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DocLightning
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Trent XWB Completes First Flight

Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:38 pm


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http://www.rollsroyce.com/civil/news/2012/120218_XWB.jsp

Surprised nobody has posted it yet. Big milestone for this engine. The fan is only 2" larger than the Trent 900 powering the A380.
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RE: Trent XWB Completes First Flight

Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:27 am

Congrats to Airbus. Airbus made a wise move to slightly delay initiation of engine testing to meke a few changes.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...ock-trent-xwb-first-flight-365023/

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
The fan is only 2" larger than the Trent 900 powering the A380.

We have a few here on a.net who believe the A389 will be Trent XWB powered.   

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RE: Trent XWB Completes First Flight

Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:31 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 1):
We have a few here on a.net who believe the A389 will be Trent XWB powered.

Forgive the dumb question, but would there be any logic to retrofitting this engine to the 380-800? Seems to me it may make sense from a fleet commonality standpoint, but I openly admit to not knowing much on the subject...
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RE: Trent XWB Completes First Flight

Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:30 am

Quoting warden145 (Reply 2):
Forgive the dumb question, but would there be any logic to retrofitting this engine to the 380-800?

Depends. If they were to do so, it would be to support a significant increase in MTOW. That would make an A380 with 77L/A345 range.

The trouble is that there aren't many routes that need that sort of range with that big of a plane. There are few enough routes that support a 77L/A345.
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RE: Trent XWB Completes First Flight

Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:49 am

 
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RE: Trent XWB Completes First Flight

Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:10 am

Quoting warden145 (Reply 2):
Forgive the dumb question, but would there be any logic to retrofitting this engine to the 380-800? Seems to me it may make sense from a fleet commonality standpoint, but I openly admit to not knowing much on the subject...
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):
Depends. If they were to do so, it would be to support a significant increase in MTOW. That would make an A380 with 77L/A345 range.

It would bring CASM down, saving 10T of fuel per trip is logic by itself.
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RE: Trent XWB Completes First Flight

Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:25 am

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
The fan is only 2" larger than the Trent 900 powering the A380.

Just as well they painted the XWB engine blue. I'd swear to God watching the Airbus video that it looks identical to the other 3 engines on the aircraft.....

Like it was meant to be there.....

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 5):
It would bring CASM down, saving 10T of fuel per trip is logic by itself.

At least 10t. Dependent on stage length of course.
Sounds pretty compelling to me. That's the same as adding 400Nm to the range of the aircraft.

Add in fleet commonality as well..

Rgds
 
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RE: Trent XWB Completes First Flight

Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:10 am

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
Surprised nobody has posted it yet.

Well we were busy following the flight to see that they did things right for the A350  .

www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/ge...ral_aviation/read.main/5351041/#69


Here the Airbus press release which came already a couple of hours after the flight:

http://www.airbus.com/newsevents/new...ight-on-airbus-a380-test-aircraft/

"The aircraft took off from Airbus facilities in Toulouse and performed a flight of more than five hours during which the engine covered a wide range of power settings at altitudes up to 43,000ft. The aircraft handling qualities were evaluated from low speeds to Mach 0.9. The engine not only operated flawlessly, but also demonstrated its new-generation fuel efficiency and low noise.

The Trent XWB development engine, specially fitted with test sensors to measure hundreds of parameters, was mounted on the A380’s inner left engine pylon, replacing one of the aircraft’s Trent 900 engines. The crew on board this first flight were: Airbus Experimental test pilots Terry Lutz and Frank Chapman; Experimental Test Flight Engineer Pascal Verneau; and Flight Test Engineers Emanuele Costanzo and Tuan Do.

“The A350 XWB’s engine performed excellently during its first flight-test, just as we expected,” said Charles Champion, Executive Vice President of Engineering at Airbus. “This is a promising start to the Trent XWB’s flight-test programme which will ensure a thorough real-life testing of the engine, nacelle and its systems.” He adds: “This will allow for a high level of powerplant integration, maturity and reliability to be achieved by the time it flies on the first A350 XWB aircraft.” "

And a picture of the flight:

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm262/ferpe_bucket/A350_Trent_XWB_engine_first_flight_on_A380_in_flight.jpg

The engine looks pretty at home there Big grin .

