speedbird217
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Strike In FRA Tomorrow Likely To Happen

Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:10 pm

Couldn't find this posted here. The apron controllers in FRA just said they want to strike tomorrow from 3pm to 10pm.
It appears this will affect flight operations completely. Their reasoning is that their negotiations with Fraport for better payment and other improvements came to a halt.
Let's see if they can avoid this last minute, otherwise this will hit hard, especially on such short notice.

Sorry, link only in German: http://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/articl...lughafen-Frankfurt-lahm-legen.html
 
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airbuseric
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RE: Strike In FRA Tomorrow Likely To Happen

Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:27 pm

No respect!

Why on earth should innocent travellers become a victim of this local issue? This behavior of airport staff should not be tolerated. It hurts the airlines a lot as well.

 
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aloges
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RE: Strike In FRA Tomorrow Likely To Happen

Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:41 pm

Quoting airbuseric (Reply 1):
This behavior of airport staff should not be tolerated.

The right to strike is a fundamental right of employees in any democratic society...
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airbuseric
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RE: Strike In FRA Tomorrow Likely To Happen

Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:53 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 2):
The right to strike is a fundamental right of employees in any democratic society...

True. But when you have a job in a service related environment, especially those serving worldwide/international markets, you should consider to give up this particular right.

People are just a victim. Hard working people of the world spending their money on airline and travelling to make a good business, or on a well deserved holiday, or important family visit etc, become victim. Their travel plans get messed up. Just because some FRA apron controllers wants salary increasement. It's a difficult time, for everybody these days, don't make it more difficult especially not for the innocent people flying via FRA.
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speedbird217
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RE: Strike In FRA Tomorrow Likely To Happen

Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:56 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 2):
The right to strike is a fundamental right of employees in any democratic society...

While I completely agree with you on that one, I also have to say that there are different ways of striking. Announcing today that you are going to shut down and entire huge international airport tomorrow for 7 hours (given the chaos following that strike the aftermath will be way longer than this) is in my opinion nothing else than taking passengers hostage for your cause, like airbuseric said.

If you want to apply pressure, go ahead and strike. It's your good right to do so, but do it with enough time for customers and airlines to adapt. They are not your "enemy", in that case your employer is. And he will get the message, even without you ruining the travel plans of thousands and thousands of travellers that don't have time to rearrange their itinieraries until tomorrow.
 
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RE: Strike In FRA Tomorrow Likely To Happen

Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:17 pm

Quoting airbuseric (Reply 3):
But when you have a job in a service related environment, especially those serving worldwide/international markets, you should consider to give up this particular right.

Why? What would any employee gain in return for that?

Quoting Speedbird217 (Reply 4):
Announcing today that you are going to shut down and entire huge international airport tomorrow for 7 hours (given the chaos following that strike the aftermath will be way longer than this) is in my opinion nothing else than taking passengers hostage for your cause, like airbuseric said.

They've been through negotiations, where no compromise was reached. They've been through arbitration, the result of which Fraport also didn't accept, so Fraport had lots of warning and they say that they have prepared for this. What they are going to do is a Warnstreik, a flash strike to show their employer what will happen if (or when) they go on strike for real.

If you want workers who are not allowed to strike, make them government officials - teachers, the police and many more are just such Beamte who lack the right to strike, but also face no risk of being fired. It is of course more costly, but the option exists and has existed for ages.

source: http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/service/0,1518,815448,00.html
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airbuseric
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RE: Strike In FRA Tomorrow Likely To Happen

Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:25 pm

Well, if you're not happy with your salary... You have one other right which is the right to work. If you're not happy, people can quit their job and find a better one. I'm sure in the current time enought other people would be happy to take it!
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aloges
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RE: Strike In FRA Tomorrow Likely To Happen

Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:35 pm

Quoting airbuseric (Reply 6):
You have one other right which is the right to work.

Uhm... the people who are going on strike after their employer refused to accept the arbitration result do already work.

Quoting airbuseric (Reply 6):
If you're not happy, people can quit their job and find a better one. I'm sure in the current time enought other people would be happy to take it!

Riiight...    As I was saying, if you want workers who don't have the right to strike, make them government officials. The option is right there, it's just a matter of paying for it. You can't have your cake (cheaper labour) and eat it (no strikes), too.
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PanHAM
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RE: Strike In FRA Tomorrow Likely To Happen

Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:51 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 2):
The right to strike is a fundamental right of employees in any democratic society...

that strike is unreasonable in many ways,

it hits people who ar absolutely not involved, i.e. passengers and shippers of frreight

it hits companies (airlines) who are paying fees for that service and have no way to avoid losses.

they demanded a double digit increase and the arbitration was inches away. Yet, they have a key position, 200 people can eventually shut down an airport that serves 160000 passengers a day. This is abuse of power.

least, Fraport may not lose too much as they will have a house full of stranded passengers buying goods for which Fraport gets concession fees.

