PHLBOS
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US Files Objections To PHL Expansion

Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:37 pm

Since the old thread on this subject has since been archived; the below-link gives the latest update

US Airways Files Objections to Philadelphia Airport Expansion

Key Exerpt (Bold emphasis added):

"If we are unable to operate profitably from Philadelphia, we may need to significantly reduce our business at Philadelphia, or move that business to another of our hubs," US Airways said.

"Our business, financial condition, and results of operations could be harmed by an increase in airport rates and fees charged by Philadelphia International Airport in connection with, and following, the airport expansion."


Personal take: everything has a price even an airline hub. It looks like the PHL hub for US isn't as sacred as many thought. Although I would've thought US would reduce its PHL hub only if it merged with another carrier that has a neighboring hub.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
simairlinenet
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RE: US Files Objections To PHL Expansion

Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:13 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Thread starter):
Personal take: everything has a price even an airline hub. It looks like the PHL hub for US isn't as sacred as many thought.

This is just posturing. Delta made similar threats 1-2 years ago to move a substantial portion of traffic from Atlanta to Memphis. Did they? No. Would they have? Highly unlikely.

[Edited 2012-02-23 06:13:37]
 
EricR
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RE: US Files Objections To PHL Expansion

Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:54 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Thread starter):
Personal take: everything has a price even an airline hub. It looks like the PHL hub for US isn't as sacred as many thought.



Absolutely. A business exists to make money. If the hub turns unprofitable, it is not out of the question that it will be eliminated, especially when facing high oil prices this year.

However, US has a very limited number of hubs (unlike DL or UA) and cannot close PHL without significant impacts to their network, so it does seem to be a lot of posturing at this point.

But I think this reinforces the fact that airlines prefer hubs where competition cannot grow due to some type of capacity restrictions (ORD, PHL, EWR, etc.). This keeps competition out, fares high, and hubs profitable. What is good for the airline is not necessarily good for the consumer, but this is a tough industry that struggles to make money on a consistent basis.
 
milesrich
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RE: US Files Objections To PHL Expansion

Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:58 pm

Quoting simairlinenet (Reply 1):
This is just posturing. Delta made similar threats 1-2 years ago to move a substantial portion of traffic from Atlanta to Memphis. Did they? No. Would they have? Highly unlikely.

I bet PIT would make one heck of a bid to get them back. They had a hub at BWI at one time too, but WN is there now.

Furthermore, they could move some of the flights to DCA even though its slot restricted, they just picked up a number of those slots.

[Edited 2012-02-23 07:00:08]

[Edited 2012-02-23 07:01:39]
 
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chrisnh
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RE: US Files Objections To PHL Expansion

Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:08 pm

Delta drew down DFW, AA drew down BNA...so the precedent is there for an airline to 'vaporize' a hub. Not to say US would do the same to PHL, but it's just a matter of how tight the screws are put to them by the Airport Authority.
 
bjorn14
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RE: US Files Objections To PHL Expansion

Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:47 pm

Posturing. Nothing more, nothing less. Close a top 5 market like PHL where you have a virtual fortress (ask WN) and be left with two 20-something market hubs. Mr. Parker must have fallen and hit his head unless he plans to buy AA.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
EricR
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RE: US Files Objections To PHL Expansion

Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:09 pm

Well here is an interesting side note from the article......

"US Airways' hub in Charlotte, N.C., is its largest, with 595 daily flights. But Philadelphia, an international hub with 429 daily flights, generates more revenue."

CLT has ~160 more flights, but generates less revenue than PHL. Substance over size.
 
Flaps
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RE: US Files Objections To PHL Expansion

Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:27 pm

I'm not so sure that it's all posturing. If expansion increases costs to the point where the hub isn't profitable they don't have much choice. There is also truth to the thought that they are protecting their niche. Who wouldn't? If anyone thinks this is a bluff look no farther than PIT.
US has some serious issues with their east coast hubs in the decade ahead. Both PHL and CLT are dreadful places to connect. While CLT is very nice and they have done a great job with what they have to work with, it was never built for the volumes it handles. The corridors are tight, the gate areas are tiny and the walking is extensive. The gate areas are so small that passengers actually clog the corridors even further slowing the flow of passengers attempting connections. Some travelers (myself included) avoid these hubs for those very reasons. At some point, major expansion will be required at both of these facilities. At that point the cost advantage US enjoys will evaporate.
PHL is particularly troublesome due to it's location underneath some of the most crowded airspace in the country. In addition to the increased fees related to expansion, the increased cost of airspace related delays from even more traffic can do nothing but push US's hub costs even higher still.
 
usairways85
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RE: US Files Objections To PHL Expansion

Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:54 pm

Is the possibility of the FAA redesigning the airspace even on the table? Or is their essentially no airspace to redesign with WAS and NYC receiving preferrential treatment and PHL will always suffer? Why don't the city and US join together to put some pressure on the FAA.

