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canadianpylon
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AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract

Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:30 pm

Air Canada mechanics, baggage handlers reject labor

Another union at Air Canada has rejected a tentative contract. The article says they have a mandate to strike, but probably won't.

Recent history has shown that a Strike threat from the union invokes a swift response from the government ala Lisa Raitt.
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AC_B777
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RE: AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract

Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:22 am

Not me...I voted in favor of the TA. I thought, as did many of my co-workers here in YYT that it was about as good as it was going to get.
I expected to see a 7-9% raise over 4 years with very little else, but we were offered an 11.7% increase over 4 years plus an extra weeks vacation that we lost 7 years ago.
Well, it should be interesting to see what the company and union negotiate now...chances are it will end up being less than what was offered in this first agreement.
Let the bashing begin...AGAIN!!
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yyz717
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RE: AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract

Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:24 am

Hopefully Lisa Raitt will stay out of this, and let a strike happen.

Quoting AC_B777 (Reply 1):
we were offered an 11.7% increase over 4 years plus an extra weeks vacation that we lost 7 years ago.

How can a money-losing business offer pay increases like this? Is anyone competent running HQ?
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
VonRichtofen
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RE: AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract

Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:53 am

I've heard support for the contract was strong out west and it was primarily YYZ and YUL that sank it.
 
boeingorbust
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RE: AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract

Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:54 am

I hope all the AC employees the best with their contracts. It's been tough to see the trouble that AC has been going through lately with unions and finances. Hopefully they can sort these things out and get organized and start making some $$ again! I feel for u guys!

Lol yyz717, we need to direct that guy from the other post to this forum as a little evidence. Yep AC competes so well!
 
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canadianpylon
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RE: AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract

Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:39 pm

Quoting Boeingorbust (Reply 4):
Lol yyz717, we need to direct that guy from the other post to this forum as a little evidence. Yep AC competes so well!

Amen!

I'm a little perplexed by this seemingly repeating pattern of union heads reaching a tentative agreement, and having it voted down by the general membership.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 2):
Quoting AC_B777 (Reply 1):
we were offered an 11.7% increase over 4 years plus an extra weeks vacation that we lost 7 years ago.

How can a money-losing business offer pay increases like this? Is anyone competent running HQ?

It would be really hard to base a fair assessment of the contract on a couple of stated facts. Maybe there were other concessions in the contract. Maybe there was an attrition/out sourcing clause? More money per person, less people?

Based on the fact that the contract got rejected, there probably are. What are these concessions? Only the people that voted on the contract know that.

I think it is unfair to assume the 'compentency of HQ' based on the limited knowledge of a news article and one line from a worker.

Edited to fix some grammar.

[Edited 2012-02-23 08:49:23]
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robsaw
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RE: AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract

Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:36 pm

Problem is the still prevailing we're a "public service/crown corporation" (but they really aren't) attitude amongst the many old-time workers at AC. They think they must have a good raise every year regardless of general economics or specific profitability of their employer.
 
threepoint
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RE: AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract

Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:17 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 2):

How can a money-losing business offer pay increases like this? Is anyone competent running HQ?

Pay increases that barely cover the rate of inflation? At a time when increases in company revenue are outpacing said inflation? There are a host of structural problems at AC, but modest pay increases do not count among them.


Quoting canadianpylon (Reply 5):

I think it is unfair to assume the 'compentency of HQ' based on the limited knowledge of a news article and one line from a worker.

It is very easy to sit behind an anonymous computer and take potshots at a situation about which one knows very little, all the while offering no suggestions.
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WestJet747
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RE: AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract

Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:30 am

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 2):
How can a money-losing business offer pay increases like this? Is anyone competent running HQ?

What's your address? I'm going to mail you my management textbooks. Anyone with a management bone in their body knows that happy employees are productive employees. I'm pretty sure even Kevin O'Leary knows that.

Quoting canadianpylon (Reply 5):
I'm a little perplexed by this seemingly repeating pattern of union heads reaching a tentative agreement, and having it voted down by the general membership.

This just adds to my suspicion of union heads. I have always maintained that union heads have ulterior agendas (as minor as they may be) and don't always convey the appropriate message to the people they are paid to represent in good faith.

Quoting threepoint (Reply 7):
Pay increases that barely cover the rate of inflation? At a time when increases in company revenue are outpacing said inflation? There are a host of structural problems at AC, but modest pay increases do not count among them.

  
Flying refined.
 
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yyz717
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RE: AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract

Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:49 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 8):
What's your address? I'm going to mail you my management textbooks.

Suggest you keep your textbooks, and look up how revenue needs to be greater than expenses for sustainable businesses. It should be on page 1, chapter 1. You'll get to it when you open the cover. It's not hard.

Quoting threepoint (Reply 7):
It is very easy to sit behind an anonymous computer and take potshots at a situation about which one knows very little, all the while offering no suggestions.

Then why do it?

The fact remains that AC is not a going concern with its current business model and performance. Revenue HAS to exceed expenses on a sustainable basis, or the business will fold eventually. AC cannot cover these employees' current salaries, let alone these overly-generous increases.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
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longhauler
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RE: AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract

Sun Feb 26, 2012 3:48 pm

Quoting AC_B777 (Reply 1):
I expected to see a 7-9% raise over 4 years with very little else, but we were offered an 11.7% increase over 4 years plus an extra weeks vacation that we lost 7 years ago.

This certainly does appear generous ... why then was it voted down?

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 9):
Revenue HAS to exceed expenses on a sustainable basis, or the business will fold eventually. AC cannot cover these employees' current salaries, let alone these overly-generous increases.

