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enilria
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DL Suspends MEM-AMS

Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:26 pm

Another step in the dismantling. They say it will be seasonal...for now.

http://www.memphisdailynews.com/news...a-makes-amsterdam-flight-seasonal/
 
BD338
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RE: DL Suspends MEM-AMS

Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:34 pm

Sad. I flew that route a few times when living in AL. MD11s back in the day!

But if you cut off a lot of the feed then the long haul is going to suffer and especially so in the low demand winter months. Skeptical it will ever return despite what DL say.
 
peanuts
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RE: DL Suspends MEM-AMS

Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:42 pm

Makes sense.

Boy, DL is just making all the right moves lately. They definitely are living in realville, not in ostriche lalaland.

This hurts the Memphis economy a bit, no doubt.
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: DL Suspends MEM-AMS

Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:43 pm

No surprise, unfortunately, but I was hoping the route would survive.

Maybe they will bring it back for the summer season each year. Does anyone know how the route performed this past Summer?

Is CVG-CDG safe?

On the positive note, it looks like PDX-AMS is thriving and safe, which has also been questioned on A.net in the past.
 
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enilria
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RE: DL Suspends MEM-AMS

Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:01 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 3):
Is CVG-CDG safe?

There's PIT and the subsidy ended I think.
 
Indy
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RE: DL Suspends MEM-AMS

Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:08 pm

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
They say it will be seasonal...for now.

I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking that seasonal in this case means it will never come back. It will go as seasonal in September and never return to service in 2013. Losing the route as it is being done now is a slightly softer blow.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
roseflyer
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RE: DL Suspends MEM-AMS

Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:41 pm

Quoting BD338 (Reply 1):
Sad. I flew that route a few times when living in AL. MD11s back in the day!

I thought it was a DC10, then A333 then A332 then 767.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: DL Suspends MEM-AMS

Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:50 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 6):
Quoting BD338 (Reply 1):
Sad. I flew that route a few times when living in AL. MD11s back in the day!

I thought it was a DC10, then A333 then A332 then 767.

It was a KLM MD11 at one time. Recall that back in pre-dismantling days KL flew into MEM (and MSP too) and AF flew into CVG.
 
point2point
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RE: DL Suspends MEM-AMS

Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:03 pm

I guess, obviously, whether or not it returns will depend on what DL really has in mind for MEM. If in the busy season (summer) DL increases or even adds other domestic flights to MEM during this season, then connections will certainly be more available, and this AMS flight may have a chance to return. However, if there continues to be other cutbacks from MEM, and they continue into the summer season, then I don't think that the flight really has any chance on the O&D here alone.

We'll see, and other DL increases/adds to MEM will be good, but if there are cuts, then it will be a sayounara to MEM-AMS.
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: DL Suspends MEM-AMS

Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:09 pm

Oy. Painful news for the people in Memphis.

So will the suspension occur after this summer?

I'm nervously awaiting for DL-KL to announce that DFWAMS will also not be returning....
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MSPNWA
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RE: DL Suspends MEM-AMS

Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:20 pm

That wasn't hard to see coming. I'll be shocked if it returns. Sad to see for MEM. I imagine it was their most prestigious route by far.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: DL Suspends MEM-AMS

Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:34 pm

Sometimes I wonder about the timing of all this:

- DL decides it will end MIA-LHR on a 45 day notice
- DL decides that MEM-AMS will go seasonal on a 6 month notice

There is no normal, but 6 months out is rather far out as of late when it has typically been in the 2-3 month timeframe.

45 days is also very short notice for an international route.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: DL Suspends MEM-AMS

Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:11 pm

Quoting point2point (Reply 8):
I guess, obviously, whether or not it returns will depend on what DL really has in mind for MEM.



Nothing against Memphis but my PERSONAL feelings is that at some point down the road it will be shuttered to nothing more that a large spoke to the likes of RDU/DCA/IND/STL etc etc etc. Honestly, i'd much rather see the mainline a/c being used through MSP and DTW to free up the large RJs for other flying to the likes of JFK and LGA if future expansion out there is warranted.
What gets measured gets done.
 
NWAESC
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RE: DL Suspends MEM-AMS

Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:34 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 6):
I thought it was a DC10, then A333 then A332 then 767.
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 7):
It was a KLM MD11 at one time.