You have to understand US' side of the argument. Yes, the airport should really have another runway but if 10 years from now PHL still faces the same airspace type of delays what good is the runway. I forget, does the runway also alleviate some of the taxi way issues? I know the proposed new B/C terminal would eliminate a number of the alley delays.
 
mainMAN
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RE: US Files Objections To PHL Expansion

Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:10 pm

Quoting Flaps (Reply 7):
Both PHL and CLT are dreadful places to connect.

PHL obviously wasn't designed as a hub, but few are in the US and it fares well when compared to other 'non-hub' hubs (EWR in particular). I've been through PHL many times, never had any severe delays (luck?) and find the security staff courteous and friendly. Not a problem.

The US MAN - PHL service apparently caters for quite a healthy level of O&D business travel and cargo (between the UK and PA, VA, DC and DE), but for the rest of us, it would make no difference if we were to connect in PIT or CLT.
 
bjorn14
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RE: US Files Objections To PHL Expansion

Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:21 pm

Quoting Flaps (Reply 7):
If anyone thinks this is a bluff look no farther than PIT.

Different time. Different story. They had three and a half hubs (PHL, PIT, BWI and DCA) all very close to each other. They had to do something and PIT and BWI were low on the totem pole.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
D L X
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RE: US Files Objections To PHL Expansion

Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:31 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 10):
Different time. Different story. They had three and a half hubs (PHL, PIT, BWI and DCA) all very close to each other.

Not that different.

People need to remember that PIT and PHL are as far apart as ATL and CVG. As for DCA and BWI, DCA has always been just a focus city, and BWI's hub had long been drawn down by then.

Another example: US no longer has a hub at LAS.


With that said, I cannot foresee a situation where US is not hubbed at PHL. I think even with an American Airlines buyout (which I see as likely), PHL will still be a hub for the combined airline.
 
apodino
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RE: US Files Objections To PHL Expansion

Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:39 pm

There are two things in play with USAirways thinking here.

1. If PHL builds a new runway, USAirways does not want to pay for it, and neither do the other airlines. I read one article where it wasn't just US objecting, but most of the other majors serving PHL as well.

2. US apparently feels its more profitable to operate a hub with constant delays if it keeps competition out as opposed to a hub that has fewer delays but more competition.

There was an interesting letter to the editor of the Philly Tribune yesterday from the PHL CEO. He criticized USAirways for their stand and hinted that USAirways set up their own study to support them, and not PHL as a whole. He also hinted that he would not pander to US just because they are the biggest carrier in PHL, as in his opinion PHL is much more important as a whole than just the hub airline. I say, good for him.
 
HPRamper
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RE: US Files Objections To PHL Expansion

Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:13 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 12):
There was an interesting letter to the editor of the Philly Tribune yesterday from the PHL CEO. He criticized USAirways for their stand and hinted that USAirways set up their own study to support them, and not PHL as a whole. He also hinted that he would not pander to US just because they are the biggest carrier in PHL, as in his opinion PHL is much more important as a whole than just the hub airline. I say, good for him.

Good luck to him. I bet he would change his tune if PHL shared the same fate as PIT. PHL benefits greatly from having an airline hub there...even if US left and the capacity were backfilled by other airlines, the airport would still lose out on the profits generated by a hub schedule.

Ultimately I do not see US leaving PHL - as of now, they have no other option in the Northeast. Although it would be cool to see them flow some connections over PIT again.
 
usairways85
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RE: US Files Objections To PHL Expansion

Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:18 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 12):
2. US apparently feels its more profitable to operate a hub with constant delays if it keeps competition out as opposed to a hub that has fewer delays but more competition.

Well kinda of. I think they are trying to argue that just because you build a runway does not mean delays will decline drastically, mostly due to the airspace issues over much of the NE.

