BeachBoy
Topic Author
Posts: 78
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 8:05 am

WP (Island Air) Leasing ATR72s

Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:56 am

Island Air in Hawaii has signed a LOI to lease 3 ATR 72s in 2012 and 3 more in 2013. I'm surprised by the almost doubling of capacity on their planes from 37 seats in their Dash 8s to 60+ in the ATRs. Didn't realize there was that much demand for the routes they serve. Also, with HA creating their OGG hub don't know if there is much more "connecting the dots" left. In addition, as we all know people in Hawaii (myself included) prefer jets.

My only thought is that maybe they have an agreement in place to become a feeder service for AS, DL, UA, AA, etc. who might be unhappy with HA. Speaking to other Hawaii travelers, we kind of feel HA's customer service, while still very good, has gone downhill (they're becoming somewhat arrogant) since they essentially have a monopoly on interisland travel. If the way HA treats their customers is any indication of how they treat their codeshare partners, I'm sure carriers like UA (who was closer to AQ to begin with) would be happy to have an alternative. In addition, tourists probably aren't as discriminating with the type of aircraft they fly.

It'll be interesting to see what WP has planned . . .

http://www.islandair.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/2012-02-23.pdf
 
LimaFoxTango
Posts: 804
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:33 pm

RE: WP (Island Air) Leasing ATR72s

Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:33 am

Another Dash 8 operator gone ATR. When will Bombardier learn...
You are said to be a good pilot when your take-off's equal your landings.
 
User avatar
usxguy
Posts: 999
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:28 pm

RE: WP (Island Air) Leasing ATR72s

Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:44 am

Can the ATRs fly into Kapalua?
xx
 
HNLPointShoot
Posts: 226
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:32 pm

RE: WP (Island Air) Leasing ATR72s

Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:37 am

It'd be nice if WP is able to hack a bigger niche against HA. Go failed miserably in exploiting the vacuum created when AQ went under, which is why HA has a near-monopoly on interisland flights now.
 
BMI727
Posts: 11176
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: WP (Island Air) Leasing ATR72s

Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:53 am

Quoting BeachBoy (Thread starter):
I'm surprised by the almost doubling of capacity on their planes from 37 seats in their Dash 8s to 60+ in the ATRs

Frankly it's a bit silly that they didn't go to the ATR before, especially when they made their ill-fated purchase of Q400s a few years back. Their flights are so short the extra speed of the Dash 8 is basically meaningless and flying a Dash 8 instead of a ATR, or for that matter a 50 or 70 seat jet instead of a turboprop, is more or less throwing money away.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
User avatar
817Dreamliiner
Posts: 3273
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2008 4:12 pm

RE: WP (Island Air) Leasing ATR72s

Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:17 am

Quoting LimaFoxTango (Reply 1):
Another Dash 8 operator gone ATR. When will Bombardier learn...

Well, if they dont make a replacement, this will continue to happen and they will only have themselves to blame
Please let me know... If you know this is the end of the world, Let me know... If you know the truth...
 
vfw614
Posts: 3194
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

RE: WP (Island Air) Leasing ATR72s

Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:23 pm

Quoting LimaFoxTango (Reply 1):
Another Dash 8 operator gone ATR. When will Bombardier learn..

A blow for DHC given that Island Air had decided in favor of the Q400 in the past:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Je89 W.

 
r2rho
Posts: 2475
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:13 pm

RE: WP (Island Air) Leasing ATR72s

Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:23 pm

Good move by Island Air. Many island operators around the world operate ATRs quite succesfully, and now they are also joining the club. And yet another loss for Bombardier...

Quoting BeachBoy (Thread starter):
I'm surprised by the almost doubling of capacity on their planes from 37 seats in their Dash 8s to 60+ in the ATRs.

They can probably operate those ATRs for the same cost, if not less, than their old Dash 8s (100/200 series), which means they get those extra seats "for free".

Quoting BeachBoy (Thread starter):
as we all know people in Hawaii (myself included) prefer jets.