^Yep^

Not sure how long KL ran it, but it was definitely them flying in in the late '98- mid '99 time frame...
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: DL Suspends MEM-AMS

Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:39 am

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 11):
Sometimes I wonder about the timing of all this:

- DL decides it will end MIA-LHR on a 45 day notice
- DL decides that MEM-AMS will go seasonal on a 6 month notice

My guess is that MEM-AMS is part of a larger pull down coming this fall in MEM.
 
kpitrrat
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RE: DL Suspends MEM-AMS

Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:43 am

Quoting enilria (Reply 4):
There's PIT and the subsidy ended I think.

Not sure about the subsidy but I think it went seasonal as well.
 
penguins
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RE: DL Suspends MEM-AMS

Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:47 am

Well, all I can say was, the day was bound to come.
 
jetlanta
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RE: DL Suspends MEM-AMS

Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:30 am

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 11):

Sometimes I wonder about the timing of all this:

- DL decides it will end MIA-LHR on a 45 day notice
- DL decides that MEM-AMS will go seasonal on a 6 month notice

There is no normal, but 6 months out is rather far out as of late when it has typically been in the 2-3 month timeframe.

45 days is also very short notice for an international route.

One word...FUEL.

I was told be a senior planner at another legacy carrier last week that they were going to be loading a significant capacity reduction for the rest of the year and no one yet sees it coming.
 
n782nc
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RE: DL Suspends MEM-AMS

Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:31 am

Quoting kpitrrat (Reply 15):
Not sure about the subsidy but I think it went seasonal as well.

Yep, the subsidy ended last year and if I remember correctly, it's 5/week summer seasonal.

Regarding MEM. Sorry to see this route go, but seriously, who didn't see this coming?

[Edited 2012-02-29 17:33:10]
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MSPNWA
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RE: DL Suspends MEM-AMS

Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:33 am

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 17):
I was told be a senior planner at another legacy carrier last week that they were going to be loading a significant capacity reduction for the rest of the year and no one yet sees it coming.

Then I think that planner is on the right track. I don't like how these fuel trends are going. Airlines will have to act soon if they want to stay ahead of it.
 
davescj
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RE: DL Suspends MEM-AMS

Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:21 am

I flew this route only once, but I did prefer changing planes in MEM over ATL. I think part of the problem is that DL drawing down so much in MEM in general. Remember, it was basically a hub for NW. DL has made MEM and CVG both a RJ haven. Most larger flow traffic is routed via ATL or DTW.

I could see RDU being given this route if the build up there continues.

Dave
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FSDan
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RE: DL Suspends MEM-AMS

Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:24 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 3):
Is CVG-CDG safe?

I would think that route has a much greater chance of sticking around. Cincinnati in general seems to have many more large global companies than Memphis does.
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Jano
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RE: DL Suspends MEM-AMS

Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:47 am

Quoting nwaesc (Reply 13):
Not sure how long KL ran it, but it was definitely them flying in in the late '98- mid '99 time frame...

and 2001-2002 too. Maybe even up to 2003. I remember at least 2 flights on KL.
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thegreatRDU
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RE: DL Suspends MEM-AMS

Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:26 am

Quoting davescj (Reply 20):

I could see RDU being given this route if the build up there continues.

This guy gets it   
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JohnJ
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RE: DL Suspends MEM-AMS

Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:56 am

I was lucky enough to capture most of the various aircraft scheduled on the MEM-AMS route. Unfortunately, the KLM service came in pre-consumer grade DSLR days (I wasn't shooting slides at the time) but I did get the KLM MD-11. I missed the KLM 767, but by the time Northwest rolled onto the route the DSLR age had dawned and I have A.net photos of all the Northwest and Delta planes used MEM-AMS. Here's a couple from the good old days of Fuji ISO 400 print film:

http://airshots.homestead.com/files/klm1.jpg

http://airshots.homestead.com/files/klm2.jpg



[Edited 2012-02-29 19:57:11]
 
YULWinterSkies
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RE: DL Suspends MEM-AMS

Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:03 am

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 9):
I'm nervously awaiting for DL-KL to announce that DFWAMS will also not be returning....
Quoting enilria (Reply 4):
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 3):
Is CVG-CDG safe?

There's PIT and the subsidy ended I think.