Whether they really buy into that or whether they really want to keep PHL as a delay prone airport so as to keep competition at a minimum is anyone's guess.
 
PHLBOS
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RE: US Files Objections To PHL Expansion

Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:04 pm

Quoting simairlinenet (Reply 1):
Delta made similar threats 1-2 years ago to move a substantial portion of traffic from Atlanta to Memphis.

Apples and oranges comparison; MEM was a much smaller hub for NW than ATL is for DL. When the DL/NW merger news first broke out; I, for one, knew that MEM's days as a hub were numbered.

Quoting milesrich (Reply 3):
I bet PIT would make one heck of a bid to get them back.

The PIT hub was sacrificed due to US being in Chapter 11 (for the 2nd time) at the time AND the fact that they knew darn well that if it merged with ANY carrier at the time; its PIT hub would eventually be gone.

Unlike PIT, PHL has a much more O&D demand. IIRC, in its days as a US hub; the majority of passengers on those PIT flights were connecting.

Quoting D L X (Reply 11):
People need to remember that PIT and PHL are as far apart as ATL and CVG.

You must be joking. A quick glance at a U.S. map shows the distance between ATL & CVG being noticably larger than the distance between PHL & PIT. Were you actually referring to ATL & MEM as opposed to CVG?

Quoting milesrich (Reply 3):
They had a hub at BWI at one time too, but WN is there now.

The BWI hub was pulled down years ago. Its pulldown centainly helped WN expand its presence there. And again, that hub being fairly close to its PHL hub was starting to take its toll on US' overall operations back then... especially during the recession of the early 90s.

Anyway, I've stated this before and I was state it again. Just because an airport serves a major metropolitan city doesn't mean that having an airline hub there is an automatic birth-right. IF the demand for airline service exists at a given airport; then carriers (note the plural) will come in and fly the routes.

Should US drop its PHL hub due to this (the CEP fees), a merger w/another legacy carrier (no down to three) or liquidation (US dodged that bullet w/the HP merger back in 2005); trust me, other carriers will come in to pick up the routes that are indeed in demand.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
southwest737500
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RE: US Files Objections To PHL Expansion

Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:41 pm

Bring it all to Charlotte, it's a gold mine down here
Next flight: TUL-ATL-CLT CRJ900 and MD88
 
HPRamper
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RE: US Files Objections To PHL Expansion

Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:45 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 15):
You must be joking. A quick glance at a U.S. map shows the distance between ATL & CVG being noticably larger than the distance between PHL & PIT. Were you actually referring to ATL & MEM as opposed to CVG?

According to Great Circle Mapper:

ATL-CVG 373 mi
ATL-MEM 332 mi
PHL-PIT 268 mi
 
D L X
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RE: US Files Objections To PHL Expansion

Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:48 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 15):
Quoting D L X (Reply 11):
People need to remember that PIT and PHL are as far apart as ATL and CVG.

You must be joking. A quick glance at a U.S. map shows the distance between ATL & CVG being noticably larger than the distance between PHL & PIT.

Don't just look at the map, because the map will appear distorted. The distances are surprisingly comparable: 373 miles vs. 268. 6 hour drive Philly to PIT, 7 hour drive Atlanta to Cincy.
 
PHLBOS
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RE: US Files Objections To PHL Expansion

Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:23 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 18):
Don't just look at the map, because the map will appear distorted.

Don't need to now, since HPRamper posted the distances (Thx BTW HPRamper). 
The only reason why I did not do more in-depth search earlier was because I had work to do.

Quoting D L X (Reply 18):
The distances are surprisingly comparable: 373 miles vs. 268. 6 hour drive Philly to PIT, 7 hour drive Atlanta to Cincy.

Using your time estimates and the above-distances, I get an average speed of roughly 45 mph for PHL-PIT (not that any one would necessarily drive from airport to airport) vs. ATL-CVG average of 53 mph.

Most people I've spoken with that have driven between Phily and PIT; the average travel time (barring major traffic jams) is closer to 5 hours not 6.