It is good there is a separate thread as this can cover the possible use on the A380   .

[Edited 2012-02-18 22:24:11]
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DocLightning
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RE: Trent XWB Completes First Flight

Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:12 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 5):

It would bring CASM down, saving 10T of fuel per trip is logic by itself.

Wait... it's just a few years younger than the -900 and it's that much better???
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RE: Trent XWB Completes First Flight

Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:43 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):
The trouble is that there aren't many routes that need that sort of range with that big of a plane. There are few enough routes that support a 77L/A345.

The 380 specially with those new XWB engines could do SYD LHR nonstop pretty much as it is. just put some fuel in the center tank....
 
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RE: Trent XWB Completes First Flight

Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:46 am

Quoting packsonflight (Reply 9):
The 380 specially with those new XWB engines could do SYD LHR nonstop pretty much as it is. just put some fuel in the center tank....

Someone better at this than I can run the numbers, but I doubt that would be enough thrust to support that mission. Even still, a lot of passengers on LHR-SYD want to be able to stop halfway through the flight and walk around.
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RE: Trent XWB Completes First Flight

Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:20 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
Wait... it's just a few years younger than the -900 and it's that much better???

About 6% on SFC....., so the saving could be 12t or more. on a 200t fuel burn (like DXB-LAX)

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
Someone better at this than I can run the numbers, but I doubt that would be enough thrust to support that mission.

The current Trent 900's are good for MTOW's of 600 tonnes or so. Remember they still have another 10 000lb + thrust up their sleeves over the engines currently flying.

The 87 000lb of the "standard" Trent XWB should allow MTOW's of around 625 tonnes to 630 tonnes, which is still within the scope of the wing and landing gear configurations, I believe. I say configurations because obviously those items would need to be strengthened.

A 625 tonne A380 with 87k lb Trent XWB's?   
How much plane do you need?  

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RE: Trent XWB Completes First Flight

Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:30 am

Nice to see the XWB program finally entering the visible stages of development.

And congrats to RR/Airbus on the apparently very successful flight.

I'm going to join the choir here and say that the first thing that springs to mind when looking at that is to wonder what's keeping them from slapping 3 more of these on that beast.

I know there's a lot more to it than that, but I'm pretty sure Airbus is seriously considering crossing the development paths of these 2 again in the future...
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RE: Trent XWB Completes First Flight

Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:54 am

Quoting flood (Reply 4):
Nice little video from Airbus:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMjFf...&hd=1

Airbus do this kind of thing so well!   
 
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RE: Trent XWB Completes First Flight

Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:55 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
Wait... it's just a few years younger than the -900 and it's that much better???

Well ... it has been 8 years.
Quote Wiki: The Trent 900 first ran on May 17, 2004 on Airbus' A340-300 testbed
 
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RE: Trent XWB Completes First Flight

Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:31 am

Quoting astuteman (Reply 6):
Just as well they painted the XWB engine blue. I'd swear to God watching the Airbus video that it looks identical to the other 3 engines on the aircraft.....

Hang on are you saying that RR have done the Apple trick of changing the model number and calling it an upgrade? Yes Mr Enders we were going to call it the Trent 900-4S but you're right, Trent XWB sounds much better..  
Quoting astuteman (Reply 11):
A 625 tonne A380 with 87k lb Trent XWB's?
How much plane do you need?

And with any luck the TXWB @ 87klbs will be lighter than a T900 @ 72klbs so further lightening the airframe.
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RE: Trent XWB Completes First Flight

Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:28 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 1):
We have a few here on a.net who believe the A389 will be Trent XWB powered.  

OK, I will admit. I am guilty as charged.  .

Quoting astuteman (Reply 11):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
Wait... it's just a few years younger than the -900 and it's that much better???

About 6% on SFC....., so the saving could be 12t or more. on a 200t fuel burn (like DXB-LAX)

Which is a huge number if you ask me.

Quoting astuteman (Reply 11):
A 625 tonne A380 with 87k lb Trent XWB's?   
How much plane do you need?  

Well, it has to be the 85 meters long SUH version of the A389 of course.      

Quoting francoflier (Reply 12):
Nice to see the XWB program finally entering the visible stages of development.

