by working hard!!
 
crj200faguy
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RE: Rumor: DL FA Seniority Agreement Finalized

Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:15 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 11):
So, in your mind, those that have been there longer, don't deserve to board first? The problem with doing it by check-in time is that there are so many different ways to check-in, now, that anyone could check-in before you......hell, on DL, you can do it from home, 24 hours in advance. With all these methods, hardly seems fair to do it by check-in time.

What people don't realize is that we all need to go behind Mayor even on our own aircraft as active employees because if it weren't for him chucking bags on the wright flyer we wouldn't have a company to work for.

Retirees and Parents belong after active employees.
 
rwy04lga
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RE: Rumor: DL FA Seniority Agreement Finalized

Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:18 pm

Quoting thrufru (Reply 14):
but being bumped by their spouse and/or children

A coworker once joked that his 2 year old would board before me and I reminded him that if there were only one seat left, I would board before him or his 2 year old.
Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
 
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RE: Rumor: DL FA Seniority Agreement Finalized

Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:14 pm

Quoting crj200faguy (Reply 16):
What people don't realize is that we all need to go behind Mayor even on our own aircraft as active employees because if it weren't for him chucking bags on the wright flyer we wouldn't have a company to work for.

Aren't you guys S3 on your own planes anymore?

Quoting crj200faguy (Reply 16):
Retirees and Parents belong after active employees.

Agree, as well as children (unless accompanied by the employee)

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 17):
I reminded him that if there were only one seat left, I would board before him or his 2 year old.

  


However, this thread is about DL F/As finally flying together
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crj200faguy
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RE: Rumor: DL FA Seniority Agreement Finalized

Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:26 pm

We are S3 but children are S3 as well. I love getting beat out on my own plane by some kid who wasn't born before the date they are traveling on.
 
AA767400
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RE: Rumor: DL FA Seniority Agreement Finalized

Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:20 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 11):
So, in your mind, those that have been there longer, don't deserve to board first?

Correct. Why should you? You out bid those junior to you, and in doing so hold the better trips/shifts. Why should you also get to get on a plane before me? It's called entitlement!

Quoting etops1 (Reply 12):
Maybe because if you have been with the company longer ,you should be able to board before someone who hasn't. Ever thought of that ??

Yes I have, and I think it's the most entitled and arrogant thing to do.

Quoting thrufru (Reply 14):
In my career so far, I've had benefits on both Delta and American, and I can easily say that I prefer the AA method of boarding for non-rev travel

Hear, hear! And now you can check in 24 hours before departure.
"The low fares airline."
 
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mayor
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RE: Rumor: DL FA Seniority Agreement Finalized

Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:08 am

Quoting crj200faguy (Reply 16):
What people don't realize is that we all need to go behind Mayor even on our own aircraft as active employees because if it weren't for him chucking bags on the wright flyer we wouldn't have a company to work for.

HEY, I'm not THAT old.
 

BTW, what YOU need to realize is that ALL of you, board before me or my wife.

Quoting crj200faguy (Reply 16):

Retirees and Parents belong after active employees.

I agree on the parents, but on the Retirees, if they don't want to give us some sort of priority, how about 1 or 2, just S3 passes a year.....that doesn't hurt anyone. Now, I know that active employees have to get back to work, yada, yada......but just because I'm retired doesn't mean I like to spend all day in an airport, any more than you do.
Just since I retired, almost immediately, it was like night and day trying to nonrev on an S3B compared to an S3, there's that much difference.

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 20):
Correct. Why should you? You out bid those junior to you, and in doing so hold the better trips/shifts. Why should you also get to get on a plane before me? It's called entitlement!

There are very few rewards for working longer..........why take away the few that those with seniority do have?

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 20):
Yes I have, and I think it's the most entitled and arrogant thing to do.

One wonders if you would be singing the same song if you were in that position.
 
Quoting AA767400 (Reply 20):
Hear, hear! And now you can check in 24 hours before departure.

Same on DL.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
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KaiGywer
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RE: Rumor: DL FA Seniority Agreement Finalized

Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:08 am

Quoting crj200faguy (Reply 19):
We are S3 but children are S3 as well. I love getting beat out on my own plane by some kid who wasn't born before the date they are traveling on.

