757ops
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Why Don't DL Fly LHR To SLC?

Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:16 pm

Hi

As a regular DL traveller from LHR I am still surprised that they don't start a LHR to SLC service on the 764

Wouldn't SLC have great connection opportunities to West Coast/LAS/PHX etc....

What are your thoughts?
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Why Don't DL Fly LHR To SLC?

Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:31 pm

LHR is on SLC's wish list, but keep in mind that DL's SLC-CDG service, which has hub connectivity on both ends is less-than-daily during the weather.

I'm sure DL has looked at serving the market, but ultimately feels that its limited LHR slots are of better use to their hubs and larger O&D markets in the eastern part of the country.

Quoting 757ops (Thread starter):
Wouldn't SLC have great connection opportunities to West Coast/LAS/PHX etc....

Yes, but so does MSP, DTW, ATL, and JFK. There are ample connecting opportunities from all but the smallest markets (that are only connected to SLC, but their contribution to LHR is minimal) in the west coast / mountain west over other DL hubs.
 
planesailing
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RE: Why Don't DL Fly LHR To SLC?

Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:44 pm

Technically it is under the composite DL6 from LHR thru to SLC.
 
EricR
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RE: Why Don't DL Fly LHR To SLC?

Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:10 pm

Quoting 757ops (Thread starter):
Wouldn't SLC have great connection opportunities to West Coast/LAS/PHX etc....

All of the main metropolitan areas in the Western U.S. already have N/S to LHR via BA (LAS, PHX, SAN, LAX, SFO, SEA, DEN) or a domestic U.S. based carrier.

Therefore, DL would need to heavily rely on SLC's O&D (which is small) or traffic from other smaller Western U.S. cities. In addition, I think this would cannibalize, to some extent, traffic on the SLC-CDG route.
 
rocbufden
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RE: Why Don't DL Fly LHR To SLC?

Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:14 pm

Also, there are not a lot of Sky Team connections to be made in LHR either as compared to CDG with AF.
 
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mayor
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RE: Why Don't DL Fly LHR To SLC?

Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:55 pm

Back before DL flew into LHR, we were in a competition for a SLC-London route. There were to be two routes awarded, from two gateways. An airline could only be awarded one route......AA submitted RDU-London and BNA-London, hoping to get one of them (or so we thought). We thought we had the SLC route, in the bag. That's when the politicians in Nashville and Tennessee stepped in and made the same application. The two routes awarded were RDU-London to AA and BNA-London to this group, who promptly had AA "operate" the route for them, avoiding the 1 airline rule.

We were so sure we had it, that we were already formulating plans in cargo as to how we were going to handle it.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
jkudall
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RE: Why Don't DL Fly LHR To SLC?

Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:01 pm

Quoting EricR (Reply 3):
Therefore, DL would need to heavily rely on SLC's O&D (which is small) or traffic from other smaller Western U.S. cities. In addition, I think this would cannibalize, to some extent, traffic on the SLC-CDG route.

SLC airport has higher O&D totals than CLT,RDU,IAD,MIA which all have n/s flights to London. Now in the case of IAD and MIA, a lot of their O&D spreads among other nearby airports so they don't really count.

London is SLC's highest overseas O&D destination. With connecting possibilities from places all out west, they could easily operate this route.

I will point out that SLC-CDG and CDG-SLC legs consistently have higher load factors than most or all of Delta's routes to or from CDG.

SLC pushed DL to start London service back in the 1990's, an appliation was filed with the DOT but they awarded it to AA to start service from BNA which didn't last long.

I think SLC-London is a high possibility. Granted SLC-CDG benefits from downline connections at both CDG and SLC, but there is significantly more SLC travelers flying to London than CDG and points beyond.

I think we'll see the route someday. The city will probably subsidize it at first like they did with CDG (DL has since taken on all financial liability on the route and stayed with the route because it has been very successful.)
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: Why Don't DL Fly LHR To SLC?

Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:46 pm

Quoting jkudall (Reply 6):

I will point out that SLC-CDG and CDG-SLC legs consistently have higher load factors than most or all of Delta's routes to or from CDG.

I have gotten that impression from other postings too, that the route does very very well.

I recall when DL applied for SLC-LGW right around the same time that AA was going to start SJC-LGW just before 9/11. I don't recall what happened to that. I think it was later than the time AA was awarded BNA-LGW.

Which will happen first: SLC-LHR or SLC-AMS?

Is SLC-NRT done for good?
 
Cipango
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RE: Why Don't DL Fly LHR To SLC?

Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:51 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 7):
Which will happen first: SLC-LHR or SLC-AMS?

AMS will probably happen first. LHR is slot restricted lets not forget and SLC wouldn't have the highest yields to justify bidding gold dust for a slot.
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IrishAyes
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RE: Why Don't DL Fly LHR To SLC?

Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:57 pm

Quoting jkudall (Reply 6):
SLC airport has higher O&D totals than CLT,RDU,IAD,MIA which all have n/s flights to London. Now in the case of IAD and MIA, a lot of their O&D spreads among other nearby airports so they don't really count.

Right, but the traffic going into all of these cities is arguably much higher-yielding than SLC. In Charlotte, you have strong banking and finance ties, which is actually why US has successfully grown CLT as a TATL gateway over the years.

RDU, although only served with a single daily flight on AA to LHR, has a corporate contract thanks to the Research Triangle in N.C.

IAD is the nation's Capital, and Miami attracts a lot of premium traffic.

Quoting jkudall (Reply 6):
I will point out that SLC-CDG and CDG-SLC legs consistently have higher load factors than most or all of Delta's routes to or from CDG.

Even if the LF's into SLC, it doesn't mean much in terms of how high-yielding it is.

Delta seemed to have mixed results on their LHR-BOS/MIA experimentation, so for some reason I don't see them giving SLC a try.
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brilondon
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RE: Why Don't DL Fly LHR To SLC?

Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:11 pm

All of the above arguments are valid. What you must remember is that DL is really set for Europe using AMS and CDG as connector hubs. Going to LHR with its slot restrictions, just doesn't make sense from a network point of view. They don't have to connections with other Skyteam members except to their respective hubs and DL really doesn't need another US city pair to LHR. Also when you talk about the slots, were they not from AF and not new slots awarded to DL?
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IrishAyes
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RE: Why Don't DL Fly LHR To SLC?

Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:25 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 10):
Also when you talk about the slots, were they not from AF and not new slots awarded to DL?

Or AZ.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 7):
Is SLC-NRT done for good?

Yes.
confidence is silent. insecurities are loud.
 
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mayor
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RE: Why Don't DL Fly LHR To SLC?

Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:25 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 7):

I recall when DL applied for SLC-LGW right around the same time that AA was going to start SJC-LGW just before 9/11. I don't recall what happened to that. I think it was later than the time AA was awarded BNA-LGW.

As I stated before, SLC-LGW was applied for at the same time as RDU-London and BNA-London, in the '90s. AA was awarded the RDU route and the business/political group in BNA was awarded the London route, which was given to AA to operate, thereby circumventing the rules so AA could have both routes.
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EricR
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RE: Why Don't DL Fly LHR To SLC?

Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:32 pm

Quoting jkudall (Reply 6):
SLC airport has higher O&D totals than CLT,RDU,IAD,MIA


IAD & MIA cover metro areas that have multiple airports so, as you mentioned, the O&D numbers are diluted.

However, we all know CLT is all about connecting service and RDU has a corporate contract supporting the AA RDU-LHR flight. and this is the only European N/S route from RDU. Also, both CLT & RDU have shorter stage lengths than SLC which will help on profitability, especially as oil prices continue to increase.

Quoting jkudall (Reply 6):
London is SLC's highest overseas O&D destination. With connecting possibilities from places all out west, they could easily operate this route.


