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readytotaxi
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"China Is Building 78 New Airports" By 2020

Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:34 pm

Surfing I found this interesting piece from Janes.

http://www.janes.com/products/janes/...D=1065932310&channel=transport

"To give one example, between now and 2020, China is building 78 new airports. Here in Europe, only five will be built between now and 2030."

Now I know that China has a lot more land mass than Europe to play with but that is a very impressive number.
A very long term view from a confident county perhaps.
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ikramerica
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RE: "China Is Building 78 New Airports" By 2020

Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:38 pm

They need 78 new airports, I suppose. In the west, we don't need new airports, we need to improve existing ones.
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Pe@rson
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RE: "China Is Building 78 New Airports" By 2020

Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:43 pm

78 new airports by 2020. Didn't it take LHR 20 years to build - with the many things that entails - Terminal 5?  
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Stitch
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RE: "China Is Building 78 New Airports" By 2020

Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:45 pm

Didn't the Chinese government get the memo from a.net that they're supposed to only keep PVG, HKG and PVG operating so they have to buy hundreds of A380s?   

Seriously, I would not be surprised if China and India follow the "distributed airport" model of the United States and that the main class of plane flown internally are narrowbodies and small widebodies.

The major international gateways well have the VLAs and large twins, of course, but I really don't think we'll see something like Japan of the 1970s-2000s with high-capacity large widebody shuttle service.
 
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RE: "China Is Building 78 New Airports" By 2020

Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:47 pm

This reminds me why I've chosen to steer my career towards airport design.   


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readytotaxi
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RE: "China Is Building 78 New Airports" By 2020

Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:49 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 1):
In the west, we don't need new airports, we need to improve existing ones.
Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 2):
Didn't it take LHR 20 years to build - with the many things that entails - Terminal 5?

Indeed, so by coming to the game later,perhaps they have learnt from our mistakes.  
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Pe@rson
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RE: "China Is Building 78 New Airports" By 2020

Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:51 pm

"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
mogandoCI
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RE: "China Is Building 78 New Airports" By 2020

Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:56 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
The major international gateways well have the VLAs and large twins, of course, but I really don't think we'll see something like Japan of the 1970s-2000s with high-capacity large widebody shuttle service.

It's way more concentrated in Japan. 43% of their population live in either Tokyo or Osaka metro.

In China, PEK+PVG combined is only 3.1%, even using the widest definitions of "metro"
 
fruitbat
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RE: "China Is Building 78 New Airports" By 2020

Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:21 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
Seriously, I would not be surprised if China and India follow the "distributed airport" model of the United States and that the main class of plane flown internally are narrowbodies and small widebodies.

The major international gateways well have the VLAs and large twins, of course, but I really don't think we'll see something like Japan of the 1970s-2000s with high-capacity large widebody shuttle service.

The number of people that want (and will need) shifting round is an order of magnitude (or two!) larger than the US, or Japan.

I am given to understand that the A330 is currently the internal shuttle of choice in China - and based on historic performance, traffic will grow to fill the airports (rather then smaller aircraft filling the extra airport slots at a lower level of growth). I think ultimately we'll see the A330 / A350-800 / 787-8 doing a lot of good business fulfilling the aspirations of the Chinese middle class for cheap air transport. Unless of course someone comes along with a competitive 250-300 seat aircraft optimised for short range missions........A300 or A310 anyone??  
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B2443
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RE: "China Is Building 78 New Airports" By 2020

Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:23 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
Seriously, I would not be surprised if China and India follow the "distributed airport" model of the United States and that the main class of plane flown internally are narrowbodies and small widebodies.

They should if they can't build high-speed rail lines around those places. Or they should build railway stations in the terminals of large airports. PEK, PVG, CAN does not have those besides subway stations.

Even in the airport terminal designs, I think US's mixing departure/arrival pax in the wait area is every efficient. For some reason (european influence?), PEK and PVG's arrival and departure passengers are separated, thus connecting a flight could be a real hassel. For example, an arriving passenger goes to baggage claim first then before he exits to the baggage claim, he goes up and back to the departing wait area. I guess the current PEK/PVG make the wait area look not very busy at all, but would be horrible as hub airports.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 4):
This reminds me why I've chosen to steer my career towards airport design.

There are only about 500 (or half of that depending on where you look) airports in China now, compared to 5000+ (with paved runways) in the US so there you go.
 
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RE: "China Is Building 78 New Airports" By 2020

Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:30 pm

Quoting fruitbat (Reply 8):
am given to understand that the A330 is currently the internal shuttle of choice in China

Only on some routes. Mainly the 737 and 320 families.
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RE: "China Is Building 78 New Airports" By 2020

Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:46 pm

Quoting B2443 (Reply 9):
There are only about 500 (or half of that depending on where you look) airports in China now, compared to 5000+ (with paved runways) in the US so there you go.

Plus India, South East Asia in general, and one day Africa too. I talked to a few analysts before deciding on what I wanted to specialist in once I've finished an MA in Landscape Architecture and they reassured me it was a good choice, but it's still nice to see news like this.   


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RE: "China Is Building 78 New Airports" By 2020

Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:37 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
Seriously, I would not be surprised if China and India follow the "distributed airport" model of the United States and that the main class of plane flown internally are narrow-bodies and small wide-bodies.

Given the right demographic conditions, all markets are "following" that model. If you look to Europe as a single market the most traffic in number of flights is with A320's, B737's, Embraers, Bombardiers, etc,etc.  . That is not really different from the situation in the US.

With the economic growth in China and India (combined 2.4 Billion inhabitants, more the 7 x the US population) the number of new airports will probably be even much bigger then that.  .

