bastew
Topic Author
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DL Dropping MIA-LHR

Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:25 pm

Not long after starting the route Delta is dropping MIA-LHR due to high costs and fuel prices.

It gained slots to operate the route when BA/AA had to relinquish a slot on the LHR-MIA route in order to gain Anti Trust immunity.

These changes are on the back of Deltas' announcement that it will also cease LGW-ATL completely withdrawing service from that airport and increasing frequency on LHR-ATL.
 
dtwpilot225
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RE: DL Dropping MIA-LHR

Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:27 pm

Delta had also set up a mini operation for Pinnacle out of MIA to connect these london flights. Pinnacle is and or was doing MIA-TPA, MIA-MCO, MIA JAX, and MIA RDU. I think all of those are going away as well.
 
LondonCity
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RE: DL Dropping MIA-LHR

Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:28 pm

 
peanuts
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RE: DL Dropping MIA-LHR

Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:37 pm

Something smells. DL needs way more time for a route to develop. Why wouldn't they stick it out? Stick it out at least for the period that the slot deal would have required...

so:

-Numbers really look terrible, no reason to hang in there...DL may be predicting oil prices to soar even more soon.
-Something in the works with VS
-DL wants to make a gutsy move with a very uncertain outcome (AA assets)

If it's none of the above I would consider this a major "strategic MIA and/or LHR adjustment".

[Edited 2012-02-24 05:42:33]
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: DL Dropping MIA-LHR

Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:42 pm

Quoting peanuts (Reply 3):
-Numbers really look terrible, no reason to hang in there...
-Something in the works with VS

Its one of these two. Personally, I think it may be both.
It is what it is...
 
bastew
Topic Author
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RE: DL Dropping MIA-LHR

Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:51 pm

I agree. Maybe they jumped in a bit too quick without doing the proper sums as they slot that had to be relinquished by BA/AA was open to all bidders. With BA starting a 3rd daily flight end of march the competition would have been ramped up ever more as well which would have put even more pressure on DL's yield.
 
skymiler
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RE: DL Dropping MIA-LHR

Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:01 pm

such a shame -- I did a R/T MIA LHR in December and it was great, and convenient, and was planning another in May.

I understood that the equipment would change to a 763 from the 764, but with the lie flats, in J etc.

I love to fly, and it shows!
 
A388
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RE: DL Dropping MIA-LHR

Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:11 pm

I never expected the DL MIA-LHR flight to be succesful looking at the major presence of BA and the AA hub for OneWorld Alliance connectivity.

A388
 
davescj
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RE: DL Dropping MIA-LHR

Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:11 pm

LHR- MIA has heavy competion from BA/AA. Remember, connections to South America on AA go out of MIA, so there are good connections both there and into the US.

DL had no real support for the routes that are not leisure routes (TPA, MCO, etc.) RDU already has a London route (AA), BA has TPA and MCO. So where was the need for DL's MIA- LHR? DL doesn't heave a massive MIA route.

What would make more sense is for DL to begin a route to LHR where they can have more contracts and higher fare pax (LAX for example? maybe BOS or SLC?).

MIA- CDG/AMS would have made more sense as part of a JV I would think.

Dave
Can I have a mojito on this flight?
 
staralliance85
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RE: DL Dropping MIA-LHR

Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:31 pm

The only strong routes that DL has from London are to JFK, ATL and maybe DTW. Any other routes are Not worth it for DL. They probably got killed by AA/BA on the MIA route because MIA is Not even a DL focus city and a strong OW hub. DL just needs to focus on JFK and ATL as their international gateways. What DL needs the most is VS. ST can use a new good member. It doesn't seem like *A members like LH (BMI deal to BA) and UA (Not picking up CO's relationship with VS) are so eager to have a relationship with VS. VS is certainly Not going to OW so they need ST.

