DeltaRules
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CMH Pursuing VX, AS, Trans-Atlantic Service

Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:33 am

An article in The Columbus Dispatch today talked about cities not served directly from CMH, providing stats as to the biggest destinations without non-stop service from Columbus (though Houston has service with CO/UA, but is listed). Among them are SFO (118 pax/day) and SEA (99 pax/day), which has the airport actively pursuing Virgin America for service to SFO, as well as Alaska for "direct West Coast flights". Incentives of $50-75K (depending on number of daily passengers), plus a one-time $75K bonus, are being offered to anyone that fills the domestic gaps, as well as bonuses if anyone comes in and grows an existing market out of CMH.

Also, the airport is seeking trans-Atlantic service, which could come in "the spring or summer of 2013" according to the VP of business development for the airport authority. London or Paris are the most likely targets, with $800K-$1.1M incentives from the airport and more from local businesses and various government entities being dangled much like at PIT.

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stor...2/26/cant-get-there-from-here.html

Anybody see VX or AS coming to CMH in the near future? VX may be a bit small at this point, but AS has added/will add AUS, STL, and MCI in recent memory. And who might the carrier willing to take on CMH-LHR/LGW or CMH-CDG/ORY be? Paris would sound like a DL idea given the PIT and RDU service they've played with.

[Edited 2012-02-26 17:33:45]
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
SANFan
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RE: CMH Pursuing VX, AS, Trans-Atlantic Service

Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:33 am

Sorry, but those numbers don't sound to me like anything that will get much interest from anybody. About 100 people a day is nothing much really, and the incentives offered by CMH are pretty much the same as every other airport offers. So the Port has put themselves in the ballpark with a level playing field, but without healthy traffic volume, it doesn't look too good.

I'd also say that any intercontinental service is not in the cards unless the city, or state, or private industry does come up with a subsidy of large proportions. Those numbers are close to nothing.

CMH certainly might be on AS's list, but I'd guess it isn't very high on that list. Again, 100 PDEW, even with connecting pax over SEA, is pretty slim. And I would guess that CMH is not real high on VX's list either. And remember, with VX it's a two-fer -- they will start SFO and LAX, not just one of those 2 hubs...

Finally, there are probably at least a dozen other U.S. cities that are also "actively pursuing" airlines along with CMH. We see this same sort of article coming out of many other cities all the time. Usually, unless the market is there, nothing much results from the airports' efforts.

That being said, good luck to Columbus in their pursuit!

bb
 
boeing773er
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RE: CMH Pursuing VX, AS, Trans-Atlantic Service

Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:47 am

I think CMH needs to think about getting a mainline carrier(other than Southwest) in to their airport instead of worrying about getting service to LHR or CDG.

It would be nice, but I don't think the market would be big enough for the airline to support trans-atlantic flight.

The only way I would see this happening is if AA would operate a LHR flight, with great connections om BA they could pull it off. But I doubt this happening because there are only 54 daily passengers wanting the flight.

I could see UA taking an SFO flight though, on an A319 they could pull it off. But I don't think they want UA.

I do wish them luck on this challenging task......
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B4REAL
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RE: CMH Pursuing VX, AS, Trans-Atlantic Service

Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:02 am

I live in CMH and as a frequent traveller I'd likely see the DL LAX-CMH route go daily (currently 4x weekly, seasonally I believe). That's the most likely way for this to take off. Maybe UA add SFO-CMH, that would work. I fly frequently to the Bay area and it is tough from here. Lastly, AS SEA-CMH has a chance; but least likely of these three.

As for International routes, gee. No way. If the 757 or 739 could do CMH-AMS or CMH-CDG, *maybe*, like they'd try it. Then it would stop.
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ssublyme
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RE: CMH Pursuing VX, AS, Trans-Atlantic Service

Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:09 am

With VX in the top 7 of 10 largest cities in US and Columbus at #15 it might not be far off, atleast in the eyes of CMH.
 
izbtmnhd
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RE: CMH Pursuing VX, AS, Trans-Atlantic Service

Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:12 am

Quoting ssublyme (Reply 4):

Columbus is a large city but not a large metro.
 
boslax
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RE: CMH Pursuing VX, AS, Trans-Atlantic Service

Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:19 am

With fuel costs rising once agian, airports across the U.S. should spend their marketing/air service development budgets on making sure they keep the service they have.
 
cargolex
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RE: CMH Pursuing VX, AS, Trans-Atlantic Service

Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:25 am

Republic pulled the E190 off of MCI-SEA in the recent past, and, I believe (I could be wrong) that there is no direct link now between SEA and MCI. I don't mention MCI because of that airport's relevance, although that market might be similar to CMH, but because of the equipment.