Well, that makes more sense (not that I agree). I quoted you talking about old farts like Mayor  
Quoting mayor (Reply 21):
Just since I retired, almost immediately, it was like night and day trying to nonrev on an S3B compared to an S3, there's that much difference.

DCI employees are S3C on anything except their own carrier, so you'd beat them on everything but OO/EV and the DCI employee's own carrier
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mayor
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RE: Rumor: DL FA Seniority Agreement Finalized

Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:16 am

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 22):
DCI employees are S3C on anything except their own carrier, so you'd beat them on everything but OO/EV and the DCI employee's own carrier

Them and S-4s are about the only ones behind me........now there's probably another 30,000 employees that are ahead of us, either S-2/S-3 or "one great airline" passes.

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 22):
old farts like Mayor

Not by age, but by smell
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FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: Rumor: DL FA Seniority Agreement Finalized

Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:54 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 23):
Them and S-4s are about the only ones behind me........now there's probably another 30,000 employees that are ahead of us, either S-2/S-3 or "one great airline" passes.



To be fair, you wouldn't have even seen the guys using their one great team passes because they are positive space and would be confirmed on the flight. Only different now is you can standby for a first/business class upgrade so they would appear on the airport standby list as a PSUP being confirmed in coach.

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 22):
DCI employees are S3C on anything except their own carrier, so you'd beat them on everything but OO/EV and the DCI employee's own carrier



SkyWest made a pretty big stink with Delta about the passes. Now, they're the only carrier where we (DL employees) are S3C on the DCI carrier's metal. So, if you're flying LAS-LAX, you will be S3C while OO/EV employees will be S3. Now say you're flying ATL-GSP on Pinnacle, Pinnacle and DL employees fly as S3.
What gets measured gets done.
 
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mayor
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RE: Rumor: DL FA Seniority Agreement Finalized

Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:22 am

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 24):
To be fair, you wouldn't have even seen the guys using their one great team passes because they are positive space and would be confirmed on the flight.

Yes, but they are non-revs and go before me.......I guess I sound like I'm griping too much.....maybe I was spoiled when I was active, but I had no idea that it would be this difficult to go non-rev when I retired. But with all the last minute upgrades at the gate, nowadays, it really is hard for us to plan a trip.......a flight that looks wide open in the morning, is now oversold by the time you get to the gate, several hours later.



I'm not honestly asking for much.....just one or two (plain S-3s) a year would do it and wouldn't affect that many people all that much.....the actives still would have the S-2s to go ahead of the retirees.
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VHSMM
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RE: Rumor: DL FA Seniority Agreement Finalized

Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:36 am

And people wonder why airlines are going broke...
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workhorse
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RE: Rumor: DL FA Seniority Agreement Finalized

Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:36 am

Quoting Jackbr (Reply 4):
So, does this mean DL and PMNW crew will fly together?

Oh, reading this, I just realized that it wasn't the case yet!  Wow! For some reason, I was sure that former NW and DL crews were already flying together.

So, does this mean that when I fly a 767 from MSP to CDG, for example, all of the FA are former NW people who got retrained on a 767? Or former DL people that relocated to MSP from ATL or JFK or SLC? And never a mix of both?




[Edited 2012-02-12 01:42:17]
 
RyanairGuru
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RE: Rumor: DL FA Seniority Agreement Finalized

Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:55 am

Quoting workhorse (Reply 27):
I was sure that former NW and DL crews were already flying together.

Pilots have been integrated for years

Quoting workhorse (Reply 27):
So, does this mean that when I fly a 767 from MSP to CDG, for example, all of the FA are former NW people who got retrained on a 767? Or former DL people that relocated to MSP from ATL or JFK or SLC? And never a mix of both?

The crews have been cross-trained (eg NW onto the 737 and DL onto the A320) but the two groups cannot fly together. A flight would be either all NW or all DL, with new-hirees since the merger being counted as DL.
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jetjack74
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RE: Rumor: DL FA Seniority Agreement Finalized

Sun Feb 12, 2012 11:40 am

Quoting workhorse (Reply 27):
So, does this mean that when I fly a 767 from MSP to CDG, for example, all of the FA are former NW people who got retrained on a 767? Or former DL people that relocated to MSP from ATL or JFK or SLC? And never a mix of both?