On the other hand, especially the Chinese are very active with high-speed trains. And they do so very impressively. So the model they will adapt will be different from the US imho that not every little town will get a commercial little airport like in the US. I guess the Chinese airports will be bigger on average, and their number will be relatively lower to the number of commercial airports in the US. Just my   .

[Edited 2012-02-27 12:40:08]
 
bjorn14
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RE: "China Is Building 78 New Airports" By 2020

Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:12 pm

Quoting B2443 (Reply 9):
There are only about 500 (or half of that depending on where you look) airports in China now, compared to 5000+ (with paved runways) in the US so there you go.

And China has virtually no general aviation sector for it's size.
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RE: "China Is Building 78 New Airports" By 2020

Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:20 pm

Quoting readytotaxi (Thread starter):
A very long term view from a confident county perhaps.

It's no more, no less than Europe or the US did in the 20th century. For the same reasons (including military thoughts) as well.
 
ZKOJH
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RE: "China Is Building 78 New Airports" By 2020

Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:35 pm

one of the 78 new airport is the new Beijing World Airport with 8 runways, which will open in 2015, the City will then have 2 mega airports - Beijing Capital in the North will still be maintained by Air China and Star Alliance and the other one in the south will house everyone else, with super fast rail connections to the City just like PVG mag left.
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AADC10
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RE: "China Is Building 78 New Airports" By 2020

Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:55 pm

Quoting readytotaxi (Thread starter):
Now I know that China has a lot more land mass than Europe to play with but that is a very impressive number.
A very long term view from a confident county perhaps.

It is not that impressive. Most of the 78 are probably smaller than the new Berlin airport and China is seriously under-invested in aviation infrastructure in the central and western provinces. The Chinese oligarchy can also quickly build airports in advance of any real demand in the area. Rail carries a vast majority of passengers within China but it is difficult to develop exporting business without air service. I also suspect that many of the 78 are actually upgrades of unpaved or terminal-less facilities.
 
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RE: "China Is Building 78 New Airports" By 2020

Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:28 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 14):
It's no more, no less than Europe or the US did in the 20th century. For the same reasons (including military thoughts) as well.

Exactly, China is simply catching up in that aspect. The US and Europe don't need 78 new airports anymore (but it wouldn't hurt them to expand or update a few airports until 2020, which of course won't happen...).
 
Orlik
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RE: "China Is Building 78 New Airports" By 2020

Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:41 pm

Some of new airports will be replacement for the old ones, already squeezed in the inner cities, like Kunming just now, or Guinagzhou years ago.
And there will be also huge diference of scale - not all of them are 20+mil like above mentioned or new Beijing airport.
 
mogandoCI
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RE: "China Is Building 78 New Airports" By 2020

Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:04 pm

Quoting orlik (Reply 18):
Some of new airports will be replacement for the old ones, already squeezed in the inner cities, like Kunming just now, or Guinagzhou years ago.

Guinagzhou ? Did you mean CAN ?
 
PanHAM
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RE: "China Is Building 78 New Airports" By 2020

Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:49 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 17):
Exactly, China is simply catching up in that aspect. The US and Europe don't need 78 new airports anymore (but it wouldn't hurt them to expand or update a few airports until 2020, which of course won't happen...)

we actually have a vast number of former military airports in locations where these are not needed and a shortage where the need exists. What happens in densely populated areas, and that are the only locations where airport infrastructure makes sense, can be seen at FRA right now.
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RE: "China Is Building 78 New Airports" By 2020

Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:58 pm

Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 15):
one of the 78 new airport is the new Beijing World Airport with 8 runways

So Beijing goin to be the largest airport in the world beating ATL?

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Pe@rson
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RE: "China Is Building 78 New Airports" By 2020

Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:26 pm

Quoting solnabo (Reply 21):
So Beijing goin to be the largest airport in the world beating ATL?

Without any doubt. Look at both airport's traffic (passengers) since 2006:

ATL (2010 shown first, down to 2006): 89.332 88.001 90.039 89.379 84.847

PEK: 73.948 65.372 55.937 53.584 48.655

Given the growth of China...

[Edited 2012-02-28 09:27:19]
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Markam
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RE: "China Is Building 78 New Airports" By 2020

Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:38 pm

Quoting B2443 (Reply 9):
Even in the airport terminal designs, I think US's mixing departure/arrival pax in the wait area is every efficient. For some reason (european influence?), PEK and PVG's arrival and departure passengers are separated, thus connecting a flight could be a real hassel. For example, an arriving passenger goes to baggage claim first then before he exits to the baggage claim, he goes up and back to the departing wait area. I guess the current PEK/PVG make the wait area look not very busy at all, but would be horrible as hub airports.

On the contrary, separating arriving from departing passengers on international flights makes life much easier for connecting passengers in Europe, as generally they either need not to clear customs/inmigration at all (international to international), or can clear customs at their last destination without picking up and rechecking their baggage at their first point of entry (international to domestic), and it also allows for passport controls on the way out (which is a must in Europe). The trick is to have the option of having international gates function as domestic gates, i.e. having two exists, one that directs towards inmigration and luggage pick-up and customs for international passengers, and one that redirects towards domestic departure/transfer area with an exit to luggage pick-up for domestic passengers. Although there are some exceptions this is the usual case with big European and international airports, and I find it the most comfortable way for passengers.
 
B2443
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RE: "China Is Building 78 New Airports" By 2020

Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:44 pm

Quoting Markam (Reply 23):
On the contrary, separating arriving from departing passengers on international flights makes life much easier

Agreed for international and it's already done that way in China. I was talking about separation for domestic flights.

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