However, SQ owning 49% of VS could be in a conflict of interest if they allow them to join ST. DL/AF/KL should strike a deal to SQ and Sir RB and make it happen. Dl will Not have to add more flights to LHR but codeshare with VS and would be a win win situation for both parties. DL would have code shares with VS to JFK, EWR, IAD, MIA, ORD, LAS, LAX and SFO. VS has a healthy prescence at JFK so it would be perfect in having a relationship with DL. Maybe even do a slot swap with *A members who want to be at EWR, close to UA.


As for LGW, it was Yesterdays News and it was inevitable that they were going to cut that route.
brad Fitzpatrick
 
flymia
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RE: DL Dropping MIA-LHR

Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:56 pm

There is no way in their short time in the route they could establish the route well enough to get some of the higher fares which of course due to MIA's AA hub AA/BA get most of. The planes were full but just full with low fares. They were competing with the monster of AA/BA which BA is going to start a 3rd daily flight from MIA soon. AA has its daily flight and on some days two-three flights to LHR from MIA and of course VS daily MIA-LHR. That is a lot of competition but also a very large market. But they just did not A) establish themselves long enough and B) Have that little bit of extra feed that could make the route work a bit better.

Quoting davescj (Reply 8):
What would make more sense is for DL to begin a route to LHR where they can have more contracts and higher fare pax (LAX for example? maybe BOS or SLC?).

They do fly BOS-LHR they started both BOS-LHR and MIA-LHR because they were given the slots once BA/AA got their ATI. But the slots can only be used for MIA-LHR and BOS-LHR.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
MAV88
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RE: DL Dropping MIA-LHR

Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:59 pm

Does AA/BA connect a decent amount of people through MIA going to/from Europe to Latin America?

I know millions of people connect from domestic destinations through MIA to Latin America, but am curious how many go international to international.
 
incitatus
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RE: DL Dropping MIA-LHR

Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:02 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 10):
There is no way in their short time in the route they could establish the route well enough to get some of the higher fares which of course due to MIA's AA hub AA/BA get most of.

That is not what we read here at the time. We read that DL has a huge FF base in South Florida's huge market and making the flight viable would be easy. Many folks stated that MIA-LHR had a far better chance than BOS-LHR. Even though BOS isn't really anybody's hub.

Overall I say kudos to DL. If they can hold on to BOS-LHR, it is a significant win for them.
Stop pop up ads
 
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fxramper
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RE: DL Dropping MIA-LHR

Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:05 pm

Where in the announcement does it say that AA was kicking their butt and they are axing the route? Comical they thought they could compete out of MIA. Delta dartboard strikes again.
 
planesailing
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RE: DL Dropping MIA-LHR

Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:09 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 10):
They do fly BOS-LHR they started both BOS-LHR and MIA-LHR because they were given the slots once BA/AA got their ATI. But the slots can only be used for MIA-LHR and BOS-LHR.

It is worth noting that the BOS route has been cut from twice daily down to one flight, so it is not performing either.

The slots are being returned for reallocation.
 
delta2ual
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RE: DL Dropping MIA-LHR

Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:17 pm

Quoting fxramper (Reply 13):
Delta dartboard strikes again.

I was shocked to read 12 whole posts before somebody said this. I think DL should just never start a new route again; if a route is successful, nobody cares; if it isn't, somebody brings up the dartboard. That's the best part of A-Net; total predictability for every topic discussed.
From the world's largest airline-to the world's largest airline. Delta2ual
 
mikey72
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RE: DL Dropping MIA-LHR

Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:41 pm

Do the slots now go back to BA/AA or will another airline have a go at LHR-MIA ?
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
ldvaviation
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RE: DL Dropping MIA-LHR

Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:48 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 16):
Do the slots now go back to BA/AA or will another airline have a go at LHR-MIA ?

If no one applies for the slots, BA can make use of them until the next allocation period. After 10 years, the slots revert permanently back to BA. (They are BA's, not AA's slots.)
 
mikey72
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RE: DL Dropping MIA-LHR

Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:33 pm

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 17):
If no one applies for the slots,

Ooh, maybe I'll have a crack at it ! Lol

Wonder if i'd get some sort of enterprise grant ?