Yes they've been all PMNW flying those routes. With the exception of DTW, all PMNW international domicles remaithe purely PMNW, same with the PMDL side, other than ATL and SLC had satellite bases for NW folks for a short time
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workhorse
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RE: Rumor: DL FA Seniority Agreement Finalized

Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:21 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 28):
The crews have been cross-trained (eg NW onto the 737 and DL onto the A320) but the two groups cannot fly together. A flight would be either all NW or all DL, with new-hirees since the merger being counted as DL.
Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 29):
Yes they've been all PMNW flying those routes. With the exception of DTW, all PMNW international domicles remaithe purely PMNW, same with the PMDL side, other than ATL and SLC had satellite bases for NW folks for a short time

Thank you, that's interesting.

I asked because there was an FA with an impressively good level in French on my last flight from MSP to CDG, and I was kind of sure that I had already seen this guy on a CVG-CDG flight, but I guess I was wrong then.
 
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KaiGywer
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RE: Rumor: DL FA Seniority Agreement Finalized

Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:34 pm

Quoting workhorse (Reply 30):
I asked because there was an FA with an impressively good level in French on my last flight from MSP to CDG, and I was kind of sure that I had already seen this guy on a CVG-CDG flight, but I guess I was wrong then.

Well, his trip may have been MSP-CDG-CVG-CDG-MSP for example. I don't know if that's a "valid" trip pairing or not, but it could explain it. (Not that you flew the trip like that, but he may have had two pairings like that)
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mayor
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RE: Rumor: DL FA Seniority Agreement Finalized

Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:11 pm

Quoting VHSMM (Reply 26):
And people wonder why airlines are going broke...

But they're not.....at least on this side of the pond, with the exception of AA. Look up DL's, UA's, US' financial performance over the past couple of years.........they've done extremely well, even with fuel prices so high. Perhaps before you make remarks like this, you should know what you're talking about. I suppose you're one of those that would just as soon that airline employees get NO travel privileges, which are one of the reasons that some people take the job in the first place.  
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Rumor: DL FA Seniority Agreement Finalized

Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:52 pm

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 31):
Well, his trip may have been MSP-CDG-CVG-CDG-MSP for example. I don't know if that's a "valid" trip pairing or not, but it could explain it. (Not that you flew the trip like that, but he may have had two pairings like that)

For a short time, PMDL FAs "may" have flown MSP-CDG at one time(I seem to recall they did initially when it went to a 767), but not since 2009. And to my knowledge, PMNW have never been scheduled to CVG-CDG unless it was a one-off IROP or something. We have so many look-alikes in this job. I can't tell you how many times i've been mistaken for my alleged evil-twin 
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NWAESC
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RE: Rumor: DL FA Seniority Agreement Finalized

Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:33 pm

Quoting FURUREFA (Reply 7):
At ACS bidding is indeed done by whomever is older if two employees have the same seniority date. But

FWIW, ties were sorted by alphabetical order at NW.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 17):
A coworker once joked that his 2 year old would board before me and I reminded him that if there were only one seat left, I would board before him or his 2 year old.

Ha! Okay, that's funny.

As for the rest of it? You guys can have it; there's a reason I rarely nonrev...
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
AA767400
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RE: Rumor: DL FA Seniority Agreement Finalized

Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:10 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 21):
There are very few rewards for working longer..........why take away the few that those with seniority do have?

This is a job, not a career. Why should you be treated better because you've been here longer? Oh that's right, because you feel entitled.

Quoting mayor (Reply 21):
One wonders if you would be singing the same song if you were in that position.

Of course you would say that. But in the end, it's all about being fair and equal. Not stepping on the junior ones, who by the way are the ones keeping you off reserve, and doing the undesirable trips/shifts.

Quoting mayor (Reply 21):
Same on DL.

I know that since my friends work for DL. However my comment was directed to thrufru, who prefers AA's system.

