joepatroniyx
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Latest F9 Cut: BOS

Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:17 pm

Although Frontier had originally planned to add one BOS-MKE frequency starting April 16th, this is no longer the case. Although this isn't much of a surprise, considering the pull down of MKE recently, it only leaves BOS connected to the network with one thru flight: BOS-MCI-DEN. I know BOS-DEN has competition with WN, B6, and UA all flying the route, but it seems hard to believe there is no money to be made connecting people from BOS to not only DEN but to other cities on the west coast beyond Denver. Instead, Frontier seems to be pinning its future on backwater towns in the middle of nowhere, where yes there is little to no competition, but also a limited market. A major east coast city like Boston, with a high percentage of business traffic seems like it should be a part of any airline's network. I hope Frontier doesn't end service to Boston completely for a second time. How about adding other cities from Boston? Like OMA or STL?
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: Latest F9 Cut: BOS

Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:30 pm

The unintended consequence is that with the freeing up of that one gate, moving UA into the B Concourse and staying on the USAirways side might now be possible.

However I do wish F9 great luck with their newly announced stations
 
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mariner
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RE: Latest F9 Cut: BOS

Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:38 pm

Quoting JoePatroniYX (Thread starter):
I know BOS-DEN has competition with WN, B6, and UA all flying the route, but it seems hard to believe there is no money to be made connecting people from BOS to not only DEN but to other cities on the west coast beyond Denver.

Who wants to be the fourth airline on a long thin route like DEN=BOS with fuel at these prices?

Quoting JoePatroniYX (Thread starter):
I hope Frontier doesn't end service to Boston completely for a second time.

You can blame Massport for that first departure. When terminal A was being remodeled after 9/11 and Frontier needed a gate, Massport told the airline to pound sand - that there were plenty of gates at MHT and PVD.

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joepatroniyx
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RE: Latest F9 Cut: BOS

Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:43 pm

I would argue that JetBlue would be the "fourth" airline on a long thin route like BOS-DEN since they have no connecting opportunities in DEN. Yet somehow they make it work.
 
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mariner
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RE: Latest F9 Cut: BOS

Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:51 pm

Quoting JoePatroniYX (Reply 3):
I would argue that JetBlue would be the "fourth" airline on a long thin route like BOS-DEN since they have no connecting opportunities in DEN. Yet somehow they make it work.


There are three airlines flying DEN-BOS. Frontier would be the fourth on the route.

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GentFromAlaska
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RE: Latest F9 Cut: BOS

Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:10 pm

Quoting JoePatroniYX (Thread starter):
it only leaves BOS connected to the network with one thru flight: BOS-MCI-DEN

For the sake of curiosity I priced F9 DEN-MCI-BOS flight outbound on May 8 returning the following Monday At a whopping round-trip price of $842.00 I suspect this won't last to long either. Who can afford it.

AA has the round-trip priced on the same days at $207.00 with all fees/taxes via DFW. Both B6 and WN are pricing at $440-ish B6 departure is a reverse red-eye departing BOS around 11:30 PM My use of reverse red-eye indicates a East to West flight vice a West to East flight which would normally take advantage of the time zone changes by departing late and arriving early.
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kcrwflyer
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RE: Latest F9 Cut: BOS

Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:15 pm

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 5):
For the sake of curiosity I priced F9 DEN-MCI-BOS flight outbound on May 8 returning the following Monday At a whopping round-trip price of $842.00 I suspect this won't last to long either. Who can afford it.

Do you think F9's intent is to actually carry pax DEN-MCI-BOS? It may be a thru-flight but I'd think the MCI-BOS segment relies on o&d between the two cities.
 
GentFromAlaska
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RE: Latest F9 Cut: BOS

Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:43 pm

Quoting Kcrwflyer (Reply 6):

F9 MCI-BOS on the same metal; flight 815 outbound and #820 on the return using the same dates May 9 and May 14 prices for $479.60

The other service I found was AA and a AA/US combo via ORD for $297.20 and $307.20. CO also offers service between the two airports via IAH and ORD which came in less. Surprisingly I didn't anything via EWR. I suppose this is a post merger thing.