The increase offered was certainly generous, the salaries are not. My nephew recently was hired as a Station Attendant at AC, at minimum wage, and part-time as most are ... his salary was about $1400 a month! He eventually quit and is working for Swissport now. Same job, higher pay. I am guessing AC is raising wages in an effort to stop employees from leaving.

Yes, employees salaries have to be covered. As do landing fees ($12,000 to land a Triple at YYZ), fuel costs, operating costs, catering costs, etc etc etc .... I just hope there is an attempt to reduce costs everywhere in the airline, not just the employees.

No, Air Canada will not fold. If anything the last couple years events have shown us is that if anyone even farts twice, the Government has back to work legislation pending, citing how essential AC is to Canada's economy. (Their words, not mine).

With over $10B of revenue a year, AC is this huge money-moving machine. Paying Billions in government and quasi government fees and taxes, keeping employees and ancillary employees working. Face it, AC is not set up to make a profit, is not making a profit, and will not make a profit ... but, is generating huge amounts of money for everyone ... except Air Canada.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
Whiteguy
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RE: AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract

Sun Feb 26, 2012 3:58 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 10):
No, Air Canada will not fold. If anything the last couple years events have shown us is that if anyone even farts twice, the Government has back to work legislation pending, citing how essential AC is to Canada's economy. (Their words, not mine).

Funny how they say that yet they seem to have no issue with AC attempting to move jobs to a an off shore company. I wonder how that'll affect the Canadian economy?

I hope that this will open the governments eyes to the real problem at AC. The company, not the employees!!!!
This is the fourth major union that has turned down the TA and taken a strike vote after months and months of negotiations and feet dragging by the company. The employees are obviously not happy!
 
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yyz717
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RE: AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract

Sun Feb 26, 2012 5:05 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 10):
Quoting AC_B777 (Reply 1):
I expected to see a 7-9% raise over 4 years with very little else, but we were offered an 11.7% increase over 4 years plus an extra weeks vacation that we lost 7 years ago.

This certainly does appear generous ... why then was it voted down?

More fundamentally, why did AC mgmt even offer such generous increases?

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 11):
I hope that this will open the governments eyes to the real problem at AC. The company, not the employees!!!!

It's both. The ongoing losses show that AC management is not up to the job of running AC. The high unit costs of the airlines (25% higher than WS) show that AC employees are, on average, grossly overpaid.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 10):
No, Air Canada will not fold. If anything the last couple years events have shown us is that if anyone even farts twice, the Government has back to work legislation pending, citing how essential AC is to Canada's economy. (Their words, not mine).

With over $10B of revenue a year, AC is this huge money-moving machine. Paying Billions in government and quasi government fees and taxes, keeping employees and ancillary employees working. Face it, AC is not set up to make a profit, is not making a profit, and will not make a profit ... but, is generating huge amounts of money for everyone ... except Air Canada.

As a for-profit private sector carrier, AC can and could fold unless it gets its act together.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
saloman
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RE: AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract

Sun Feb 26, 2012 5:56 pm

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 11):
Funny how they say that yet they seem to have no issue with AC attempting to move jobs to a an off shore company. I wonder how that'll affect the Canadian economy?

The government's point that AC is essential to the Canadian economy has little to do with the few thousand AC employees but rather the fact that transportation in a country of our size is essential to the economy. While this is no doubt true to an extent, the fact is that a labour disruption would disrupt the travel plans, business or pleasure, of far more Canadians than AC employees - it's a simple electoral numbers game. Government's take political heat when these things happen, just look at Australia during the Qantas strikes.

Specifically to the question of moving jobs off-shore, if that means moving more Canadians at lower prices it will more than make up for the lost government revenue associated with sending jobs to another jurisdiction. The point is that AC job numbers have nearly no affect on the Canadian economy, but rather it is the transportation service provided that does.
 
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longhauler
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RE: AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract

Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:08 am

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 12):
It's both. The ongoing losses show that AC management is not up to the job of running AC. The high unit costs of the airlines (25% higher than WS) show that AC employees are, on average, grossly overpaid

Yes, but remember what I said on an earlier post. Using the 4th quarter and year end results of both airlines ...

The average cost per equivalent full time employee, INCLUDING pension and benefits at both AC and WS are within 2 %, of each other. And during that time, each AC employee produced more RPMs than each WS employee, and a 23% more revenue. Yet ... you keep incorrectly saying AC employees are unproductive and overpaid.
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canadianpylon
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RE: AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract

Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:51 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 12):
It's both. The ongoing losses show that AC management is not up to the job of running AC. The high unit costs of the airlines (25% higher than WS) show that AC employees are, on average, grossly overpaid.

That is is unfair comparison. CASM is a reflection of the entire cost of operation of the airline, not just the employee wages.

Air Canada and Westjet are different airlines... Air Canada has regional feeder server and international long-haul operations. These two types of service invariably cost more to operate, but potentially produce more revenue.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 14):
The average cost per equivalent full time employee, INCLUDING pension and benefits at both AC and WS are within 2 %, of each other. And during that time, each AC employee produced more RPMs than each WS employee, and a 23% more revenue. Yet ... you keep incorrectly saying AC employees are unproductive and overpaid.

Exactly.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 9):
The fact remains that AC is not a going concern with its current business model and performance. Revenue HAS to exceed expenses on a sustainable basis, or the business will fold eventually. AC cannot cover these employees' current salaries, let alone these overly-generous increases.

Revenue > Expenses. Of course. But if you are trying to increase staff retention(hiring & training is very expensive) and increase morale (productivity), cutting salaries is not a good way to do it. Air Canada MAY have discovered that it is exactly cheaper to pay a bit more for it's existing staff than it is to rehire 10% (for example) of it's staff every year.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 10):
Face it, AC is not set up to make a profit, is not making a profit, and will not make a profit ... but, is generating huge amounts of money for everyone ... except Air Canada.