I think PIT and DFW are two very different situations from MEM as these are o&d cities on the US side while MEM is a hub (and thus the route is mainly aimed at connecting pax), at least in theory, as MEM keeps getting de-hubbed, shrinking the demand on the route. CDG-CVG is also in a similar situation to AMS-MEM and frankly, I do think it's a matter of when ... it becomes 'seasonal' and then cut.
It still surprises me, however, that a city (now, forget about the hub) of the size of MEM cannot support one flight to one of Europe's largest hub. Or perhaps CDG might work better instead of AMS, for more connections overall. But there are many other fairly large cities all over the Midwest which do not have any direct Europe service either... STL, MCI, IND, CMH and more (you name it).
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slcdeltarumd11
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RE: DL Suspends MEM-AMS

Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:42 am

Sadly no shock here. The feed is getting slowly cut and shrunk. Sad to see it go but i think we all saw this coming   personally i see EWR-MEM cut as a worse sign for times to come at MEM overall. MEM-AMS was long and needed a widebody we all knew it was eventually leaving and oil spike in prices accelerated the need.

CVG-CDG i think is at risk of a 757 reduction but i dont see them totally leaving the market. They might just want less seats as feed gets cut but one stop to many cities in europe is probably still worth it based on corporate demand.
 
jporterfi
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RE: DL Suspends MEM-AMS

Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:27 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 3):
On the positive note, it looks like PDX-AMS is thriving and safe, which has also been questioned on A.net in the past.

I had to think twice about this before I realized that AMS is a Delta hub. I initially though it strange that DL is operating an international flight between two nonhubs.
 
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usdcaguy
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RE: DL Suspends MEM-AMS

Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:27 pm

Quoting davescj (Reply 20):
DL has made MEM and CVG both a RJ haven. Most larger flow traffic is routed via ATL or DTW.

The MEM-AMS winter reduction is a symptom of this. NW and DL used to compete for traffic in the Southeast, and now it is all combined into a big ball that fits better in ATL. Combine that change with the pullback in capacity, and that will eventually doom the MEM-AMS flight, which did well when MEM competed with ATL for traffic. Let's also not forget that the same carrier can now propose a number of nonstop flights out of ATL to some of the most popular cities in Europe in lieu of a double connection over MEM and AMS. It's a little sad to see this happen, but it's all about efficiency these days. The bright side is that all the nonstop flying from ATL to various destinations in Europe is likely to see more demand from travelers going to/from the Southeast, which will better ensure its longevity as the price of fuel stays high.
 
NWAESC
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RE: DL Suspends MEM-AMS

Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:10 pm

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 17):
I was told be a senior planner at another legacy carrier last week that they were going to be loading a significant capacity reduction for the rest of the year and no one yet sees it coming.

"They" meaning DL, or the carrier the senior planner works for?

Quoting davescj (Reply 20):
I think part of the problem is that DL drawing down so much in MEM in general.

True. I used to work the AMS flight in MEM. Totally anecdotal, but the connecting traffic on it came from far and wide, w/o much O & D. Now that that has been slowing drawn down, it makes sense that the flight gets cut. Still sad to see, but...

Quoting Jano (Reply 22):
and 2001-2002 too. Maybe even up to 2003. I remember at least 2 flights on KL.

Ok, thanks. I know it switched back and forth between KL & NW (and then) DL metal, but wasn't sure of the dates outside of when I was down there.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
jetlanta
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RE: DL Suspends MEM-AMS

Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:24 pm

Quoting nwaesc (Reply 29):
"They" meaning DL, or the carrier the senior planner works for?

The other carrier. You can be sure the same plans are falling into place across the industry with oil above $100/barrel.
 
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enilria
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RE: DL Suspends MEM-AMS

Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:40 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 5):
I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking that seasonal in this case means it will never come back. It will go as seasonal in September and never return to service in 2013. Losing the route as it is being done now is a slightly softer blow.

I think that is highly likely unless the city writes a check...and frankly they should or they can kiss Transatlantic service on a passenger aircraft goodbye for ever.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 14):
My guess is that MEM-AMS is part of a larger pull down coming this fall in MEM.

I wouldn't bet against you. What happens to DAL? They are still flying that aren't they? If they leave they will be in an even worse position to get gate/s in 2014 which I'm sure they covet.

Quoting kpitrrat (Reply 15):
Quoting enilria (Reply 4):
There's PIT and the subsidy ended I think.

Not sure about the subsidy but I think it went seasonal as well.

It's probably seasonal because the subsidy ended, but PIT is a much bigger market and has a history of Transatlantic service by a non-hub carrier.