My point stands. Yours the old school, and mine the new school. So we'll have to agree to disagree. But when you've been at the bottom for so long, with a stagnant work group, and paying your "dues" for 15 plus years, while those on top served 6 months of "dues" if that, then you'll really feel the burn.
"The low fares airline."
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: Rumor: DL FA Seniority Agreement Finalized

Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:08 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 25):
Yes, but they are non-revs and go before me.......I guess I sound like I'm griping too much.....maybe I was spoiled when I was active, but I had no idea that it would be this difficult to go non-rev when I retired. But with all the last minute upgrades at the gate, nowadays, it really is hard for us to plan a trip.......a flight that looks wide open in the morning, is now oversold by the time you get to the gate, several hours later.

They go before everyone Mayor! LOL. They are positive space. Something funny but if you book positive space and there are no seats available for assignment at the time of your booking (only thing left are blocked seats, you will show "confirmed" just like any other pax and on the day of departure, you will be put on the HK list (shows as an HK). With all positive space being booked in M class, you can be ahead of quite a few revenue pax. That's happened to me before.

Quoting workhorse (Reply 27):
Oh, reading this, I just realized that it wasn't the case yet! For some reason, I was sure that former NW and DL crews were already flying together.

PMNW F/As do fly with PMDL pilots (PMNW and PMDL pilots has been flying together for quite a few years now as they're been under a single contract).

Quoting nwaesc (Reply 34):
FWIW, ties were sorted by alphabetical order at NW.

At EV, in your initial class, seniority was determained by the last 4 of your social which I think is the most fair way to do it (along with alphabetical as that's random too). PMCO did this as well (last 4). I'm not sure how the combined CO/UA group does it now.
What gets measured gets done.
 
PGNCS
Posts: 2249
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RE: Rumor: DL FA Seniority Agreement Finalized

Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:23 am

Quoting thrufru (Reply 14):
In my career so far, I've had benefits on both Delta and American, and I can easily say that I prefer the AA method of boarding for non-rev travel

I bet. I wonder how much seniority you could have had in either system?

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 20):
Why should you also get to get on a plane before me? It's called entitlement!

Because they earned the right by being there for years and you haven't.

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 20):
Quoting etops1 (Reply 12):
Maybe because if you have been with the company longer ,you should be able to board before someone who hasn't. Ever thought of that ??


Yes I have, and I think it's the most entitled and arrogant thing to do.

Given your age and what your seniority would be I am unsurprised. Given that you are in a generation that notoriously feels entitled (numerous books have been written on the subject) and after reading your other arguments I am not shocked to hear that you believe that on your first day in the door you should be able to ride preferentially to someone who has worked 40 years at the company. There is definitely entitlement and arrogance here, but not where you claim.

Quoting mayor (Reply 21):
Quoting AA767400 (Reply 20):
Yes I have, and I think it's the most entitled and arrogant thing to do.

One wonders if you would be singing the same song if you were in that position.

No kidding.

Quoting mayor (Reply 25):
I guess I sound like I'm griping too much.....maybe I was spoiled when I was active, but I had no idea that it would be this difficult to go non-rev when I retired

It's hard when you are active, believe me (and it's not airline specific.)

Quoting VHSMM (Reply 26):
And people wonder why airlines are going broke...

Tell us why? How does this off the cuff, unreasoned comment relate to anything under discussion here?

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 35):
Quoting mayor (Reply 21):
There are very few rewards for working longer..........why take away the few that those with seniority do have?

This is a job, not a career. Why should you be treated better because you've been here longer? Oh that's right, because you feel entitled.

Because it IS a career for most of us. You are the one who feels entitled, not the veteran employees. They put in their time being junior and many of them have taken gigantic pay and benefit cuts and been furloughed (I've done all of these, and I am nowhere near senior) and deserve to ride before people who have sacrificed comparatively nothing for their respective companies.

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 35):
Quoting mayor (Reply 21):
One wonders if you would be singing the same song if you were in that position.

Of course you would say that. But in the end, it's all about being fair and equal. Not stepping on the junior ones, who by the way are the ones keeping you off reserve, and doing the undesirable trips/shifts.

And the senior ones have certainly done their share of sacrificing, flying and working holidays and awful schedules, and sitting on reserve. Just like the people before them.

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 35):
But when you've been at the bottom for so long, with a stagnant work group, and paying your "dues" for 15 plus years, while those on top served 6 months of "dues" if that, then you'll really feel the burn.