Besides, DL has already started to gut its CVG hub (due to its relatively close proximity to the larger DTW hub) so its ultimate fate may very well be similar to what PIT presently is.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
usairways85
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RE: US Files Objections To PHL Expansion

Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:53 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 18):

Don't just look at the map, because the map will appear distorted. The distances are surprisingly comparable: 373 miles vs. 268. 6 hour drive Philly to PIT, 7 hour drive Atlanta to Cincy.
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 19):
Using your time estimates and the above-distances, I get an average speed of roughly 45 mph for PHL-PIT (not that any one would necessarily drive from airport to airport) vs. ATL-CVG average of 53 mph

Ok, I don't know why we are really getting into distances between cities but lets take a step back here. If you want to purely compare distances than the great circle is fine, however it is not applicable for driving. Goggle maps tells me it is 305 miles (5 1/2 hours) from PHL-PIT if you were to drive, which is much greater than the great circle distance.

Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 16):
Bring it all to Charlotte, it's a gold mine down here

Can CLT handle much more capacity? Also it probably can't handle (from a demand perspective) many more TA flts than it already has, which is one of the things that makes PHL so lucrative.
 
bennett123
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RE: US Files Objections To PHL Expansion

Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:05 am

Ultimately what suits PHL may not suit US, and vice versa.

Where would US move that capacity to?.
 
jreuschl
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RE: US Files Objections To PHL Expansion

Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:06 am

Would US pull back any international flights and would any of them be taken over (or expanded) by international carriers?
 
don0245
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RE: US Files Objections To PHL Expansion

Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:09 am

PHL one of the worst US airports!! Delays, lack of runways, very poor connecting airport. Just Sayin!!
 
southwest737500
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RE: US Files Objections To PHL Expansion

Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:09 am

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 20):

Well we're getting 2 additonal wide body gates by S12 and by 2015 a new terminal should be built which give US ample amount of gates. Obviously they wouldn't bring everything at once. But long term we could handle it
Next flight: TUL-ATL-CLT CRJ900 and MD88
 
usairways85
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RE: US Files Objections To PHL Expansion

Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:12 am

Quoting jreuschl (Reply 22):
Would US pull back any international flights and would any of them be taken over (or expanded) by international carriers?

While that is still something yet to be determine and something that *may* happen well in the future PHL would likely up like BOS where you have more International carriers serving the big markets (LHR, CDG, MAD, FRA, FCO) with higher frequency but ultimately fewer destinations.
 
PHLBOS
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RE: US Files Objections To PHL Expansion

Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:20 am

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 20):
I don't know why we are really getting into distances between cities

The distances between cities (airports more specifically) was brought into the picture with regards to how close a hub of a LARGE airline can be to a sister hub without becoming completely redundant. DLX, erroneously IMHO, stated that ATL is to CVG was similar to what PHL is to PIT when in reality DL's MEM hub is closer to their larger ATL hub than CVG.

CVG's hub redundancy issue is more with respect to the DTW hub. MEM's hub redundancy is more with respect to ATL.

Back to US:

In the case of US/pre-HP merger; the relatively close distance of its PHL & PIT hubs weren't much of an issue for them because it was still a relatively small carrier when compared to its larger legacy competitors. But when one adds another carrier and their hubs into the mix, then all bets are off for the smaller nearby hub. Similar happened w/BWI and DAY a few years after US & PI merged; both PI hubs were redundant with US' PHL & then-PIT hubs.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
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flylku
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RE: US Files Objections To PHL Expansion

Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:03 am

Quoting EricR (Reply 6):
CLT has ~160 more flights, but generates less revenue than PHL. Substance over size.

Doesn't PHL get a larger share their largest aircraft? I am curious how PHL matches CLT on number of seats per day. It is still smaller, I'm sure, but not by much and of course PHL gets more revenue per seat because of the international component.

Oh, and for those who say it is posturing, it is ... until it isn't. This country is littered with former hubs.
...are we there yet?
 
usairways85
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RE: US Files Objections To PHL Expansion

Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:20 am

Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 24):
Well we're getting 2 additonal wide body gates by S12 and by 2015 a new terminal should be built which give US ample amount of gates. Obviously they wouldn't bring everything at once. But long term we could handle it

Gates are only one piece of the puzzle, however if I understand correctly CLT is just about maxed out on gates. I've heard CLT has started to face some delays as US pours on more flts. Some of the taxiways and allyways in CLT look like they can result in the same delays PHL faces when you stack up flts.

Quoting flylku (Reply 27):
Doesn't PHL get a larger share their largest aircraft? I am curious how PHL matches CLT on number of seats per day. It is still smaller, I'm sure, but not by much and of course PHL gets more revenue per seat because of the international component.