One of AA flights to between MCI-ORD was on a E145. Given F9 flight is non-stop on the MCI-BOS segment I'm not convinced their price of $479.60 is justified O&D or otherwise.
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MAV88
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RE: Latest F9 Cut: BOS

Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:07 pm

I don't know if I would call BOS-DEN a long and thin route. There is a solid demand between Boston and Denver.

What is the schedule like for BOS-MCI?
 
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mariner
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RE: Latest F9 Cut: BOS

Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:15 pm

Quoting MAV88 (Reply 8):
I don't know if I would call BOS-DEN a long and thin route. There is a solid demand between Boston and Denver.

It is certainly long - at least in Frontier terms - and with three airlines already on the route it becomes thin for others. Demand on any route is finite.

Mostly, I am not sure why every US airline has to fly everywhere, even when "there" is already very well served.

In fact, Frontier is the 4th airline on the route. Until April it is flying a 1 x weekly repo - bookable - DEN-BOS for the Apple Vacations flights on the week-ends from BOS.

mariner

[Edited 2012-02-12 11:23:52]
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airbazar
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RE: Latest F9 Cut: BOS

Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:51 pm

Quoting JoePatroniYX (Thread starter):
I know BOS-DEN has competition with WN, B6, and UA all flying the route, but it seems hard to believe there is no money to be made connecting people from BOS to not only DEN but to other cities on the west coast beyond Denver.

I'm surprised too, especially since DEN is a F9 hub, supposedly F9 has a strong Denver customer base, and they had time to establish the route before B6 and WN joined in.

Quoting mariner (Reply 2):
Who wants to be the fourth airline on a long thin route like DEN=BOS with fuel at these prices?

IIRC, F9 was the second carrier to serve this route, not 4th. They were flying it before B6 and WN started the route.
 
BOStonsox
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RE: Latest F9 Cut: BOS

Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:14 pm

Quoting JoePatroniYX (Reply 3):
I would argue that JetBlue would be the "fourth" airline on a long thin route like BOS-DEN since they have no connecting opportunities in DEN. Yet somehow they make it work.

BOS is B6's second-largest hub and a third of all pax here is business, so that is how they make it work. F9 and WN are LCCs who get more leisure pax, and there aren't too many places beyond DEN that they connect to that either UA also serves or B6 flies non-stop from BOS.
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mariner
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RE: Latest F9 Cut: BOS

Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:18 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 10):
IIRC, F9 was the second carrier to serve this route, not 4th. They were flying it before B6 and WN started the route.

See post #2 - Massport wouldn't give Frontier a gate but told them to go to MHT or PVD:

Quoting mariner (Reply 2):
You can blame Massport for that first departure. When terminal A was being remodeled after 9/11 and Frontier needed a gate, Massport told the airline to pound sand - that there were plenty of gates at MHT and PVD.

Business had fallen off a cliff after 9/11 and Frontier couldn't afford what US Airways wanted for use of a gate. So it left.

I believe that airlines should fly (a) where they are welcome and (b) where can make money.

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Bobloblaw
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RE: Latest F9 Cut: BOS

Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:32 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 4):
There are three airlines flying DEN-BOS. Frontier would be the fourth on the route.

The 4th doesnt necessairly mean the order in which they started service. While there is benefit to being a "first mover" F9 would have better connecting opportunities than B6 could ever hope for and F9 would do much better with the DEN passengers point of sale
 
HPRamper
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RE: Latest F9 Cut: BOS

Sun Feb 12, 2012 11:03 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 2):
Who wants to be the fourth airline on a long thin route like DEN=BOS with fuel at these prices?
Quoting mariner (Reply 9):
Mostly, I am not sure why every US airline has to fly everywhere, even when "there" is already very well served.

I don't think I would lump BOS in with just any other markets. It's a major market. Maybe if we were just talking about DEN-BOS O&D...but we are taking into consideration the feed from nearly the entire F9 network. One wouldn't think it would be a problem filling one stinkin' flight, even if it were only a 319.
 
gustywinds
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RE: Latest F9 Cut: BOS

Sun Feb 12, 2012 11:19 pm

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 14):
One wouldn't think it would be a problem filling one stinkin' flight, even if it were only a 319.


But why does F9 need BOS if B6, UA and WN already fly DEN-BOS? Why does F9 need to fly one A319 a day from DEN when they could fly a couple round trips to a closer destination with less competition? F9 cannot be all things to all people. Not every airline needs to serve every destination.

F9 doesn't feel the need to fly DEN to SJC, CLT, RDU, BHM, MIA, MEM, PIT, CVG, BUF, SYR, JAX, PBI, EWR, BWI and the list goes on and on. I get more excited to see out of the box thinking (GTF, BLI, BMI, CID, PHF, PUJ).
 
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mariner
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RE: Latest F9 Cut: BOS

Sun Feb 12, 2012 11:24 pm

Quoting BobLoblaw (Reply 13):
The 4th doesnt necessairly mean the order in which they started service. While there is benefit to being a "first mover" F9 would have better connecting opportunities than B6 could ever hope for and F9 would do much better with the DEN passengers point of sale

Thanks 9/11 - and Massport.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 14):
I don't think I would lump BOS in with just any other markets.

I don't see anyone chucking a mental because Allegiant doesn't serve BOS. And "major market" it may be, but some of the January loads MKE-BOS on the other airline have been pretty frightening.

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atrude777
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RE: Latest F9 Cut: BOS

Sun Feb 12, 2012 11:32 pm

I am confused...The topic states F9 is dropping BOS as a station right? Ie the "Latest F9 Cut:BOS"?

Otherwise, all of the posts I am reading and checking says F9 still operates BOS-MCI, so BOS is NOT getting cut?

What's happening is that F9 is simply reducing BOS, and cutting BOS-MKE, but still keeping the station? The title needs to clarify it's just MKE-BOS and not BOS as a station.

On the outside, ya it is surprising F9 doesn't fly BOS-DEN, but that doesn't mean F9 needs to or it would make F9 money. The network overall though should say that BOS-DEN-XXX would be great for Frontier, but it seems clear that F9 doesn't think they can penetrate and make it work and is happy to let the other carriers fly it themselves.

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HPRamper
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RE: Latest F9 Cut: BOS

Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:22 am

Quoting gustywinds (Reply 15):
But why does F9 need BOS if B6, UA and WN already fly DEN-BOS? Why does F9 need to fly one A319 a day from DEN when they could fly a couple round trips to a closer destination with less competition? F9 cannot be all things to all people. Not every airline needs to serve every destination.

Like I said already, it's not so much about DEN-BOS the leg, but F9 network-BOS. It's simply excluding anyone wanting to fly to BOS from even flying on F9. Seems counterproductive especially seeing that MKE has been a disaster and MCI hasn't knocked anyone's socks off.

Quoting mariner (Reply 16):
I don't see anyone chucking a mental because Allegiant doesn't serve BOS. And "major market" it may be, but some of the January loads MKE-BOS on the other airline have been pretty frightening.

What about the DEN-BOS loads? I sort of want to avoid any statistic involving MKE because it's just a godawful mess right now. I have this feeling that F9 would be better off pulling nearly completely out of MKE save a handful of routes.
 
gustywinds
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RE: Latest F9 Cut: BOS

Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:31 am

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 18):
It's simply excluding anyone wanting to fly to BOS from even flying on F9.

I understand that, of course, but I can only repeat that F9 does not need to be all things to all people. There are other markets that WN doesn't fly to that F9 does. Does that exclude anyone wanting to fly to SBA from even flying on WN? Gas prices have risen 20 cents in 3 weeks. The news just reported it could go up another 60 cents by Memorial Day. It is expected to be the highest ever this summer. F9 does not need to burn fuel on such a long, thin, overly competitve route such as DEN-BOS.
 
point2point
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RE: Latest F9 Cut: BOS

Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:35 am

Quoting gustywinds (Reply 15):
But why does F9 need BOS
Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 17):
but that doesn't mean F9 needs to or it would make F9 money

I would assume that as long as F9 has the Apple Vacations flights between BOS-CUN/PUJ, then there will probably be the need to fly into and out of BOS for that simple reason of having the aircraft available for the above flights. Even if it's once or twice weekly and seasonally, F9 might as well attempt to sell that seats on the planes between the city the aircraft is in and BOS that do the re-positioning flights, correct? Anything after that, well, if F9 feels that this is the best for them making them as much $$$ as they can, then do it.... if not... then find another place to use the planes.

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 17):
F9 is simply reducing BOS, and cutting BOS-MKE, but still keeping the station?

I would imagine that as long as the Apple Vacation flights happen there, then BOS is a station.

Quoting gustywinds (Reply 15):
BUF,
Quoting gustywinds (Reply 15):
PBI,


and along with RIC, these three stations, per DOT numbers, are the three biggest stations that do not have n/s DEN service, and all three of them could pretty much fill an A319 both to and from, at least daily, and probably in most of the months of the year. Add to that ALB, a Florida peninsula station like ECP or PNS, and maybe a Carolina station like GSO or CAE, or a resort destination in that area like MYR or SAV, and the route map could be quite strong. And I would think that a number of these would have incentives (something F9 likes and I don't blame them) and with that we're off.

And now, after all that, I don't think that too much is going to be happening until whatever transaction RAH will want for F9 has happened.


 
 
kcrwflyer
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RE: Latest F9 Cut: BOS

Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:36 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 2):
Who wants to be the fourth airline on a long thin route like DEN=BOS with fuel at these prices?
Quoting JoePatroniYX (Reply 3):
I would argue that JetBlue would be the "fourth" airline on a long thin route like BOS-DEN since they have no connecting opportunities in DEN. Yet somehow they make it work.
Quoting mariner (Reply 4):
There are three airlines flying DEN-BOS. Frontier would be the fourth on the route.

This debate of being "fourth" is all about the numerical order in which an airline started service. Which I thought mariner clarified.

Quoting BobLoblaw (Reply 13):
The 4th doesnt necessairly mean the order in which they started service.

Yes! That's all it means in the context of this conversation. If there are three airlines flying a route, and another adds service, that airline is now the fourth on that route.
 
gustywinds
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RE: Latest F9 Cut: BOS

Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:03 am

Quoting point2point (Reply 20):
I would assume that as long as F9 has the Apple Vacations flights between BOS-CUN/PUJ, then there will probably be the need to fly into and out of BOS for that simple reason of having the aircraft available for the above flights.
F9 certainly doesn't have to have a station in BOS because of the Apple flying there, but I'm glad they do. I like the one flight a week from DEN to BOS, but the loads are hit or miss. F9 flies Apple stuff out of CVG, ORD & BWI, for example, and they don't have scheduled service to those airports. I believe ORD repos from MDW. BWI repos from PHL, And CVG repos from CAK. F9 even operates an aircraft from ORD to STL which continues STL to LIR. However, you cannot buy tickets on the ORD - STL leg but you can buy a ticket ORD - LIR with the STL stop.

I like your wish list of markets. These are the opportunities that F9 will be best to take advantage of.

[Edited 2012-02-12 17:13:29]

[Edited 2012-02-12 17:14:23]
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: Latest F9 Cut: BOS

Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:22 am

"I would argue that JetBlue would be the "fourth" airline on a long thin route like BOS-DEN since they have no connecting opportunities in DEN. Yet somehow they make it work."

I think DEN is a mess for B6. Token redeye to JFK and token redeye and day flight to BOS just to take a stand against WN when they entered the market.
 
jcarv
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RE: Latest F9 Cut: BOS

Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:27 am

Well the Apple Vacations flying ends April 29th for BOS and I don't know if they got the contract next winter. It was previously flown by AirTran for 2 years.
 
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mariner
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RE: Latest F9 Cut: BOS

Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:38 am

Quoting jcarv (Reply 24):
Well the Apple Vacations flying ends April 29th for BOS and I don't know if they got the contract next winter. It was previously flown by AirTran for 2 years.

Sure. But Frontier's contract with Apple is for seven years and the Frontier CEO expects the Apple flying to "nearly double" next winter.

I don't know yet if that will inlcude BOS, but PIT (CUN and PUJ) goes from Airtran to Frontier next winter, as does BWI-PUJ.

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HermansCVR580
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RE: Latest F9 Cut: BOS

Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:44 am

Ok Frontier you had your chance to poop now its time to get off the pot in MKE it did not work for you that is ok, but its time to go now spread your wings else where.
The right decision at the wrong time, is still a wrong decision. "Hal Carr"
 
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mariner
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RE: Latest F9 Cut: BOS

Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:07 am

Quoting HermansCVR580 (Reply 26):
Ok Frontier you had your chance to poop now its time to get off the pot in MKE it did not work for you that is ok, but its time to go now spread your wings else where.

What an extraordinary attitude.

If Frontier can make money flying ten or six, or three or four routes from MKE, or two or three - or even just one - why does that offend you and what damage does it do to MKE? Most airports welcome airlines.

Frontier's presence in MKE has not hindered Southwest/Airtran in any way (the present cuts probably enhance that position) and surely hasn't hindered Delta.

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HermansCVR580
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RE: Latest F9 Cut: BOS

Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:51 am

I think by now Frontier should know which cities they are making money from at MKE and which ones they are not making money on. It just gets a bit old with all these cuts, and then a few weeks later they cut some more. They should have just announced here are the cities we are cutting and these are the cities we are keeping because we can make money at flying to them from MKE. You can only cut so much fat before you cut bone, and Frontier is getting close to bone. I know they still have 9-10 routes out of MKE, yeah 9-10 for now but for how long? I say if you are done with the cuts then great, but if not then just get it done and over with all ready, that is where my whole poop or get of the pot comes from.

So no not really an attitude more of an observation and a bit of frustration with the way that Frontier is handling this. They really are not getting any brownie points in the MKE market with the way they have gone about this whole thing.
The right decision at the wrong time, is still a wrong decision. "Hal Carr"
 
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mariner
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RE: Latest F9 Cut: BOS

Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:14 am

Quoting HermansCVR580 (Reply 28):
I think by now Frontier should know which cities they are making money from at MKE and which ones they are not making money on. It just gets a bit old with all these cuts, and then a few weeks later they cut some more. They should have just announced here are the cities we are cutting and these are the cities we are keeping because we can make money at flying to them from MKE. You can only cut so much fat before you cut bone, and Frontier is getting close to bone. I know they still have 9-10 routes out of MKE, yeah 9-10 for now but for how long? I say if you are done with the cuts then great, but if not then just get it done and over with all ready, that is where my whole poop or get of the pot comes from.

And you don't think competitive circumstances change? You don't think that what Southwest is doing - or Delta - changes anything? Nor the price of fuel?

Quoting HermansCVR580 (Reply 28):
So no not really an attitude more of an observation and a bit of frustration with the way that Frontier is handling this. They really are not getting any brownie points in the MKE market with the way they have gone about this whole thing.

I don't believe Frontier has ever had any brownie points in MKE. I've seldom seen such irrationality directed at an airline. "The Midwest Killer"? That wasn't Frontier.

A long time ago, long before this began, I posted that I wanted to see MKE sorted out, I believed that it could be a jewel in the Frontier network.

Now - I don't care.

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mke717spotter
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RE: Latest F9 Cut: BOS

Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:19 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 25):
But Frontier's contract with Apple is for seven years and the Frontier CEO expects the Apple flying to "nearly double" next winter.

It varies throughout the week, but usually FL has up to 4 Apple flights a day from MKE. How does this frequency compare to the stations that F9 is operating from? I'd hate to have F9 take over these routes next winter only to have them reduce the frequency.
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mariner
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RE: Latest F9 Cut: BOS

Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:28 am

Quoting mke717spotter (Reply 30):
It varies throughout the week, but usually FL has up to 4 Apple flights a day from MKE. How does this frequency compare to the stations that F9 is operating from? I'd hate to have F9 take over these routes next winter only to have them reduce the frequency.

Hmmm?

Frontier doesn't direct the Apple scheduling - Apple does. Frontier - and Airtran - just fly where Apple tells 'em to go.

As in any charter - which is what they all are - Apple pays for the flights.

mariner

[Edited 2012-02-12 20:34:27]
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HermansCVR580
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RE: Latest F9 Cut: BOS

Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:34 am

Southwest has not made any major moves in MKE as of recently???? Unless you know something we don't mariner??? Yeah they are picking up some of the AirTran flights this summer but we all knew that, along with Delta adding LGA and JFK. I have not heard of any new routes. If you know of something brewing in MKE do tell inquiring minds want to know. Get it brewing in Milwaukee 

Fuel cost every airline better be getting ready for that, this is an issue that will effect every airline not just Frontier. Its only going in one direction and that is up.

I never once ever posted Frontier killed Midwest nor do I think that. Midwest died long before Frontier.
The right decision at the wrong time, is still a wrong decision. "Hal Carr"
 
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mke717spotter
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RE: Latest F9 Cut: BOS

Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:37 am

I guess what I meant to ask was whether or not F9 has enough equipment laying around to do all this extra flying, or if they're going to have to make some more cuts to free things up.
Will you watch the Cleveland Browns and the Detroit Lions on Sunday? Only if coach Eric Mangini resigned after a loss.
 
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mariner
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RE: Latest F9 Cut: BOS

Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:41 am

Quoting HermansCVR580 (Reply 32):
Southwest has not made any major moves in MKE as of recently????

As one example, a year ago - six months ago - it was widely believed, and not just on a.net, that Southwest would quickly transfer the MKE DCA/LGA slots (or most of them) to "other places."

Didn't happen, and if Frontier had hung around waiting for it to happen, it'd be up the creek without a paddle.

Quoting HermansCVR580 (Reply 32):
Fuel cost every airline better be getting ready for that, this is an issue that will effect every airline not just Frontier. Its only going in one direction and that is up.

Which - as I said on the other thread - is one reason Frontier is making these moves. And if fuel had stayed when it was when Republic bought Midwest, even the ERJ routes might have worked.

Quoting HermansCVR580 (Reply 32):
I never once ever posted Frontier killed Midwest nor do I think that. Midwest died long before Frontier.

You'd be one of the few who didn't.

mariner
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mariner
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RE: Latest F9 Cut: BOS

Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:47 am

Quoting mke717spotter (Reply 33):
I guess what I meant to ask was whether or not F9 has enough equipment laying around to do all this extra flying, or if they're going to have to make some more cuts to free things up.

I've no idea. I know there's slack in the fleet at the moment - that the summer schedule is not yet final - and that at least a couple more A320 are coming in. It's said they're considering two more on top of that.

Will there be more cuts at MKE? I guess that depends, to a large extent, on MKE. And the price of fuel.

mariner
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mikefrommke
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RE: Latest F9 Cut: BOS

Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:13 am

Quoting gustywinds (Reply 22):
However, you cannot buy tickets on the ORD - STL leg but you can buy a ticket ORD - LIR with the STL stop.

I was wondering about that. I was kind of hoping they'd let the ORD-STL be bookable and have some fun. Now that it looks like their won't be any true secondary hub, I hope they try some more P2P markets similar to NK, and not be afraid to jump into markets with competition. If they get the costs where they want them, and get some funding soon, they could jump into some competitive markets and be willing to actually compete instead of being beaten up by the incumbent carriers.
 
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RE: Latest F9 Cut: BOS

Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:50 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 35):
Will there be more cuts at MKE? I guess that depends, to a large extent, on MKE.

Well, at the moment I think all that remains of the Airbus service is MKE-DEN, so if they decide to pick up FL's chartered flying next winter then I think they're going to have to reposition some extra equipment. I doubt they'd ferry them around empty or simply base 3-4 Airbus at MKE for the sole purpose of operating charters.
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mariner
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RE: Latest F9 Cut: BOS

Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:59 am

Quoting mke717spotter (Reply 37):
Well, at the moment I think all that remains of the Airbus service is MKE-DEN, so if they decide to pick up FL's chartered flying next winter then I think they're going to have to reposition some extra equipment. I doubt they'd ferry them around empty or simply base 3-4 Airbus at MKE for the sole purpose of operating charters.

Yeh, maybe. I just don't know.

I don't know what sort of contract Airtran has for it - single year? multi year? - and I don't know what Southwest's attitude to it would be. In principle, it should be attractive to them, but their costs are higher than Airtran, so maybe not.

Or maybe Southwest would try and keep it just to kick Frontier in the nuts? I dunno.

Is the violence in Mexico affecting Apple as it is the cruise lines, who are dropping some Pacific Mexico ports? Will Apple want the 737 (or A319) for MKE-ZIH or move to the Frontier E190 as with DEN-ZIH? It's the first year the smaller aircraft has been available to Apple. Apple wants to expand in Central America - will that affect MKE? Apple also wants to expand in the west - will that affect MKE?

It isn't something I'm paying much attention to at the moment - there are too many unknowns and it is the future, it hasn't happened yet.

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ScottB
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RE: Latest F9 Cut: BOS

Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:45 am

Quoting JoePatroniYX (Thread starter):
Although Frontier had originally planned to add one BOS-MKE frequency starting April 16th, this is no longer the case.

This is a bit sad when you consider that MKE-BOS, along with the soon-to-be-axed MKE-DFW, was one of the original Midwest Express routes back in 1985. ATL, ATW, & MSN had already been cut over the past couple of years. The only remaining original YX route now is MKE-DCA. Less than five years ago, BOS-MKE saw five daily YX round-trips.

But it was strange that late last week, it was impossible to book MKE-BOS from the frontierairlines.com home page -- a portent of what was to come, I suppose.

Quoting mke717spotter (Reply 37):
Well, at the moment I think all that remains of the Airbus service is MKE-DEN, so if they decide to pick up FL's chartered flying next winter then I think they're going to have to reposition some extra equipment.

It really depends on how they'll be scheduling the charters. Some of it could be multi-day "W" flying through the vacation destinations. For daily charter destinations, the trips could easily be built as DEN-MKE-PUJ-MKE-DEN, for example.

Quoting mariner (Reply 27):
If Frontier can make money flying ten or six, or three or four routes from MKE, or two or three - or even just one

If we assume the ERJ routes are going by year's end as per the company's fleet plan, MKE looks to be down to four domestic routes -- DEN, LGA, DCA, & MCO.

Quoting mariner (Reply 29):
I don't believe Frontier has ever had any brownie points in MKE. I've seldom seen such irrationality directed at an airline. "The Midwest Killer"? That wasn't Frontier.

Then the interesting questions are: Why are Frontier & Republic viewed by many in Milwaukee as the Midwest killer? Is there anything which could have been done to avoid or change that perception? What is the root cause of the irrationality you perceive?

Quoting mikefrommke (Reply 36):
I was kind of hoping they'd let the ORD-STL be bookable and have some fun.

I suspect they'd be hard-pressed to sell much more than some deeply-discounted seats with sub-daily service. The schedules also might not allow for connections to other flights (to CUN/PVR?) in both directions.

Quoting JoePatroniYX (Thread starter):
it only leaves BOS connected to the network with one thru flight: BOS-MCI-DEN.

Unfortunately, I think the connections to the F9 network only work in one direction; the 0705 departure from DEN is too early to accept any inbound connections.

Quoting Kcrwflyer (Reply 6):
Do you think F9's intent is to actually carry pax DEN-MCI-BOS? It may be a thru-flight but I'd think the MCI-BOS segment relies on o&d between the two cities.

It does, but the A319 on the route is larger than the E190's and E170's which have served it in the past.
 
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mariner
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RE: Latest F9 Cut: BOS

Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:34 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 39):
If we assume the ERJ routes are going by year's end as per the company's fleet plan, MKE looks to be down to four domestic routes -- DEN, LGA, DCA, & MCO.

If that makes money, I'm all for it.

The sooner the ghost of Midwest is finally put to rest, the happier I shall be.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 39):
Then the interesting questions are: Why are Frontier & Republic viewed by many in Milwaukee as the Midwest killer? Is there anything which could have been done to avoid or change that perception? What is the root cause of the irrationality you perceive?

That probably requires an essay and a lot of generalizations. I've said it all before and it gets really tedious to be shouted down all the time about this. But:

(i) Someone had to be blamed for the failure of Midwest and BB was the easy target, the man who bit the bullet. Does anyone in Milwaukee actually know what David Bonderman even looks like? Or the CEO of Northwest? Or he CEO of Airtran?

(ii) I don't believe so.

(iii) A unique combination of circumstances and personalties at a certain point in time in a provincial situation. Anything else I say would probably inflame some here (maybe I already have) and it's all water under the bridge now - or should be.

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mke717spotter
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RE: Latest F9 Cut: BOS

Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:50 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 40):
Or he CEO of Airtran?

He's not over there anymore, but during FL's take-over attempt Joe Leonard actually got quite a bit of media attention throughout Milwaukee.
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Cubsrule
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RE: Latest F9 Cut: BOS

Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:54 pm

Quoting mke717spotter (Reply 41):
He's not over there anymore, but during FL's take-over attempt Joe Leonard actually got quite a bit of media attention throughout Milwaukee.

Yeah, I think Timmy and company did a pretty good job of making Joe Leonard look like the bad guy. I don't live in the upper midwest anymore, but I'm surprised there was unhappiness with F9 (or RAH), and I've never detected any unhappiness with NW or DL. Most Milwaukeeans (is that the right word?) are and were loyal to multiple carriers because YX never flew to places like Portland or Jacksonville (let alone London or Tokyo), and many of them used NW for their "non-YX" needs.
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mariner
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RE: Latest F9 Cut: BOS

Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:02 pm

Quoting mke717spotter (Reply 41):
He's not over there anymore, but during FL's take-over attempt Joe Leonard actually got quite a bit of media attention throughout Milwaukee.

At the time Midwest was collapsing (as opposed to the Airtran bid), Mr. Leonard wasn't the CEO of Airtran.

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rampart
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RE: Latest F9 Cut: BOS

Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:37 pm

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 5):
For the sake of curiosity I priced F9 DEN-MCI-BOS flight outbound on May 8 returning the following Monday At a whopping round-trip price of $842.00 I suspect this won't last to long either. Who can afford it.

Doesn't this mean that the more discounted fares were available previously and are now gone? I've seen that enough on Frontier. Good (leader) air fares are there, but one has to act fast, probably more pronounced since F9 has less capacity on a route (or systemwide for connections).

Quoting gustywinds (Reply 15):
F9 cannot be all things to all people. Not every airline needs to serve every destination.

I agree entirely. For this reason, however, I think some strategic code-sharing would be welcome. The Airtran thing was worthless, wasn't it just FF miles? Maybe B6 makes sense in some markets. Not all. (E.g. AA and AS code share on some, but compete on others. Same with US and UA.)

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