AC runs an E190 YYZ-SEA, and such an arrangement with an F9/Republic E190 could, maybe (and it's a big maybe) be a way to have a reliable load factor between CMH and SEA. Problem is, AS doesn't have an E190, B6 wouldn't be interested, and Republic and F9 are very up in the air. I'll go right ahead and admit that such a plan would be a real long shot. But I'd see F9 doing it before VX or AS.
 
ASFlyer
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RE: CMH Pursuing VX, AS, Trans-Atlantic Service

Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:43 am

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 7):
Republic pulled the E190 off of MCI-SEA in the recent past, and, I believe (I could be wrong) that there is no direct link now between SEA and MCI. I don't mention MCI because of that airport's relevance, although that market might be similar to CMH, but because of the equipment.

AC runs an E190 YYZ-SEA, and such an arrangement with an F9/Republic E190 could, maybe (and it's a big maybe) be a way to have a reliable load factor between CMH and SEA. Problem is, AS doesn't have an E190, B6 wouldn't be interested, and Republic and F9 are very up in the air. I'll go right ahead and admit that such a plan would be a real long shot. But I'd see F9 doing it before VX or AS.

Alaska is starting nonstop SEA-MCI flights in March on a 737-800. I'm not saying I think CMH is likely for AS but if they're adding the likes of AUS, STL and MCI then why not? By the way, AUS is a very hard flight to get a seat on if you're non-revving. Who would have thought? Well, Alaska apparently. I wonder what the market between CMH-PDX/ANC/YVR/GEG... is. Obviously those cities won't support non-stop service at this time but could Alaska bump up that 99 PDEW figure with connections to their west coast network?
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: CMH Pursuing VX, AS, Trans-Atlantic Service

Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:09 am

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 8):
Alaska is starting nonstop SEA-MCI flights in March

And I believe WN decided to reinstate their SEA-MCI flight as well.

-Dave
-Dave
 
ATAIndy
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RE: CMH Pursuing VX, AS, Trans-Atlantic Service

Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:33 am

Quoting SANFan (Reply 1):
Finally, there are probably at least a dozen other U.S. cities that are also "actively pursuing" airlines along with CMH. We see this same sort of article coming out of many other cities all the time. Usually, unless the market is there, nothing much results from the airports' efforts.

I can vouch for IND as being one of those airports. The airport administration thought new flights would drop in once the midfield terminal was complete, but here we are three years later with nothing but reductions. IND, being just down the road from CMH along I-70 has also gone after SEA, SFO, and AMS/LHR service. Currently they have none of these destinations though so don't hold your breath CMH. SFO and SEA used to be non-stop seasonal flights on FL and NW respectively.

Of all the routes listed on the map in the linked article, IND had all but SNA and SAN as non-stops back when NW had IND as a focus city. Following Delta's takeover all have been discontinued except for SLC. The traffic just isn't there when airlines can use the hub and spoke method. Best of luck to CMH if they can pull it off without getting an airline to set up a focus city.

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 8):
By the way, AUS is a very hard flight to get a seat on if you're non-revving.

NW used to operate IND-AUS and it too apparently was always full. This was operated by a CRJ though.
Boiler up! - Next flights: IND-MIA, MIA-IND
 
SANFan
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RE: CMH Pursuing VX, AS, Trans-Atlantic Service

Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:26 am

Even though the OP didn't mention SAN -- although the article did, pointing out that it has the second largest PDEW figure, just a bit behind SFO -- I would love to see a nonstop between here and CMH. (The only n/s in the past has been the 'Bus; we did not have a n/s when HP had a hub in Ohio.) But again, with a PDEW of 106 (from the article), I'm afraid it's not at all likely. Further, there would be no connecting opportunities over SAN, as there would be at SFO and SEA...

Let's face it. The reason there are not nonstops today from CMH to these mentioned cities is precisely because there is not the market for them. The cities that have nonstops are obviously successful and profitable for the cx (otherwise they would be gone) and that is because there are enough pax to fill the planes. (And of course some of those planes are small. The problem with the west coast -- SAN, SFO and SEA -- from CMH is that you can't really use an RJ but probably need something with well over 100 seats. Non-daily service is an option but that can be kind of a tough sell.)

Despite these facts, airports want (and need) more airlines and more flights/routes to help pay the bills and attract more pax to the airport. Most larger airports these days hire people who's only job is to bring in new airlines (along with keeping the airlines they have!) Thus we see more and more of these stories that are trying to point out that those people are trying to do their jobs. Unfortunately, the results of all these efforts are usually not so good.

bb
 
ASFlyer
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RE: CMH Pursuing VX, AS, Trans-Atlantic Service

Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:40 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 9):
And I believe WN decided to reinstate their SEA-MCI flight as well.

I think it was only a seasonal reduction to begin with and a seasonal add for the summer.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: CMH Pursuing VX, AS, Trans-Atlantic Service

Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:46 am

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 12):
I think it was only a seasonal reduction to begin with and a seasonal add for the summer.

That may be true - not sure myself.

-Dave
-Dave
 
ORDJOE
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RE: CMH Pursuing VX, AS, Trans-Atlantic Service

Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:14 pm

I would agree this money would be better spent keeping what they have versus sending out planes half full to destinations in sustainable without these give aways.

I suppose a 737 to LAX or SFO could get filled. if they wanted to TATL, then maybe a 757 to London?
 
ContnlEliteCMH
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RE: CMH Pursuing VX, AS, Trans-Atlantic Service

Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:30 pm

Quoting SANFan (Reply 11):
Despite these facts, airports want (and need) more airlines and more flights/routes to help pay the bills and attract more pax to the airport.

I have always doubted that if routes are offered, demand to fly will be stimulated. Since driving to SAN/SFO/SEA/PDX etc. is an unattractive option, either you want to go to these destinations by air or you don't, and I doubt that the average leisure flier would suddenly say "Hey, let's take a vacation to San Diego because we don't have to transfer in Houston!" Alternately, I doubt most people say "You know, I would have taken a trip to San Diego instead of driving to Nashville, but I had to connect in Houston so I decided to skip the whole affair!"

If adding direct service on these routes lowered the price, then *perhaps* more people would fly since price is oftenthe only criterion by which fliers make a decision. I am severely skeptical that the price of directl flights would be lower than the current connection offerings.

I think the notion that more routes = more fliers is something that airport managers tell themselves, but I doubt it's true, especially in a place like the city in which I've lived for 22.5 years. The CRAA is already spending buku bucks on what I think are completely unnecessary improvements. Throwing more money to subsidize an airline or two for routes that won't stimulate much demand is just more of the same waste.
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threeifbyair
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RE: CMH Pursuing VX, AS, Trans-Atlantic Service

Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:33 pm

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 8):
Alaska is starting nonstop SEA-MCI flights in March on a 737-800. I'm not saying I think CMH is likely for AS but if they're adding the likes of AUS, STL and MCI then why not? By the way, AUS is a very hard flight to get a seat on if you're non-revving. Who would have thought? Well, Alaska apparently. I wonder what the market between CMH-PDX/ANC/YVR/GEG... is. Obviously those cities won't support non-stop service at this time but could Alaska bump up that 99 PDEW figure with connections to their west coast network?

I thought AUS would be very successful - so did many others. The tech sector in AUS is quite large. SEA-SAT (a decent ly-sized market in its own right) lacks nonstop service, which likely adds to traffic on SEA-AUS.

The key for AS is opportunity cost. Perhaps SEA-CMH could be profitable, but AS has to evaluate all growth options for a new aircraft (open a new station, start a new route between existing stations, or increase frequency on an existing route). As the A.net community has discussed in previous threads, AS has several other cities that could be good options. There is still some room in Hawaii. PIT, IND, RDU, TPA, SAT, MSY, etc. all lack nonstop flights to SEA.
 