Quoting nwaesc (Reply 29):
Totally anecdotal, but the connecting traffic on it came from far and wide
Quoting jetlanta (Reply 17):
One word...FUEL.

Two words: "no hub".

It's easy to get connecting passengers (if you have a hub), but it's much harder to get high yield locals to offset the dreadful connecting yields. MEM never had that. Without enough feed from its withering "hub" or a big subsidy it will never return.

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 25):
I think PIT and DFW are two very different situations from MEM as these are o&d cities on the US side while MEM is a hub

I don't remember making that comparison, but MEM is hardly a hub at this point and won't be much longer. The real difference in those cities is population and GDP.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: DL Suspends MEM-AMS

Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:43 pm

Yeah with oil this high, there is certainly going to be significant capacity cuts post-summer.

I feel like this industry is always just contracting, sigh.
 
tommy767
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RE: DL Suspends MEM-AMS

Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:53 pm

This route must have been mixed results. Even EWR-AMS got upgraded to a A332 for the summer...

Even though they might claim this route as "seasonal" at this point, didn't DL do the same with PHL-CDG and PIT-CDG to a certain extent? PHL-CDG definitely was suspended and is returning this summer, so perhaps there is hope out there for MEM-AMS.

Quoting davescj (Reply 20):
DL has made MEM and CVG both a RJ haven. Most larger flow traffic is routed via ATL or DTW.

Call me crazy but at this point i see CVG sticking around longer than MEM. CVG just has more corporate contracts and a stronger local economy.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 26):
personally i see EWR-MEM cut as a worse sign for times to come at MEM overall.

Yup. this definitely hurts both for EWR and MEM (obvs more for MEM since UA flies the route.) I have a fond memory of flying MEM-EWR in 2010 in F and sipping Jack and Ginger the whole way. They also served a nice dinner.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
staralliance85
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RE: DL Suspends MEM-AMS

Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:27 pm

It was only a matter of time that DL was going to axe this route. DL really cut dehubbed MEM since the DL/NW merger. With their ATL super hub there is no use for MEM.
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MSYtristar
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RE: DL Suspends MEM-AMS

Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:31 pm

MEM O&D traffic is terrible for a hub city. Frankly I'm surprised the flight lasted this long. When DL contracts MEM further, cities like AUS ,BNA, PIT, RDU, MSY etc should easily pass it up in terms of yearly traffic. It's just not a major market. The hub has always been there to support the connecting traffic flow to/from the Southeast; problem is, a successful hub has a good mix of O&D and connecting traffic. MEM just does not have that.
 
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b727fa
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RE: DL Suspends MEM-AMS

Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:09 pm

Well, CVG FA's did get the 6 day CDG trip back (which included a CDG-PIT-CDG in the middle) for the spring.
My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
 
JohnJ
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RE: DL Suspends MEM-AMS

Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:20 pm

On a lighter note, MEM-SFO is apparently back for the summer.
 
Indy
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RE: DL Suspends MEM-AMS

Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:28 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 31):
I think that is highly likely unless the city writes a check...and frankly they should or they can kiss Transatlantic service on a passenger aircraft goodbye for ever.

In a way it is sad to see the flight go. MEM has character, the food is great, and the people there seem nice. The problem with the service is that the concourse was simply too small for a flight this size. I flew MEM-AMS a few years back just to give the route a try. For the departure it was just a bad arrangement. The arrivals experience wasn't too bad. It beats the sea of humanity that is international arrivals in ATL.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
NWAESC
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RE: DL Suspends MEM-AMS

Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:50 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 38):
The problem with the service is that the concourse was simply too small for a flight this size.

What?

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I'd think that's at the very end of a long lists of reasons.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
SouthernDC9
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RE: DL Suspends MEM-AMS

Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:36 pm

Quoting nwaesc (Reply 39):
The problem with the service is that the concourse was simply too small for a flight this size.

What?

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I'd think that's at the very end of a long lists of reasons.