   May be the most accurate assessment of Air Canada I've read in a long time.
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ANM604
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RE: AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract

Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:19 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 10):
The increase offered was certainly generous, the salaries are not. My nephew recently was hired as a Station Attendant at AC, at minimum wage, and part-time as most are ... his salary was about $1400 a month! He eventually quit and is working for Swissport now. Same job, higher pay. I am guessing AC is raising wages in an effort to stop employees from leaving.

That is the reality of starting a new job, you are the lowest paid employee there. However, I'd say the travel benefits more then make up for that difference in pay between AC and Swissport. The only thing is, there are so many old rampee's making 65-80k a year, that they have to pay new hires so little.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 14):
The average cost per equivalent full time employee, INCLUDING pension and benefits at both AC and WS are within 2 %, of each other

While 2% might seem like a trivial amount, it certainly adds up when you take into account the # of employees AC has. I don't think AC will ever be able to lower their unit cost to near WS. I think WS will have a rising cost of their own, as the company gets older, and so do their employees.
 
AC_B777
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RE: AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract

Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:35 pm

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 16):
I'd say the travel benefits more then make up for that difference in pay between AC and Swissport. The only thing is, there are so many old rampee's making 65-80k a year, that they have to pay new hires so little.

Actually, new hires do not get any travel benefits for the first six months of their employment. And by then, their seniority is so low, that in most cases, it is hard for them to get on flights. Also, starting in March, we are only getting three "free" passes a year and after that we have to pay all the surcharges and fees, which, when said and done will hardly be worth using...better off buying a good seat sale.
As for the 65-80K per year, I can assure you that our salary is nowhere near that! I am at the top of our wage scale and my gross salary is in the mid 40k (and that is working some modest OT). Take off all our deductions, and my net salary is in the mid 30k per year, so where you get 65-80k is a mystery. That might be possible if you live at the airport and work OT night and day!
Actually, our current salary is sitting at mid 1990 levels!
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longhauler
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RE: AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract

Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:57 pm

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 16):
While 2% might seem like a trivial amount, it certainly adds up when you take into account the # of employees AC has.

For that extra 2%, AC employees are generating 23% more revenue per employee .... seems like a pretty good deal to me, from an efficient employee group.

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 16):
However, I'd say the travel benefits more then make up for that difference in pay between AC and Swissport.

As noted above, it is hardly a "benefit". And, making $1400 a month, how much traveling do you think they are doing??? Its probably all they can do to pay the rent!

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 16):
there are so many old rampee's making 65-80k a year

I love these urban legends. People swear that their neighbours son's girlfriend's sister's father makes that as an AC Station Attendant and he only works 4 days a month. But, when it comes to fact, it is barely half your estimate. And trust me I have heard them all.
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threepoint
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RE: AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract

Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:36 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 12):
AC employees are, on average, grossly overpaid.

Would you please be so kind as to explain exactly which employee groups are, in your opinion, grossly overpaid? Please take care to include comparisons to equivalent employees of other airlines (Canadian or otherwise), or even to rofessions within other industries with comparable duties, staff, responsibilities, etc. Also note that among your readers will be members of the very employee groups you compare, so will be able to support your assessments.

Or not.
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yyz717
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RE: AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract

Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:03 am

Quoting threepoint (Reply 19):
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 12):
AC employees are, on average, grossly overpaid.

Would you please be so kind as to explain exactly which employee groups are, in your opinion, grossly overpaid?

Most likely, all. Based on 2 key statistics reported ad nauseum by AC and airline analysts:
1. AC's horrendous financials. This means very simply that expenses are exceeding revenue which is not sustainable. That salaries/wages form a huge component of AC costs.......they are going to have to fall across the board if AC is to become financially sustainable,
2. Several airline analysts reguarly quote that AC unit costs are 25% higher than WS (the standard bearer of an efficient, profitable, sustainable airline in Canada). This means productivity must rise by 25% or pay must drop by 25% or a mix of the 2 to reach levels of WS efficiency WS. Yes yes I know ppl keep saying that AC has widebodies and long haul routes....but these actually serve to increase efficiency (the opposite excuse that AC apologists want).

Airline analysts crunch the numbers and do their analysis WITHOUT any emotional bond to Montreal, or employee entitlements. So they have no bias for or against AC......but they do consistently report 25% higher unit costs than WS. Any AC employee can be expected to react emotionally to this (thinking they already work hard or are paid little blah blah blah) but their counterparts' efficiency at others carriers belies their whining.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
StarAC17
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RE: AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract

Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:12 am

Quoting canadianpylon (Reply 15):

Revenue > Expenses. Of course. But if you are trying to increase staff retention(hiring & training is very expensive) and increase morale (productivity), cutting salaries is not a good way to do it. Air Canada MAY have discovered that it is exactly cheaper to pay a bit more for it's existing staff than it is to rehire 10% (for example) of it's staff every year.

  
Most people forget thaat employees cost much more than they are paid initally and for an airline its more than just training, security clearance and backlground checks can't be cheap.
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ANM604
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RE: AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract

Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:07 am

Quoting AC_B777 (Reply 17):
Also, starting in March, we are only getting three "free" passes a year and after that we have to pay all the surcharges and fees, which, when said and done will hardly be worth using...better off buying a good seat sale.
As for the 65-80K per year, I can assure you that our salary is nowhere near that! I am at the top of our wage scale and my gross salary is in the mid 40k (and that is working some modest OT). Take off all our deductions, and my net salary is in the mid 30k per year, so where you get 65-80k is a mystery. That might be possible if you live at the airport and work OT night and day!

Even with all the surcharges and fees you might have to pay, I guarantee you are still saving a substantial amount of money. Go on to your Aeronet and check the employee travel rates for a YVR-SYD return trip, and then compare the rates you can find online. Also, the fact you get 3 "free" passes a year baffles me. I'd love to hear you explain why you think AC should pay all the taxes and fees for you to travel? That salary is easily attainable by the senior guys (I'm talking 20+ years), and is often exceeded. Without saying too much, I've seen the numbers myself, and there ARE guys making that much. I will agree most of the newest hires (under 10 years seniority) won't come close to that.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 18):
For that extra 2%, AC employees are generating 23% more revenue per employee .... seems like a pretty good deal to me, from an efficient employee group.
Quoting longhauler (Reply 18):
As noted above, it is hardly a "benefit". And, making $1400 a month, how much traveling do you think they are doing??? Its probably all they can do to pay the rent!

Making $1400 before tax or after? You say working part-time, how many hours is that? Of course he can't afford to travel if he's only working part-time, why doesn't he work full time then? I'm not sure I see your point here, even $1400 a month on 20 hours a week is nothing to sneer at.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 18):
love these urban legends. People swear that their neighbours son's girlfriend's sister's father makes that as an AC Station Attendant and he only works 4 days a month. But, when it comes to fact, it is barely half your estimate. And trust me I have heard them all.

You claim it's an urban legend, but have you seen all the employee payroll numbers? My understanding is that you're a pilot, not a financial guy working out of HQ, so I'm not sure how you can qualify your statement that it's only half that. I'm sure the majority of rampee's are less then the 65-80k a year range, but the fact remains there ARE numerous guys making that much a year. This I guarantee you. I'm sure you'll ask for proof, but understand that I'm not in a position to put an individual's, or a companie's financial information online for all to see.
 
Whiteguy
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RE: AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract

Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:29 am

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 22):
Even with all the surcharges and fees you might have to pay, I guarantee you are still saving a substantial amount of money. Go on to your Aeronet and check the employee travel rates for a YVR-SYD return trip, and then compare the rates you can find online. Also, the fact you get 3 "free" passes a year baffles me. I'd love to hear you explain why you think AC should pay all the taxes and fees for you to travel? That salary is easily attainable by the senior guys (I'm talking 20+ years), and is often exceeded. Without saying too much, I've seen the numbers myself, and there ARE guys making that much. I will agree most of the newest hires (under 10 years seniority) won't come close to that.

Anything overseas you do save but if you look at YYC to YVR or to YWG the savings aren't alot. Most short haul seat sales are pretty comparable. As for the 3 free, they are not free. You don't pay the services charges but you do pay the taxes. If your quoting aeronet then you should know that!

When it comes to the pay there are very few that could make that much money. Employees are limited to 104 hrs of OT per quarter. Pretty much makes it impossible to get to that amount. You don't need to work there 20+ years to make top rate. After 6 months you can become a lead and after another year you'll be at Lead 2 pay. That's more than top rate Station Attendants after just a year and half.

The most I ever made as a lead was in 2000 & 2001 after the takeover of CP. I think the most I made was 54k! After that my pay went down continually till I left.
 
ANM604
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RE: AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract

Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:14 am

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 23):

I'm sure short-haul domestic isn't that great, but the savings are still there, which was my original point. To say the flight benefits are worth nothing is selling it short IMHO. If I was 18, that would be a great way to see the world, even if you are on a budget. Just because you don't make much, doesn't mean you can't travel. I wasn't quoting Aeronet, and I guess I should have been more clear. Those three free passes a year could add up to significant value if they were used on long haul segments, so I was trying to point out the fact that even if some service charges have to be paid, they are still a good deal to the employee.

As for the pay, 104 hours of OT is a significant amount, even if it were only time and a half. Easily could add $10,000 or more a year to your earnings. All it takes to crack the 50k/yr mark is around $26/hr, of which I'm sure there are several making that. Add in some OT and the potential is there to make above 60k. Is it limited to a small percentage of employees? Sure, but it certainly does exist. I'm sure some of the guys who do the towing, deicing etc earn extra on their salary.
 
AC_B777
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RE: AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract

Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:31 pm

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 22):
Even with all the surcharges and fees you might have to pay, I guarantee you are still saving a substantial amount of money. Go on to your Aeronet and check the employee travel rates for a YVR-SYD return trip, and then compare the rates you can find online. Also, the fact you get 3 "free" passes a year baffles me. I'd love to hear you explain why you think AC should pay all the taxes and fees for you to travel? That salary is easily attainable by the senior guys (I'm talking 20+ years), and is often exceeded. Without saying too much, I've seen the numbers myself, and there ARE guys making that much. I will agree most of the newest hires (under 10 years seniority) won't come close to that.

Yes, it is still a savings, but not free. I am in Florida right now and my pass cost $215 for my family of 4. That was taxes, AIF's and some other fees. Yes it is a substantial savings, but it is all standby (we almost didn't get on our flight from YYT).
I've flown many times where I have gotten stuck for 3-4 days trying to get home and spent $300-$500 on hotels and meals.

Nowhere in my post did I say I think AC should pay for all the taxes and fees...get your eyes checked and stop misquoting me!

My salary is no different than with guys with "20+ years". I am a Station Attendant (with 14 years in), and our top wage is just over $23/hr. A Lead Station Attendant makes about a $1.50/hr more. All SA's at the top of the wage scale make the same thing...doesn't matter if it's in YYZ, YUL, YYC, YVR or YYT! That's our base salary.
If you know Station Attendants who are making 65k-80k per year, then they are living and breathing overtime. They are NOT making that for their basic salary. That would be a breach in our union contract, plus, I guarantee AC would not pay SA's that much for their basic salary!
In life, some days you are the bug..... some days you are the windshield!
 
threepoint
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RE: AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract

Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:24 pm

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 22):
I'm sure the majority of rampee's are less then the 65-80k a year range, but the fact remains there ARE numerous guys making that much a year. This I guarantee you. I'm sure you'll ask for proof, but understand that I'm not in a position to put an individual's, or a companie's financial information online for all to see.

I sniff a whiff of make-believe here. Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but if you're at the top end of your stated age in your profile, you are fresh out of university with an accounting or BCom degree and working the books at AC with authorization to view individual salaries (the only way one can confidently make a "guarantee"). Possible, but unlikely, as motivated young people in that position rarely take a publicly adamant position on internet forums. Or maybe you have a loose-lipped relative?
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
Skywatcher
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RE: AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract

Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:09 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 10):
With over $10B of revenue a year, AC is this huge money-moving machine. Paying Billions in government and quasi government fees and taxes, keeping employees and ancillary employees working. Face it, AC is not set up to make a profit, is not making a profit, and will not make a profit ... but, is generating huge amounts of money for everyone ... except Air Canada.

Very lucidly stated. The government and employees are the primary beneficiaries of the AC business model. Customers generally do well by it. Investors definately do not.

Quoting AC_B777 (Reply 25):
Yes, it is still a savings, but not free. I am in Florida right now and my pass cost $215 for my family of 4. That was taxes, AIF's and some other fees. Yes it is a substantial savings, but it is all standby (we almost didn't get on our flight from YYT).

I just flew YUL-FLL as a "joe public" customer and it cost me $500 for 1 person as a matter of comparison. By the way, the service offered by all AC staff was really quite good.
 
VonRichtofen
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RE: AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract

Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:23 pm

Rampers making 65-85k? Yeah if they're a top rate lead doing 20 hours of OT per week for the entire year. Not a chance.
 
ANM604
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RE: AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract

Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:21 am

Quoting AC_B777 (Reply 25):
Nowhere in my post did I say I think AC should pay for all the taxes and fees...get your eyes checked and stop misquoting me!

My salary is no different than with guys with "20+ years". I am a Station Attendant (with 14 years in), and our top wage is just over $23/hr. A Lead Station Attendant makes about a $1.50/hr more.
If you know Station Attendants who are making 65k-80k per year, then they are living and breathing overtime. They are NOT making that for their basic salary. That would be a breach in our union contract, plus, I guarantee AC would not pay SA's that much for their basic salary!

From your post it seemed you were unhappy that you only got three "free" passes a year so I simply read between the lines. If that's not what you meant then I apologize, no need to get rude. As well, I never said they are making 65-80k a year in base salary, I was saying they could make that much including OT, which I pointed out numerous times. And OT is not hard to come by at the airport, its there if you want it, and I'm sure there are guys who most definitely take as much as they can get. $215 for a family of 4 is an incredible savings, like Skywatcher just pointed out, fares to FLL are not cheap. Once again, I'll point out that these flight passes offer an incredibly cheap way to see the world, and for employee's to just say "yeah but its not free" or that its only "standby", is understating the value of them. I'm sure most of the general public would love to have access to fares that cheap, and that is evident by the number of applicants AC gets when job openings are posted.

Quoting threepoint (Reply 26):

In the future, please keep the speculation as to what I may, or may not do, or see, to yourself, thanks.
 
Whiteguy
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RE: AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract

Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:53 am

@ANM604

For a station attendant making $23 per hour, thats $44,200 per year. If he/she worked 104 hrs of OT all 4 quarters per year that would be salary of $58,000 per year. A far cry from your $65-80 a year.

A lead making $26 per hour could hit $65000 but there are not many.

Your making it sound like it's a common occurrence!
 
ANM604
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RE: AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract

Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:19 am

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 30):
Your making it sound like it's a common occurrence!

I have acknowledged several times that it is not a common occurrence, I completely agree with you on that. All I said/meant is that there are people hitting that mark.

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 24):
Is it limited to a small percentage of employees? Sure, but it certainly does exist.

In any event, we are straying from the topic. I'm curious as to why there seems to be such a disconnect between union heads and members. Numerous TA's being reached, then voted down. What gives? Perhaps you could offer some insight into what the feeling is on the ramp whiteguy?
 
Whiteguy
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RE: AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract

Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:44 am

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 31):
In any event, we are straying from the topic. I'm curious as to why there seems to be such a disconnect between union heads and members. Numerous TA's being reached, then voted down. What gives? Perhaps you could offer some insight into what the feeling is on the ramp whiteguy?

Maybe the employees are sick of being called on to sacrifice? The CEO has made a 1500% increase in wage since 2002, the CFO has made a 385% raise, and the COO has made 453% raise. Maybe people should be focusing on those numbers!!!

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 16):
The only thing is, there are so many old rampee's making 65-80k a year, that they have to pay new hires so little.

Right here you make it sound like a common occurance.
 
ANM604
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RE: AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract

Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:32 am

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 32):

While I was alluding to the seemingly disconnected union bargaining committee, yes there is a disparity between the top executive pay and what is expected of the rest of the employees. However, adding up the total pay of those 3 will not solve AC's financial problem, which is beyond this thread topic. That being said, an 11% wage increase over 4 years is a good start, I'm curious why it was rejected by union members? Is there an expectation more is achievable?

Also, I agree my initial post did allude to there being a substantial amount of guys making amount, which I didn't mean. I meant to say there is a percentage of them making wages like that.
 
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longhauler
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RE: AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract

Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:19 pm

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 22):
Making $1400 before tax or after? You say working part-time, how many hours is that? Of course he can't afford to travel if he's only working part-time, why doesn't he work full time then? I'm not sure I see your point here, even $1400 a month on 20 hours a week is nothing to sneer at.

This is before tax ... and at 30 hours a week. Don't forget all new hires make around minimum wage. $300 x 52 weeks divided by 12.

They would love to work full time, but that is not offered, and hasn't been for almost a decade.

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 22):
My understanding is that you're a pilot, not a financial guy working out of HQ, so I'm not sure how you can qualify your statement that it's only half that

I think everyone else on here adequately answered your misconception. I was going on the actual paycheck of my nephew, working as an actual Station Attendant at YYZ ... that is before he told AC to stick a B777 where the sun don't shine!
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
threepoint
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RE: AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract

Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:38 pm

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 29):

In the future, please keep the speculation as to what I may, or may not do, or see, to yourself, thanks.

When one advances arguments on a public web forum that indicate that they have access to sensitive private company information that pertains to a current debate, one has an implied obligation to back up one's claims. In the absence of such confirmation, there is no choice but to surmise, assume, guess or speculate.

Laying down a point as 'fact':

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 22):
the fact remains there ARE numerous guys making that much a year. This I guarantee you.

...and then saying the effect of "just trust me".... doesn't cut it and in no way distinguishes one from all the teenage fans posting from their basement bedroom.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 34):
stick a B777 where the sun don't shine!

YYT?
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
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longhauler
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RE: AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract

Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:14 pm

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 33):
However, adding up the total pay of those 3 will not solve AC's financial problem, which is beyond this thread topic.

And continually reducing employee wages wont solve the problem either.

If AC employees generate more RPMs, and revenue per employee than WS, yet costing close to WS's employee costs INCLUDING pensions ... then even my Australian Sheppard could figure out that the reason AC is not generating profit is NOT the employees.

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 33):
I'm curious why it was rejected by union members? Is there an expectation more is achievable?

This actually IS the meat of this thread ... why was it voted down?

Maybe the employees are sick of being told they are the problem when they are not. Do they think they can get more ... probably not. If four employee groups vote down their negotiated contract renewal ... maybe the problem is not the employees, but the way they are treated.

I like a management team to "lead by example". Westjet and Japan Air Lines are excellent examples of that, and I envy and respect the relationship Westjet shares between management and employees. For AC employees to follow a management lead, they should all receive a 500% raise, and get a $5M bonus on April 1, 2012 for poorly running the airline.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
ANM604
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RE: AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract

Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:48 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 36):
the reason AC is not generating profit is NOT the employees.

So beyond employee costs, and the obvious fuel costs, where are the losses coming from? It's got to be somewhere. In my opinion, the capacity purchase agreement with Jazz, as well as having Embraer's, AB, and Boeing's are not helping AC's finances. I'd also love to see the Government lower the taxes as well, but we all know the odds of that happening.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 36):
I like a management team to "lead by example". Westjet and Japan Air Lines are excellent examples of that, and I envy and respect the relationship Westjet shares between management and employees

Couldn't agree more. Beyond a wholesale management change (which is unlikely), can you think of ways for them to improve this? The disconnect between management and the employees is huge, and I'd like to think that's not helping the company in the drive for profitability.
 
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longhauler
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RE: AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract

Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:55 pm

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 37):
can you think of ways for them to improve this? The disconnect between management and the employees is huge

Let me give you an example:

I came from Canadian Airlines, and in 1996 Canadian was in financial trouble. I went to a presentation in the hangar on Convair Drive at YYZ, where it was said that we were expected to give back a 10% wage reduction. The CEO, Kevin Benson, stood before us with his power-point presentation ready. He started by telling us we were the most productive employees in North American, how we got the best utilization per aircraft from any airline in North America, how we produced the most revenue, and how are passenger service experience was well ahead of our main competition, Air Canada.

He then said, that while we were not the problem, we may be the only solution. He went on to say how the banks and suppliers were all willing to give us a break, as long as the employees gave back 10%. By the time he was done, we were all on board and felt we were part of the solution.

Fast forward to 2003:

Air Canada had entered CCAA. Robert Milton stood before the employees, with no visual aids, but he berated us for being, lazy, inefficient, and had "sucked on AC's teat for too long". (Ironically enough, MIlton alone siphoned almost $4B from AC's teat over the next 5 years!)

He said we were the main problem with AC, and it was about time we "paid the piper".

(For the record, AC's employee performance was no more or less than average among large world air carriers, and as the future would show .., were no where near the "main problem".)

....

Two very different managemnet styles aimed at the same result ... you tell me which would be the most effective? Then maybe you might understand why AC is where it is today.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
WestJet747
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RE: AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract

Fri Mar 02, 2012 3:00 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 38):

Great story longhauler. I've heard dozens of examples just like this in my management classes. Even my most callous of professors preaches the importance of a strong corporate culture, because no matter what some may say, it WILL have an effect on the profitability of the organization.

WestJet took a step in the right direction many years ago when they assigned a manager who deals solely with maintaining their superior management-employee relations. I cannot remember his exact title (Director of Culture or something like that) but I had the opportunity to see him speak a couple years ago and what I gathered was that they basically wrote the book when it comes to keeping everyone happy. Whatever amount they pay this guy, its a winning investment.
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Whiteguy
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RE: AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract

Fri Mar 02, 2012 3:54 am

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 33):
That being said, an 11% wage increase over 4 years is a good start, I'm curious why it was rejected by union members? Is there an expectation more is achievable?

It wasn't about the wage increases. It was about certain work rules, shifts, and pension. This was a 4 year contract but 1 year was already gone because the contract has been expired since last year. Also the majority of things agreed to and returned to the employees don't kick in until the end of this year. That's already 2 years into the contract and the employees still haven't got anything back.

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 37):
In my opinion, the capacity purchase agreement with Jazz, as well as having Embraer's, AB, and Boeing's are not helping AC's finances.

I disagree. With ACs network you need the different aircraft. The EMBs and airbuses can't fly the routes the boeings fly. Also the airbuses are to big for some the routes the EMBs fly. You need the right aircraft for the right route.
 
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longhauler
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RE: AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract

Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:56 am

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 37):
In my opinion, the capacity purchase agreement with Jazz

The capacity purchase agreement with Jazz was signed by the previous management during CCAA. This was the first successful effort to extract cash from Air Canada. On the signing of this very lucrative agreement (for Jazz), "shares" of Jazz were sold. Instead of that cash going back into Air Canada ... it was collected by ACE Aviation, and divided among foreign investors.

If Air Canada were to ever enter into CCAA again, it will be to get out of the CPA with Jazz/Chorus, then allow them to bid against all other capable and cheaper carriers.

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 37):
Embraer's, AB, and Boeing's are not helping AC's finances

No it is not. The fleet plan was to have two narrow body fleets, the E175/190 fleet and A319/320/321 fleet and two wide body fleets, the B777 and B787. This would be very efficient, especially with the Status pay proposed. However the delay of the B787 has let to an inefficient fleet, and keeping the A330s longer than planned has not helped.
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canadianpylon
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RE: AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract

Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:57 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 38):
Let me give you an example:

Great story Longhauler. Anybody who has taken a Communications course will tell you that is the PERFECT way to deliver bad news and still maintain a positive relationship with the audience.

I think that the thread has gone astray a little, but this is very interesting banter.

Is there anybody have any insight as to why the contract was voted down after being agreed to by the union heads?
Always looking for the longest route with the most transfers.
 
connies4ever
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RE: AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract

Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:36 pm

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 40):
I disagree. With ACs network you need the different aircraft. The EMBs and airbuses can't fly the routes the boeings fly. Also the airbuses are to big for some the routes the EMBs fly. You need the right aircraft for the right route.

As WS are starting to discover even with their 'baby' 736s. Te new regional carrier is in part a response to this.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 41):
If Air Canada were to ever enter into CCAA again, it will be to get out of the CPA with Jazz/Chorus, then allow them to bid against all other capable and cheaper carriers.

Agree entirely. It will be Air Georgian and Sky Regional, more than likely.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
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yyz717
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RE: AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract

Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:41 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 38):
Air Canada had entered CCAA. Robert Milton stood before the employees, with no visual aids, but he berated us for being, lazy, inefficient, and had "sucked on AC's teat for too long".

RM came across as crass and vulgar even when talking to the press. I'm not surprised he was worse in front of employee groups.

Regardless, all AC employees remain voluntarily employed. So no one can complain about AC pay under RM or now. Any AC employee is free to resign at any time and seek employment elsewhere if the work conditions are too unpleasant.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
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yyz717
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RE: AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract

Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:18 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 39):
Even my most callous of professors preaches the importance of a strong corporate culture, because no matter what some may say, it WILL have an effect on the profitability of the organization.

WestJet took a step in the right direction many years ago when they assigned a manager who deals solely with maintaining their superior management-employee relations. I cannot remember his exact title (Director of Culture or something like that) but I had the opportunity to see him speak a couple years ago and what I gathered was that they basically wrote the book when it comes to keeping everyone happy. Whatever amount they pay this guy, its a winning investment.

Corporate culture is not something you can put your finger on. It is usually driven by one thing and one thing only...profits. Profits will keep the jobs intact and salary increases flowing. Nothing else.

What will happen to WS's corporate culture if they ever start losing money? It will go down the toilet just like AC's. Costs will be cut and the first position to go will be this feel-good-do-nothing Director of Culture.

Don't listen too much to your univ professors. I have an MBA also and most of my profs were washed up academics who could not have survived in the real (for-profit) world, even though they "taught" business (as if it CAN be taught). Few of them have real world experience and ALL if them are looking for "trends" that define business success. "Corporate culture" is good for one class lesson. Check.

But it's really all about profits. Nothing else. Really.

AC mgmt need to be tougher with unions to get costs down now. These employee wage give-aways far in excess of common sense and productivity will only hurt AC.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
ANM604
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RE: AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract

Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:28 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 38):
Two very different managemnet styles aimed at the same result ... you tell me which would be the most effective? Then maybe you might understand why AC is where it is today.

I completely agree, I believe AC management is too disconnected from their employees. But the question remains, what should they do about it? Fire Calin and the rest of the top executives? There is always talk of slashing top executive pay, but good luck getting anyone really qualified to come to AC and assume the CEO, making far less then he/she could be elsewhere, and dealing with labour groups who already hate the CEO. It's a bit of a catch 22, the pay is usually what attracts good talent, and by slashing the compensation, do you think they will have any luck finding any *qualified* takers?

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 40):
I disagree. With ACs network you need the different aircraft. The EMBs and airbuses can't fly the routes the boeings fly. Also the airbuses are to big for some the routes the EMBs fly. You need the right aircraft for the right route.

In a perfect world it would be nice to have the right plane, for the right route every time, but I don't think AC can justify having so many separate fleets just for niche routes. Do they really benefit from having the limited amount of 330's and 321's? Or would they be better served using say 320's/767's/772's? I wonder why they have kept the 330's, as I cant really find a route that really needs them. What if they had approached Boeing and said "our 787's are late, we want the 330's gone, find us something", what they could have gotten. Whether it was more 767's, or even more 772's, I think they would have been better off eliminating the 330 fleet asap.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 41):
No it is not. The fleet plan was to have two narrow body fleets, the E175/190 fleet and A319/320/321 fleet and two wide body fleets, the B777 and B787. This would be very efficient, especially with the Status pay proposed. However the delay of the B787 has let to an inefficient fleet, and keeping the A330s longer than planned has not helped.

Agreed. Like I said above, I just wonder if they could have done more to address the inefficiencies, instead of just staying status quo. I'm sure they aren't using $100 bills for toilet paper at HQ, but I think they could have worked out some sort of deal with Boeing.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 41):
If Air Canada were to ever enter into CCAA again, it will be to get out of the CPA with Jazz/Chorus, then allow them to bid against all other capable and cheaper carriers.

The current agreement costs AC over $1 billion a year, I'd expect they could see some substantial savings if it was opened up to bidders. When does the current CPA with Jazz expire? I believe they renegotiated in 2009, but I can't remember the exact dates.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 45):

While I agree with you on some points, I think you are underestimating the value of having a good "corporate culture". Employees will likely be much more understanding and flexible if they start to face tough times when they know that this isn't just an attempt to squeeze more money out of them. Having a good relationship between employee's and managers, especially at an airline, cannot be underestimated. This is something that AC is suffering from. Just look at the posts.
 
connies4ever
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RE: AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract

Sun Mar 04, 2012 9:44 pm

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 46):
In a perfect world it would be nice to have the right plane, for the right route every time, but I don't think AC can justify having so many separate fleets just for niche routes. Do they really benefit from having the limited amount of 330's and 321's? Or would they be better served using say 320's/767's/772's? I wonder why they have kept the 330's, as I cant really find a route that really needs them. What if they had approached Boeing and said "our 787's are late, we want the 330's gone, find us something", what they could have gotten. Whether it was more 767's, or even more 772's, I think they would have been better off eliminating the 330 fleet asap.

The 321 is essentially a 320. There should be basically no mx issues and the a/c has a common type rating with the 320 and 319. As for the 330, I'd bet they were acquired because they were available, and more 767s were not, at least in a reasonable time frame. The 330 is excellent fro YVR/YYC-LHR and YYC-FRA, for example, as yuo can lift about 60 more pax than a 763. Also it can haul a lot of freight over that route. They were even dispatching them YVR-NRT for a while.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
YVRLTN
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RE: AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract

Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:29 pm

Honestly, for the size of Canada and type of markets served, I think the fleet is the lessor of the worries. Apart from the 330's, there are four distinct groups - T7's, 767's to be replaced by 787's, A32S & EJets. One debate is whether the Embraers should go over to Jazz/Express flying and if that would save costs.

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 46):
What if they had approached Boeing and said "our 787's are late, we want the 330's gone, find us something", what they could have gotten

Im surprised they didnt get winglets for the 767's considering they have such a large fleet. However, I am very sure they have got something out of Boeing for the late 787's in terms of discounting or a deal on the T7's so good they dropped the A340 like a hot potatoe - just that we dont know about it.

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 46):
Whether it was more 767's, or even more 772's, I think they would have been better off eliminating the 330 fleet asap.

They only have the 200LR, of which they dont need more for the same reason most airlines in the world dont need them. Introducing the 200ER goes against your argument. Despite being some of the older birds out there, the fact is the A330 is a fantastic plane and there were rumors of them adding to the fleet to replace 767's, not eliminate it. I wonder if they are kicking themselves they didnt.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 47):
The 321 is essentially a 320. There should be basically no mx issues and the a/c has a common type rating with the 320 and 319

  

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 47):
As for the 330, I'd bet they were acquired because they were available,

At the time, they were common rated with the now departed A340 fleet in terms of crewing. Obviously having an inventory for Trent engines and now an orphan fleet is going to be a cost, but we know they carefully looked at it and they must have decided the pros of keeping them outweighed the cons - eg additional revenue from both pax & cargo as Connies mentioned.

Personally I think they should get more new build 300's for YYZ/YUL-Europe, S America, Caribbean & Hawaii and use the 788 for the other longhaul routes & smaller markets.
Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
 
ANM604
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RE: AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract

Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:57 am

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 47):
The 330 is excellent fro YVR/YYC-LHR and YYC-FRA, for example, as yuo can lift about 60 more pax than a 763. Also it can haul a lot of freight over that route.

What about 767-400's? I'm sure they could have gotten some if they really wanted. I think that would have been a great looking plane in AC's colours!

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 48):
One debate is whether the Embraers should go over to Jazz/Express flying and if that would save costs.

I'm not sure sending them to Jazz would save much money, if any. The one thing I'm wondering, is if they even need the 170's? Why not replace them all with 190's (or the C-series as some have been wishing for). The 170's can't do anything out west, so why not get rid of the 15 (maybe send them to Jazz?) and add 15 190's.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 48):
However, I am very sure they have got something out of Boeing for the late 787's in terms of discounting or a deal on the T7's so good they dropped the A340 like a hot potatoe - just that we dont know about it.

I believe Boeing did inject a substantial amount of money into AC during the last financial crisis. I don't think they got any spectacular deals on the T7's as they really didn't know the extend of the 787 delays when they ordered them. Also, I believe Boeing had a hand in the latest 767's that have arrived (ex HA).

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 48):
They only have the 200LR, of which they dont need more for the same reason most airlines in the world dont need them.

Which is? I don't see why they couldn't replace some of the 330's with the LR's and maybe some additional 767's (whether they are 300 or 400's). Their 772's have only slightly less J seats then the 330's and cargo capacity is close as well. Although I do think the 330 is a great plane, I think they would have been better off getting rid of the 330's and replacing them with 772LR's.

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