44k
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RE: CMH Pursuing VX, AS, Trans-Atlantic Service

Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:49 pm

As being someone who works @ CMH this is exciting news. I can certainly see a possibility of AS taking up CMHSEA service and AA/MQ being the partner airline doing the ground handling.

As for TATL service, the article implies that the port authority is fairly confident that it will happen. However, I have been hearing these rumours for years and nothing happened yet. LHR seems to be the most likely candidate, based on passenger demand, so I will continue to dream of AA CMHLHR 757 service one day...
 
SouthernDC9
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RE: CMH Pursuing VX, AS, Trans-Atlantic Service

Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:58 pm

Oh dear heavens what is the world coming to when the overbooked-CRJ's-worth of passengers flying CMH-LHR each day have to change planes somewhere? And even if there was a non-stop flight, I would think you'd have to assume that at least some of those passengers would still choose a connecting flight if they had status on another carrier (or if the price was better).

I mean, I know every city has to look out for its own interests and promote itself, but this strikes me as a bit silly...
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peanuts
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RE: CMH Pursuing VX, AS, Trans-Atlantic Service

Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:16 pm

CMH VP of Business Development should be fired. All he is doing with this "int'l service" talk is pacifying his audience. He is trying to make his job appear "legit" with this utter nonsense. "Look at me, Look at me, look what I'm trying to do for us"

Fuel being this high and climbing? Forget it.
I'd hope he spends most his time doing realistic business stuff, on the taxpayers dime. Good grief.
 
flyguy89
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RE: CMH Pursuing VX, AS, Trans-Atlantic Service

Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:24 pm

Quoting DeltaRules (Thread starter):
And who might the carrier willing to take on CMH-LHR/LGW or CMH-CDG/ORY be?

I don't really see a possibility of TATL service out of CMH. If CLE couldn't hack it to LON or CDG with a hub to prop them up, I seriously doubt there's any possibility of it happening to CMH. While not an Ohio airport, CVG is really the only airport in the area that could/does support TATL flights due to the Cincinnati area business community's strong TATL travel demand.
 
steeler83
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RE: CMH Pursuing VX, AS, Trans-Atlantic Service

Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:48 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 20):
While not an Ohio airport, CVG is really the only airport in the area that could/does support TATL flights due to the Cincinnati area business community's strong TATL travel demand.

Throw in PIT as well, with some of its catchment serving parts of Eastern Ohio. At least there is enough demand here for seasonal TATL service.

Given that, yeah, I doubt there's enough demand out of CMH for tatl service or for the routes listed above...
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flyinryan99
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RE: CMH Pursuing VX, AS, Trans-Atlantic Service

Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:49 pm

Ok...since Jose hasn't thrown his 2 cents in yet, I will get mine in before him.  

The Columbus area has a lot going for it and it will continue to grow. Companies are relocating there and adding jobs there. Columbus has deep ties to London via the insurance industry and has Asian ties with some tech firms and also a large Honda plant in Marysville. Don't forget, there are two very accredited and rather large universities with international ties that primarily use that airport.

I personally think CMH-SFO would be my first choice - probably on a UA 737-800 or a UA A320. UA does a great job of flowing planes to where they need to be when they need to be. I would think this service would be a no brainer in the next year or two when they finally get the merger completed and start to look at new opportunities.

I don't know much about the CMH-SEA market. I think it would be another good route to at least attempt. Getting AS into Ohio would be an awesome sight. With a strong AA frequent flier base in CMH, might be a strength.

CMH-LHR would probably be marginal, unless there were subsidies or guarantees from the community itself. There are other ties other then the insurance industry - fashion. Of course, Limited does have their own BBJ   If anyone were to try it, I would think AA would be it and I wouldn't even mind seeing it 4x weekly, why would it need to be daily if you have a plethora of connections through other hubs?