Not really. Less than half of the PHL operation is on Mainline. Though I believe the 170/175's are counted under express and they are obviously the top of the Express seating capacity
 
southwest737500
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RE: US Files Objections To PHL Expansion

Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:25 am

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 28):

Your wright in that. But CLT is no where near PHL in terms of delays. Yes of course when that 6:00 push comes things get a little congested but it happens to a lot of airports.
Next flight: TUL-ATL-CLT CRJ900 and MD88
 
USAirALB
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RE: US Files Objections To PHL Expansion

Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:53 am

PHL best be considering this project very, very seriously.

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 28):
Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 24):
Well we're getting 2 additonal wide body gates by S12 and by 2015 a new terminal should be built which give US ample amount of gates. Obviously they wouldn't bring everything at once. But long term we could handle it

Gates are only one piece of the puzzle, however if I understand correctly CLT is just about maxed out on gates. I've heard CLT has started to face some delays as US pours on more flts. Some of the taxiways and allyways in CLT look like they can result in the same delays PHL faces when you stack up flts.

But when CLT wants to start building Terminal 2 (Concourse F), will US object to that? I agree that CLT is maxed out on gates. I'm sure their are carriers (probably even INTL) that would like to start service to CLT, but there isn't enough room. I think a gate could be opened up by moving B6 over to A, freeing up a gate in D, however I have no idea if the gate B6 uses is INTL compatible, I'm assuming it is.

CLT appears to be going to town on Concourse E. I saw signs pointing to gate E50 while I was there, and I believe they are only at gate E38 or so, so they have a long way to go.

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 28):
Not really. Less than half of the PHL operation is on Mainline. Though I believe the 170/175's are counted under express and they are obviously the top of the Express seating capacity

Correct.
E135/E140/E145/E70/E75/E90/CR2/CR7/CR9/717/732/733/734/735/73G/738/739/752/753/762/772/77W/319/320/321/333/343
 
bjorn14
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RE: US Files Objections To PHL Expansion

Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:38 pm

Quoting flylku (Reply 27):
Oh, and for those who say it is posturing, it is ... until it isn't. This country is littered with former hubs.

US would be cutting off their nose despite their face. The airspace situation might change when the NextGen ATC comes online in about 2022. US could always move to ILG.   
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
PHLBOS
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RE: US Files Objections To PHL Expansion

Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:11 pm

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 28):
Less than half of the PHL operation is on Mainline. Though I believe the 170/175's are counted under express and they are obviously the top of the Express seating capacity

   All the E-170/175s are flown by Republic under the US Express banner. In terms of number of flights (as opposed to seats); I'm guessing that ZW has the highest number of Express flights. Many PHL spotters half jokingly stated that Air Wisconsin should change its name to Air Pennsylvania given the amount of flights they fly here.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
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flylku
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RE: US Files Objections To PHL Expansion

Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:51 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 31):

US would be cutting off their nose despite their face. The airspace situation might change when the NextGen ATC comes online in about 2022. US could always move to ILG.

I would be shocked if it happened. But, reducing dependence on PHL by shifting to other hubs is a possibility. Also, a merger of some sort would influence PHL's future. Does anyone remember the Dayton hub!?
...are we there yet?
 
D L X
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RE: US Files Objections To PHL Expansion

Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:15 pm

Quoting flylku (Reply 33):
Also, a merger of some sort would influence PHL's future.

Come on. We all know Doug Parker would never AAllow his AAirline to merge with AAnother.

 
 
HPRamper
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RE: US Files Objections To PHL Expansion

Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:16 pm

Quoting flylku (Reply 33):
I would be shocked if it happened. But, reducing dependence on PHL by shifting to other hubs is a possibility. Also, a merger of some sort would influence PHL's future. Does anyone remember the Dayton hub!?

It's just posturing by US. It would be akin to PMCO threatening to pull out of EWR. Not really a viable option.

And with all respect to Dayton, it was never the O&D gold mine that PHL has proved to be for US. Even post-merger with someone, PHL would not turn into another DAY, even if reductions are made.
 
mah584jr
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RE: US Files Objections To PHL Expansion

Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:14 am

If US left, I think a carrier like B6 would swoop in in a second. Where is US going to go that would provide a better alternative? US needs PHL a lot more than PHL needs US, hence the reason they're complaining.
 