I don't doubt this, but just because London is the highest overseas O&D destination does not mean that it can support a N/S flight profitably, especially considering SLC already has a N/S European flight.

I have no doubts that they can fill the plane, but I think they would have to offer lower fares to attract passengers due to the number of more convenient to LHR from other western U.S. cities. The competing CDG flight, the long stage length, lower fares, and high oil prices are substantial obstacles to overcome.

Quoting jkudall (Reply 6):
SLC pushed DL to start London service back in the 1990's, an application was filed with the DOT but they awarded it to AA to start service from BNA which didn't last long.


I believe this was before SLC had their CDG flight.
 
mikey72
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RE: Why Don't DL Fly LHR To SLC?

Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:35 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 7):
Which will happen first: SLC-LHR or SLC-AMS?

Is SLC strictly DL turf ? Do they have a large presence there ?

With the AA/BA joint venture and hopefully the BD slots coming IAG's way might we see LHR-SLC on BA metal ?

Don't know anything about SLC or its market to Europe so would be interested to find out.

[Edited 2012-02-23 09:36:01]
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rwsea
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RE: Why Don't DL Fly LHR To SLC?

Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:50 pm

Quoting 757ops (Thread starter):
Wouldn't SLC have great connection opportunities to West Coast/LAS/PHX etc....

As previously noted, all of the major western markets already have nonstop service to LHR, or they can just as easily connect to LHR through AMS/MSP/ATL/JFK. Think of some of the bigger markets in the west without nonstop service - PDX, SJC, ABQ - all of these markets can connect elsewhere just as easily as SLC. SLC itself has an easy one-stop option through MSP/DTW.

Also with the heavy slot restrictions at LHR, I am sure DL would rather build frequency at JFK/ATL and perhaps DTW/MSP before adding flights to additional hubs.

I agree with others that AMS is probably more likely than LHR.
 
BD338
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RE: Why Don't DL Fly LHR To SLC?

Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:16 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 14):
Is SLC strictly DL turf ? Do they have a large presence there ?

In one from or another (mainline or regional) DL has around 75% of the market share in SLC. Around 15M or so passengers a year (O&D and connecting)

Personally, I hope for SLC-AMS before SLC-LHR. Better connections into Europe but this may bleed off competing traffic into CDG which DL probably wouldn't want to do. I would much rather connect in AMS than CDG.
 
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redzeppelin
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RE: Why Don't DL Fly LHR To SLC?

Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:05 pm

I flew the CDG-SLC segment last summer, and can attest that it was completely full for that one particular day. I would estimate that the passengers were about 60% Americans and 40% Europeans. I spoke to a few of the Americans who were returning to their homes in places like Fresno, Sacramento and Tuscon. I spoke to or overheard Europeans who were going to places like Las Vegas, Yellowstone, or various parts of California. There were also plenty of SLC O/D passengers. An SLC airport employee indicated that this was a fairly typical scenario. The fact that there were so many Europeans on board suggests to me that the success of the flight does depend on capturing AF/SkyTeam customers, which may or may not mean anything for a potential London route. Of course, my experience in booking that flight and researching other flights to onward destinations in Europe is that Delta is able to charge a premium for it. From my home base in BZN, it always seems to cost quite a bit more than equivalent itineraries that connect through MSP.
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: Why Don't DL Fly LHR To SLC?

Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:51 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 14):
Is SLC strictly DL turf ? Do they have a large presence there ?

It is a pretty sizable hub, and I'd definitely consider it a success story given that it's held its ground during the merger and also hasn't lost a lot of market share to the LCCs that have come through. Definitely smart of Delta to pour their investments into keeping the SLC hub over DFW when making that difficult decision back in 2004.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 14):
With the AA/BA joint venture and hopefully the BD slots coming IAG's way might we see LHR-SLC on BA metal ?

I don't see it. There is lower-hanging fruit for AA/BA out there right now, and especially with aircraft utilization capabilities, they can go into markets further east (such as BDL, DTW, PIT, CVG, etc) using a smaller fleet that fits within range.
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gilesdavies
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RE: Why Don't DL Fly LHR To SLC?

Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:17 pm

Didn't United try to operate London to Denver a few years back and this got dropped after a while, due to low demand?

Im not all that familiar with this region of the US, but they look in a similar region. Would SLC face the same issues as Denver did?
 
727LOVER
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RE: Why Don't DL Fly LHR To SLC?

Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:52 pm

Did WA ever fly Salt Lake City-London???
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rutankrd
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RE: Why Don't DL Fly LHR To SLC?

Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:57 pm

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 20):
Did WA ever fly Salt Lake City-London???

No Western only served Denver - Gatwick with a DC10-30 and Honolulu- Anchorage- Gatwick with a DC10-10 !
 
rwsea
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RE: Why Don't DL Fly LHR To SLC?

Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:59 pm

Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 19):
Im not all that familiar with this region of the US, but they look in a similar region. Would SLC face the same issues as Denver did?

Probably even more issues - a smaller hub, smaller city, and less of a business base. Also, a bit less centrally-located.
 
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STT757
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RE: Why Don't DL Fly LHR To SLC?

Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:10 pm

Salt Lake City while gorgeous and growing is the 50th largest US metropolitan area, just behind Birmingham Alabama. There are many larger Metro areas in the US that probably have higher O&D potential for flights to London than Salt Lake City;

18 St.Louis
22 Pittsburgh
23 Portland OR
28 Cleveland
29 Kansas City
31 San Jose
32 Columbus
34 Indianapolis
37 Providence
38 Nashville
39 Milwaukee
45 Hartford
46 New Orleans
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doug_or
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RE: Why Don't DL Fly LHR To SLC?

Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:46 pm

Quoting redzeppelin (Reply 17):
I flew the CDG-SLC segment last summer, and can attest that it was completely full for that one particular day.

Most trans-atlantic flights in the summer are full most of the time. That really doesn't say much.
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Why Don't DL Fly LHR To SLC?

Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:16 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 23):
Salt Lake City while gorgeous and growing is the 50th largest US metropolitan area, just behind Birmingham Alabama. There are many larger Metro areas in the US that probably have higher O&D potential for flights to London than Salt Lake City;

18 St.Louis
22 Pittsburgh
23 Portland OR
28 Cleveland
29 Kansas City
31 San Jose
32 Columbus
34 Indianapolis
37 Providence
38 Nashville
39 Milwaukee
45 Hartford
46 New Orleans

You need to include the Ogden and Provo metro-areas in a combined Wasatch Front MSA before any of those cities are above SLC.
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Why Don't DL Fly LHR To SLC?

Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:30 am

VS has actaully approached SLC airport management about an LGW or LHR flight over the past decade, and if anyone else than DL tried SLC-London it would be VS. BA was thought to have at one point thought about it, but nothing ever became of it. LH however has approached SLC also about the possability of an SLC-FRA flight. If SLC-AMS ever came, it might be more realistic on KLM metal at a lessor frequency than DL SLC-CDG.

There is no doubt that European and more consistant SkyTeam Asian connections in and out of SLC wll be thte talk over the next few years, but I doubt much will materialize until they get much of the new terminal and concourse with better FIS desk capabilities built since the present facility has difficulty as it is when an NRT or CDG flight comes in. SLC is a significant western metro-area despite misgreads of U.S. Census data that make it look like BOI or some other samller isolated locality.
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BoeingGuy
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RE: Why Don't DL Fly LHR To SLC?

Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:36 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 23):
Salt Lake City while gorgeous and growing is the 50th largest US metropolitan area, just behind Birmingham Alabama. There are many larger Metro areas in the US that probably have higher O&D potential for flights to London than Salt Lake City;

18 St.Louis
22 Pittsburgh
23 Portland OR
28 Cleveland
29 Kansas City
31 San Jose
32 Columbus
34 Indianapolis
37 Providence
38 Nashville
39 Milwaukee
45 Hartford
46 New Orleans

STL, BNA, CLE, PIT and MSY has had London service. SJC almost got it to the point where the flight times were created. PDX is the only city on your list with current Europe service, now that BDL-AMS is gone again.

However SLC has much greater hub connecting opportunities than any city on that list, so I'm not sure if strictly looking at population is the determining factor in whether SLC can support LHR service. MCI and others would be all O&D on this end. SLC would not. It would attract SNA, LAS, PHX, TUS, SJC, OAK, SMF, RNO, GEG, BOI, PSC, all the Montana cities, etc to connect to LHR.

I'm not convinced that DL couldn't make SLC-LHR work, although I'd expect to instead see SLC-AMS first for reasons that others have stated like greater connecting opportunities on KL.
 
drerx7
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RE: Why Don't DL Fly LHR To SLC?

Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:40 am

[

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 26):

VS has actaully approached SLC airport management about an LGW or LHR flight over the past decade, and if anyone else than DL tried SLC-London it would be VS. BA was thought to have at one point thought about it, but nothing ever became of it. LH however has approached SLC also about the possability of an SLC-FRA flight. If SLC-AMS ever came, it might be more realistic on KLM metal at a lessor frequency than DL SLC-CDG.

While SLC is not a city that I would say I have had a blast in, its a decent town. I can't see any of the above routes coming to fruition except London via VS or DL - and even with that said I'd expect VS to go elsewhere first. If LH couldn't make PDX, PHX, or KL make DFW work...I don't know. Even with the KL feed at AMS, I think it would cannibalize CDG. I've seen stranger - a lot of folks said SQ down here at IAH would never work.
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flyguy89
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RE: Why Don't DL Fly LHR To SLC?

Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:19 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 27):
However SLC has much greater hub connecting opportunities than any city on that list, so I'm not sure if strictly looking at population is the determining factor in whether SLC can support LHR service. MCI and others would be all O&D on this end. SLC would not. It would attract SNA, LAS, PHX, TUS, SJC, OAK, SMF, RNO, GEG, BOI, PSC, all the Montana cities, etc to connect to LHR.

Yes, but as pointed out earlier, all of those cities are either well-connected to, close to, or are cities that have frequent and diverse non-stops to Europe, so the yields from most of those connecting flights would be very depressed making DL more reliant on O&D to a non-SkyTeam airport than DL is probably comfortable taking a risk on.
 
dia77
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RE: Why Don't DL Fly LHR To SLC?

Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:30 am

Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 19):
Didn't United try to operate London to Denver a few years back and this got dropped after a while, due to low demand?

It wasn't due to lack of demand - there definitely is demand between DEN and LHR (as shown by BA and DOT traffic numbers). The flight was dropped because UA probably found a more profitable route to operate in lieu of DEN-LHR. In the case of SLC (which is a much smaller market than DEN), DL can route passengers through another hub. There isn't an incumbent airline on SLC-LHR so DL isn't losing traffic to another airline on the SLC-LHR O/D market. DL knows they can route SLC traffic through another hub. This is a similar reason why UA hasn't showed much interest in DEN-NRT, even though the market likely exists.
 
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redzeppelin
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RE: Why Don't DL Fly LHR To SLC?

Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:59 am

Quoting doug_Or (Reply 24):
Most trans-atlantic flights in the summer are full most of the time. That really doesn't say much.

Just checked--it was actually on September 22, so pretty well after the Summer season.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Why Don't DL Fly LHR To SLC?

Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:40 am

Quoting redzeppelin (Reply 31):
Just checked--it was actually on September 22, so pretty well after the Summer season.

That is still generally under the summer schedule. Demand really doesn't fall off until October.
Full flights mean absoletely nothing about the economic viability of a flight.
Also, generally most TATL flights have more originating traffic from Europe than from the USA.
Nothing unique to the SLC-CDG flight here that couldn't be said about others.

Right now I do not thinking DL has much interest in serving this market. DL is being very conservative and risk-adverse, particularly on TATL lately. Look at all of the route cancelations that happened across the Atlantic for Winter 2012, and look at the reductions and seasonal flights not coming back for Summer 2012. They quickly pulled the plug on MIA-LHR.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: Why Don't DL Fly LHR To SLC?

Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:07 am

AS others said the real problem is that SLC has so many Delta hubs on the way to connect people thru. Theres MSP, JFK, and DTW literally on the way and ATL not too bad. Its a route that i think Delta can pull off but in this economy it would certainly pull some seats off of the closer hubs which is really the issue.

SLC has some decent o&d numbers to London which are much higher than comparable sized cities and enough to pull the flight off with a hub. Unlike most of the cities people think are similar SLC has many many advantages and more companies likely to buy a few business seats but it may not make the most financial sense right now or totally necessary. As others said DL probably is getting alot of the London passengers anyway they are not loosing them to another carrier flying the route N/S or anything.

IIRC the CEO of Delta said that London was a destination that SLC would have it was just a question of when or something along those words. The when might be after this current economic uncertainty and crisis is over. SLC has quite a few large offices of financial service companies like goldman sachs, american express and many others that would buy some seats on a N/S but the majority would be people whom delta could connect thru another hub or leisure passengers to whom a connect is not too big a deal. Its a flight that i think will happen eventually i think its just not the best time in this economy and we all know LHR slots dont fall out of the sky. Its a route that i think is very much dependent on how the other LHR routes are performing and filling. Delta might surprise us and roll this out for summer of 2013 but i do think this route will eventually happen.
 
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usdcaguy
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RE: Why Don't DL Fly LHR To SLC?

Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:01 am

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 28):
Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 33):
Its a route that i think Delta can pull off but in this economy it would certainly pull some seats off of the closer hubs which is really the issue.

Which is correct. I believe SLC-LHR could pull too many people off MSP-LHR, which relies heavily on feed from other cities. MSP has retained service to many of the markets served from SLC, so it is just as easy to connect over MSP from places like Montana as it is over SLC. Adding SLC-LHR could possibly take away too much from MSP-LHR and therefore leave DL with two underperforming flights. Yield is also a major concern these days, so I don't think we'll see DL adding SLC-LHR in the near future, unless it is a very seasonal route.
 
UAL777UK
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RE: Why Don't DL Fly LHR To SLC?

Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:07 am

With the so called build up that DL have been trying at LAX for sometime i would have thought that LHR-LAX would be more prudent before SLC. It would give ST the presence on the route and straight over to the west coast. DL IMHO should have had a stab at this instead of AF way back.

Just my   
 
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RWA380
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RE: Why Don't DL Fly LHR To SLC?

Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:22 am

SLC doesn't need to capture O/D traffic with a non-stop flight, most people who travel in and out of SLC, ARE loyal DL fliers, they will connect through DTW, MSP, ATL or JFK, heck maybe even CDG to get to London, the very few fliers in SLC that aren't loyal DL fliers will take the rest of the options, DL already has the O/D market captured.
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slcdeltarumd11
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RE: Why Don't DL Fly LHR To SLC?

Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:22 pm

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 35):
With the so called build up that DL have been trying at LAX for sometime i would have thought that LHR-LAX would be more prudent before SLC. It would give ST the presence on the route and straight over to the west coast. DL IMHO should have had a stab at this instead of AF way back.

I dont think it would have been much different. The flight was sold on delta.com and showed up on every search engine and was listed as a delta flight number too. For anyone loyal to delta or wanting delta miles the flight was obvious and very visable. What advantage would there be if delta actually flew it themselves? This flight was an actual disaster, not even close to working out and used a 777 and a ton of fuel. By the end they were literally giving seats away and still couldn't fill this plane. This was an actual cash burning flight

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