CMH has a lot going for it, that's for sure, but I don't think they will see much in the way of expansion of routes for at least a year or two. I would suggest maybe getting IAH, DEN, and MIA to all mainline if the new cities don't pan out.
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: CMH Pursuing VX, AS, Trans-Atlantic Service

Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:56 pm

Quoting threeifbyair (Reply 16):
The key for AS is opportunity cost. Perhaps SEA-CMH could be profitable, but AS has to evaluate all growth options for a new aircraft (open a new station, start a new route between existing stations, or increase frequency on an existing route). As the A.net community has discussed in previous threads, AS has several other cities that could be good options. There is still some room in Hawaii. PIT, IND, RDU, TPA, SAT, MSY, etc. all lack nonstop flights to SEA.

As you know there have been other threads speculating on AS's next destinations from SEA. It's always hard to predict. I don't think anyone keeled over in shock when AS announced PHL, but I never would have guessed MCI. Nor would I have expected some other of their new routes which seem to be doing well (SMF-GDL; SJC-LIH; BLI-HNL, SEA-FLL, etc).

Moral of the story is that, while CMH is not highest on my speculative list of AS's next destination from SEA, I sure wouldn't rule it out either based on recent history. We shall see.
 
bjorn14
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RE: CMH Pursuing VX, AS, Trans-Atlantic Service

Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:02 pm

Quoting DeltaRules (Thread starter):
Also, the airport is seeking trans-Atlantic service, which could come in "the spring or summer of 2013" according to the VP of business development for the airport authority
Quoting Boeing773ER (Reply 2):
It would be nice, but I don't think the market would be big enough for the airline to support trans-atlantic flight.
Quoting ORDJOE (Reply 14):
if they wanted to TATL, then maybe a 757 to London?

Almost all pax would be O&D since CHM isn't even a focus city for any airline. Maybe I can lease a A319LR and take their money.

Quoting ContnlEliteCMH (Reply 15):
I am severely skeptical that the price of directl flights would be lower than the current connection offerings.

   Most n/s are more expensive than connex.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
joeman
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RE: CMH Pursuing VX, AS, Trans-Atlantic Service

Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:35 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 20):
If CLE couldn't hack it to LON or CDG with a hub to prop them up, I seriously doubt there's any possibility of it happening to CMH.

A lot more to that story than not being able to hack it with a so called hub to prop them up.....
 
Indy
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RE: CMH Pursuing VX, AS, Trans-Atlantic Service

Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:09 am

Quoting DeltaRules (Thread starter):
London or Paris are the most likely targets, with $800K-$1.1M incentives from the airport and more from local businesses and various government entities being dangled much like at PIT.

$800k to $1.1M? That is far from what PIT offered. If memory serves me correct the incentives to DL were something like $9 mil. The dollar amounts referenced for the domestic and international routes just don't seem all that serious. If I had a guess I'd say they are about 1/10th of what they need to be to get serious interest from an airline.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
izbtmnhd
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RE: CMH Pursuing VX, AS, Trans-Atlantic Service

Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:50 am

Ohio is an underserved TATL area as a whole. If CMH can market a LHR flight to either NE Ohio or SW Ohio businesses effectively they should be able to pull it off. Subsidy needs to higher though until the flight can get legs.

Quoting steeler83 (Reply 21):

Let's be honest, PIT-CDG is marketed all over NE Ohio. Clearly the pax aren't just from the Pittsburgh area or there would be no need for adverts on Cleveland.com and Ohio.com. Isn't PIT struggling to maintain MKE service?!

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 20):

CLE O&D at 75% + 2 mil at CAK at 95+%. But the "hub" props up service. OK. Whatever.
 
flyguy89
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RE: CMH Pursuing VX, AS, Trans-Atlantic Service

Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:33 am

Quote:
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 20): If CLE couldn't hack it to LON or CDG with a hub to prop them up, I seriously doubt there's any possibility of it happening to CMH.

A lot more to that story than not being able to hack it with a so called hub to prop them up.....


That may be so but it still doesn't belie the fact the flights are no longer there with no plans to return. CLE would get TATL service before CMH IMHO, so if larger CLE isn't getting any TATL love right now even with a hub operation, I doubt CMH will.

Quote:
CLE O&D at 75%


Those arent the numbers for the UA hub operation.

Quote:
But the "hub" props up service. OK. Whatever.