D L X
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RE: US Files Objections To PHL Expansion

Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:28 am

Quoting mah584jr (Reply 36):
US needs PHL a lot more than PHL needs US,

Now, THAT would be posturing.
 
jporterfi
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RE: US Files Objections To PHL Expansion

Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:37 am

It may be just posturing, but I wonder if the proximity of another Star Alliance member, UA, over at EWR is causing US to rethink its scheduling to benefit both the alliance as whole (less intra-alliance competition) as well as US because it could use those aircraft at CLT and/or PHX.
 
usairways85
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RE: US Files Objections To PHL Expansion

Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:01 am

Quoting jporterfi (Reply 38):
It may be just posturing, but I wonder if the proximity of another Star Alliance member, UA, over at EWR is causing US to rethink its scheduling to benefit both the alliance as whole (less intra-alliance competition) as well as US because it could use those aircraft at CLT and/or PHX.

While US is a member of Star it is not an integral part and the Alliance certainly does not try to look out for US (i.e. No US in the ATI agreement). Also note that yes US is in alliance with CO and UA but they still have to compete with them and any type of "cooperating" presents antitrust issues. With that said, US would be foolish to really have anyone but themselves in mind when scheduling. And US really needs PHL. Without PHL US loses a pretty large International presence that CLT simply cannot replicate.

[Edited 2012-02-25 20:07:51]
 
toltommy
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RE: US Files Objections To PHL Expansion

Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:24 am

Quoting mah584jr (Reply 36):
US needs PHL a lot more than PHL needs US, hence the reason they're complaining.

Not necessarily. US doesn't need to connect traffic over PHL. Philly generates more revenue than CLT does. I'm willing to bet that's because of the O&D traffic at PHL, not because of lower yielding connecting traffic. So what is stopping US from reducing PHL to a focus city? They could go to PIT, with dozens of open gates, and negotiate a deal that brings traffic back thru PIT. Unless PIT hasn't paid debt down to a level that makes it feasible, of course....

But there may be alternatives to keeping everything at PHL....
 
HPRamper
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RE: US Files Objections To PHL Expansion

Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:00 am

Quoting toltommy (Reply 40):
Not necessarily. US doesn't need to connect traffic over PHL. Philly generates more revenue than CLT does. I'm willing to bet that's because of the O&D traffic at PHL, not because of lower yielding connecting traffic. So what is stopping US from reducing PHL to a focus city? They could go to PIT, with dozens of open gates, and negotiate a deal that brings traffic back thru PIT. Unless PIT hasn't paid debt down to a level that makes it feasible, of course....

The connecting traffic is what feeds the international flights, and without the international, PHL isn't nearly as profitable. If US cut PHL to an O&D based operation, it would end up as an almost strictly domestic focus with maybe one or two widebody flights transatlantic, and only to major European hubs.
 
mah584jr
Posts: 422
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RE: US Files Objections To PHL Expansion

Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:19 am

Quoting toltommy (Reply 40):
But there may be alternatives to keeping everything at PHL....

True, US could certainly go elsewhere. But if revenue is the name of the game then I have a hard time believing that another location will equal what PHL currently offers them.

In all honestly, I don't see any major expansion happening at PHL in the near future anyway. High oil prices will continue to hinder large expansions in the US. It is affecting the consumer and the airlines alike.

Do you think PHL is fine at it's current size?

Quoting D L X (Reply 37):
Now, THAT would be posturing.

So what do you believe? Do you think US needs PHL more, or that PHL needs US more?
 
aeroblogger
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RE: US Files Objections To PHL Expansion

Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:26 am

Quoting mah584jr (Reply 42):

So what do you believe? Do you think US needs PHL more, or that PHL needs US more?

No doubt, PHL needs US more. If US decided to move its hub operation to PIT or BOS and downgrade PHL to a focus city, PHL would hurt. Badly.
Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
 
RyanairGuru
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RE: US Files Objections To PHL Expansion

Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:22 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 34):
Come on. We all know Doug Parker would never AAllow his AAirline to merge with AAnother.

  

Quoting mah584jr (Reply 42):
True, US could certainly go elsewhere

Hmm I was trying to think where they could go: somewhere with international facilities, no hub and space to roam.