Wonder what Lufthansa will do, sue Fraport, the union, both, or get a court injunction.,
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RE: Strike In FRA Tomorrow Likely To Happen

Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:00 pm

Good for these guys...I support them!

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 8):
they demanded a double digit increase and the arbitration was inches away. Yet, they have a key position, 200 people can eventually shut down an airport that serves 160000 passengers a day. This is abuse of power.

Why should they devalue themselves? If the service that they provide is that well needed then the increases they are asking for should be granted.
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PanHAM
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RE: Strike In FRA Tomorrow Likely To Happen

Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:11 pm

This may be rough figures, but I just heard that drivers of the "follow me" vans demanded pay rises of up to 50%. This cannot work in a company that employs 17000 people in various departments,

Of course, a follow me driver has to have special skills, but what do you tell the driver of a cart towing freight dollies? At he has a special driving license for the apron. So who's next, drivers of de-icing trucks forming their own union with 50 or so, holding the rest at ransom?

Pay rises must be reasonable and Fraport has made a reasonable offer in the abrbritration.
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aloges
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RE: Strike In FRA Tomorrow Likely To Happen

Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:15 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 14):
This may be rough figures, but I just heard that drivers of the "follow me" vans demanded pay rises of up to 50%.

A, I would appreicate if you could provide a link to a credible source.
B, was that kind of raise part of the arbitration result which Fraport didn't accept?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 14):
Pay rises must be reasonable and Fraport has made a reasonable offer in the abrbritration.

I've looked for the result, but couldn't find it. Do you have a source?

[Edited 2012-02-15 09:16:25]
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speedbird217
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RE: Strike In FRA Tomorrow Likely To Happen

Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:25 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 14):
I just heard that drivers of the "follow me" vans demanded pay rises of up to 50%

Wow, this is ridiculous!!

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 14):
but what do you tell the driver of a cart towing freight dollies?

Actually there is a lot of room for improvements there. I used to work on the ramp in DUS, actually with a special driver's license towing baggage carts 
Luckily I only worked there to finance my studies. It was scandalous, some ramp workers worked well over 200 hours a month and went home with less than 1,000 Euros in their pocket at the end of the month. And the employer making a huge profit, since their margin from the money they got from the airport was so huge.That's the price you pay for having a low unemployment rate due to temporary employment companies...
 
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RE: Strike In FRA Tomorrow Likely To Happen

Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:33 pm

Quoting Speedbird217 (Reply 16):
That's the price you pay for having a low unemployment rate due to temporary employment companies...

Hey, if they are

Quoting airbuseric (Reply 6):
not happy, people can quit their job and find a better one.

  
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airbuseric
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RE: Strike In FRA Tomorrow Likely To Happen

Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:49 pm

Quoting Speedbird217 (Reply 16):
It was scandalous, some ramp workers worked well over 200 hours a month and went home with less than 1,000 Euros in their pocket at the end of the month.

It's mostly 'un-educated' work. A special driving permit is not special. Just learn a few regulations. Driving can be teached and you'll earn that possession quick enough. It's like driving a car .

in AMS, those apron jobs are done by students or low/non educated people. (not supervisors etc,) If they can have a nett salary of 1000 Euro's a month, it's not bad isn't it? Since enough educated people bring home 1500-2000 Euro's for much more responsible jobs.
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PanHAM
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RE: Strike In FRA Tomorrow Likely To Happen

Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:05 pm

Check airliners.de today's newsletter, they even mention hikes over 70%, you may have subscribed it, if not go via thze airliners.de portal.

Quoting Speedbird217 (Reply 16):
Luckily I only worked there to finance my studies. It was scandalous, some ramp workers worked well over 200 hours a month and went home with less than 1,000 Euros i

so how do you knpow that theoir employer made a "huge" profit? This sounds like € 7,50 per hour roughly, once all the employers shares oto the mandatory health insurance, pension, unemployed, the average holidays and sick days, which have to b calculated with at least 40 day p.a.or almost 2 month out of 12, the overhead et al and the employers risk, because he still has to pay you even if there ois no work, that 7,50 double at öleast, if not going close to 20€ per hour.

There goes your "huge profit".
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readytotaxi
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RE: Strike In FRA Tomorrow Likely To Happen

Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:12 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 2):
The right to strike is a fundamental right of employees in any democratic society...