Obviously neither the hub nor O&D supported the service as CLE no longer has anymore TATL flights.
 
izbtmnhd
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RE: CMH Pursuing VX, AS, Trans-Atlantic Service

Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:39 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 28):
That may be so but it still doesn't belie the fact the flights are no longer there with no plans to return. CLE would get TATL service before CMH IMHO, so if larger CLE isn't getting any TATL love right now even with a hub operation, I doubt CMH will.

I'm getting tired of Pittsburgh and Cincinnati people trying to use Cleveland as crutch to prop their operations up especially on a thread about proposed TATL service to CMH.

CLE lost CDG because CO left Skyteam. CLE lost LHR because of slot issues. Now there are 8 UA hubs and CLE is hemmed between EWR, ORD and IAD. If you haven't noticed even DEN lost LHR service. While some of this can be blamed on the biz community there's a lot more to this than you seem to want to admit. Of course you've effectively steered this thread away from CMH in order to point out the "primacy" of CVG economy because of its daily CDG flight. What's not pointed out is that DL and UA have different goals on how they want to handle TATL service. Joeman is right, it's a broader issue, especially in a post-merger world.

Steering this back to CMH, the area could certainly start TATL if they market more than the local region. PIT is doing the same thing right now. With no TATL service for the 4.5 mil that live in NE Ohio, I think, again marketed effectively, CMH folks could pull it off. Of course this also depends on the future operations of UA at CLE.

You'd think folks in the region want to work together to keep TATL in Ohio. It's embarssing to me that the 7th largest state in the US has no TATL service. Instead of throwing Cleveland and Columbus "under the bus" to show off Cincinnati, it would be better to point out how to get service back into Ohio, IMHO. Working together serves Cincy too becuase CDG is clearly in a precarious position. It's going to take a regional approach.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 28):
Those arent the numbers for the UA hub operation.

It's already been discussed. Figured at around 60%. And that's with healthy LCC competition at CLE and CAK. It's an O&D driven "hub", always has been.
 
flyguy89
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RE: CMH Pursuing VX, AS, Trans-Atlantic Service

Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:17 pm

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 29):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 28):
That may be so but it still doesn't belie the fact the flights are no longer there with no plans to return. CLE would get TATL service before CMH IMHO, so if larger CLE isn't getting any TATL love right now even with a hub operation, I doubt CMH will.

I'm getting tired of Pittsburgh and Cincinnati people trying to use Cleveland as crutch to prop their operations up especially on a thread about proposed TATL service to CMH.

This has nothing to do with the point I was trying to make or trying to flourish any kind of "primacy", you're being way too thin-skinned about the issue.

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 29):

CLE lost CDG because CO left Skyteam. CLE lost LHR because of slot issues.

Sure, but nothing is stopping them from launching FRA if they wanted as it's within 757 range.

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 29):
If you haven't noticed even DEN lost LHR service.

DEN lost service because incumbent DEN-LHR carrier BA owns the market and sends 744's in at peak travel times.

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 29):

Steering this back to CMH, the area could certainly start TATL if they market more than the local region.

I'm sorry but I just severely doubt it, while Columbus is growing, it still has the smallest metro population of the three C's. The market is also fragmented among the current airlines, competing airports flank CMH, and the city itself doesn't generate a whole lot of premium traffic to Europe. As I stated earlier, Cleveland is a better candidate for TATL service than CMH in almost every metric, and if nothing is happening on that front, I doubt an even smaller non-hub city like Columbus would get flights short of literally paying for it.

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 29):
PIT is doing the same thing right now.

...and how's that working out with a less-than-daily seasonal service to CDG from a city with 500k more people than Columbus, if anything the PIT example further disproves the proposition of TATL at CMH.

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 29):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 28):
Those arent the numbers for the UA hub operation.

It's already been discussed. Figured at around 60%. And that's with healthy LCC competition at CLE and CAK. It's an O&D driven "hub", always has been.

I remember the discussion and while I can easily believe that CLE puts forth healthy O&D numbers, the conclusion was that nobody knew the statistical O&D v. Connecting pax breakdown for UA's hub operation.
 