In terms of time there should be no difference to jets. In terms of comfort, it's a pity that they are getting older -212s, the -500 is quite improved and IMO equal or superior in comfort to RJ's.
 
migair54
Posts: 2179
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:24 am

RE: WP (Island Air) Leasing ATR72s

Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:45 pm

Quoting usxguy (Reply 2):

Can the ATRs fly into Kapalua?

Forget about that.... Very short... to do a more or less safe operation at least 1.200-1.400m.... landing is possible... but taking off with such a short runway it will be with a very very big limitation, even if they order some ATR42-500....

Quoting r2rho (Reply 7):
They can probably operate those ATRs for the same cost, if not less, than their old Dash 8s (100/200 series), which means they get those extra seats "for free".

Yes, very true, and they will carry 70 paxs, ATR fuel burn and maintenance is excellent.

Are these planes coming from American Eagle??
 
User avatar
United_fan
Posts: 6383
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2000 11:11 am

RE: WP (Island Air) Leasing ATR72s

Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:05 pm

How do they get them to Hawaii? Ferry tanks or on a ship?
Champagne For My Real Friends,and Real Pain For My Sham Friends
 
bjorn14
Posts: 3553
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:11 pm

RE: WP (Island Air) Leasing ATR72s

Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:54 pm

Quoting HNLPointShoot (Reply 3):
It'd be nice if WP is able to hack a bigger niche against HA.

WP and HA are FFP partners.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
rojo
Posts: 2266
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 6:08 am

RE: WP (Island Air) Leasing ATR72s

Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:07 pm

"Island Air today announced details of a Letter of Intent signed with a Lessor for the introduction of three (3) ATR 72-212 aircraft into their fleet before the end of 2012"

I wonder if these frames will come from American Eagle OW ?
AA just announced the return of most of its ATR72's (210's and 212's) to the lessor...
 
vfw614
Posts: 3194
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

RE: WP (Island Air) Leasing ATR72s

Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:55 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 8):
Forget about that.... Very short... to do a more or less safe operation at least 1.200-1.400m.... landing is possible... but taking off with such a short runway it will be with a very very big limitation, even if they order some ATR42-500....

Well, I remember that EW ordered ATR72-212s in the early 1990s to operate from DTM, which had then, IIRC, a 1050m runway. The original ATR72 could not operate from such a runway, but the "hot & high" -212 could (which is nowadays the standard model). Given the relativetively short distances to HNL and OGG, it will probably not be a major problem. AE operates its ATR72-212s into some Caribbean airports with shortish runways.

[Edited 2012-02-27 15:56:17]
 
migair54
Posts: 2179
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:24 am

RE: WP (Island Air) Leasing ATR72s

Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:42 am

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 12):
Well, I remember that EW ordered ATR72-212s in the early 1990s to operate from DTM, which had then, IIRC, a 1050m runway. The original ATR72 could not operate from such a runway, but the "hot & high" -212 could (which is nowadays the standard model). Given the relativetively short distances to HNL and OGG, it will probably not be a major problem. AE operates its ATR72-212s into some Caribbean airports with shortish runways.

They will never operate an ATR72 in such a short runways, it´s only 900m, the Dash 8-100, can do it easily but not the ATR, even with very few fuel on board. Even with the 42-500 they will struggle to take off with a nice load.

Quoting United_fan (Reply 9):
How do they get them to Hawaii? Ferry tanks or on a ship?

Not by ship, that for sure, the ATR can fly almost around 8:20 mins with 5000kgs of fuel, but even that it´s a bit short maybe, however I have never heard of Any ATR using extra tanks, but maybe this time they have to do....
Actually it will be interesting to see how they do, I hope they make an article or something about it....
Anyone can explain how did did they bring the Dash 8´s???
 