If you continue to live within a democratic society, you accept the pros and cons that brings.
You also have the choice to remove yourself from that society,if you wish,and find another country of choice that will have you.
I suspect quiet a few "other countries" do not offer that choice.
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speedbird217
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RE: Strike In FRA Tomorrow Likely To Happen

Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:15 pm

Quoting airbuseric (Reply 18):
It's mostly 'un-educated' work

Sure it is, I don't deny that. But it's also very physical work. Do this job for 5 years and kiss your bones and spine goodbye. Also, just because it's uneducated work doesn't mean you shouldn't get a proper wage for it.
Soccer players do an uneducated job as well, and they receive many million Euros a year  

These people have families too, and some of them were people with degrees in engineering or dentistry workers. They just couldn't find a job somewhere else after their company crashed during the Crisis because they were "too old" and had to take the job at the airport to survive.
Are you seriously telling me that working 6 days a week on 9 hour shifts, lifting luggage, doing jobs you shouldn't even be doing because the airport wants to save money and only scheduled the shifts with a fraction of the people that should be there and loosing your family in the process, because they never see you is something you would want to do? For 1,000 Euros?

These people deserve to be paid appropriately and if the company you work for receives close to 5 times the amount per worker per hour than what they actually pay them, this has nothing to do with the fact that it's uneducated work. I fully agree that they will/should never earn as much as well-trained, well-ecucated and highly-specialized people. But they are still human beings and to treat them like dirt, just because they don't have a choice is nothing but inhuman.
And btw, the DUS airport company made a profit of 57 million Euros in 2010 and some 30 million in 2011. And yet it's not unusual that you wait for your luggage for 50+ minutes, because there's just not enough people there to do all the work.

It's always easy to judge from the outside. Go work there for a month and you will see the world with different eyes. I am educated and I will get a good job once I graduate, but don't close your eyes. If people work hard they should be rewarded. If you don't work hard, then it's your fault, I agree on that...

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 19):
so how do you knpow that theoir employer made a "huge" profit?

When you get paid 7.50 Euros per hour and the company receives 35 Euros per hour for your workforce - even with insurances and benefits I would define that as a huge profit.

[Edited 2012-02-15 10:20:46]

[Edited 2012-02-15 10:30:02]
 
aloges
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RE: Strike In FRA Tomorrow Likely To Happen

Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:16 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 19):
Check airliners.de today's newsletter, they even mention hikes over 70%, you may have subscribed it, if not go via thze airliners.de portal.

I just have: http://www.airliners.de/management/p...dlotsen-legen-frankfurt-lahm/26398

They quote a Fraport manager (who is by definition not a reliable source on this matter) and they don't say if his quote refers to the union demand before the arbitration, so that information is worthless.
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EricAY05
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RE: Strike In FRA Tomorrow Likely To Happen

Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:05 pm

Does anyone have any news on the strike? How many flights will be affected? Has anyting, like exact hours, been confirmed?
 
speedbird217
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RE: Strike In FRA Tomorrow Likely To Happen

Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:10 pm

Quoting EricAY05 (Reply 23):
Does anyone have any news on the strike? How many flights will be affected? Has anyting, like exact hours, been confirmed?

Nothing new really. This is from the official FRA website:

Quote:
The German union for air traffic workers, GdF (Gewerkschaft der Flugsicherung), has announced a warning strike on Thursday, February 16, from 3 p.m. to 10 p.m.  Due to the strike flight cancellations and disruptions might occur at Frankfurt Airport.

Passengers are kindly requested to contact their airline or tour operator for the latest information before flying and to keep informed via the media.  Further information is also available from the Fraport Communication Center at 0 18 05/3 72 46 or +49 1805-372 4636*.  * (The rate charged is €0.14 per minute when calling from a German landline phone and a maximum of €0.42 per minute when calling from a mobile phone.)
http://www.frankfurt-airport.com/content/frankfurt_airport/en.html
 
PanHAM
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RE: Strike In FRA Tomorrow Likely To Happen

Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:26 pm

Quoting Speedbird217 (Reply 21):

When you get paid 7.50 Euros per hour and the company receives 35 Euros per hour for your workforce - even with insurances and benefits I would define that as a huge profit.

I did the rough calculation, if you add all the monis they have to pay or insurances, for holidays and sick days up to 6 weeks in a row, the overhead and the risk that they have no work for you but still have to pay you, the overhead, office staff and all, there is a profit, that's why companies are in business for, but not what you think. Business calculations is unfortunately not taught at school in Germany.



Quoting aloges (Reply 22):
They quote a Fraport manager (who is by definition not a reliable source on this matter) and they don't say if his quote refers to the union demand before the arbitration, so that information is worthless.

He is a board member of a publicly noted company. He could be held liable if he makes false statements., Check the Aktiengesetz. BTW, he is social democrat, maybe that improves his credibility with oyu.   He cannot disclose details on the arbitration, that would be Ole's job and the matter is pending.

Fact is, that in a company of 17000 employees you cannot single out 200 and give them 50% pay hikes without stirring an uproar.
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aloges
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RE: Strike In FRA Tomorrow Likely To Happen

Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:33 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 25):
He is a board member of a publicly noted company. He could be held liable if he makes false statements.

As I was saying: the article doesn't say whether or not the quote refers to the original demand or the arbitration result. Additionally, there are always ways to calculate individual raises in such a way that they end up much higher than the average, just to make the union look greedy. It's an ancient tactic and the union is more than likely to do the equivalent in its press releases, with the truth being somewhere in the middle.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 25):
BTW, he is social democrat, maybe that improves his credibility with oyu.

Really?    That must be why I'm harping on about the arbitration, with Ole von Beust being the arbitrator.
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dw9115
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RE: Strike In FRA Tomorrow Likely To Happen

Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:07 am

Quoting aloges (Reply 2):
The right to strike is a fundamental right of employees in any democratic society...

You understand that Germany is not a Democracy but actually a Federal Republic? Because the two are somewhat similar but for the most extremely different. A side note 99% of Americans don't even know that America isn't a Democracy either and the few that due know mostly think it is just a Republic (1/3 true) but it is actually a Constitutional Federal Republic and the founding fathers liked parts of democracy but found it to ultimately be flawed and impractical they have even written that they feared it because true complete democracy is in a sense nothing more than mob rule.
 
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RE: Strike In FRA Tomorrow Likely To Happen

Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:00 am

Quoting dw9115 (Reply 27):
Republic?

Good one. Translate Res Publica and be surprised what you get.

The Federal stands for the organisation only.

Quoting aloges (Reply 26):
As I was saying: the article doesn't say whether or not the quote refers to the original demand or the arbitration result.

That's why I said 50% and not the 73 or so mentioned in that article. Let's see what will happen today, how they will cope with management personel and how many lfights will actually be cancelled, or, they get a court order against the strike.
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aloges
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RE: Strike In FRA Tomorrow Likely To Happen

Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:37 am

Update: The strike may continue on Friday.

source: http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/service/0,1518,815589,00.html (in German)

The same article (and several others according to a quick Google news search) quotes the Fraport works council as calling the union demands "excessive".    That and a two-day "flash strike" do make me wonder...
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PanHAM
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RE: Strike In FRA Tomorrow Likely To Happen

Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:02 am

Me not. It is what i said, there is a small group of 200 people within a total work force of 17000 with an excessive deamnd, How do you explain to the rest of the unionized workers and those who are not double digit increase when the other get may be 2 or 3 percent?

The follow me drivers claim they have more work with the new runway, OK, fine.hire more people. But an 8 hour shift means you can handle so and so many aircraft in that time, never 2 at the same time. So how do they have more work? May be less time to fool around than before.

In any case, Fraport is making a bruta figura here, they selected the arbitrator, former Hamburg mayor Ole Von Beust and now they don't accept his solution. May be they did not specify their position properly. Does not make me wonder with the board member in charge of labor relations and the old CEO was better than his successor, by all means.
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airbuseric
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RE: Strike In FRA Tomorrow Likely To Happen

Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:08 am

Quoting Speedbird217 (Reply 21):
But it's also very physical work. Do this job for 5 years and kiss your bones and spine goodbye

Believe me I know, I did a lot of this work when I was a student too   And it paid very well compared to other jobs (e.g. filling the supermarket shelves). I was always happy to have these jobs.

Quoting Speedbird217 (Reply 21):
Are you seriously telling me that working 6 days a week on 9 hour shifts, lifting luggage, doing jobs you shouldn't even be doing because the airport wants to save money and only scheduled the shifts with a fraction of the people that should be there and loosing your family in the process, because they never see you is something you would want to do? For 1,000 Euros?

Well, don't get me wrong I don't mind if their salaries go up. And I've no good insight in the German situation. Apart from that I do believe that in such case the salaries can't be brought up too much since they would easily be coming at same level as 'educated' office jobs who bring home maybe 1,500 Euro's a month. That will mean that the office workers should ask for increasement soon also? Go figure, the whole system should be changed then.

I think if you get at some age and have to finance a family, it's time to look for other jobs. Since this seems more to be for parttime workers, students, instead of the family-man. Also health wise what you clearly mentioned and are right about.