Well, the parts of the plane are coming together quite nicely. That is very well documented in the A350-XWB development thread. But maybe you meant the engine by itself?

Quoting francoflier (Reply 12):
And congrats to RR/Airbus on the apparently very successful flight.

Those are indeed in place.  .

Quoting PM (Reply 13):
Airbus do this kind of thing so well!  

Luckily for us they do.  .

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 15):
And with any luck the TXWB @ 87klbs will be lighter than a T900 @ 72klbs so further lightening the airframe.

Combined with continuously ongoing weight saving programs this will make the airframe better and better and better.  .

[Edited 2012-02-19 03:30:24]
 
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RE: Trent XWB Completes First Flight

Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:11 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):
The trouble is that there aren't many routes that need that sort of range with that big of a plane. There are few enough routes that support a 77L/A345.

That's because they don't carry enough people to keep CASM down. And there's also the advantage of operating a more fuel efficient A380 over current long haul routes.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 7):
It is good there is a separate thread as this can cover the possible use on the A380

Understatement of the month, perhaps  
 
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RE: Trent XWB Completes First Flight

Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:29 pm

Hi,

I was just watching the documentary "how to build a jet engine" that covers the ins & outs of the RR-factories around Britain. In that, they show the initial stage of the XWB, so a big coincidence I saw this thread today.

Is the XWB similar in size to the 777 engines?

Quoting astuteman (Reply 11):
A 625 tonne A380 with 87k lb Trent XWB's?

Exciting stuff.......I bet that's what KLM is hoping for?? (hope hope)

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RE: Trent XWB Completes First Flight

Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:46 pm

Quoting notaxonrotax (Reply 18):
Is the XWB similar in size to the 777 engines?

Trent XWB = 118in fan diameter
GE90 = 128in

Source: http://www.rolls-royce.com/Images/tr...t_xwb_product_sheet_tcm92-5753.pdf
http://www.geaviation.com/engines/commercial/ge90/ge90-115b.html
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RE: Trent XWB Completes First Flight

Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:54 pm

Add me to the chorus of those who are almost more interested in XWB-powered A380s than XWB-powered A350s...

I just can't even imagine how versatile operators would find an aircraft with nearly 9000 nm range and lower CASM than anything else in the sky. The only weakness is cargo capacity. But there's a fix for that...  
 
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RE: Trent XWB Completes First Flight

Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:36 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 20):
Add me to the chorus of those who are almost more interested in XWB-powered A380s than XWB-powered A350s

The Engineer in me is similarly interested, but the businessman in me (there's a lot of space in there) thinks it's unlikely. Let's say certification takes three years, and there are currently 100 Tr900 engines in service with four airlines. In three years, lets say 300 Trent 900 engines and 10 operators (guesswork). That's a lot of big airlines (BA, DLH, Singapore, Qantas, etc) with 'inferior engines' if the XWB ends up on the A380, making their second hand sale value much lower, and frankly, they're penalised for choice of RR Tr900s.
Would they kick up a fuss?
Damned right. Much financial leverage would be applied. Who knows, maybe Free TXWBs Engines would be in the compensation package. Plus, all the development, research and production costs for the Tr900.... apparently wasted. Even worse, that's a tricky precedent that RR has set. When the Trent XWC is developed...will they now have to give that away?

I'm not saying that it can't happen, or even that it won't happen, but there's more to it than just engineering.

(And yes, I am a miserable old sot.)
 
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RE: Trent XWB Completes First Flight

Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:49 pm

Quoting tepidhalibut (Reply 21):
Damned right. Much financial leverage would be applied. Who knows, maybe Free TXWBs Engines would be in the compensation package.

I very much doubt it. Whenever anyone buys a product, it is always with full awareness that a better product may show up. And while an XWB-powered A380 may be much better than a T900-powered A380, the T900 operators have had several profitable years in service already by the time the XWB-powered variant shows. Perhaps there will be adjustments around the edges to keep the buyers of the very last T900-powered frames happy, but in general I see no need for any compensation or for the T900 buyers to be upset.
 