All I'd need is a couple of 748i's, handful of pilots and maybe what 50,60 crew ?

Game on !!
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
TeamintheSky
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RE: DL Dropping MIA-LHR

Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:47 pm

I had friends come in from BHM to LHR and they were routed to ATL to MIA then to LHR. So if the planes were full, it was because people were taking very cheap fares to be routed through a couple of places.

I tend to think that VS and DL are very close to forming a codesharing relationship. This has been in the works, but from what I understand, VS's asking price was too high for DL. With BA consolidating power, VS has to find a strong partner in the USA, especially with the agreement with CO ending. For DL, it makes sense since they will have relationships with both VS and DJ.

However, as staralliance aptly points out, I don't think DL will be adding VS to SkyTeam or even a JV because of SQ's ownership.
Since 2010: DL, KL, AF, WX, IG, FR , FL, U2, AK, BA, OK, UX, VS, VN, K6, AT, US, AY, BE, EI, LG, AZ, 9W, SG, AA, JL, W6
 
skipness1E
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RE: DL Dropping MIA-LHR

Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:07 pm

Delta are also strong on MSP-LHR as well, built up over many years by NWA, initially from LGW.
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: DL Dropping MIA-LHR

Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:38 pm

Amazing that a bunch of aviation novices such as myself here on a.net knew this route would never work. Yet Delta is paying someone a very nice salary in ATL to make these decisions and they didn't see it.

Really makes you wonder how firm that ground you walk on really is. Likely lost millions if not tens of millions with this stupid experiment.
 
LONGisland89
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RE: DL Dropping MIA-LHR

Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:52 pm

Quoting delta2ual (Reply 15):
I was shocked to read 12 whole posts before somebody said this. I think DL should just never start a new route again; if a route is successful, nobody cares; if it isn't, somebody brings up the dartboard. That's the best part of A-Net; total predictability for every topic discussed.

The dartboard exists. I've past several offices in HQ that have wall maps with little holes in it (evidence of dart throwing).
 
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fxramper
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RE: DL Dropping MIA-LHR

Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:06 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 21):
Amazing that a bunch of aviation novices such as myself here on a.net knew this route would never work. Yet Delta is paying someone a very nice salary in ATL to make these decisions and they didn't see it.

The DL koolaid drinkers continue to argue this opinion but I agree with you. I have no allegiance to any airline including the one I work for. I use common sense when I talk about DL and their dartboard.
 
hiflyer
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RE: DL Dropping MIA-LHR

Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:11 pm

I smell a deal out there....to give it up before high summer season there has got to be some incentive beside keeping the aircraft......England is good money during the summer no matter what.
 
simairlinenet
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RE: DL Dropping MIA-LHR

Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:11 pm

Quoting LONGisland89 (Reply 22):
The dartboard exists. I've past several offices in HQ that have wall maps with little holes in it (evidence of dart throwing).

You mean the wall maps on which Delta employees plan future vacations? Because I have one of those...
 
EricR
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RE: DL Dropping MIA-LHR

Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:30 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 21):
Amazing that a bunch of aviation novices such as myself here on a.net knew this route would never work. Yet Delta is paying someone a very nice salary in ATL to make these decisions and they didn't see it.

Really makes you wonder how firm that ground you walk on really is. Likely lost millions if not tens of millions with this stupid experiment.

It may appear that way, but we really do not know what the rationale was behind launching and subsequently discontinuing the route. There could have been legitimate factors that may appear crazy on the outside, but make sense internally (at least I hope this was the case).
 
ebbuk
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RE: DL Dropping MIA-LHR

Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:32 pm

Nobody can make a new route work with 767s. Not with fuel prices as they are and the rate at which that planes burns it. Was never going to work on that point alone. The other points that have been given are all valid I am sure but of my own, I'm certain.
 
airbazar
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RE: DL Dropping MIA-LHR

Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:48 pm

Quoting ebbuk (Reply 27):
Nobody can make a new route work with 767s. Not with fuel prices as they are and the rate at which that planes burns it. Was never going to work on that point alone.

