Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 87):

CAL loads are down to Jamaica. This despite significant reduction in capacity. Look at the monthly data, they consistently under perform the other carriers' load factors. And definitely are below what they once were, this despite fewer seats. In fact B6 doesnt even have to undercut CAL on their JFK KIN/MBJ route and still even in low season their loads are over 90%, while CAL has much lower load factors.

Now tell me why is this when AA, B6 and others have INCREASED service and indeed KIN is seeing way more competition than it has for a long time?

Jamaicans are not turned on to CAL.Definitely not in the way that they were to JM, before their service standards collapsed. The numbers speak for themselves. So no I didnt need to track every Jamaican down. YOU just need to look at how CAL:s loads are down to the point where even one of the Jamaican ministers was quoted, and this was reported on this site, that passenger loads are down, because Jamaicans arent supporting them. JM in its best days did 5x/d to MIA and now CAL is struggling at 2X/d to FLL!!!!

AJ used to be way ahead the number one carrier into Jamaica. Is CAL on its Jamaica US routes? AA had to flee the JFK KIN route. B6 will serve it with 2x/day in the summer. Now starting FLL KIN. A route that Spirit all but abandoned. AC increasing YYZ KIN...Westjet starting. In AJs heyday few dared to compete with them into KIN. It was JM, BA and AA (MIA only) and almost nobody else.

And as you know its not as if the market is growing. Its that these airlines are grabbing market share.

I rest my case. CAL will either have to win back the patronage of the Jamaican traveling public, or they will have to close down the routes. With the end of the fuel subsidy coming very soon, CAL cannot support loss making routes and indeed their pull back seems to be in realization of that. The Trinidad & Tobago tax payers will NOT support Jamaica's air access from the USA even if 424 wishes that they would.

Quoting time2lyme (Reply 92):

I dont know that any one was saying that the BW LGW KIN route cant work as indeed the pull out of VS allows this to.

Now if you can prove that POS can support a stand alone route then maybe CAL POS LGW can work. Yet it always appears that POS needs to be combined with BGI, UVF or some other island for it to work. BW tried a nonstop and canned it after nit very long.

With APD and an over served UK E/Cbn market any new entrant, definitely one with a weak brand within the UK leisure market, will have a tough time grabbing share into islands like BGI, UVF and ANU. BA and VS have their strong travel packages and distribution. BW dropped out of the market. BA/VS have filled the gap, and in a decling market their is little slack available. Yes any one can jump in but will they get share and yields to be sustainable in an era of high fuel prices?

Remember also that most UK business travel to POS will remain with BA, once they maintain high frequencies. FF, coporate contracts, discounts, loyalty, etc. So is the VFR and T&T based UK destined business market large enough to support a nonstop flight to LGW with at least 3X/week frequencies (will have to be to compete with BAs almost daily service)?

Quoting BW424 (Reply 89):

Oh by the way CAL has SHARPLY cut its JFK GEO airfares now. And they have a nonstop JFK GEO flight. And they offer some good POS GEO fares. Apparently they listen to their customers and know they can not order them on at gun point, even if you think they can. You should learn something from them.

But you bark that Guyanese must tolerate high airfares or else. Well CAL knows their success lies in providing customers what they want and listening to them when they complain. Because of these moves CAL is gaining market share from Delta and protecting their share against the new competition into GEO. This despite a legacy of ill will left by BWIA, and T&T customs and immigration officials.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 100): Yet it always appears that POS needs to be combined with BGI, UVF or some other island for it to work.

Make it CCS-POS-LGW (must be same aircraft, no change of plane whatsoever) and see how CCS will support BW LON flight.
Routing BW POS-LGW via CCS, lovely for the Venezuelans, dreadful for Trinis.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 100): The numbers speak for themselves.

Do you have those numbers for us to analyze? Do you have prove that the decline in load factor is actually caused by Jamaicans not chosing Caribbean Airlines? Do you have prove of these Jamaicans chosing AA and/or B6 to fly? Maybe this decline is also caused by the economic crisis affecting people?

I can believe you but I would just want that prove before making any judgement.

A388

Quoting guyanam (Reply 100):

You should try to post with statistics
JFK-KIN-JFK July/August
B6 KIN 8397 9150 91.7%
MBJ 13368 14550 91.8%
KIN 8134 8700 93.4%
MBJ 12547 13350 93.98%

CAL
KIN 31273 34405 90.90%
MBJ 8657 9744 88.84%
KIN 28475 31802 89.5%
MBJ 8484 8932 94.9%

CAL carried 4 to 5 times more pax than B6 last summer and you should also see the December statistics.

Quoting LimaFoxTango (Reply 99):

Nothing earth shattering, CAL said many times that those operations would do like POS with mainly crew and management staff permanently with the airline. Maybe those persons would be employed with the contractor like POS when BWIA closed.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 100):

Quoting A388 (Reply 102): Do you have prove that the decline in load factor is actually caused by Jamaicans not chosing Caribbean Airlines?