It's difficult matter, but I think it's the time we live in now. Unfair? Yes I think so. A choice, maybe not really. If you don't want to do it, somebody else does.

Regarding the strike; I know it's a right to do. But I also think it's unfair to the innocent travellers passing through the airport.
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PanHAM
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RE: Strike In FRA Tomorrow Likely To Happen

Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:20 am

Just heard a figure on the radio, the total additional expense for fraport would be e 7 million p.a., that translates to € 35k per person.

Even if you take the usual German social BS off, that translates to an average payhike of roughly € 1500,00 per month, Even taking into account that these people, with shift work et al are highly paid professionals already, the additonal money is gross.

That cannot be sold to the rest of the employees.
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vv701
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RE: Strike In FRA Tomorrow Likely To Happen

Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:50 am

The right to strike is inviolate. Withdrawal of labour is a worker's ultimate sanction against the organisation he or she is in dispute with, his or her employer.

Ignoring the rights or wrongs of this dispute what is appalling is the 24 hour-notice given of this strike. This virtually makes it impossible for the general public, with whom the drivers have no argument, to make alternative arrangements. It also leaves hardly any time for the employer and the workers to resolve the dispute.

So it is clear that the strike call is vindictive and is designed to cause maximum disruption and that it is not primarily aimed at resolving the dispute. Indeed the most likely outcome is that it will harden the position of both sides and be totally counter productive in reaching any compromise that is acceptable to both sides.
 
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RE: Strike In FRA Tomorrow Likely To Happen

Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:44 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 21):
Fact is, that in a company of 17000 employees you cannot single out 200 and give them 50% pay hikes without stirring an uproar.

Very good point. It's going to cause an avalanche that Fraport wouldn't survive.

Quoting dw9115 (Reply 23):
You understand that Germany is not a Democracy but actually a Federal Republic?

What's in a name, really?
Democratic People's Republic of Korea, anybody?


I'll be having a look at the situation in FRA tomorrow, see for myself if there are people striking in the Terminal or so. First-hand information is always the most reliable information.
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speedbird217
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RE: Strike In FRA Tomorrow Likely To Happen

Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:56 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 29):
I did the rough calculation, if you add all the monis they have to pay or insurances, for holidays and sick days up to 6 weeks in a row, the overhead and the risk that they have no work for you but still have to pay you, the overhead, office staff and all, there is a profit, that's why companies are in business for, but not what you think. Business calculations is unfortunately not taught at school in Germany.

Well, I am an International Business Major, so I think I am not completely stupid when it comes to calculating those kinds of things  
When you are sick, you only get paid a fraction of your normal income. The contracts are not exactly in favor of the employees either. There is no money for not working, as you are paid by the hour. Be sick for that amount of time (6 weeks, like you said) and they kick you out immediately. Quit the job within the first year and pay your initial training out of your own pocket.
I also highly doubt you will need roughly 27 Euros per worker per hour to pay for his benefits and insurances. The overhead is there, yes. They have their offices in an old freight building and some 10 people work there. That's not exactly a big operation, given that they have a duopolic situation in the Ground Handling at DUS (to be exact, it's three companies, but since they provide 100% of their work to one of the other 2 it's really just 2). All of their equipment is provided by the company they are subcontracting to, so these costs do not apply to them.
If the employment center places unemployed people with them (like in most cases there) they get subsidies. They might also get some for offering temp work from the federal government, I don't have insight into that. During the summertime they take an amount of your working hours and put them in a "time account" for the winter time, when there isn't as much flight ops as during the summer. This gives them an interest advantage, as they can work with the money you worked for, but didn't receive at the time.

My feeling is that a lot of companies today only want profit at any price. The people I worked with were very nice guys, at least most of them. They were so frustrated about the whole working situation there. They were literally treated as s*** and nobody cared about them. I guarantee you that they would be much more productive, motivated and sick less often if they would actually be treated well. It doesn't even have to cost much. You don't have to give them a payraise of 10% a month. Just let them participate in the good result the airport has had or show them you care and be nice to them. Listen to them. It can be done with little things, some of the airport staff that has been working there for 25 years told me very interesting stories about how things changed and how nice of a place to work at it used to be a decade ago. The former CEO (prior to the airport fire) used to show up in the baggage halls, talking to people or when things got rough during the first days of summer holidays he would order pizza for everybody to motivate them.You can't run a company on fear, it's respect and a good give-and-take relationship.