Yeah, nobody else here sacrificed except Gen X and Y. Get real. Many of these employees have been working at their companies longer than you have been alive. Do the job, get in line, you can be senior one day too if you have the wherewithal to make a career of it.
 
AA767400
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RE: Rumor: DL FA Seniority Agreement Finalized

Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:52 am

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 37):
Given your age and what your seniority would be I am unsurprised. Given that you are in a generation that notoriously feels entitled (numerous books have been written on the subject) and after reading your other arguments I am not shocked to hear that you believe that on your first day in the door you should be able to ride preferentially to someone who has worked 40 years at the company. There is definitely entitlement and arrogance here, but not where you claim.

Well, that's great that you're generalizing my age group, and myself personally. Shocked to believe that I should ride before someone else? What you're saying is unfair, and based on an antiquated seniority system that keeps those at the top on top, making it impossible for any growth in the work group.

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 37):
Because it IS a career for most of us. You are the one who feels entitled, not the veteran employees. They put in their time being junior and many of them have taken gigantic pay and benefit cuts and been furloughed (I've done all of these, and I am nowhere near senior) and deserve to ride before people who have sacrificed comparatively nothing for their respective companies.

For a PILOT it is, but not for a FA. And if you think it is, I'm the one that feels sorry for you.

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 37):
And the senior ones have certainly done their share of sacrificing, flying and working holidays and awful schedules, and sitting on reserve. Just like the people before them.

I take it you work for DL/NW since you live in MSP, and because you don't know the logistics for FAs at AA. Do you know how long they sat reserve? Or worked on holidays?

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 37):
Yeah, nobody else here sacrificed except Gen X and Y. Get real. Many of these employees have been working at their companies longer than you have been alive. Do the job, get in line, you can be senior one day too if you have the wherewithal to make a career of it.

LOL! That's exactly the problem. Longer than I have been alive! Make it a career huh? Who in this country can make a career living off of $40K? So you've been here longer than I've been alive, yet because you chose to stay here, you should be entitled to bump me off a flight that I've been waiting for all day?

You should look at the facts for your group, and not the FA group which are two totally different animals. Pilots have a different take on seniority, and how one treats their more junior colleagues. I've seen how a pilot jump seating does not get a meal because he's fellow jump seater is senior to him. Seniority is for BIDDING purposes only. It's not a way of making yourself feel more important, or worse making someone else feel like they're less. A company should be a team, not a caste system.
"The low fares airline."
 
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mayor
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RE: Rumor: DL FA Seniority Agreement Finalized

Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:33 am

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 35):
Of course you would say that. But in the end, it's all about being fair and equal. Not stepping on the junior ones, who by the way are the ones keeping you off reserve, and doing the undesirable trips/shifts.

Not all of us were F/As, so, no reserve.

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 35):
This is a job, not a career. Why should you be treated better because you've been here longer? Oh that's right, because you feel entitled.

For some of us, it was a career. I guess it depends on what department you were in. I'd say, if I stuck around for more than 33 years, it was more than just a "job".

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 35):
But when you've been at the bottom for so long, with a stagnant work group, and paying your "dues" for 15 plus years, while those on top served 6 months of "dues" if that, then you'll really feel the burn.

How do you figure that those at the top hadn't paid their dues, also? I spent plenty of time, working out in bad weather (ORD) for 8 1/2 years........standing in snow and slush, temps below zero, loading and unloading aircraft. I'm not saying I was better than anyone else, but I certainly paid my dues and I'm not alone.

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 37):

              



Thank you very much!!

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 38):

Sorry, but you just pegged the BS meter on this one.


BTW, I think I did very well in my career at $40k a year. I have no regrets and while I wasn't in a flying job, I spent many a holiday, working.......also working crappy shifts in bad weather. However, I didn't spend my junior years with the company, bitching about it......I just did my job and knew that, someday, I would be senior and could bid the way I wanted to. Must be a generational thing.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
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DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 1786
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RE: Rumor: DL FA Seniority Agreement Finalized

Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:27 am

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 36):

At EV, in your initial class, seniority was determained by the last 4 of your social which I think is the most fair way to do it (along with alphabetical as that's random too).