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RE: CMH Pursuing VX, AS, Trans-Atlantic Service

Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:41 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 30):

I'm not being "thin skinned" just noticing the same patterns watching a.net over the past 10+ years. The issue of TATL in NE Ohio is a more complex issue than the local biz community support and the CLE "hub" that proped it up, using your words.

My overall point is that the area has to think regionally in order to make TATL work. You want to shoot down the idea before CMH gets started on it. How constructive is that?

[Edited 2012-02-28 06:42:40]
 
lhcvg
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RE: CMH Pursuing VX, AS, Trans-Atlantic Service

Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:20 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 30):
I'm sorry but I just severely doubt it, while Columbus is growing, it still has the smallest metro population of the three C's. The market is also fragmented among the current airlines, competing airports flank CMH, and the city itself doesn't generate a whole lot of premium traffic to Europe. As I stated earlier, Cleveland is a better candidate for TATL service than CMH in almost every metric, and if nothing is happening on that front, I doubt an even smaller non-hub city like Columbus would get flights short of literally paying for it.

One caveat there - doesn't CMH have a rather large catchment area though? Clearly the Columbus MSA is smaller than both Cleveland and Cincinnati. However, I tend to think that in every direction save for West (due to DAY) and SW (past Wilmington, possibly Lebanon, CVG and DAY take on), the catchment area extends rather far. Granted, that isn't covering densely populated areas, but I'd guess that there is still a respectable population in the CMH catchment area overall. Not saying that makes TATL viable as-is, but I think CMH catchment population is larger than Columbus metro.
 
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RE: CMH Pursuing VX, AS, Trans-Atlantic Service

Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:31 pm

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 31):
My overall point is that the area has to think regionally in order to make TATL work.

That's all well and fine except that it's a flimsy strategy given that a non-stop would be more expensive than connecting options. The overlaps in catchment areas for airports in this region are just too extensive to pin hopes on a "regional" strategy. In either case, it's essential for there to be a strong, lucrative base of flyers in the city to make the flight work which Columbus just doesn't have right now.

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 31):
You want to shoot down the idea before CMH gets started on it. How constructive is that?

There's a difference between being constructive/optimistic and realistic. Chasing down flights that, for all intents and purposes, will never materialize is not realistic. There are a dozen other cities larger than CMH that have a better case for TATL flights such as IND, CLE, BDL, RDU...etc. Ultimately however, city and state governments need to realize that if they want or want more TATL service, they need to grow the region, bring in the business, grow the population, grow the international ties...etc, then the flights will come.

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 32):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 30):
I'm sorry but I just severely doubt it, while Columbus is growing, it still has the smallest metro population of the three C's. The market is also fragmented among the current airlines, competing airports flank CMH, and the city itself doesn't generate a whole lot of premium traffic to Europe. As I stated earlier, Cleveland is a better candidate for TATL service than CMH in almost every metric, and if nothing is happening on that front, I doubt an even smaller non-hub city like Columbus would get flights short of literally paying for it.

One caveat there - doesn't CMH have a rather large catchment area though?

As I touched on above, there is so much overlap in catchment areas in the tri-state region that it's difficult for any airport to claim primacy in a particular region. CMH is surrounded by CAK, CLE, DAY, CVG, and IND...if the fares are decent enough, people in CMH's catchment area will just as soon drive to one of the surrounding airports unlike Salt Lake City for example where the only realistic option is SLC.
 
lhcvg
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RE: CMH Pursuing VX, AS, Trans-Atlantic Service

Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:11 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 33):
if the fares are decent enough, people in CMH's catchment area will just as soon drive to one of the surrounding airports unlike Salt Lake City for example where the only realistic option is SLC.

They will, but doesn't CMH have pretty competitive fares overall? From what I've seen booking DCA-Ohio flights, CMH is always MUCH cheaper than either DAY or CVG, and sometimes half as expensive. I've also noticed CMH being a good bit cheaper on other travel I did while I lived there, as opposed to leaving from CVG or DAY. I'm not denying some may flee like they have from CVG over the years (and the Cincinnati-based WN fliers who drive up to CMH to catch WN flights), but I would think that the number who flee CMH for a lower fare is relatively low. If anything, it has always seemed like CMH tends to steal from DAY and CVG (e.g., folks around Wilmington) except westward along I-70 as you get closer to DAY, for example.
 