You are right, they are not teaching business in schools. But what's a lot worse in my opinion is that you don't have a single class on business ethics or morale responsibility when you are actually studying business at a university in Germany! I also studied in the US and it was a completely different world. So much more with the practical things in focus and less all about the theory. And it was a lot more about humans and social interactions than only about plain numbers. Of course that's my experience, some people might feel different.
This time at the airport really opened my eyes and it showed me a lot of what's wrong today. It's not all about money, but it's also and more importantly about how you treat the people working for you.

Okay, enough about that. I don't want to paint everything black.
 
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RE: Strike In FRA Tomorrow Likely To Happen

Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:33 pm

Quoting Speedbird217 (Reply 31):
When you are sick, you only get paid a fraction of your normal income. The contracts are not exactly in favor of the employees either. There is no money for not working, as you are paid by the hour. Be sick for that amount of time (6 weeks, like you said) and they kick you out immediately. Quit the job within the first year and pay your initial training out of your own pocket.

and I have 40 years experience with budgets. Even in the eraly 80s in my aircargo export company a relatively small outfit the over the thumb calculation was DM 6000,00 to 7.000 per workplace and an export clerk could make DM 3500,00 per month, which was paid at least 13 x per annum That alone brings it up to 3792,00 per month..

The fact that you get only a fraction of your incmome does not mean that the employer has to pay the full amount of his share in the insuranmce. And for employee leasing it is so that they have to calculate your holidays and your sick days in , up to the 6 weeks. But OK, this is off-topic. One more word to ethics and morale. Your'e bit behind on that., every large company these days has a compliance officer.

Now, the strike has started, many short haul flights but not all are cancelled, let#s see how ths works out. me wonders that Fraport did not get a court order, but I guess that Mr. Mai has screwed that up.
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LOWS
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RE: Strike In FRA Tomorrow Likely To Happen

Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:59 pm

Quoting Semaex (Reply 30):

Quoting dw9115 (Reply 23):
You understand that Germany is not a Democracy but actually a Federal Republic?

What's in a name, really?
Democratic People's Republic of Korea, anybody?

I'm so sick of that misconception. Democracy is a process. Republic is a form of government. You can have both.

How many flights have been canceled so far?
 
wilco737
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RE: Strike In FRA Tomorrow Likely To Happen

Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:12 pm

Strike has been extended. 17th from 8am until 10pm...

Quoting LOWS (Reply 33):
How many flights have been canceled so far?

I would guess 50+ and for tomorrow at least 150...

wilco737
  
 
Birdwatching
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RE: Strike In FRA Tomorrow Likely To Happen

Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:40 pm

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 34):
Strike has been extended. 17th from 8am until 10pm...

And Lufthansa seems to be affected even into Saturday. I was booked to fly STR-FRA-MAD on the early flight, and the STR-FRA was one of the cancelled flights. Lufthansa offered me a voucher for the train (on that route, the train is almost as fast as the plane) but unfortunately it wouldn't get me into FRA in time for my connection to MAD, and even if it did, I'd probably run into more delays at FRA.

So I called them up and asked if they could re-book me on the MUC flight, bypassing FRA altogether. It was no problem, and this way I even get a nice Dash 8 instead of the usual 735. And I get into MAD 10 minutes earlier and have to wake up an hour later in the morning. Even though I had to spend ages in their expensive phone queue, in the end they were very friendly and efficient and I had a new eticket within minutes.

Soren   
All the things you probably hate about travelling are warm reminders that I'm home
 
wilco737
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RE: Strike In FRA Tomorrow Likely To Happen

Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:44 pm

Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 35):

Sounds good. I guess they haven't had any other option than rebooking you or better do what you want  

Happy flying.

wilco737
  
 
reifel
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RE: Strike In FRA Tomorrow Likely To Happen

Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:34 pm

Wow, while it's for sure adequate to speak about their right to strike or not I'm impressed that no one is talking about the actual facts about how many flights are cancelled etc  

Most flights for tomorrow have been cancelled aroung 4:40 pm german time. The think is, that in the GDS they still show as confirmed (HK) and not UN. You need to check the list on lufthansa.com with all cancelled flights or look in to the flight information to see if the flight takes place! Means most travel agents are not even aware. And even if they are, in germany lufthansa Service teams, which are allowed to take care of the rebookings, close at 5:30 pm. there is an out of hours service team, which is completely useless as they can't decide less than the regular LH hotline...
From an agent point of view LH needs to dramatically improve this. I do understand they're victims too, but how can you leave all people which take care of the travel agents alone without any clear instructions, not even having a supervisor here which can approves things! They were aware that as soon as they publish the list phone lines would be a mess... other airlines at least have clear instructions for travel agents what they're allowed to do themselves,i .e. AF tells "rebook to cheapest avble booking class in same cabin on AF/KL/DL/KQ, then other Skyteam member, then other alrlines and reissue ticket with Endorsement STRIKE FRA".
Lufthansa is soooo bad in these regards.

