jayeshrulz
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Smoky Aircraft - Lufthansa A340-642?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:47 am

I was just going through some great pictures of LH, and i couldn't help but notice the abnormally visible amount of smoke coming from the LH A346 engines.
Ive never seen that on any modern Airbus Aircraft, apart from the heat blaze.
Why is the black smoking coming out?


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Clydenairways
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RE: Smoky Aircraft - Lufthansa A340-642?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:11 am

That seems very odd.

The only explanation i could give is maybe the lighting conditions were enhancing the engine exhaust. And also maybe the aircraft is training and exercising a missed approach.
 
oldeuropean
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RE: Smoky Aircraft - Lufthansa A340-642?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:24 am

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 1):
maybe the aircraft is training and exercising a missed approach.

That must be the reason why we see a LH A346 in MLA.

[Edited 2012-02-22 03:25:14]
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something
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RE: Smoky Aircraft - Lufthansa A340-642?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:39 am

It's quite common after maintenance (or new aircraft, or aircraft that come out of storage) to see a smoke trail behind them. The reason for that is mainly excess oil that is being burnt.
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
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zkojq
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RE: Smoky Aircraft - Lufthansa A340-642?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:39 am

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 2):
That must be the reason why we see a LH A346 in MLA.

The main reason for Lufthansa flying wide-bodies to MLA is that they get some heavy maintenance performed at Lufthansa Technik Malta. That said, they likely also use those flights for crew training.
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jayeshrulz
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RE: Smoky Aircraft - Lufthansa A340-642?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:30 pm

Thank You.
From what i know, they send the A321 from FRA there. How often does LH send a widebody there?
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EI747SYDNEY
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RE: Smoky Aircraft - Lufthansa A340-642?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:03 pm

Most likely burning off excess oil!

     
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Burkhard
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RE: Smoky Aircraft - Lufthansa A340-642?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:09 pm

I can confirm that isn't the normal view at clear sky...
 
SASMD82
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RE: Smoky Aircraft - Lufthansa A340-642?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:23 pm

A small oil leak in the engines or uncleaned combustion chambers? That can happen with brand new engines.

But you are right, as far as I am concerned, the only 'smoking' engines today usually come from P&W, certainly not from RR.
 
ljupco
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RE: Smoky Aircraft - Lufthansa A340-642?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:13 pm

Quoting zkojq (Reply 4):
Lufthansa Technik Malta.

Maybe a little out of subject, but I'm curious why LH has maintenance center in Malta? Isn't it a little far from Germany. or costs for engineers, hangars and runway fees are low at Malta's airport!!
 
solarflyer22
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RE: Smoky Aircraft - Lufthansa A340-642?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:19 pm

Quoting something (Reply 3):

It's quite common after maintenance (or new aircraft, or aircraft that come out of storage) to see a smoke trail behind them. The reason for that is mainly excess oil that is being burnt.

That was my thinking as well. It might take an hour or two to burn off. Malta does seem like a strange place for maintenance.
 
trnswrld
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RE: Smoky Aircraft - Lufthansa A340-642?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:54 pm

Looks like an old 707 taking off lol.
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: Smoky Aircraft - Lufthansa A340-642?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:37 pm

Quoting EI747SYDNEY (Reply 6):
Most likely burning off excess oil!
Quoting something (Reply 3):
The reason for that is mainly excess oil that is being burnt.

You all sure about that? Oil burns a lot lighter in color than that. Could the engines not be running a bit rich? I know that's controlled electronically, but I'm sure it could still happen.

As well, it could just also be that the engines are due for cleaning. Does Technik perform that action during a standard hvy mx visit?
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zkojq
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RE: Smoky Aircraft - Lufthansa A340-642?

Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:10 am

Quoting ljupco (Reply 9):

Maybe a little out of subject, but I'm curious why LH has maintenance center in Malta? Isn't it a little far from Germany. or costs for engineers, hangars and runway fees are low at Malta's airport!!

I think that it would be because of lower costs. A maintenance engineer in Malta would probably expect a much lower wage than one in Germany. Landing fees in Malta are probably cheaper also. The difference in costs must be greater than the cost to ferry the aircraft back and fourth from Munich. The fact that both nations use the Euro makes things easier for Lufthansa.
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AR385
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RE: Smoky Aircraft - Lufthansa A340-642?

Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:13 am

Quoting something (Reply 3):
The reason for that is mainly excess oil that is being burnt.

Isn´t the smoke from oil almost white?
 
boeingorbust
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RE: Smoky Aircraft - Lufthansa A340-642?

Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:19 am

Quoting TrnsWrld (Reply 11):
Looks like an old 707 taking off lol.
http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices...lery/images/commercial/dc8-05.html

no no my friend... it's light in comparison lol! Granted it's a DC-8 but I've seen 707 photos much the same!