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RE: Trent XWB Completes First Flight

Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:59 pm

If Airbus can offer an "A380-800R" model with the Trent XWB engine capable of around 9,000 nm still-air range, I think even Air India would snap them up in no time flat, especially flying from New Delhi, Mumbai or Bangalore directly to JFK non-stop. It would make it possible for QF to fly between LAX and SYD/MEL with bigger passenger/cargo loads, too.
 
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RE: Trent XWB Completes First Flight

Sun Feb 19, 2012 3:23 pm

Quoting tepidhalibut (Reply 21):

There are plenty of aircraft that have been re-engined without fuss from airlines, why would the A380 be any different?
 
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RE: Trent XWB Completes First Flight

Sun Feb 19, 2012 3:49 pm

Quoting flash330 (Reply 24):
There are plenty of aircraft that have been re-engined without fuss from airlines, why would the A380 be any different?

I can't think of an example where it would have been done so soon in the airframe's life, though I'm sure someone will come up with something...

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 22):
Whenever anyone buys a product,

Well, in this case, customers aren't just anyone. EK has bought almost half of the A380 ever ordered with most still undelivered. If Airbus was to tell them that their 100 shiny new jets are now worth half their residual value because a newer and better version is already out, I'm guessing they would be one not so happy customer.
I imagine a deal could be made with existing customers if the XWB version was developed soon enough, but that's unlikely as the A350's the priority.

Tepidhalibut (really?  ) has a point.

But it still perfectly would fit the bill on the mythical A389...
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RE: Trent XWB Completes First Flight

Sun Feb 19, 2012 3:57 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 25):

the 777 and the A340, there was only about 8 or 9 years between them both being re-engines, the A380 entered service in 2007 and no one expects an XWB version until 2017 at the earliest so around 10 years
 
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RE: Trent XWB Completes First Flight

Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:16 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 25):
I can't think of an example where it would have been done so soon in the airframe's life


Of course that depends on when you think "soon" is.

Personally I can't see either Airbus or RR turning their attention to a Trent XWB powered A380 until ALL the A350 variants have hit the streets.
So I don't think you're likely to see one enter service much before 2020, personally.
By which time it may well form part of a package of responses Airbus might make to the 777X/Y3.

Then again, by 2020 there may well be better engines than the TXWB to select.
85K lb GTF anyone?  

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RE: Trent XWB Completes First Flight

Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:22 pm

Quoting flash330 (Reply 26):
the 777 and the A340, there was only about 8 or 9 years between them both being re-engines,

The re-engined versions of the 777 and A340 were bigger, longer ranged versions of these frames. Essentially what the hypothetical A389 would be to the A388. But the base versions (77A, 77E, A342, A343 and even the A330s) were never reengined.

Revamping the A388 with new engines would be like what A and B are doing with their A320Neo and 737MAX, only decades sooner.

They'd really have to develop a new version, like the A388R, a bit like what the 77E was to the 77A (though that was a bit different still).
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RE: Trent XWB Completes First Flight

Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:23 pm

Quoting tepidhalibut (Reply 21):
Would they kick up a fuss?



I think that there are a few things to be said.

First: availability. The fact that they have had the opportunity to operate the A380 with a good profit from the time when they received it until - maybe 3-4 years away from now - when the XWB powered A380 will be available at the earliest. Add to this that there will always be a day when the last old model is produced as the new one takes over.

Second: Price. There is no doubt that XWB powered A380 will be more expensive than the 900 powered model - simply because Airbus and RR can charge a higher price due to better economy. The airlines will be able to pocket some of the divided due to a more efficient engine. Certainly not the whole!

Third: commonality. Many of the operators of the A380 will also operate the A350 having the benefit of the commonality.

All in all: They might kick up a fuss - however not too loud.... being able to be compensated with a few A380 XWBs to the old price might even make then quite.
 
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RE: Trent XWB Completes First Flight

Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:36 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
Wait... it's just a few years younger than the -900 and it's that much better???

How soon we forget A380's first flight was 27 April 2005, so getting on seven years ago, and A350XWB's first flight is projected to be 2014, so we're talking about a spread of almost nine years.

The google tells me that the Trent 900 made its maiden flight on 17 May 2004 on Airbus' A340-300 testbed, so by that measure we're talking about a spread of almost eight years.

In Asian Aviation: Trent XWB prepares for flight, we read some juicy details (at least for enginistas!) about what things will make the TXWB better than the T900:

Quote:
The Trent XWB's 118-inch-diameter fan is the largest R-R has ever made. Adoption of a narrower rotor hub than on the Airbus A380's Trent 900 engine has contributed to a lower "hub-to-tip" ratio, with the larger fan blades ("as much as 50 percent" more surface area, R-R says) offering greater air flow and a lower drag-to-weight ratio, according to Trent XWB Chief Engineer Chris Young.

R-R has achieved a higher load differential between the various bearings in the three-shaft powerplant by combining the large fan with a smaller engine core. The "optimised bearing-load management system" results in greater loads being carried further forward in the engine. That permits better mechanical loading in the bearings, which in turn improves fuel efficiency, although Young also concedes that the "more capable" arrangement is also heavier.

"Considerable" innovation is claimed for the Trent XWB's "rising-line" compressor, in which the blades rotate at higher speeds toward the rear of the engine's intermediate-pressure (IP) stage. Performance retention, specifically fuel burn, will be enhanced through the use of increased overall pressure ratios in the two-stage IP turbine (IPT). Specific fuel consumption has been "excellent, better than expected", says Cholerton.

The Trent 900 has provided the source for the Trent XWB's low-pressure turbine (LPT), a nine-inches-shorter scaled version of that on the A380 engine. The reduced weight of the LPT serves to offset that the heavier IPT.

R-R has introduced composites material for the rear fan case, which is supplied by new partner ATK and for which development has gone well, according to Young.

I think the biggest impediment to seeing it on the A380 is the fact that the production line is solidly booked for A350s. Yes, this is a classy problem to have, but still...

The article says:

Quote:

What the company calls "proper production" will begin in the latter part of 2012, while the highest rate – 315 a year, or almost one engine a day – will be reached by about the turn of 2017-18.

Given 561 A350s are ordered, we're north of 1100 engines plus spares that need to be made. Yes, the A380 can be threaded into that stream at some point, but it's not clear where that point is, especially since each A380 will need four engines plus spares.

RR has done a fine job with its widebody engines, but from what is currently known they are not going to be taking part in the orgy of narrowbody re-engining that is going to be going on in the second half of this decade, so they have some very interesting decisions to be made in the next few years.

Surely the TXWB is bringing along better SFC, but it's also bringing along more weight. Clearly it may make sense for Airbus to want to start putting it onto the A380, but what inducement will RR have? The main inducement would be to take customers away from the GE/Pratt engine, but how likely is that? How likely would it be for existing T900 customers to want a sub-fleet of TXWBs mixed in? Isn't it just simpler to keep selling T900s?
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RE: Trent XWB Completes First Flight

Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:57 pm

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 23):

If Airbus can offer an "A380-800R" model with the Trent XWB engine capable of around 9,000 nm still-air range, I think even Air India would snap them up in no time flat, especially flying from New Delhi, Mumbai or Bangalore directly to JFK non-stop.

They can barely fill those routes with a 777, and they can barely pay for their 787s, and your really think they would buy an A380 even if they ordered a 800R model?

back to topic: congrats to Airbus and Rolls Royce, hope they get positive or even better than predicted results from test flights
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RE: Trent XWB Completes First Flight

Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:14 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 30):
Given 561 A350s are ordered, we're north of 1100 engines plus spares that need to be made. Yes, the A380 can be threaded into that stream at some point, but it's not clear where that point is, especially since each A380 will need four engines plus spares.



I would imagine - everything else being equal (which is only rarely the case) - that it would be easier for RR to produce only one rather than two engines for the A380 and A350...
 
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RE: Trent XWB Completes First Flight

Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:01 pm

Quoting abba (Reply 29):
First: availability. The fact that they have had the opportunity to operate the A380 with a good profit from the time when they received it until - maybe 3-4 years away from now - when the XWB powered A380 will be available at the earliest. Add to this that there will always be a day when the last old model is produced as the new one takes over.

However the production ramp-up for the A380 has been pretty slow, so not that many frames will be in use. Typically airlines expect 12-15 years of useful front-line life, some turn them over much faster, but others don't.

Quoting abba (Reply 32):
I would imagine - everything else being equal (which is only rarely the case) - that it would be easier for RR to produce only one rather than two engines for the A380 and A350...

Well, as above, TXWB is quite different in terms of materials and technology, and that means a production ramp-up, so we just aren't close to the point in time where it'd be better to having just one engine type in production.

I could see it happening in several years time once RR's production line is up and running, and IF they find a big customer willing to make a new, big commitment, for instance, if EK did drop the Gp7200 in favor of ordering at least 20+ A380s with TXWBs.
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RE: Trent XWB Completes First Flight

Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:04 pm

Quoting Chiad (Reply 14):
Well ... it has been 8 years.
Quote Wiki: The Trent 900 first ran on May 17, 2004 on Airbus' A340-300 testbed

Still, as compared to the CF6/PW4k/RB211 engines it's replacing, it's a leap forward. In engine time, eight years isn't a whole lot. I'm surprised the technology got that much better from one model to the next. After all, the Trent 900 was RR's latest large engine until the XWB.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 30):
In Asian Aviation: Trent XWB prepares for flight, we read some juicy details (at least for enginistas!) about what things will make the TXWB better than the T900:

Very nice! (Titillating, I daresay! ) Thank you!

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 23):

If Airbus can offer an "A380-800R" model with the Trent XWB engine capable of around 9,000 nm still-air range,

You're talking about an aircraft with slightly less performance than the 77L but almost twice the size. Given that the 77L hasn't sold very many copies, I think that the A388R would sell even worse. Now, it was mentioned in the article above that the engine would have different loading, and so that might mean that the wing and wingbox for the A388R might have to be redesigned and recertified (can't just plug the engine on to the existing strut attachment point).

If they ever go ahead with an XWB-powered A388F, then an A388R is a no-brainer (100% common components with other A388 models=nominal extra cost).

The big issue in this case is that it would probably be eight or ten years from now, and if the -XWB, a mere eight years younger than the -900, is so much better, wouldn't it make sense for RR to design a new engine for the uprated A388?
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tepidhalibut
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RE: Trent XWB Completes First Flight

Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:26 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 34):
After all, the Trent 900 was RR's latest large engine until the XWB.

Ahem Trent 1000?  

Of course, all the planning by a.net members seems to naturally assume that the TXWB with be a right-first-time, all targets met product. It's not even bench certified yet !

That said, well done to RR/AI in getting it in the air ahead of bench cert.  
 
Aircellist
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RE: Trent XWB Completes First Flight

Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:29 pm

Quoting astuteman (Reply 27):
Quoting francoflier (Reply 25):
I can't think of an example where it would have been done so soon in the airframe's life


Of course that depends on when you think "soon" is.

Personally I can't see either Airbus or RR turning their attention to a Trent XWB powered A380 until ALL the A350 variants have hit the streets.
So I don't think you're likely to see one enter service much before 2020, personally.
By which time it may well form part of a package of responses Airbus might make to the 777X/Y3.

Then again, by 2020 there may well be better engines than the TXWB to select.
85K lb GTF anyone?

So, there could be the choice of cannibalizing oneself's product, or waiting to be eaten by someone else's...

But... I suppose the early A380s could be reengined, no? Could that ease the previous owner's pains?
"When I find out I was wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?" -attributed to John Maynard Keynes
 
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Revelation
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RE: Trent XWB Completes First Flight

Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:51 pm

Quoting aircellist (Reply 36):
So, there could be the choice of cannibalizing oneself's product, or waiting to be eaten by someone else's...

The waiting seems to be inevitable in this case, since TXWBs won't be available in suitable numbers for quite a while.

And there really isn't anything around that can push the A380 off its perch at the top of the food chain right now.

Quoting aircellist (Reply 36):
But... I suppose the early A380s could be reengined, no? Could that ease the previous owner's pains?

No, they aren't going to throw away the current engines just for the 6% SFC gain, it just doesn't make economic sense.
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RE: Trent XWB Completes First Flight

Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:43 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 37):

Fair enough. Thanks!
"When I find out I was wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?" -attributed to John Maynard Keynes
 
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RE: Trent XWB Completes First Flight

Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:37 am

I can hardly claim to be disinterested, impartial, unbiased or wholly objective when it comes to RR but it does seem that all the news about the Trent XWB is good news. It makes me nervous!