User avatar
RWA380
Posts: 4532
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 10:51 am

RE: WP (Island Air) Leasing ATR72s

Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:00 am

Quoting migair54 (Reply 8):
Forget about that.... Very short... to do a more or less safe operation at least 1.200-1.400m.... landing is possible... but taking off with such a short runway it will be with a very very big limitation, even if they order some ATR42-500

They could do what I've done on Island Air in the past and fly JHM-OGG, then catch HA to HNL, I bet they can use the ATR or they keep a Dash 8 or two to fly JHM, It's been full everytime I've flown into JHM from HNL. It will be nice to see LNY and MKK get an upgauge. I miss Princeville airways, flying into Princeville from HNL.

Quoting HNLPointShoot (Reply 3):
It'd be nice if WP is able to hack a bigger niche against HA.

Yeah doesn't WP fly HA's LNY and MKK passengers?
707, 717, 720, 727-1/2, 737-1/2/3/4/5/7/8/9, 747-1/2/3/4, 757, 767-2/3/4, 777, DC-8-5/6/7, DC-9-1/3/5, MD-80/2/3/7/8, DC-10-10/30/40, MD-11, F-27, F-28, SWM, J31, D38, DH7, DH8, DH4 SD-330, B-146, L-1011-2/500, ATR-42/72, VCV, A-300/310/318/319/320, CR2/7
 
HNLPointShoot
Posts: 226
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:32 pm

RE: WP (Island Air) Leasing ATR72s

Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:42 am

Quoting United_fan (Reply 9):
How do they get them to Hawaii? Ferry tanks or on a ship?
Quoting migair54 (Reply 13):
Anyone can explain how did did they bring the Dash 8´s???

The ATRs will most likely fly in with ferry tanks, the same way HA uses to get their 717s to and from the mainland.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 10):
WP and HA are FFP partners.

True, but that's most likely because WP flies to JHM, MKK, and LNY, airports HA haven't served in years. If WP can put in a few extra flights to other places like OGG and LIH, it'd at least mean there's a meaningful alternative to HA and Go! (and HA would therefore have to put some effort into winning over passengers).
 
vfw614
Posts: 3194
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

RE: WP (Island Air) Leasing ATR72s

Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:45 am

Quoting migair54 (Reply 13):
They will never operate an ATR72 in such a short runways, it´s only 900m,

OK. Did not read your previous post carefully and thought the runway was 1.200 to 1.400m. 900m is indeed to short for the ATR42/72 as 1.050m is already critical. Another example that niche markets will be facing problems in the future because of a gap in the aircraft market between 20 and 50 seats.
 
brains
Posts: 242
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 10:26 am

RE: WP (Island Air) Leasing ATR72s

Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:08 am

Quoting r2rho (Reply 7):
They can probably operate those ATRs for the same cost, if not less, than their old Dash 8s (100/200 series), which means they get those extra seats "for free".

It should be an improvement but dont forget they'll need an extra FA because of the extra seats. Employee overhead is going to increase. I think you're right though, should be a definite improvement.
Brains
 
SurfandSnow
Posts: 1103
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 7:09 am

RE: WP (Island Air) Leasing ATR72s

Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:17 am

This move makes sense to me. Island Air appears to be by far the second-strongest carrier in the interisland market, having maintained a strong niche well behind HA (with its nearly 20 strong fleet of 717s dedicated to the high frequency trunk routes between Hawaii's five major airports) but seemingly well ahead of the flagging go!/Mokulele operation that appears to be on its last legs. It seems that HA, with the recent acquisition of several additional [second-hand] 717s, and now WP, with the acquisition of a fleet type approximately twice as large as their existing Dash 8s, are preparing (or perhaps facilitating) the collapse of the YV CRJ operation.

The ATR 72s should give Island Air a better opportunity to compete on the major routes to/from/between its hubs at HNL and OGG and the competitive major outstations of KOA and LIH. Perhaps this will even afford them an opportunity to return to ITO.

