Indy
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DL Resuming IND-MCO?

Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:33 pm

I was checking Wikipedia for changes and someone has added IND-MCO as seasonal with Shuttle America. I hadn't been able to find anything until I checked Delta's interactive route map and it shows the route flown by Shuttle America. Is this information correct? If so when would the route start/end? Delta really needs to bring this route back. With the merger of FL and WN there will be only one carrier on what was one of IND's biggest routes.
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FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: DL Resuming IND-MCO?

Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:44 pm

1x E70 March 3rd - April 7th.

DL 6017 IND-MCO 0930 - 1150
DL 6017 MCO-IND 1230 - 1459

Seems to be through vacation packages as it's Saturday only service and for a relatively short duration at only one month.

[Edited 2012-02-14 09:51:17]
What gets measured gets done.
 
Indy
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RE: DL Resuming IND-MCO?

Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:59 pm

Thanks for the info. It is nice they are running it at least briefly. That route should be all year long and twice a day on nothing less than an MD80. But I guess you have to start somewhere.
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PGNCS
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RE: DL Resuming IND-MCO?

Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:05 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 2):
Thanks for the info. It is nice they are running it at least briefly. That route should be all year long and twice a day on nothing less than an MD80. But I guess you have to start somewhere.

You base this on what? That you live in Indy and want to go on a nonstop mainline aircraft at your choice of times? Is there financial data of some sort driving your claim?
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: DL Resuming IND-MCO?

Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:06 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 2):
Thanks for the info. It is nice they are running it at least briefly. That route should be all year long and twice a day on nothing less than an MD80. But I guess you have to start somewhere.

I'm almost certain there are quite a few markets that could support DL mainline service to MCO. The issue is are people willing to pay a premium for the non-stop over a connection on DL metal or another carrier for that matter. That is essentially what killed the many, many P2P routes DL once operated. Not only out of MCO.
What gets measured gets done.
 
Indy
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RE: DL Resuming IND-MCO?

Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:18 pm

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 3):

You base this on what? That you live in Indy and want to go on a nonstop mainline aircraft at your choice of times? Is there financial data of some sort driving your claim?

How about historic demand for starters. Florida and especially MCO has been a top destination from IND for many years. The fact that the route had as many as 3 carriers (WN, FL and NW) on it and due to mergers will be down to a single carrier and maybe 4 flights a day with less than 600 seats. The route historically carried over 1,000 passengers a day. Even with the slow economy and higher ticket prices than what we experienced when 3 carriers were around the route still reports 961 passengers a day.
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FlyPNS1
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RE: DL Resuming IND-MCO?

Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:52 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 5):
Even with the slow economy and higher ticket prices than what we experienced when 3 carriers were around the route still reports 961 passengers a day.

The problem is that this route is just a bunch of low-yield tourists, not something DL is particularly interested in. The reason they are running this is they have spare capacity on Saturdays when they pull down capacity from business heavy routes.

You also ignore how high fuel prices tend to change the economics of many routes.
 
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STT757
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RE: DL Resuming IND-MCO?

Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:12 pm

In the early '90s DL was flying twice daily IND-MCO, both with MD-88s.
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Indy
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RE: DL Resuming IND-MCO?

Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:14 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 6):
The problem is that this route is just a bunch of low-yield tourists, not something DL is particularly interested in.

Isn't pretty much everything to MCO low yield tourist stuff? That doesn't stop DL from running quite a few flights out of there to non hub destinations. I checked one way prices to MCO for a number of destinations on February 27th.

LGA-MCO $104.80 - 6 nonstops
BOS-MCO $139.80 - 2 nonstops
RDU-MCO $112.80 - 2 nonstops

They are supposedly adding seasonal service to CMH. That route on the 27th prices as low as $111.10. According to Wikipedia DL also serves GRR. No idea when that route runs. Low fare on the 27th is $119.10. Low fare for IND on that day is $116.10. The average fare for all these routes according to faremeasure.com is less than $300. The yields on none of these routes are good but that doesn't stop DL from flying them.
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FWAERJ
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RE: DL Resuming IND-MCO?

Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:21 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 5):
Florida and especially MCO has been a top destination from IND for many years. The fact that the route had as many as 3 carriers (WN, FL and NW) on it and due to mergers will be down to a single carrier and maybe 4 flights a day with less than 600 seats. The route historically carried over 1,000 passengers a day.

Also keep in mind that IND-MCO got hammered when G4 launched FWA-SFB and (to a lesser extent) SBN-SFB. Prior to G4 at FWA and SBN, many from those two catchment areas (FWA in particular) drove to IND for their Orlando vacation instead of using their local airport.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 7):

In the early '90s DL was flying twice daily IND-MCO, both with MD-88s.

DL transfered IND-MCO to Delta Express around 1997 or so, but the route was downgraded to DL Connection/RP ER4s when Delta Express was replaced with Song. After NW launched their IND focus city, DL (Connection) dropped IND-MCO.

Prior to DL's Chapter 11 bankruptcy, DL Connection (Freedom/Mesa) was planning on launching FWA-MCO as well, and tickets were even sold for the route. FWA-MCO was canceled by DL along with other planned MCO ER4 routes before the first flight, but G4 announced and launched FWA-SFB about a year later.
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Indy
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RE: DL Resuming IND-MCO?

Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:26 pm

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 9):

Also keep in mind that IND-MCO got hammered when G4 launched FWA-SFB and (to a lesser extent) SBN-SFB. Prior to G4 at FWA and SBN, many from those two catchment areas (FWA in particular) drove to IND for their Orlando vacation instead of using their local airport.

I think the impact has been minimal at best. Even with these tough economic times the daily numbers to MCO are still 961 a day.
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FlyPNS1
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RE: DL Resuming IND-MCO?

Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:24 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 8):
That doesn't stop DL from running quite a few flights out of there to non hub destinations.

But look at all the places DL/NW have cut over the years to MCO. Places like BOS/LGA/RDU are kept mainly to placate a large FF base that DL wants to keep happy even though the routes are losers. With IND, I don't think DL sees a large enough FF base to placate...hence why you (and CMH) get seasonal Saturday only service. And to be honest, long-term I see DL eventually abandoning BOS-MCO and RDU-MCO.
 
Indy
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RE: DL Resuming IND-MCO?

Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:47 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 11):
With IND, I don't think DL sees a large enough FF base to placate...hence why you (and CMH) get seasonal Saturday only service.

I don't know how it is with DL but with NW IND was one of its biggest FF bases. It may have been tops outside of the hubs. Big enough to justify a Sky Club. But it wouldn't surprise me to see more and more MCO routes go. I remember how MCO used to be for DL. It was huge. Now you go look at the service there and its a shell of its former self.
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FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: DL Resuming IND-MCO?

Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:17 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 12):

Goes back to what I originally said. Most are not willing to pay the premium that would be required to make such a leisure driven and price sensitive market work non-stop from a non hub. Like I said, I'm sure they can fill an 88 all day but not profitably. Those days are long gone when the price of a barrel of oil more more than half of what it is today. There's a reason why ATL see near hourly service to MCO. You can connect from almost any corner of the country through ATL with ground time of an hr or less.
What gets measured gets done.
 
Indy
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RE: DL Resuming IND-MCO?

Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:36 am

If you can't make money on a full plane selling seats at $225 a ticket r/t then you certainly aren't going to make money selling r/t tickets at $225 to the same destinations but with a connection. Trips with connections come at an even greater cost for the airlines. Some will claim it isn't the same but in reality it is and I think also a big part of the reason so many airlines don't make money. But thats a debate I guess for a completely different thread.
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Dash8Driver16
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RE: DL Resuming IND-MCO?

Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:43 am

That is also the time period of Spring break and with Purdue only an Hour north and IU an hour south as well as ISU thats three big schools pretty close and Florida does seem to draw a lot of students for spring break.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: DL Resuming IND-MCO?

Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:05 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 14):
If you can't make money on a full plane selling seats at $225 a ticket r/t then you certainly aren't going to make money selling r/t tickets at $225 to the same destinations but with a connection. Trips with connections come at an even greater cost for the airlines. Some will claim it isn't the same but in reality it is and I think also a big part of the reason so many airlines don't make money. But thats a debate I guess for a completely different thread.

I got a lot of respect for you friend but i'm telling you now that by this comment you don't know how revenue management works  
What gets measured gets done.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: DL Resuming IND-MCO?

Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:10 am

Quoting Dash8Driver16 (Reply 15):
That is also the time period of Spring break and with Purdue only an Hour north and IU an hour south as well as ISU thats three big schools pretty close and Florida does seem to draw a lot of students for spring break.