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RE: CMH Pursuing VX, AS, Trans-Atlantic Service

Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:53 pm

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 34):
They will, but doesn't CMH have pretty competitive fares overall?

It does, but what does that say about yields in Columbus? The same effect could happen at either of the surrounding airports, it's just a matter of who is the cheapest. Additionally, a non-stop TATL flight would demand a premium from area travelers and make it more expensive than flying out of DAY or IND and connecting which would be the issue with CMH's catchment area.
 
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STT757
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RE: CMH Pursuing VX, AS, Trans-Atlantic Service

Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:05 pm

This is what I don't understand, I thought the Trans-Atlantic Joint venture between AA and BA would allow the carriers to consolidate where they compete head to head. The redundant slots would then be redeployed, this would for instance allow AA to launch routes such as CMH, DTW, IND, CLE, PIT, BDL-LHR with AA 757s.
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point2point
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RE: CMH Pursuing VX, AS, Trans-Atlantic Service

Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:12 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 36):
This is what I don't understand, I thought the Trans-Atlantic Joint venture between AA and BA would allow the carriers to consolidate where they compete head to head. The redundant slots would then be redeployed, this would for instance allow AA to launch routes such as CMH, DTW, IND, CLE, PIT, BDL-LHR with AA 757s.

That's the theory given by the carriers as to why the JVs were going to be good.

However, the reality is that the airlines are going to put the flights where they can get the most premium pax.... BOS, JFK, EWR, IAD, MIA, ORD, SFO, LAX, IAH, DFW...... I think that you get the idea here......


 
 
lhcvg
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RE: CMH Pursuing VX, AS, Trans-Atlantic Service

Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:17 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 35):
It does, but what does that say about yields in Columbus? The same effect could happen at either of the surrounding airports, it's just a matter of who is the cheapest. Additionally, a non-stop TATL flight would demand a premium from area travelers and make it more expensive than flying out of DAY or IND and connecting which would be the issue with CMH's catchment area.

Yields are low indeed. I am personally more optimistic about domestic options than TATL.
 
steeler83
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RE: CMH Pursuing VX, AS, Trans-Atlantic Service

Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:29 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 33):
There's a difference between being constructive/optimistic and realistic. Chasing down flights that, for all intents and purposes, will never materialize is not realistic. There are a dozen other cities larger than CMH that have a better case for TATL flights such as IND, CLE, BDL, RDU...etc. Ultimately however, city and state governments need to realize that if they want or want more TATL service, they need to grow the region, bring in the business, grow the population, grow the international ties...etc, then the flights will come.

  

I could not have worded that better myself if I tried. I'm all for being creative and constructive, but I'm also one to be practical. Just adding flights for the sake of adding flights is really putting the cart before the horse. Establish demand first that would warrant such flights later on. It took me a little while to learn that, but I did...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
MAH4546
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RE: CMH Pursuing VX, AS, Trans-Atlantic Service

Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:44 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 36):

This is what I don't understand, I thought the Trans-Atlantic Joint venture between AA and BA would allow the carriers to consolidate where they compete head to head. The redundant slots would then be redeployed, this would for instance allow AA to launch routes such as CMH, DTW, IND, CLE, PIT, BDL-LHR with AA 757s.


We have yet to see a strong enough travel market, nor a strong enough AA, for this to happen. I absolutely do think AA/BA will pursue this. Summer 2013 might be a good point for this to start - AA will likely be out of BK, trans-Atlantic travel will likely be rebounding and IAG will likely hav completed its acquisition of bmi's slots. I'd start with LHRBDL and LHRDTW.
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September11
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RE: CMH Pursuing VX, AS, Trans-Atlantic Service

Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:06 pm

on side note, a new 3rd runway is under construction at CMH
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PITrules
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RE: CMH Pursuing VX, AS, Trans-Atlantic Service

Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:24 am

The 3rd runway will actually still be a second runway. The current south runway will be turned into a taxiway. The relocated runway will allow for parallel independent IFR arrivals at CMH, in addition to more room for the future terminal.
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