A388 asks a really good question here, ok guyanam, if you do indeed have this data to support your claims please do present it. And to add to A388's question how exactly are you so sure that the increase in LF on other airlines are from jamaicans and not from locals (americans) in the US? These airlines would be more established in the US wouldnt they? im sure this is something you can answer by fact since you live there. So then unless you have the breakdown by nationality of this data you may have please present and prove us wrong, because I believe you cant just base it on load factor alone and what a handful of people say and how many flights they have per day to a place.

just to edit, thank you caribbean484 for posting some numbers

[Edited 2012-03-07 11:05:25]

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 104): And to add to A388's question how exactly are you so sure that the increase in LF on other airlines are from jamaicans and not from locals (americans) in the US? These airlines would be more established in the US wouldnt they?

Yes, that is also a valid point kind of linked to where I want to go. We need to know the (exact) mix of the passengers nationalities flying Caribbean Airlines/Air Jamaica and U.S. airlines. Usually local airlines carry mostly VFR passengers but it doesn't have to be this way necessarily. Also, if less Jamaicans chose to fly Caribbean Airlines/Air Jamaica we need to know if there is a decrease in Jamaicans traveling (due to the economic crisis just to name an example) or if these Jamaicans actually have chosen to fly with other airlines.

We need this crucial data to be able to make a conclusion instead of pointing fingers to each other. Guyanam, convince us and give us all this data, I say!!!  

A388

Quoting guyanam (Reply 100): Oh by the way CAL has SHARPLY cut its JFK GEO airfares now. And they have a nonstop JFK GEO flight. And they offer some good POS GEO fares. Apparently they listen to their customers and know they can not order them on at gun point, even if you think they can. You should learn something from them

Based on what I am seeing, CAL's fares JFK-GEO are not much lower, but the 526/527 is lower, to compete with EZJet. I also notice that 526/527 is running until EZJet's charter is contractually over, which convinces me more it is just to keep EZJet at bay.

I also notice that they are running 526/527 JFK-GEO-POS/POS-GEO-JFK. While I don't believe that CAL will be running 526/527 for very long, once EZJet if out of the way that flight will be gone, I distinctly remember the "experts" on this forum saying south-north from POS will NEVER work and made it sound like that idea was preposterous.

The lower fares POS-GEO are to compete with REDjet. If FlyJamaica starts they may be faced with similar competing flights.

I hope CAL can afford to keep doing this and they don't run themselves into a hole while trying.

GUYAIR707

Quoting guyanam (Reply 80): I truly doubt those routes proposed to HAV, BZE, SDQ, PAP will make sense if the FLL and JFK routes bomb. These are all routes which were floown in times past and I doubt will attract 100+ passengers/flight.

The last time KIN-BZE was flown by an established carrier was TA in the 60s (maybe 50s). You may be thinking of MBJ - BZE....but no one in BZE goes to MBJ...it is all KIN, BGI and POS....i have the data to prove that.

The JM experiment forced you to overnight in MBJ if you wanted to go to KIN....ugh! Butch and Co had no idea what they were doing.

If BW take a hard look with the data at BZE-KIN (with timing to connections at the BZE end to SAL, SAP and GUA and at the KIN end to POS) they will have zero problem filling the ATR.

If they don't do it....TA will eventually. I know TA has and the numbers work, but TA is trying to get away from Tags and non-core stuff.

An ATR hub in KIN with flights to HAV, PAP, SDQ, SJU, GCM, BZE and a few others...maybe even GUA (The trade between CARICOM and SICA is growing rapidly....Grace, digital etc etc) could work

Quoting baje427 (Reply 97): BW left all of their BGI- North America routes because they were unprofitable no need to return given all the routes they operated other than MIA are covered by two carriers.

True. Also, remember that when Caribbean Airlines were founded they did away with the Caribbean-wide focus which old BW were well-known for and instead concentrated on POS, which is why the US services via BGI, ANU etc. were stopped.

Quoting AA1818 (Reply 78): BW currently flies that route and the figures were published in the Newspapers- less than 50% LF, somewhere between 45 and 55 PED. I assume they also route some POS pax via TAB to make the flight viable.

The flight is currently once per week. Unfortunately TAB - United States air services have struggled over the years. They were first attempted back in 1988 when BW flew to MIA via a long milk-run route (POS - TAB - GND - UVF - ANU - MIA) but by the following year TAB was removed. When TAB's runway was extended in 1991 BW tried again with a few MIA and JFK services but these were again short-lived. American Eagle came to TAB in 1996 with daily flights to SJU and lasted 4 years during which time the services were shuffled a bit, including routing via SVD. More recently of course we had DL doing ATL but their departure was perhaps more linked to their POS withdrawal than anything else. TAB is a very small market and has little tourism from the US. While it does have a US based Diaspora in its own right such a market is small and seasonal too. Nevertheless, we can hope that with some marketing things will turn out fine for new BW's route.