I can confirm though that the departure gate for this flight is rather quite cramped, and in the past (in my experience anyway) the evening DCA flight always seemed to be boarding at the next gate, just as people are arriving for the AMS flight, so these two rather crowded flights made for limited gate space (plus there were always people lined up at the AMS gate counter with questions or to get passports checked, or whatever they do). Not sure how unique this is to MEM but it did seem to be an issue. Not a reason to not take the flight and MEM has its charm, but it is an issue nonetheless.
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IAHWorldflyer
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RE: DL Suspends MEM-AMS

Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:58 pm

When I was in MEM in January I was shocked how few mainline planes DL had at the gates. no more than a half dozen. Everything was RJ's.
So what other international service does DL operate from MEM now? I guess CUN and MBJ are still active? Didn't NW also fly to NAS from there at one point?
 
NWAESC
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RE: DL Suspends MEM-AMS

Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:43 pm

Quoting SouthernDC9 (Reply 40):
I can confirm though that the departure gate for this flight is rather quite cramped,

Having worked there myself, I certainly agree. I'm just saying that "cramped gate space" is not going to generally be a reason to cut a flight like this one.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
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enilria
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RE: DL Suspends MEM-AMS

Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:21 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 32):
I feel like this industry is always just contracting, sigh.

100% agree

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 33):
Call me crazy but at this point i see CVG sticking around longer than MEM. CVG just has more corporate contracts and a stronger local economy.

Also agree. CVG has more corporate support.
 
tommy767
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RE: DL Suspends MEM-AMS

Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:26 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 43):

That and not to mention there was that news article from a local MEM TV station that bashed Delta for raising prices at the airport. Apparently its somewhat of a popular opinion there. Had some nice terminal shots of the DL hub.

I watched that video and just felt like saying, "Sorry people. What do you expect? DL is the only game in town for MEM."
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
NWAESC
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RE: DL Suspends MEM-AMS

Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:49 pm

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 44):
That and not to mention there was that news article from a local MEM TV station that bashed Delta for raising prices at the airport. Apparently its somewhat of a popular opinion there. Had some nice terminal shots of the DL hub.

Local media bashing the hometown carrier (or hub) is a long standing tradition, unfortunately. 'Course, those same outlets will also bemoan any service reduction as well...
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
Indy
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RE: DL Suspends MEM-AMS

Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:20 pm

Quoting nwaesc (Reply 39):

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I'd think that's at the very end of a long lists of reasons.

Maybe my wording didn't make that point clear. What I was trying to get at was this was an issue to me from a customer service perspective. Certainly you don't axe a route because the gate space is cramped. But from a customer service perspective it left a lot to be desired.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
tripple7
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RE: DL Suspends MEM-AMS

Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:47 pm

Sad news....but we all saw it coming after the NW take-over by DL. Was hoping this niche would hold as well as Portland - AMS.

Flew the route myself a handful times. Always enjoyed the convience of quick transfers at MEM. All times I flew the route the plane was filled near to full capacity...unfortunately that does not tell us anything about yields. Appears ops through ATL are more efficient, which is not surprising. The route was great while it lasted (15 years + !!!). Thanks KL, NW, and DL! Hope to see it back in the 2013 summer schedules.
 
SouthernDC9
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RE: DL Suspends MEM-AMS

Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:13 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 7):
It was a KLM MD11 at one time. Recall that back in pre-dismantling days KL flew into MEM (and MSP too) and AF flew into CVG.

I remember seeing the beautiful KLM flight attendants at MEM in their bright blue uniforms. Very neat.
What does AA/US merger mean for CLT/JFK/PHX/North America/Southern Hemisphere/God's Plan for the Universe
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: DL Suspends MEM-AMS

Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:25 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 43):
Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 32):
I feel like this industry is always just contracting, sigh.

100% agree

Ugh, EVERYTHING is contracting, including the hardware. Downsizing aircraft, seat space, airport restrooms, terminal space, security areas, it's horrible!!!!!!!!

Quoting nwaesc (Reply 45):
Local media bashing the hometown carrier (or hub) is a long standing tradition, unfortunately. 'Course, those same outlets will also bemoan any service reduction as well...

Nature of the media.   Always about content generation, often lacking the sensitivity (and accuracy) the rest of us a.nutters feel at heart!!

Quoting tripple7 (Reply 47):

Sad news....but we all saw it coming after the NW take-over by DL. Was hoping this niche would hold as well as Portland - AMS.

PDX has been up-and-down, but to be truthful, PDX experienced its "de-hubbing" by DL long time back. The NW flight, subsequently DL, stayed around due to subsidies, but unlike MEM, PDX also doesn't have the proximity to the 800lb gorilla at ATL.
confidence is silent. insecurities are loud.

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