Hmmm... My company does that too. Until I took that job, I'd never seen it before. Seems like a pretty fair way to go.

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 37):
There is definitely entitlement and arrogance here, but not where you claim.

There is, but it's more even then you think. This really is very much a two way street at most places.

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 37):

Because it IS a career for most of us.

I'll agree with that. I've had a lot of jobs in my "career" on the ramp, and outside of furlough issues, the seniority thing really doesn't bother me much. Like most of us, I work a lot of crap days & shifts. But when I do, I often also remember that hanging out with airplanes is what I daydreamed about when I was a kid anyway. So if it's really that bad, then what the hell am I doing there anyway, right?

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 37):
You are the one who feels entitled, not the veteran employees.

There are plenty of veteran employees with bad cases of entitlmentitis. It's all I can do to get some folks up of their arses to meet a plane at times.


Quoting AA767400 (Reply 38):
For a PILOT it is, but not for a FA. And if you think it is, I'm the one that feels sorry for you.

Why can't someone make a career out of being an FA? Or a ramper? Or a fueler? Or a mechanic? Having done all of those things myself, I can't ever remember hating any of them. Certainly not enough to forsake taking home good money for it...

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 38):
Longer than I have been alive! Make it a career huh? Who in this country can make a career living off of $40K?

Lots of people do. But even if that were not good enough, as you seem to think, what's stopping one from stringing together two jobs to make it work? I'd rather put in 60hrs a week to make $75 a year doing something I love or at least really like, than make $80 at a 40hr boring, non-aviation job. When one spends so much of their waking hours at work, there's more than just cash per hour to consider.
You Sir, are a very funny lady.
 
quiet1
Posts: 282
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 7:39 am

RE: Rumor: DL FA Seniority Agreement Finalized

Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:35 pm

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 38):
Well, that's great that you're generalizing my age group, and myself personally. Shocked to believe that I should ride before someone else? What you're saying is unfair, and based on an antiquated seniority system that keeps those at the top on top, making it impossible for any growth in the work group.

Just out of curiosity, is anything in your workgroup governed by senioirty, like bidding schedules or vacations? Why?
 
tommy767
Posts: 4658
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 12:18 pm

RE: Rumor: DL FA Seniority Agreement Finalized

Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:44 pm

Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 33):
For a short time, PMDL FAs "may" have flown MSP-CDG at one time(I seem to recall they did initially when it went to a 767), but not since 2009. And to my knowledge, PMNW have never been scheduled to CVG-CDG unless it was a one-off IROP or something. We have so many look-alikes in this job. I can't tell you how many times i've been mistaken for my alleged evil-twin

PMNW I know do the EWR-AMS routing. Now that the seniority agreement has been finalized, I'm sure this means PMDL NYC crews can operate it as well.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
rojo
Posts: 2254
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 6:08 am

RE: Rumor: DL FA Seniority Agreement Finalized

Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:34 pm

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 37):
Because they earned the right by being there for years and you haven't.

Unless you own the company (and I mean enough voting shares that will give you a majority stake to control decision making) you are not entitled to anything but payment for the hours you work. Why do people keep thinking that they deserve everything just for being loyal employees to a company. Those days are gone... The Japanese work style proved to be a failure with 2 decades of stagnation.

Every major airline has been in Chapter 11 for that particular reason... high labor costs that are unsustainable.

And people then wonder why low cost carriers have been killing the majors/flag carriers/legacies in almost every part of the world!!!!!

I am glad that NW and DL FA finally reached an agreement, but it is amazing that it takes years to integrate a work force just because of Seniority issues. And it is not ony DL, but US and WN and so on...

In the end, the airline industry is one of the most complex industries in this world and with low profit margins (if profitable at all), no wonder why it does not attract the best talent out there... you need to have a pasion for it!
 
crj200faguy
Posts: 180
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 12:07 pm

RE: Rumor: DL FA Seniority Agreement Finalized

Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:01 pm

I don't think most people begrudge active employees going ahead of them who have worked here a long time. It's people like Mayor who "don't have time to sit around the airport all day" that piss people off. You are retired and certainly have more time to sit around the airport than the rest of us who work. You don't deserve to go ahead of us and should be S3CR. That's fair.
 
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mayor
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RE: Rumor: DL FA Seniority Agreement Finalized

Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:11 pm

Quoting crj200faguy (Reply 44):
I don't think most people begrudge active employees going ahead of them who have worked here a long time. It's people like Mayor who "don't have time to sit around the airport all day" that piss people off. You are retired and certainly have more time to sit around the airport than the rest of us who work. You don't deserve to go ahead of us and should be S3CR. That's fair.

Well, that's the typical response I expect to get anymore in regards to respect for your elders, no matter the subject. Would it REALLY hurt you if I only got 1 or two S3s a year? Besides I'm not even talking about the priorities on your own metal.....I have no problem with OO or Pinnacle or whoever riding ahead of me on their own metal........I'm talking about MAINLINE flights.

But, I don't expect things to change and I can live with that, but, think of this.....SOMEDAY you'll be in this position.....I only wish I was around to hear your opinions, then.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
crj200faguy
Posts: 180
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 12:07 pm

RE: Rumor: DL FA Seniority Agreement Finalized

Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:08 pm

I don't begrudge you 1-2 s3s a year. as long as you would agree to take s3cr priority the rest of the time. I won't be in your position because I dont get retiree passes. you always play the poor unappreciated retiree. Get over it. You dont deserve passes and certainly not the priority you get. The airline owes you nothing.
 
Super80DFW
Posts: 856
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RE: Rumor: DL FA Seniority Agreement Finalized

Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:18 am

Being a non-revenue traveler on AA, I've become partial to the way they handle the standby list. I wouldn't be against AA changing this system to a seniority based system, as long as a spouse/child/retiree who is traveling without the employee, boarded before me. It's my understanding that DL chooses to board standby's in seniority order, and I think no active employee should ever be boarded after a retiree (not sure if it works that way).
"Things change, friends leave, life doesn't stop for anybody." -- EAT'EM UP EAT'EM UP KSU!!
 
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mayor
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RE: Rumor: DL FA Seniority Agreement Finalized

Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:46 am

Quoting rojo (Reply 43):

I am glad that NW and DL FA finally reached an agreement, but it is amazing that it takes years to integrate a work force just because of Seniority issues. And it is not ony DL, but US and WN and so on...

It wasn't seniority issues that held things up between the DL & NW F/As......it was representation and they had to vote and then the AFA filed a claim after they lost.....the NMB investigated and found no wrongdoing on DL's part and then they could go forward.

Quoting crj200faguy (Reply 46):
I don't begrudge you 1-2 s3s a year. as long as you would agree to take s3cr priority the rest of the time. I won't be in your position because I dont get retiree passes. you always play the poor unappreciated retiree. Get over it. You dont deserve passes and certainly not the priority you get. The airline owes you nothing.

Since YOU don't work for DL, and I DID, I take what you say with a grain of salt. If it was someone from DL talking, I could have a discussion, but since it's ONLY you, I'll not worry myself about it. Don't blame DL or ME for what happened when DL and your airline negotiated the pass privileges......blame those in your own airline.

As for being unappreciated, maybe I am......particularly by people like you that don't appreciate those that went before them. And since you DON'T work for DL, I don't believe you have any right to say what DL does or doesn't owe me. Why should someone, from another airline (which you are, whether you're contracting to DL or not) board before me, someone that put in the time WITH DL? That would be like saying that someone from UA or AA should board before me or any other retiree.

BTW, what IS your reasoning as to why you don't think I or any retiree deserve passes? Is it just a personal thing or are your feelings just hurt, huh?
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
ASFlyer
Posts: 1253
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:25 pm

RE: Rumor: DL FA Seniority Agreement Finalized

Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:43 am

Quoting rojo (Reply 43):
Every major airline has been in Chapter 11 for that particular reason... high labor costs that are unsustainable.

Every "major" airline has NOT been in bankruptcy. Unless, of course, you only consider DL/NW, UA/CO and US to be "major". AS, WN and B6 have all done it without going through the bankruptcy courts. In fact, AS, has the highest profit margin and highest stock price of any U.S. airline. They are also heavily unionized and, by the way, a "major" carrier. They just didn't subscribe to the "be everything to everyone" theory the bankrupt carriers did.

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