I suppose that's why the 767 outnumbers any other aircraft on TATL routes   
 
ks5114
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RE: DL Dropping MIA-LHR

Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:21 pm

What jet did they use on this route? 763 or 772?
 
klkla
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RE: DL Dropping MIA-LHR

Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:38 pm

Where did DL get the additional slots for ATL-LHR that are being added at around the same time that this route is being discontinued?
 
dlramp4life
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RE: DL Dropping MIA-LHR

Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:46 pm

DL is cutting back in Europe, that is one of the things that is going on for the 2012 year, grow in south america and asia, cut back in europe because of the economic situation over there.
SEA Ramp, wettest place on earth
 
OOer
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RE: DL Dropping MIA-LHR

Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:49 pm

This is just such a stupid move. If the route was losing money, why wasn't it axed in November? No...instead they're going to kill it right before the busy summer travel season and right before the Olympics. How does that make sense again?
 
planesailing
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RE: DL Dropping MIA-LHR

Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:11 pm

Quoting ks5114 (Reply 29):
What jet did they use on this route? 763 or 772?

764.

Quoting klkla (Reply 30):
Where did DL get the additional slots for ATL-LHR that are being added at around the same time that this route is being discontinued?

The MIA route is being returned as per the conditions of the lease and is already posted for tender again, with a closing date in March. There is debate at present as to the source of the DL39 AM ATL departure.
 
skipness1E
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RE: DL Dropping MIA-LHR

Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:12 pm

Quoting ebbuk (Reply 27):
Nobody can make a new route work with 767s. Not with fuel prices as they are and the rate at which that planes burns it. Was never going to work on that point alone. The other points that have been given are all valid I am sure but of my own, I'm certain.

This is complete nonsense, you have a better platform to launch a new route? No, of course not, it's not the aircraft it's the prevailing market dominance of a strong competition clearly! Good grief!
 
PHX Flyer
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RE: DL Dropping MIA-LHR

Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:22 am

Quoting bastew (Thread starter):
Not long after starting the route Delta is dropping MIA-LHR due to high costs and fuel prices.

What a surprise ... NOT!

Why US airlines ever agreed to the current LHR slot policy is beyond me. Of course, the reason for the route cancellation is not high fuel cost (I'm pretty certain they are very similar to those for any flight btw ATL and LHR). No, the reason for the cancellation is insufficient revenue to cover the cost. It was plain naive to assume that DL coult get a foot on the ground in the MIA long-haul market against AA, even if the destination is LHR.
The question is, wht happens to the slot, if nobody wants it? Is that slot tied to MIA as the US departure airport? Could US Airways possibly claim it to move the CLT flight from LGW to LHR?
 
burnsie28
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RE: DL Dropping MIA-LHR

Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:22 am

Quoting planesailing (Reply 33):
The MIA route is being returned as per the conditions of the lease and is already posted for tender again, with a closing date in March. There is debate at present as to the source of the DL39 AM ATL departure.

According to network it is "LGW station closure and route moves to LHR" take it for what its worth.
 
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chrisnh
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RE: DL Dropping MIA-LHR

Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:47 am

Quoting incitatus (Reply 12):
Overall I say kudos to DL. If they can hold on to BOS-LHR, it is a significant win for them.

Well, if they don't want to be laughed at endlessly they'll stick it out. No airline has started and then ceased more routes out of Boston than Delta.
 
AAIL86
Posts: 420
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:00 am

RE: DL Dropping MIA-LHR

Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:40 am

Quoting fxramper (Reply 13):
Where in the announcement does it say that AA was kicking their butt and they are axing the route? Comical they thought they could compete out of MIA. Delta dartboard strikes again.