Anyway, just wanted to share this as because of this I had to stay 3 hours longer at work to get 2 passengers rebooked, which I could have rebooked in 5 minutes if I had clear instructions from the airline or would have joined someone at the agent helpdesk which is actually able to decide something. By the way, in the end this was solved by calling the US helpdesk in NYC which gave me a waiver to rebook to another flight.
 
Birdwatching
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RE: Strike In FRA Tomorrow Likely To Happen

Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:27 pm

Quoting reifel (Reply 37):
From an agent point of view LH needs to dramatically improve this. I do understand they're victims too, but how can you leave all people which take care of the travel agents alone without any clear instructions, not even having a supervisor here which can approves things!

My experience today was totally different. I called the (24 hour!) hotline and they rebooked me within minutes to an alternative flight. My flight wasn't even booked through LH directly but through a travel web site. What keeps your customer (or you) from calling that same number?

Soren   
All the things you probably hate about travelling are warm reminders that I'm home
 
reifel
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RE: Strike In FRA Tomorrow Likely To Happen

Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:17 pm

Well, the usually wont take care of your call as soon as they realize you're a travel agent, since they're not responsible for you. And you can't let the guest call, since I work with a tour operator and the flight is part of a package, so the tour operator is responsible and not the guest to call the airline... It's not a published fare which was booked. The tour operator needs to take care of that, since there are quite a few other things that need to be adjusted, i.e. transfer bookings changed etc...

And that's not really the point, because it's just incredible how LH handled from an agent point of view. Again, I do realize they are victim too, we all are, but how can it be that as a business partner I would expect them to be better organized.

It was not easy to reach the number of LH by the way, so people would also like to try their new online rebooking options, well it usually don't works. The only option that works is to change your flight to a train ticket, but I never had any joy trying to rebook to another flight...
 
ocracoke
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RE: Strike In FRA Tomorrow Likely To Happen

Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:18 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):

This may be rough figures, but I just heard that drivers of the "follow me" vans demanded pay rises of up to 50%. This cannot work in a company that employs 17000 people in various departments,

Of course, a follow me driver has to have special skills

Someone please educate me as to what these "follow me" vans are used for? What exactly is their real job? Just to park planes? What special skills did they have to learn that no other person on the ramp cannot learn? I've flown through FRA many a time, and I see them hop out of their vans, marshall the plane to the parking spot, hop back into the van, and drive off. Is that all? Why the special workforce just for that?

I compare that to airports here in the US (ie. ATL) that are busier than FRA, where there are no "follow me" vans anywhere. Pilots get guided to their parking spot by the control tower radio, and the individual ramp crews actually marshall the plane to the correct stop line. I compare that to airports more congested than FRA (LGA, LAX, ORD), and the same thing. No follow me drivers. I look at airports that have some terminals under the common use gate system, where gate assignments may change on a daily basis (ATL, LAS, ORD), and no "follow me" drivers there. I look at airports that use an almost totally automated parking system, so no ramp crews are needed to park the plane (SEA), and still no "follow me" drivers anywhere. I even look at airports that either currently have or have used in the past a ramp parking/bus system like FRA uses (JFK, CVG), and no follow me drivers there either.

If airports that are busier, or more congested, or working with the same common use gate scheme system, don't use "follow me" employees, why exactly are they needed in FRA? Is it a cultural thing? A job protection thing? An ego thing? Or is it a...'this is how we've always done it, so why change now' kind of thing? From the outside looking in, it seems like a job that is easily replaceable.

Thanks for filling me in.
 
dw9115
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RE: Strike In FRA Tomorrow Likely To Happen

Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:20 am

Quoting LOWS (Reply 33):
I'm so sick of that misconception. Democracy is a process. Republic is a form of government. You can have both.

Democracy is a form of government and actually not a very good one thats why there are hybrid forms like a Republic of Federalist system etc. that work better and try and take what works best.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Strike In FRA Tomorrow Likely To Happen

Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:57 am

Quoting dw9115 (Reply 41):
Democracy is a form of government and actually not a very good one thats why there are hybrid forms like a Republic of Federalist system etc. that work better and try and take what works best.

Bit off topic, but Germany is a full democracy. The government is put in place by open and free elections and is organised as a Federal Republic, according to the constitution. All basic principles of a democracy are n place, legislative executive and judiciars. It is a state ruled by the law.

Back toi the topic - this gives workers the right to strike and getting a court injunction against a strike, even when 200 workers are holding ten thousands ransom, is difficult to obtain.