The argument about irritating existing customers by pole-axing the resale value of their T900-powered A380s has been made before and I think it has some validity. But I suspect there could be ways around it if the TXWB-powered A380 was so very much better.

Another argument that has been made elsewhere is that RR have somewhat different teams of risk-sharing partners on the two Trents. Prematurely stopping production of the 900 in favour of the XWB may not be simple. But, again, I bet this obstacle could be overcome.

It strikes me that the arguments about the availability of TXWBs (or lack thereof) is the crucial one. I personally don't think we'll ever see an A380 with four TXWBs. Far more likely (at which point I acknowledge that I have no technical knowledge or expertise), is that the T900 will be steadily improved, doubtless with the application of some of the TXWB bells and whistles. The story of the Trent 700 should be the template. That engine is far, far better now than it was back in the 1990s. That way, current generation T900s aren't immediately rendered out of date and suppliers and risk-sharing partners don't face a sudden truncation of their business but airlines do get steadily better and better Rolls-Royce engines.

At which point the question becomes ... what do the Engine Alliance do about it?   

Lastly, should we now give up all hope that RR will ever drop the ridiculous TXWB name?  
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Trent XWB Completes First Flight

Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:30 am

Quoting tepidhalibut (Reply 35):

Ahem Trent 1000?  
Quoting PM (Reply 39):
Lastly, should we now give up all hope that RR will ever drop the ridiculous TXWB name?  

Yeah. That ship sailed...er...plane flew long ago.
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warden145
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RE: Trent XWB Completes First Flight

Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:37 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 40):
Yeah. That ship sailed...er...plane flew long ago.

What does XWB even mean in this context?
ETOPS = Engine Turns Off, Passengers Swim
 
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RE: Trent XWB Completes First Flight

Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:51 am

Quoting warden145 (Reply 41):

What does XWB even mean in this context?

Extra wide-body. The A350 is the first single-deck widebody that Airbus has made that has a larger fuselage diameter than the A300/A310/A330/A340. One of the gripes that operators had about the original A350, which was a re-wing/re-engined A350, was that the fuselage cross-section needed to be bigger.
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warden145
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RE: Trent XWB Completes First Flight

Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:54 am

Okay, that makes sense for the aircraft designation, but why on Earth apply that designation to the engine?

I imagine that's a rhetorical question...
ETOPS = Engine Turns Off, Passengers Swim
 
Wisdom
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RE: Trent XWB Completes First Flight

Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:36 am

Quoting aircellist (Reply 36):
So, there could be the choice of cannibalizing oneself's product, or waiting to be eaten by someone else's...

But... I suppose the early A380s could be reengined, no? Could that ease the previous owner's pains?

Technically, no problem.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 37):
But... I suppose the early A380s could be reengined, no? Could that ease the previous owner's pains?

No, they aren't going to throw away the current engines just for the 6% SFC gain, it just doesn't make economic sense.

It's not that certain, it depends on many factors.
When the GP72/T900's reach overhaul, huge expenses are incurred. At such stage, one could make the call and decide to fit a new TXWB instead of overhauling the GP72/T900.
Moreover, the old engines can be sold to other operators who decide to not retrofit the engines and instead elect to buy these older engines to save through lower engine ownership cost.
A 6% SFC gain can be a saving of around 8 to 10 grand a day at current fuel prices, that's about the same as the lifecycle capital depreciation of the TXWB engines if bought at list prices.
Engines typically go for less than 50% off of list prices, so it should be worth retrofitting, especially if newer deliveries are equipped with them and/or if there are A350's in the same fleet and the TX380 and TXWB engines have advanced levels of commonality.

Airbus and RR better hurry, the opportunity is huge.
If they can figure out a way to fit them across all 3 widebody families, including the A330's, why not even interchangeabily with minor mx work such as intake/ exhaust and control software swap, with little compromise, they can offer customers a flexibility that would give them no reason to buy any Boeing aircraft anymore.