RDU: no chance

BNA: probably too close to CLT. Two hubs in the SE and no other East Coast international presence would mean DL would walk all over them

Anywhere in Florida: too far south for Europe connections, and they don't have AA's LatAm presence (yet  )

BOS: *maybe* - with some juggling - especially taking over CO/empty gate space in A - they could expand there. International in E, mainline in B, and express in A would not be that different to the current PHL set up.

BWI: Why pick an unnecessary fight with WN?

CVG: DL are still there, and if US were to expand in that market they would dump their dehubbing strategy in about 30 seconds

So, yes: US needs PHL
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: US Files Objections To PHL Expansion

Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:23 am

I think the airport should listen to its largest and most important tenant in these cases where one carrier has a dominance

If its an airport like RDU, IND or those types with no hub or dominating carrier i can see the airport caring less what one tenant thinks. In SLC Delta likes the plan of a renovation and wants to do it so it makes sense to go ahead and spend the money for an example of when it just makes sense. In PHL US really sounds like they dont want to do this so why make it harder on your largest carrier and put pressure on their hub? PHL needs US at least if they want a large international flight offering like they have now
 
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flylku
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RE: US Files Objections To PHL Expansion

Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:58 pm

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 35):
And with all respect to Dayton, it was never the O&D gold mine that PHL has proved to be for US. Even post-merger with someone, PHL would not turn into another DAY, even if reductions are made.

Agreed. I never understood Dayton as a hub anyway. But I'll most A.netters of a certain age or younger don't even know at one time it was a small hub.
...are we there yet?
 
D L X
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RE: US Files Objections To PHL Expansion

Sun Feb 26, 2012 5:09 pm

Quoting mah584jr (Reply 42):
Do you think US needs PHL more, or that PHL needs US more?

Without a doubt, PHL needs US more. It's not close.

However, this "who needs who more" when it is clear that they both benefit from each other is a poor way to negotiate.
 
sharktail
Posts: 124
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RE: US Files Objections To PHL Expansion

Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:44 pm

I've been reading all the comments and I think nobody is looking at it from a finance/business perspective. It really all comes down to cost.

If the additional cost per passenger per flight goes up by say $10-$20, then US either has to raise fares (unlikely to happen as customers can connect through other hubs) or reduce fares to compensate, which will make some of those 470+ flights no longer profitable.

So they may go to 300-350 flights because of that. Or even 150-200. As to what to do with the airplanes: pretty easy to resolve that:

1) You get rid of some of them (only the 15 E-190's re not covered under scope right now, but that is a chunk of flying)
2) You buy/merge with another carrier and you move the planes there as it resolves scope issues. (Frontier and B6 have been mentioned aside from AA).
3) If you have to fly the planes somewhere, find the place you minimize losses. But you might be able to move bigger planes to CLT and PHX and cut express flying.

As for PHL, no other carrier will replace the flying cause the other carriers will have the same high costs that make it not competitive. It might reduce congestion though. So if that is what you are really worried about, you could just levy the tax and not build anything. The tax may eliminate the need for the additional runway just by charging it...
 
usairways85
Posts: 3604
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2001 11:59 am

RE: US Files Objections To PHL Expansion

Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:47 pm

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 43):
No doubt, PHL needs US more. If US decided to move its hub operation to PIT or BOS and downgrade PHL to a focus city, PHL would hurt. Badly.

US isn't moving anywhere, there is no where to move. BOS...yea you have a better shot at winning the megamillion lottery. PIT...sure if you want to replace a well balanced O&D and Connecting hub in PHL with a predominantly connecting hub in PIT.

Quoting D L X (Reply 47):
Without a doubt, PHL needs US more. It's not close.

However, this "who needs who more" when it is clear that they both benefit from each other is a poor way to negotiate.

It's not close? If US downsizes PHL to a focus city, US mise well cancel their remaining widebody orders and get rid of the 762's bc they will only need a handful of widebodies for what CLT can handle and what PHX may be able to handle.

However, I will agree that they really equally need each other. Some cooperation between the two is needed rather than the current standoff that exists.


Quoting mah584jr (Reply 42):
In all honestly, I don't see any major expansion happening at PHL in the near future anyway. High oil prices will continue to hinder large expansions in the US. It is affecting the consumer and the airlines alike.

Runway's and terminal's aren't built overnight...we are talking long term here (~10 years). It is anyone's guess what air traffice be like but all indications are that it will increase.

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