Quoting LimaFoxTango (Reply 96): Is it that BA and AC couldn't compete or there was just no market for two airlines? Or perhaps the Trini population rather take their own airline rather than a newcomer they didn't know?

BA and AC were not newcomers in POS at all. BA (initially as BOAC) served POS for many years until they pulled out in late 1994. At that time POS was in deep recession, the tourist markets in other islands were beginning to flourish and BA focused on the leisure market with their Caribbean routes. POS did not fit the bill and with BW offering daily services compared to BA's 2, later 1, weekly BA threw in the towel. While TAB was a rising star in the tourism world at the time BA sent their subsidiary, Caledonian, there and the latter's success was also instrumental in BA's departure from POS. AC served POS between 1948 and 2008 - again they started under a different name, Trans Canada Airlines before adopting their current bilingual name in the 1960s. AC were undone by the charters such as TS and SkyService which undercut their fares and BW which retained local loyalty. It has been said that the RBC takeover of RBTT, in which BW were retained as the preferred air carrier, was the final blow to AC in POS.

Quoting A388 (Reply 98): I think you are right. It isn't that BA or AC couldn't compete with Caribbean Airlines (I mean let's get serious, these are big airlines). It's a matter of the market that was lacking (as Trinidad isn't a tourist destination) and that the local people preferring their own airline. Caribbean Airlines is doing well so far because of the lack of real competition at their homebase, that's it. In Jamaica they face a whole different market with a lot of competition because of all the tourists going to Jamaica. This necessitates adjustment to that market from their side in my opinion. Whether Jamaicans themselves take Caribbean Airlines or the new Air Jamaica or not, I'll leave that to time. They have been around in Jamaica for like a little over 1 year?

Fully agree. Also, with this debate about BW's fortunes with JM, we just need to give them some time. The aviation world right now is struggling, airlines are folding all around us (see JK, MA for instance), AA are under Chapter 11 protection - really before anybody can state that the fortunes or lack thereof of an airline are down to just one factor, please reconsider. There is a much greater picture to behold right now.

Trintocan.

Quoting trintocan (Reply 108):

Quoting trintocan (Reply 108): Fully agree. Also, with this debate about BW's fortunes with JM, we just need to give them some time. The aviation world right now is struggling, airlines are folding all around us (see JK, MA for instance), AA are under Chapter 11 protection - really before anybody can state that the fortunes or lack thereof of an airline are down to just one factor, please reconsider. There is a much greater picture to behold right now.

More words of wisdom! Right on!

JmBweeboy

I am not sure if this was posted but it doesn't seem a done deal. With Liat's woes, not sure when. Surinam Airways could probably do a PBM-PAP-AMS if they feel Hatians would use that route.

http://www.caribjournal.com/2012/02/...urinam-airways-could-fly-to-haiti/

Very interesting article on REDjet. Same sentiment was said on this thread. Seems a little strange that REDjet opened and did not realize that they would have to make the applications to the various governments, very bad planning for such a big investment. Maybe they thought they would have been good will and they would have had an easier time.

http://www.centreforaviation.com/ana...oadblock-to-redjet-expansion-66501

Trintocan has hit the nail on the head fuel prices are killing the global market especially airlines in the Caribbean. Fuel is seen as a major cause of Bahamasair's losses. Bahamasair as a "Caribbean" airline is not discussed much on this thread.

http://www.tribune242.com/business/02272012_Bair_business_Page1-Lead

With that recent sighting of AZ in SXM seems they are making a push into the caribbean. Apparently AZ wants to do a one stop into Cayman Islands using KX as the connection.

http://www.compasscayman.com/caycomp...talian-tourism-targeted-by-Cayman/

I've noticed that both Cayman Airways and Bahamasair are both using older 737's, maybe they should upgrade and save on fuel.

With regards the laying off of the Air Jamaica employees, it seems BW is outsourcing to a Barbados based company. Being that Barbados is a bit more expensive than other Caribbean nations, maybe an alternative would make more sense. I am saying this although I am not privy to the details, like IT and similar issues that may have caused this decision. I am thinking purely on labour costs and fixed costs.

With BW and their Jamaican market, I hope they can improve their market share and get it going, it would be great if it works out. BW seems, generally to be doing a good job in POS. They need to convert some of that good work to KIN.


GUYAIR707

Hey Guys 9Y-TTD currently F-WWLS is in Canada doing some demo flights for WestJet

Quoting time2lyme (Reply 92): If their management team can get back to what they were two years ago when the buy out of JM began, then watch out everyone else. BW/JM has been very impressive with their success against other airlines, and they can be again.

And there lies the issue. CAL management team and leadership leaves much to be desired compared to what it once was. Anyone with an ounce of business acumen knows that the Board of Directors is critical to any corporation's strategic direction and long-term success.