Difficult situation, the € 7 million € (10 million US$) it would cost Fraport to meet the demands are by far exceeded by the costs of the strike, one can say that the damage goes into the 10 millions already.

But, as mentioned before, try to give unprecedented pay hikes to a minority group within a workforce of 17000 and you stirr an uproar.



Quoting ocracoke (Reply 40):
Someone please educate me as to what these "follow me" v

Good question, I remember arrriving late evening form BHX and a BA ERJet and the pilots were the first time here, driving in circlesand we passengers with local insider knowledge already started laughing. Finally they requested a follow me van to get them to their stand. I am a bit surprised that follow me vans are mandatory here. A realy joke is the follow me van at airports like bremen.

But it is not only them, apron control which allocates the gate positions is included in the strike as wlel.

But - good questions to those who have more knowledge about this topic
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babybus
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RE: Strike In FRA Tomorrow Likely To Happen

Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:11 am

Quoting airbuseric (Reply 3):
True. But when you have a job in a service related environment

By that thoery the workers are held hostage. You have to protest sometimes. It's Fraports failure to reach a suitable compromise that has led to this.

As work becomes more difficult and the value of a salary decreases companies will have to find methods of making work more attractive.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Strike In FRA Tomorrow Likely To Happen

Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:53 am

Some more details.

the lowest category, the follow me drivers make between € 30 and 45K p.a., that should rise up to € 55K p.a.

A higher category, those who allocate the slots and supervise apron acitivities presently earnm between e 40 and 60 K and that should rise up to € 80K.

I think there#s a third category but I haven't got info on that one.
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captaincrackers
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RE: Strike In FRA Tomorrow Likely To Happen

Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:28 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 44):
lowest category, the follow me drivers make between € 30 and 45K p.a., that should rise up to € 55K p.a.

To add some transparency to these figures, €30k/year (or €2500/month) gross currently translates to around €18k/year (or €1500/month) net.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Strike In FRA Tomorrow Likely To Happen

Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:58 am

Quoting CaptainCrackers (Reply 45):
To add some transparency to these figures, €30k/year (or €2500/month) gross currently translates to around €18k/year (or €1500/month) net.

Not really, that depends on your marital staus, how many kids etc. also, they usually pay 13 salaries, so the monthly figure is less, a single would pay taxes, someone married with 2 kids wife working part-time on a 400e take home job wpould not pay anby taxes, just his share of the pension/health/unemployed insurance which adds to around 20% but would also get child support paid.

That family would have more than the 2500/month take home pay.
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Semaex
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RE: Strike In FRA Tomorrow Likely To Happen

Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:09 am

Quoting CaptainCrackers (Reply 45):
To add some transparency to these figures, €30k/year (or €2500/month) gross currently translates to around €18k/year (or €1500/month) net.

Like mentioned in the previous post, it's a little more complex than that, but still it's a good figure to hold on to considering the kind of job that these people are performing - Driving a car and while doing so turning onto the correct taxiway. Hardly a job that needs a lot of education.

Someone posted before that on their home airport it's usually a job students do, which kind of gives you an impression of how little preperation or training this job needs. And heck, when I was a student I earned 1000 net, also working at the airport, in a substentially stressier environment. I would've been more than glad to earn 1500 for this kind of low pre-education needed. But then a payraise of more than 50% on top? That just sounds unreasonable.
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Strike In FRA Tomorrow Likely To Happen

Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:51 pm

it is really surprising that Fraport obviously manages to handle 60 or 70% of the flights, looks like the replacement has freshened up their skills, the ratio was much less yesterday. If that union thinks they want to continue with the strike they might be up for some surprise next week.

.
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Semaex
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RE: Strike In FRA Tomorrow Likely To Happen

Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:24 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 48):
If that union thinks they want to continue with the strike they might be up for some surprise next week.

I wouldn't bet on it, but it would serve them well. Maybe this strike will turn out to be the open wound that Fraport is going to fix now - simply replace the "Follow-Me" system with something more convenient and less costly.


I was at the airport today. Around 80% of domestic flights were cancelled (of which by far the most are easily reachable by train), 40% of european flights were cancelled (where the real problem lies, as there is no alternative), and as far as I can tell no trans-continental flights were cancelled. Mind you, these are rough, subjective figures.

All in all it seemed like the situation was fine. Most LH check-in counters were positioned with "re-booking agents". I did not have a look at T2, but I'm guessing the situation was somewhat the same.
All in all people didn't seem stressed out, but you could definitely tell that most pax did not have any clue why some flights were "Annulliert" - no protests in or around the airport at all. Those 200 workers in question just decided to avoid the airport overall today, how nice.
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.