And I thought the oil burn was a lot lighter and blue coloured almost. You can see that at engine start up on a cold morning and it seems that on airbus' in general that those starts are particularly smokey... Not sure why but I've seen it moreso on the A320 family as well as the A300 series.
 
something
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RE: Smoky Aircraft - Lufthansa A340-642?

Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:27 pm

Quoting zkojq (Reply 13):
I think that it would be because of lower costs. A maintenance engineer in Malta would probably expect a much lower wage than one in Germany. Landing fees in Malta are probably cheaper also. The difference in costs must be greater than the cost to ferry the aircraft back and fourth from Munich. The fact that both nations use the Euro makes things easier for Lufthansa.

Munich doesn't install cabins; the A346 in the picture went to Malta to have the new first class installed; Hamburg (the other place this is done) is working at capacity.

Lufthansa Technik needed to expand their business, tried Malta plc out at the time (2000s), they did a satisfying job at competitive cost, Lufthansa formed a joint venture (LH 92%, Malta plc 8%), specialized in C-Checks, then built a new 60 000m² hangar and is now doing cabin fittings (that's why you see Etihad and Brussels Airlines heavies there as well).

It's cheaper to have work done there than in Germany, the gov't is very much behind this project and you should not forget that oil is really cheap - Virgin flies their birds to MNL for maintenance, various Chinese airlines have gone to Malta before, Qantas A380s are being serviced in FRA, airplanes are being flown half way around the world to be scrapped, painted, converted, stored etc. all the time. So while Malta is in a good location to work with mediterrean customers, their reputation and the lower cost structure is doing a lot more for them than any geographic advantage could ever do.
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
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zkojq
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RE: Smoky Aircraft - Lufthansa A340-642?

Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:39 pm

Quoting something (Reply 16):
Munich doesn't install cabins

I was actually referring to Munich because that is where most of the Airbus widebodies are based.  
What you said about Lufthansa Technik Malta is very interesting.
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something
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RE: Smoky Aircraft - Lufthansa A340-642?

Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:02 pm

Quoting zkojq (Reply 17):
I was actually referring to Munich because that is where most of the Airbus widebodies are based.

Most A346 yes, most Airbus widebodies, no. (FRA: 37 (10x A346), MUC: 25 (14x A346))

The aircraft in question went to Malta for a C-Check. This downtime is used to install the new first class, LHT HAM was full so bringing it to Malta was the only option. But it's very possible that due to the lower cost structure of LHT MLA it's actually cheaper to position the bird back and forth, than to have it done at MUC (if such facilities existed).

You also have to consider how cheap the land on Malta is, how much cheaper it is to build the hangar there, the tax structure of Malta and lastly, many if not most of these parts are shipped - Malta has a harbor, Hamburg has a harbor, Munich doesn't and would require quite a bit of trucking.

Again, people can cry about the gas price all they want, but oil is still pretty damn cheap.
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
jayeshrulz
Topic Author
Posts: 349
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RE: Smoky Aircraft - Lufthansa A340-642?

Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:52 am

Quoting darksnowynight (Reply 12):
You all sure about that? Oil burns a lot lighter in color than that. Could the engines not be running a bit rich? I know that's controlled electronically, but I'm sure it could still happen.
Quoting AR385 (Reply 14):
Isn´t the smoke from oil almost white?

Exactly my thoughts. Oil burns in a lighter color. And what do you mean when you said engines run a bit rich?

Quoting Boeingorbust (Reply 15):

Haha that's quite some smoke. Wasnt it due to water injection that time?
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: Smoky Aircraft - Lufthansa A340-642?

Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:12 am

Quoting jayeshrulz (Reply 19):
And what do you mean when you said engines run a bit rich?

Just that they would be running a slightly higher fuel component in the fuel/air mixture than what they were designed for. Again, I'm not sure how probable that is, but I know it is certainly possible in any turbine engine. It could just also (and more likely, IMO) be that the engine hot section is dirty and is expelling a great deal of soot under more than a certain amount of thrust.

I always think it's neat to see when a plane takes off, for example, with one clean and one dirty engine, and you can obviously tell which is which.
Be A Perfectionst, You're Nothing If You're Just Another; Something Material, This Isn't Personal...
 
bluejuice
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RE: Smoky Aircraft - Lufthansa A340-642?

Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:20 am

Skip to 5:47 for the real action

The J79s wearing civilian clothing as the CJ805 can still turn the area from VFR to IFR with one flyby.  
 
tp1040
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RE: Smoky Aircraft - Lufthansa A340-642?

Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:31 pm

Smoke them if you got them. B-52s with water injection.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cq6Hpxyrhyo

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