Quoting LimaFoxTango (Reply 96): They had no chance when Nicholas went public to say CAL is "looking at big planes to go back to London". With plans to lease 777's and now 767's a year later shows me there's no direction.

Valid point. Though their plans seem to mirror the original plans back when Saunders/Brunton were at the helm, the process seems rushed and definitely bullied into by the chairman.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 100):

So you make noise about CAL not having a clue about what they're doing in various markets, yet now you conveniently want to say they do and I can learn something from them?? LOL. I said it many times.....your logic is almost always severely flawed, and you always manage to bring in petty island politics that you think may gain you a dribble of validity, which it does not. As other members on here have said, you bring absolutely no statistics nor any sort of data analysis to back up your highly emotional rants. But.....to each his own.

Quoting A388 (Reply 105): Also, if less Jamaicans chose to fly Caribbean Airlines/Air Jamaica we need to know if there is a decrease in Jamaicans traveling (due to the economic crisis just to name an example) or if these Jamaicans actually have chosen to fly with other airlines.

guyanam has sensitive data that we are not privy to, therefore, we must take his word as the gospel truth. We don't know any better.  

Quoting GUYAIR707 (Reply 110): With BW and their Jamaican market, I hope they can improve their market share and get it going, it would be great if it works out. BW seems, generally to be doing a good job in POS. They need to convert some of that good work to KIN.

That hopefully will happen. But a solid improvement will only come with a BOD with national/regional interest at heart.

Quoting trintocan (Reply 108): Fully agree. Also, with this debate about BW's fortunes with JM, we just need to give them some time. The aviation world right now is struggling, airlines are folding all around us (see JK, MA for instance), AA are under Chapter 11 protection - really before anybody can state that the fortunes or lack thereof of an airline are down to just one factor, please reconsider. There is a much greater picture to behold right now.

Entirely true, that's linked to what I said that we are experiencing an economic crisis which can cause air travel to decrease or slow down and of course airlines are also part of the economy so they are not always exempted from any negative economic impact.

Quoting BW424 (Reply 112): guyanam has sensitive data that we are not privy to, therefore, we must take his word as the gospel truth. We don't know any better.

Yes, that might well be so. Also my apologies for my reaction earlier in this thread. The two new loading bridges are being installed now and on March 31st there is an open day to the public at the airport because the airport operator (CAP) exists 5 years this year. There will be stands and demonstrations that day for the visitors.

A388

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 107): The last time KIN-BZE was flown by an established carrier was TA in the 60s (maybe 50s). You may be thinking of MBJ - BZE....but no one in BZE goes to MBJ...it is all KIN, BGI and POS....i have the data to prove that.

I had old TA schedules from the 70's and by that time they flew BZE-MBJ (well it was shown on their route map like that).

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 107): If they don't do it....TA will eventually. I know TA has and the numbers work, but TA is trying to get away from Tags and non-core stuff.

One of those TA Regional could fly BZE-RTB/LCE-GCM-KIN... problem solved. But as it was said, TA is getting away from non-core stuff.
Cayman Airways could also explore the possibility of a KIN-GCM-LCE-BZE route, but seems they've other things on their mind.

I've always wondered when aircraft like CAL's ATR do promotions for other airlines do they get a discount on the aircraft how does the process work?

Quoting baje427 (Reply 115): I've always wondered when aircraft like CAL's ATR do promotions for other airlines do they get a discount on the aircraft how does the process work?

Yes, usually some form of compensation is involved as the aircraft is used by the manufacturer and not the airline itself. One must also not forget that these promotional flights also promote the airline itself so it works both ways. In nutshell, they do get discounts or compensations but at the same time it's "free promotion" for the airline involved too.

A388

May just be me but when you used to see/or see Air Jamaica's livery in a cold snowy backdrop it gave/gives a sense of that island/Caribbean warmth....not so much with BW's livery. Well like I said that's just IMHO.


  
-2263

Quoting caribbean484 (Reply 103):

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 104):

Quoting A388 (Reply 102):

http://rjrnewsonline.com/business/ja...-snubbing-air-jamaica-dennis-lalor

This was posted here a mere few weeks ago. I suggest you take up your debate with him. Now do you claim to have more facts at your disposal then he does. Note that July was BEFORE the summer fiasco of canceled flights, etc. Many Jamaicans were willing to give them a try at that point. Sincethen are they if an alternate is available?.

So what has happened since then? What are ther current bookings, Mr Lalor wants your help as you think he doesnt know what he is talking about.



Also when you determine how popular an airline is do so at NONPEAK periods. B6 underserved JFK KIN last summer with one flight per day (maybe to charge high fares) , which they do NOT plan to do this summer. With 4,000 passengers in July and loads of 90%+ clearly they offered only a daily flight. I do recall the scenes at JFK KIN and MBJ @ CAL counters, so dont bring up last summer as proof of CALs popularity. Too many youtube videos will show you otherwise.

It appears as if B6 feels confident that they can sustain this increased capacity w/o diluting yield or offering a more favorable baggage policy.

Its no point denying the obvious. CAL lacks a hold over Jamaicans. Even though AJ offered unreliable service in its last days it was able to keep competitors out of KIN, other than AA to MIA. CAL comes in and then B6, and now Westjet come racing in, this after AC has decided to increaze its KIN service.

Also the passenger mix into KIN is the same as it has always been. If foreign carriers were too scared to take on JM (indeed AA dropped KIN JFK) then why are AC, Westjet, and B6 so bold? Please dont tell me that US/Canadians tolerated unreliable service from JM but have suddenly decided not to use BW which is considerably more reliable.

Despite decent fares and sharply improved reliability it appears as if CAL is vulnerable into KIN, moreso than JM was, this according to Mr Lalor.

What ever the reason for this its clear that CAL has a problem with Jcans, which is hurting the airline financially (employee layoffs and route reductions).

I

Quoting trintocan (Reply 108):

Fuel subsidies ending soon. CAL will have to be fully cash self reliant as GORTT will not provide support and DEFINITELY not for Jamaica. If Jcan routes are still losing money how do you suppose these losses will be financed?

CAL doesnt have time to try and figure it out and these moves are clearly indicative oof this. CAL is no AA so comparisons are meaningless. Creditors arent going to negotiate with them the way they will with AA. They will just stop providing service and order planes seized as we know from the BWIA fiasco.

[Edited 2012-03-08 12:12:08]

[Edited 2012-03-08 12:15:31]

Quoting speedbird2263 (Reply 117): May just be me but when you used to see/or see Air Jamaica's livery in a cold snowy backdrop it gave/gives a sense of that island/Caribbean warmth....not so much with BW's livery. Well like I said that's just IMHO.

I think the new colors used now also give the same island/Caribbean warmth feeling as it is still very colorful. I really don't see the difference here. If this livery would have been Air Jamaica's previous livery and the previous livery would have been the current livery, would the "previous livery" have been preferred? Any child or young aviation enthusiast of this time and age who have never seen the old Air Jamaica livery will have a emotional attachment to the new Air Jamaica colors. It's just a matter of what you are accustomed to. It's the same as my beloved ALM of the '80s. I would love to see that livery flying around again but I have the ability to move on and accept the new local airlines Dutch Antilles Express and Insel Air who fly now. Children and young aviation enthusiasts now, won't have a particular attachment to ALM as they have never seen them in real life. To them the new airlines Dutch Antilles Express and Insel Air are their airlines who they grow attached to. I have the ability to move on so if these airlines would also fall apart (which I don't hope of course), well, let the next local airline come.

A388

Quoting A388 (Reply 119):

Livery is unimportant except to plane watchers. People board directly and so never see what the plane looks like.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 120): Livery is unimportant except to plane watchers. People board directly and so never see what the plane looks like.

Airline liveries are important as that gives the emotional attachment the traveler has. Why do think BA had to abandon their World Images liveries on the tails of their entire fleet? Have you ever heard of brand recognition and its importance?

A388

Quoting A388 (Reply 121):

And when do passengers actually see the plane's livery? Just about every airport served by Air Ja now has boarding gates.

In the scheme of reasons why people chose an airline livery isnt high. This from some one who hates that ghastly CAL purple but knows that it will not matter one iota to that airline's bottom line.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 122): And when do passengers actually see the plane's livery? Just about every airport served by Air Ja now has boarding gates. In the scheme of reasons why people chose an airline livery isnt high. This from some one who hates that ghastly CAL purple but knows that it will not matter one iota to that airline's bottom line.

When do passengers actually see the livery? Let me think, hmmm, their tickets, the airline's website, check-in counters, baggage tags, they all reflect the airline's livery. Let me think further ahead, hmmm, the aircraft parked in front of their gate, the aircraft arriving at the gate when you wait to board. You should definately see a livery there.

Again, why do you think BA had to abandon their World Images tail logos? I see you have not heard of brand recognition and its importance...

A388

Quoting guyanam (Reply 122):

Apparently you've never been to KIN, the jetways have windows all the way to the point you enter the aircraft, so therefore they can see the livery of the aircraft, also there are windows at the gate where the aircraft is parked, I hope you can name an airport where air j flies and you can't see the aircraft your flying on and as A388 said brand recognition is important, it produces an identity, like what JM was to jamaicans and what BW is to Trinidadians,etc

Anyway, Guyanam you have your own opinion and we have ours, What ever the facts are, it may be true it may not be, but really I still think its way too early to tell and make a full judgment, time will tell, in the mean time I think we all should move on from this

[Edited 2012-03-08 13:59:31]

Quoting A388 (Reply 123):

BWIA had one of the best logos and liveries yet many refused to use them. Too much drama of the negative kind, especially in its last days.

Maybe long ago when people had time and opportunity to actually look at the aircraft prior to boarding or while waiting to see people off. Do you think folks have time to admire the plane, while scrambling to get food before they board, race to get on early to get the best overhead locker nearest to their seats, in the interim handling their kids, many dragging bags (you know Caribbean people)?

CAL has purple quite prominent, not a color that most associate with happy thoughts. CAL has regained most of BWIAs lost market share on the POS routes. Also done what it is failing to do on the KIN routes, and that is run off the competition. Drabber logo than its Jamaican brand, yet more success.

Reliable service, airfares, friendly ground and cabin service, these are what gets people to select an airline. Clearly BWIAs pretty logo vs CALs funereal purple indicates something. That is low down on the scale of why people select an airline. AA's drab silver should also say something.


And I repeat this from some one who thinks that CAL has some of the ugliest most UNCaribbean logos any where. I dont like it...who cares!!! If bodies board at fares that allow the airline to cover costs thats really the bottom line. And in any case people's tastes vary so who is to say whether the public, accustomed to BWIA's rich colorful logos, finds the drab CAL logo appealing or not. I dont like it...you do.

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 124):

So what do you think of Mr Lalor's comments? Clearly more important than whether people think CAL/AJ has pretty planes or not?

Mr Lalor is on the Board so if he says Jamaicans are snubbing the airline he knows something...do you think? Willing to bet that problems with the Jamaican routes is taking up much of the time of the senior management and the Board.

[Edited 2012-03-08 14:19:29]

[Edited 2012-03-08 14:22:20]

Very happy to see 9Y-ANU back in service. It was down for quite a while. Does anyone know, or care to say if TJR and TJS are still with BW? Are there any other a/c undergoing long maintenance (C-Check)?

Here is an old article on the upcoming Surinam Airways GEO-MIA service using a 733. I am not so sure this service will last, as I don't believe there are enough loads to sustain it. Let's see.

"Cairo pointed out that passengers to Europe, India and China, can now choose to travel through Georgetown, since it is more costly to do so when travelling through Paramaribo."

Strange Cairo, the Vice President of Commerical Affairs for Surinam Airways would say that, seems he is shooting himself in the foot, since Surinam Airways has a PBM-AMS service. Maybe it's a misprint or taken out of context.

http://www.kaieteurnewsonline.com/20...eorgetown-miami-flight-from-april/

For those not in the know the 743 in the pic is no longer in service, they use a A343.


Pilots arriving at GEO will be happy to know that the ILS apparently has been installed:

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/bus...at-guyanas-airport--139575563.html

GUYAIR707

[Edited 2012-03-08 15:13:27]

Just read this Newsday article on BW. There seems to be a misprint or ignorance of a/c (767ER-200). As far as I know the a/c will be 763. Apparently the arrival of the first 763 will be April 10 and in full BW colours.

It is strange, according to the article that the ads for the new POS-LGW was not advertised in the T&T press.

The article goes on to say the TAB-JFK service has very sparse loads, 33 pax off peak and 45 peak. Since this flight originates in POS couldn't they feed some pax on that flight and reduce one nonstop POS-JFK, or it is better not to mess with something that works?? Does anyone know whether BW is subsidised for this flight?

Here is the article:

http://www.newsday.co.tt/businessday/0,156545.html

GUYAIR707

Quoting GUYAIR707 (Reply 126): Very happy to see 9Y-ANU back in service. It was down for quite a while. Does anyone know, or care to say if TJR and TJS are still with BW? Are there any other a/c undergoing long maintenance (C-Check)?

ANU had an engine switch with SLU, which is why she was down for a much longer time, SLU is now C-Checks for 30 days. TJS and TJR are still here and will stay for a while longer.

Quoting GUYAIR707 (Reply 126): Pilots arriving at GEO will be happy to know that the ILS apparently has been installed:

Nice finally its serviceable, the pilots at CAL will be very happy at that.

Quoting GUYAIR707 (Reply 127): The article goes on to say the TAB-JFK service has very sparse loads, 33 pax off peak and 45 peak. Since this flight originates in POS couldn't they feed some pax on that flight and reduce one nonstop POS-JFK, or it is better not to mess with something that works?? Does anyone know whether BW is subsidised for this flight?

Leave well enough alone, lol, the TAB flights are filled with pax from POS anyways. Unless there is a significant tourism plan for TAB and marketed to the US, the loads will remain low. No the flights are no subsidized.

Quoting caribbean484 (Reply 128):

Thanks for the response.

GUYAIR707

The whole "Air Jamaica is gone and Jamaicans will kick out BW" tirade continues, huh? LOL!!

Nice to hear of B6 increasing service to UVF to daily during the summer! If the government of St. Lucia can secure United, that would be amazing! Not sure, however, which would be a better option between IAH and EWR.

What happened to the investigation of the BW overrun in Guyana? Is it still ongoing?

Quoting westindian425 (Reply 130): The whole "Air Jamaica is gone and Jamaicans will kick out BW" tirade continues, huh? LOL!!

Honestly the older I am getting the less I want to have these stupid and petty debates, let history and time determine the failure or success of the ventures. Let there be lessons learnt.

Quoting westindian425 (Reply 130): Nice to hear of B6 increasing service to UVF to daily during the summer! If the government of St. Lucia can secure United, that would be amazing! Not sure, however, which would be a better option between IAH and EWR.

EWR has multiple connections, however B6 also has more or less the same out of JFK, not sure UA would want to do this on a regular basis.

Quoting westindian425 (Reply 130): What happened to the investigation of the BW overrun in Guyana? Is it still ongoing?

Still ongoing, there was a preliminary report a couple weeks ago.

Quoting caribbean484 (Reply 128): Leave well enough alone, lol, the TAB flights are filled with pax from POS anyways. Unless there is a significant tourism plan for TAB and marketed to the US, the loads will remain low. No the flights are no subsidized.

I got it! (LOL) How come Tobago is not marketed to the US? Seems like a wonderful destination. Since T&T has the resources how come tourism isn't a bigger $$ earner. Is it just government policies or something else. BW would benefit so much more.

IMO GORTT should invest and create a destination in POS and TAB (well TAB is already a destination so maybe just POS) to attract not just VFR but real tourists. Oil money will only be around so long. Then market both POS and TAB. It seems like such an opportunity. Then use POS as an intransit point between countries south and countries north, thereby expanding BW. It works for DXB and EK, also works for SIN and SQ.

Maybe too much to ask for...

GUYAIR707

Quoting GUYAIR707 (Reply 132): Then use POS as an intransit point between countries south and countries north, thereby expanding BW. It works for DXB and EK, also works for SIN and SQ.

Need to go that far to compare what lots of people would like to see BW turned into? When there is an airline based 1234mi west of POS doing a similar thing with much less resources (and limited ones too), a narrow-body-aircraft fleet, operating from an airport always small for them and a country where qualified workforce which can't keep with the airline growth..

Quoting caribbean484 (Reply 131): EWR has multiple connections, however B6 also has more or less the same out of JFK, not sure UA would want to do this on a regular basis.

IAH does have a better connection to the entire operation. Perhaps they can utilize that, and make EWR seasonal (ala POS). Now, if BW were to join Star Alliance, that may actually benefit UA

Quoting caribbean484 (Reply 131): Still ongoing, there was a preliminary report a couple weeks ago.

I see. I'm interested in knowing their findings.

Quoting GUYAIR707 (Reply 126): Pilots arriving at GEO will be happy to know that the ILS apparently has been installed:

The ILS has been on test since about December last year. Works like a charm. Still awaiting Jepp Charts to be published however. The ILS-DME works upwards of 180NM which is quite impressive as they are known for being low range and not good beyond say 50NM. The DME co-located with the VOR is also back up too. With reference to the article, it is now a known fact the navaids and aerodrome lighting played no part in the CAL overrun.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 133):

Sacrilege, my apologies. Any idea when they will start GEO?

Quoting LimaFoxTango (Reply 135):

That is great news, finally the GOG has done this. There was a complaint that there was some kind of redundant system that the GOG didn't bother to install because of costs. However, all in all much safer, great news for everyone.

A few years ago there was a near mid air collision between BW and DL save the quick actions of the pilots. Do you know if anything was installed to keep a/c safely apart over Guyana or close to GEO?

Based on the outcome of Nov 2011 elections it seems the expansion of GEO may be in jeopardy.

GUYAIR707

[Edited 2012-03-08 18:26:06]

Quoting GUYAIR707 (Reply 136): Any idea when they will start GEO?

Ask Belize-an Yellowtail, he doesn't know but knows how one should approach CM and start talks with them.
Be sure that any time I can, I push for GEO (and other Caribbean destinations including PBM) to get into CM network soon as I believe give those CM and passengers will come.

Now a TAB related question, How come TAB is almost unknown in Latinamerica? Surely it's not like Jamaica northern coast or CUR/AUA and Venezuelans are no longer the big leisure traveller they once were but it seems TAB tourist promoters lack lots of motivation or just don't believe in their product.

TAB still smells like fresh for me, I really had a good time there! CAL flights both on inbound and outbound are often late! the airport is sooo small I wonder how they handle VS and the other widebodies.... GOVTT should promote it a little more!

Quoting guyanam (Reply 125): So what do you think of Mr Lalor's comments? Clearly more important than whether people think CAL/AJ has pretty planes or not?

The livery comment was in reply to the comment you made about people not being able to see the planes theyre going on. Anyway from the article you posted, it seems to support your claims somewhat, and I say somewhat because it doesnt state anywhere in the article the CURRENT Jamaican market share percentage and only the what the market share was in 2010 :

Quote: Up to the time of the takeover of Air Jamaica by Caribbean Airlines in 2010, the airline catered for 60 percent of the Jamaican market

If you know the current market share percentage please do post it.