Then there are the smaller interisland markets of MKK, LNY, and JHM. WP is the leading and/or only carrier to these markets. It sounds like WP ultimately intends to replace the entire Dash 8 fleet with the larger ATRs, although they are somewhat elusive about the exact type coming in 2013. Perhaps they will keep a few Dash 8s for these popular/established routes, given the limited demand and/or operational constraints to and from these tiny airports. Or, perhaps they will go for the smaller ATR-42, which is a relatively small increase in capacity and size/weight from the current 37 seat type they currently use. Obviously MKK and LNY will have no issue operationally handling any ATR types, as both airports used to accommodate the HA 717. However, HA pulled out of both airports in 2004 due to extremely low load factors. Given the relatively limited tourist accommodations and small local populations on both islands, the economic case for the ~70 seat ATR-72 may simply not be there. As for JHM, I have no idea what aircraft types can get off that incredibly short 3,000 foot runway. Obviously the close proximity of several major West Maui resorts means filling larger planes can be easily accomplished, but I have to believe the 37-seat Dash 8 may well be the biggest plane that can get in and out of there without massive operating restrictions...

In any case, I hope all goes well with these ambitious growth plan. We saw the prominent early/mid-2000s growth plans of WP (Q400), MW (E-170), and YV (90 seat RJs) all derailed by excessive interisland competition, which resulted in the withdrawal of the larger aircraft types by WP and MW, the collapse of AQ, and the indefinite delay of the larger birds for YV - not to mention the recent retrenchment of their entire operation. That said, Hawaii supported two major HA and AQ interisland operations for decades and there is probably room for a strong second player to break what has almost become an HA monopoly on the major trunk routes.
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
 
vfw614
Posts: 3194
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

RE: WP (Island Air) Leasing ATR72s

Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:32 pm

Given that JHM is "just" a secondary airport on Maui, my gut feeling feeling is that nothing really depends on continuing services from there other than the comfort of some (high end) tourists. It is 30 mile from OGG, pretty much like LIH and Princeville in the past. Nice to have the option for a short-cut, but not overly dramatic if the airport is no longer served by larger aircraft - or am I missing something here? The only relason for WP to keep a sub-fleet just for that airport would be spectacular yields on flights from JMH that easily off-set any costs associated with operating an odd-ball aircraft type.
 
User avatar
usxguy
Posts: 999
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:28 pm

RE: WP (Island Air) Leasing ATR72s

Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:21 pm

I'm still amazed how many travelers to Lahaina/Kaanapali/West Maui actually PREFER the drive

> _
xx
 
AV8AJET
Posts: 1103
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 10:10 am

RE: WP (Island Air) Leasing ATR72s

Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:24 pm

Quoting usxguy (Reply 20):
I'm still amazed how many travelers to Lahaina/Kaanapali/West Maui actually PREFER the drive

I Love the drive! The scenery is spectacular and I always love honking the horn thru the tunnels!!! We don't even notice the time it take to gets to Kaanapali, it's Hawaii after all and we are never in a hurry when there.
"To fly or not to fly there is no question!"
 
HAL
Posts: 1743
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2002 1:38 am

RE: WP (Island Air) Leasing ATR72s

Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:31 am

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 18):
with the acquisition of a fleet type approximately twice as large as their existing Dash 8s, are preparing (or perhaps facilitating) the collapse of the YV CRJ operation.

This would be a lovely piece of irony. The entry of Go! was the final push that sent Aloha into oblivion. Now Island Air (a former subsidiary of Aloha) may provide the final push that sends Go! packing back to the mainland. I wonder who Jonathan Ornstein will point his finger at this time when assigning blame for Go!'s departure?  
Quoting vfw614 (Reply 19):
Given that JHM is "just" a secondary airport on Maui, my gut feeling feeling is that nothing really depends on continuing services from there other than the comfort of some (high end) tourists. It is 30 mile from OGG, pretty much like LIH and Princeville in the past. Nice to have the option for a short-cut, but not overly dramatic if the airport is no longer served by larger aircraft - or am I missing something here?

Yes, some people like the drive around McGregor point from OGG to Lahaina. But during rush hour, it can take 2+ hours to drive that route, especially if your hotel is well past Lahaina, say Napili or Kapalua. I think there will continue to be a small but steady demand for flights to JHM. Hopefully Island Air, or even one of the Caravan operators will continue to offer that service.

HAL
One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos