Tobias2702
Topic Author
Posts: 286
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Final Report On LH Cargo Flight 8460

Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:28 am

Saudi authorities have issued the final report investigating the crash of an LH Cargo MD-11 at Riyadh Airport on 27 July 2010. It can be downloaded for example here:
http://news.aviation-safety.net/2012...uts-cause-md-11f-landing-accident/

Strangely, the terms "Lufthansa", and "D-ALCQ" (also in images) are blacked out in the published version. I don't get it, what's the reason behind it?

[Edited 2012-02-23 03:30:16]
PA, AF, UK, BA, AB, DL, LH, FR, BD, A3, EZY, DY //// A319/320/346, B733/735/73G/738/744/763, AT4, 146, CR2, DH4
 
bennett123
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RE: Final Report On LH Cargo Flight 8460

Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:57 pm

What is the latest point at which the landing could have been aborted?.
 
Unflug
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RE: Final Report On LH Cargo Flight 8460

Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:49 am

Quoting Tobias2702 (Thread starter):
Strangely, the terms "Lufthansa", and "D-ALCQ" (also in images) are blacked out in the published version. I don't get it, what's the reason behind it?

The German law regarding accident reports does in fact state that reports have to keep information on involved persons anonymous - see § 18 par (2):

http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/bundesrecht/fluug/gesamt.pdf

The BFU claims on its German site that this rule is the reason for blackening the operator name and registration:

http://www.bfu-web.de/cln_030/nn_223...Riyadh__Ver_C3_B6ffentlichung.html

I have no idea why the operator and aircraft are treated like "persons"...
 
PanHAM
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RE: Final Report On LH Cargo Flight 8460

Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:33 am

Quoting Unflug (Reply 2):
I have no idea why the operator and aircraft are treated like "persons"...

companies are juridicial persons represented by their officers.

The aircraft registration is blackend out same as car license plates on TV reports..
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garpd
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RE: Final Report On LH Cargo Flight 8460

Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:30 am

Can the registrations of German aircraft be re-issued?

If so, maybe that's why it is redacted, so that when re-issued to another plane, some moron won't panic everyone by saying "Oh, this plane crashed and burned previously!"
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PanHAM
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RE: Final Report On LH Cargo Flight 8460

Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:37 am

Yes, the regs can be re-issued. LH owns a long list and regs like D-ABYE have been on a good number of 4holers.

But that's not the point. Except a.netters and spotters the average public would not even know where to locate a reg on an aircraft.
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Starglider
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RE: Final Report On LH Cargo Flight 8460

Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:48 am

Hmmm . . .must be an error in the report on page 4 and 5:

First touchdown: -13 ft/sec descent rate (780 ft/min): normal load factor of 2.1g,

Second touchdown: -11 ft/sec descent rate (660 ft/min): normal load factor of 3.0g,

Third touchdown: -17 ft/sec descent rate(1020 ft/min): normal load factor of 4.4g.

The first 2 values, correct me if i'm wrong, should be swapped as a higher descent rate results in a higher load factor.

-13 ft/sec = 3.0g

-11 ft/sec = 2.1g

Or am i missing something?
 
na
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RE: Final Report On LH Cargo Flight 8460

Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:20 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 5):
Yes, the regs can be re-issued. LH owns a long list and regs like D-ABYE have been on a good number of 4holers.

LH is superstitious  No row 13, no row 17, no re-issue of the registration of a crashed plane. Look at the new 748Is coming, where D-ABYB is being left out because a plane with that reg crashed almost 40 years ago.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Final Report On LH Cargo Flight 8460

Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:25 am

You may be right, although, whenever I get rwo 14 I know it is actually no.13..

Now the horse grooms can be happy that no future all cargo aircraft will receive the reg of that MD11.
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tdscanuck
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RE: Final Report On LH Cargo Flight 8460

Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:58 pm

Quoting Starglider (Reply 6):
The first 2 values, correct me if i'm wrong, should be swapped as a higher descent rate results in a higher load factor.

-13 ft/sec = 3.0g

-11 ft/sec = 2.1g

Or am i missing something?

The descent rate is how fast the aircraft CG is moving vertically, the normal load factor is how fast the CG is accelerating...although there is some correlation between them, you can't directly convert one to the other. For one thing, they're different units...one is a velocity, one is an acceleration. But, more importantly, the normal load factor is all about how hard the airplane is pitching up at the moment of touchdown, which is independant of sink rate.

Tom.
 
Tobias2702
Topic Author
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RE: Final Report On LH Cargo Flight 8460

Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:46 pm

Quoting na (Reply 7):
LH is superstitious No row 13, no row 17, no re-issue of the registration of a crashed plane.

Though, today there is again an aircraft called "Landshut" (a 733 if I'm not mistaken). The hijacking of the Landshut in 1977 (a 737-200) might be the most famous event involving an LH aircraft.
PA, AF, UK, BA, AB, DL, LH, FR, BD, A3, EZY, DY //// A319/320/346, B733/735/73G/738/744/763, AT4, 146, CR2, DH4
 
Starglider
Posts: 657
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RE: Final Report On LH Cargo Flight 8460

Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:55 am

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 9):
The descent rate is how fast the aircraft CG is moving vertically, the normal load factor is how fast the CG is accelerating...although there is some correlation between them, you can't directly convert one to the other. For one thing, they're different units...one is a velocity, one is an acceleration. But, more importantly, the normal load factor is all about how hard the airplane is pitching up at the moment of touchdown, which is independant of sink rate.

Tom,

Thanks for your explanation and adding the missing pieces. Goes to show one is never too old to learn.



Starglider

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