Just goes to show how hard it is these days to venture outside the hub. Everyone knows that AA or UA not could compete on DTW-AMS (AMS is not LHR, I know, but you get the point) .. but hey, fair play to Delta, they are operating at a decent profit margin lately - so I guess they can blow a few route startups....

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 18):
Ooh, maybe I'll have a crack at it ! Lol

Wonder if i'd get some sort of enterprise grant ?

All I'd need is a couple of 748i's, handful of pilots and maybe what 50,60 crew ?

Game on !!

Why don't you go for JFK-LED and try grabbing a couple parked 742s??  
Next
 
jporterfi
Posts: 463
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RE: DL Dropping MIA-LHR

Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:32 am

I'm not surprised that Delta wasn't profitable on a route outside its hub. AA and BA probably had that route covered; for Delta, it was probably a long and thin route, hardly enough to justify a 764 on. Anyone know if they could have used a 757 instead, or is MIA - LHR outside of the 757's range?
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 3264
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

RE: DL Dropping MIA-LHR

Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:43 am

Quoting jporterfi (Reply 39):
I'm not surprised that Delta wasn't profitable on a route outside its hub. AA and BA probably had that route covered; for Delta, it was probably a long and thin route, hardly enough to justify a 764 on. Anyone know if they could have used a 757 instead, or is MIA - LHR outside of the 757's range?

It is not a 757 possible route.

Between AA and BAs FF bases in BOTH cities it seemed like a crazy dartboard route anyway. Much like PHL-LAX you are fighting against both cities FF bases which makes these routes especially hard. People back in ATL were playing some darts again for a while. With the risk of fuel going up here i think they might be removing the dart board from the employee lounge for a while here or at least locating it to the basement so people play less.
 
jmc1975
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RE: DL Dropping MIA-LHR

Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:30 am

This is not a surprise...it was the perhaps the biggest herpderp that DL has done in recent years.
.......
 
Bobloblaw
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RE: DL Dropping MIA-LHR

Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:35 pm

I thought Delta never planned on operating it for too long. I think the rules between UK and USA gave another carrier the ability to fly MIA-LHR nonstop, but that it could be moved after some specified period of time...maybe I am wrong.
 
burnsie28
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RE: DL Dropping MIA-LHR

Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:46 pm

Quoting jporterfi (Reply 39):
I'm not surprised that Delta wasn't profitable on a route outside its hub. AA and BA probably had that route covered; for Delta, it was probably a long and thin route, hardly enough to justify a 764 on. Anyone know if they could have used a 757 instead, or is MIA - LHR outside of the 757's range?

It's out of range, but in reality the LHR routes were big on promoting the lie flats that the 764 offered.
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: DL Dropping MIA-LHR

Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:40 pm

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 43):
It's out of range, but in reality the LHR routes were big on promoting the lie flats that the 764
offered.

Yes, but product offering alone isn't going to steal market share away when there are other very important variables that give AA and BA a leg up over the new entrant. Frequency, OneWorld loyalty, feed beyond both hubs on both ends, among other things, are pretty tough to beat unless the entrant is prepared to burn cash for awhile. In an industry with razor-thin margins and escalating oil prices, that is just illogical.
confidence is silent. insecurities are loud.
 
skipness1E
Posts: 3368
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RE: DL Dropping MIA-LHR

Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:23 pm

Worth mentioning that some Heathrow flight numbers were changed at the start of Feb.

DL6 / 5 DTW renumbered DL18 / 19
DL148 / 149 renumbered DL1 / 6

So we still have the oddball fact that every single transatlantic Westbound is even numbered and Eastbound odd numbered except. I am easily annoyed  
DL1 / 3 / 5 JFK-LHR
DL2 / 4 / 6 LHR-JFK !
 
doulasc
Posts: 729
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RE: DL Dropping MIA-LHR

Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:41 pm

This doesn't surprise me. American and British Airways has that route with plenty of flights. When Delta took over the Atlantic routes from Pan Am in 1991 did they operate MIA-LHR for awhile then.

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