Historically, Orlando is not a big spring break destination for that crowd. The uptick in travel during the months of March and April will be by and large, families with under 18 kids on vacation taking advantage of the school break. Cruises also do very well during this time period as it's pretty much the only time except for the summer where the entire family can get away for a week. Now, expect the likes of DAB, PNS, MYR, ORF, ECP, MOB to see the above mentioned age group.
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slcdeltarumd11
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RE: DL Resuming IND-MCO?

Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:20 am

yawn......its like 6 flights and spring breaks

They would probably just connect this many people thru ATL to MCO anyway just makes it more efficient and opens up more seats to connect in ATL to more profitable destinations hopefully in a very busy time of year
 
DeltaRules
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RE: DL Resuming IND-MCO?

Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:27 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 8):
They are supposedly adding seasonal service to CMH.

CMH's Facebook page confirmed this a couple of weeks ago. I started a thread about it after seeing the press release, but nobody replied.

It's Saturday-only CR9 service CMH-MCO.
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Indy
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RE: DL Resuming IND-MCO?

Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:58 pm

Quoting FlyASAguy2005 (Reply 16):
I got a lot of respect for you friend but i'm telling you now that by this comment you don't know how revenue management works

Granted I don't know how airline revenue management works. But honestly do the airlines really know when you look at their profits and losses over the years? I look at it strictly from the point of view that you collect x dollars from a customer and you fly them y miles. Maybe that way of thinking doesn't work in the airline industry but does the airline method of revenue management really have years of profits to back it up? Why are the airlines that tend to have the most feed the ones that tend to perform the worst historically? I've seen it written (by Boyd maybe?) that there is no money in connecting passengers. That the real money is in your origination and destination traffic. I ask this stuff because I am curious.
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jfklganyc
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RE: DL Resuming IND-MCO?

Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:03 pm

Delta used to have a "hub" or focus city in MCO in which they served a lot of domestic and even intl destinations non stop.
Hence the 2 daily MD 88 service in the 90s.

They no longer have this presence in MCO.

What they do have is high frequency service from MCO to their current hubs and focus cities.

Indy really isn't a focus city for DL.
 
Indy
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RE: DL Resuming IND-MCO?

Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:11 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 21):

Indy really isn't a focus city for DL.

It isn't? There is service to ATL, DTW, MSP, SLC, MEM, LAX, CUN, BOS, JFK, LGA, RDU, DCA now add the new seasonal MCO service.
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FlyPNS1
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RE: DL Resuming IND-MCO?

Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:15 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 22):
There is service to ATL, DTW, MSP, SLC, MEM, LAX, CUN, BOS, JFK, LGA, RDU, DCA now add the new seasonal MCO service.

Almost all those markets are hubs, so it's natural for IND to be connected, but doesn't mean it's a focus city. I'll also note that DCA-IND is being eliminated.
 
lucky777
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RE: DL Resuming IND-MCO?

Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:24 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 23):
Almost all those markets are hubs, so it's natural for IND to be connected, but doesn't mean it's a focus city. I'll also note that DCA-IND is being eliminated.

Call it whatever floats your boat....but MCO is one of DAL's top 10 domestic daily operations as far as sheer number of passengers is concerned.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: DL Resuming IND-MCO?

Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:28 pm

Quoting lucky777 (Reply 24):
Call it whatever floats your boat....but MCO is one of DAL's top 10 domestic daily operations as far as sheer number of passengers is concerned.


We were talking about IND, not MCO.
 
mcogator
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RE: DL Resuming IND-MCO?

Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:20 pm

Orlando is the number one destination from Atlanta based on passenger numbers, so I'm sure there are quite a few routes that Delta can fill narrowbodies on. The question is if they would be profitable, and most likely it won't or Delta would already be flying them.
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PI767
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RE: DL Resuming IND-MCO?

Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:07 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 21):
Delta used to have a "hub" or focus city in MCO in which they served a lot of domestic and even intl destinations non stop.

Actually, here is a break-down of operations from the Delta MCO hub:

http://www.departedflights.com/DLMCOhub.html
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Indy
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RE: DL Resuming IND-MCO?

Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:14 pm

Quoting PI767 (Reply 27):
Actually, here is a break-down of operations from the Delta MCO hub:

Thanks for posting that. I remember the MCO-FRA flight. I think that was an L1011 right?

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 23):
Almost all those markets are hubs

Actually only 7 of the 13 are hubs.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air

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