Quoting westindian425 (Reply 130): The whole "Air Jamaica is gone and Jamaicans will kick out BW" tirade continues, huh? LOL!!

Quoting caribbean484 (Reply 131): Honestly the older I am getting the less I want to have these stupid and petty debates, let history and time determine the failure or success of the ventures. Let there be lessons learnt.

I agree with both of you, this has gone on long enough IMO. Like I said in my previous posts, time will tell whether CAL/AJ will fail or succeed, and we need to move on from this.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 125): CAL has purple quite prominent, not a color that most associate with happy thoughts.

As 817Dreamliiner said, you have your opinion and I have mine. However, you should not act as if your opinion is the only valid opinion.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 125): Reliable service, airfares, friendly ground and cabin service, these are what gets people to select an airline.

Again, let's leave this to your opinion. With your way of thinking airlines are better off by using all-white liveries with no logos, right?

A388

Quoting caribbean484 (Reply 131): Honestly the older I am getting the less I want to have these stupid and petty debates, let history and time determine the failure or success of the ventures. Let there be lessons learnt.

I agree with you completely and I usually also do that. They are indeed stupid, baseless and petty debates. Let's leave it to the time.

A388

Just came across this article from a few weeks ago. Granted there are a few inaccuracies in the article, however the overall point is that the route is apparently not doing well. Inaccuracies being the "70 seat plane" and quoting Dash 8 operating cost figures.


7 people on 70-seat plane

By Andre Bagoo on assignment in St Lucia Friday, February 17 2012

CARIBBEAN Airlines Limited (CAL’s) new service to St Lucia is off to a bumpy start and threatens to cost taxpayers millions if the trend continues, according to the findings of a Newsday investigation.

The problems, which have become yet another headache for Caribbean Airlines chairman George Nicholas, come as the State continues to pump millions in subventions into the airline annually.

Flights to St Lucia, which were announced on January 19, began on February 10. Flight BW 434 has two flights daily: one at 1.45pm and another at 2.50pm. The flights land at George FL Charles International Airport, Castries.

http://newsday.co.tt/business/0,155516.html

Quoting LimaFoxTango (Reply 143):

Emphasises my point that BW's chasing RD and EZJet is a dangerous game. Losses of 3 million TT$ ($500,000 USD) per month is no chump change. BW should assess the route before going after them head to head.

EZJet will get some market share with their low fares but they will not be able to sustain the route. I daresay REDjet is in a similar situation. BW should just reinforce their revenue routes and improve their service on those routes, or else they will go down with the competition.

Marketing 101 - don't compete with price if you cannot sustain the losses.

GUYAIR707

Quoting andrefranca (Reply 138):

Lovely pics, make me wish I was there instead of in New York. I agree, Tobago should be promoted more, I hear the diving is superb.

GUYAIR707

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 137): Ask Belize-an Yellowtail, he doesn't know but knows how one should approach CM and start talks with them.

For a fee of course. I only work for free for Belize     

Quoting LimaFoxTango (Reply 143):

The writer miss a big point, the flight he was on was going into UVF while the flights coming down to POS were sold out long before, during the carnival season. This was nothing short of a highly inaccurate piece once again by our favorite Newspaper.

Quoting A388 (Reply 141):

  

Quoting andrefranca (Reply 138):

Quoting GUYAIR707 (Reply 145): I agree, Tobago should be promoted more, I hear the diving is superb.

Tobago like any other island has a lot to offer, however the Government's policies are to the Energy sector mostly while Tourism decreases on the Island. I mentioned that we have a bunch of jokers running the country with no plan for this sector.

I don't speak french, and had it translated from google:

Air Caribbean promises 100 free tickets for the poor

Air Caribbean announced that it will make available in ultramarine great social distress a hundred free tickets A / R between the mainland and the West Indies or Guyana. The transaction is subject to a partnership, which The agreement was signed this morning between Air Caribbean ministerial delegation for equal opportunities of the French Overseas, and the association's Cabin Social Caribbean. It is the association which will be responsible for selecting beneficiaries, ultramarine Caribbean and Guyanese living in the metropolis, and transmit their coordinates to the company.
http://www.pros-du-tourisme.com/actu...ets-gratuits-pour-les-demunis.html

Quoting caribbean484 (Reply 147): The writer miss a big point, the flight he was on was going into UVF while the flights coming down to POS were sold out long before, during the carnival season. This was nothing short of a highly inaccurate piece once again by our favorite Newspaper.

Happens all the time in the Guyana press. It did seem a little strange that BW would make such a big blunder. I still hold firm they should be careful with these direct head to head flights.

GUYAIR707

Quoting caribbean484 (Reply 149):

I may be wrong but I do believe they are referring to persons in French Guiana not Guyana. The French usually refer to French Guiana (Guyane francaise) as just Guyane shortening the name. Guyane when translated is Guyana, but they mean French Guiana.

GUYAIR707