[Edited 2012-02-19 19:50:40]
 
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BoeingVista
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RE: Trent XWB Completes First Flight

Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:24 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 34):
You're talking about an aircraft with slightly less performance than the 77L but almost twice the size. Given that the 77L hasn't sold very many copies, I think that the A388R would sell even worse.

Why? No one is forcing you to use all the range. Putting XWB's on the A388 turns it into an R no other changes are necessary. HKG to NYC with 500 seats would be irresistible for certain airlines.

Quoting PM (Reply 39):
Another argument that has been made elsewhere is that RR have somewhat different teams of risk-sharing partners on the two Trents. Prematurely stopping production of the 900 in favour of the XWB may not be simple. But, again, I bet this obstacle could be overcome.

Most of the risk sharing partners are the same for the TXWB and T900, the ones that are different won't own much of the T900 project so are unlikely to be able to influence the RR if they choose to offer the TXWB for the A380.

Quoting PM (Reply 39):
At which point the question becomes ... what do the Engine Alliance do about it?

This is an argument for the TXWB, EA might be able to make incremental improvements to keep up with an improving T900 but shifting to the TXWB would kick EA in the guts.

Quoting PM (Reply 39):
The argument about irritating existing customers by pole-axing the resale value of their T900-powered A380s has been made before and I think it has some validity. But I suspect there could be ways around it if the TXWB-powered A380 was so very much better.

EK would be the ones hacked off, this could be an issue for A.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 37):
No, they aren't going to throw away the current engines just for the 6% SFC gain, it just doesn't make economic sense

I'm sure that you can get a decent trade in on a Rolls Royce  
Quoting Revelation (Reply 30):
I think the biggest impediment to seeing it on the A380 is the fact that the production line is solidly booked for A350s. Yes, this is a classy problem to have, but still...

Why do we assume that the RR TXWB production line is sold out just because the airframe production line is?

Not saying that its going to happen but nearly all of the engineering challenges for TXWB engineering on an A380 have already been achieved, in practical terms Airbus are a lot closer to re-engining the A380 than the A320 in that they have the engine, have engineered the pylon, done any strengthening and / or fuel system work, fitted it to the plane and flown it. As Astuteman says they are now at the FADEC tuning stage.
BV
 
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RE: Trent XWB Completes First Flight

Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:14 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 45):
EK would be the ones hacked off, this could be an issue for A.

Serves them right for picking the wrong engine!  
 
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RE: Trent XWB Completes First Flight

Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:32 am

Quoting PM (Reply 46):
Serves them right for picking the wrong engine!

They still have a chance to redeem themselves, if they switched say 50 EA's to TXWB's I'm sure that airbus would build them   EK could do with a few extra k lbs of thrust out of DXB anyway.

As to TXWB availability the A350 has EIS has been moved backwards, this should free up some engines.

I mentioned strengthening in a post above but if should be noted that as far as I know no structural alterations have been made to F-WWOW plus the FF press release mentioned that the flying TXWB contained an extra 500kg of instrumentation over a production standard engine.

Quoting Wisdom (Reply 44):
especially if newer deliveries are equipped with them and/or if there are A350's in the same fleet and the TX380 and TXWB engines have advanced levels of commonality.

Its a win win that GE/RR used to have in the 767 / 747 days.

So many reasons for the A380NEO, I'd say delivery could be achieved the 2015-16 timescale and launch the A389 on the back of the NEO for 2017-19.
BV
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Trent XWB Completes First Flight

Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:52 am

Quoting warden145 (Reply 43):
Okay, that makes sense for the aircraft designation, but why on Earth apply that designation to the engine?

Because the engine powers the XWB? And they hit 1000 anyway, so they went in a different direction.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 45):
Putting XWB's on the A388 turns it into an R no other changes are necessary.

If you're going to de-rate it, sure. But if you're going to put an XWB there, it makes no sense to do so just for SFC improvement without allowing the engine to use its thrust. To do that, you need to increase the MTOW, alter the spars and wingbox, gear, add a fuel tank or two, etc.

And now you have at least as big a change as from the 772/3 to the 77L/R
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WingedMigrator
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RE: Trent XWB Completes First Flight

Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:14 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 47):
as far as I know no structural alterations have been made to F-WWOW

Absolutely none whatsoever, excepting a whole new engine pylon.  

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