CHRISBA777ER
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HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report

Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:35 am

Reports on Bloomberg that Hong Kong / Hainan group might be cancelling their A380 order.

Reuters - http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...gkong-airbus-idUSLNE82000X20120301

Political wrangling or something deeper?

Anyone got any ideas?
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
leftyboarder
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RE: HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report

Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:02 pm

I always wondered "what the heck are they going to do with them?", so I can't say I am surprised. Same goes with Transaero, I somehow doubt they will be receiving them. And let's not forget Kingfisher. The A380 is too big for most operators. Of course there might be some political dogfight, but who knows the real reason but the top management at HK Airlines.
 
ZKCIF
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RE: HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report

Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:11 pm

would it have been cheaper not to order at all?
Or they did a deal behind the politicians' backs and got a big fat NO?
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report

Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:12 pm

There have been a first couple of inklings that all is not well at HKA. This is in stark contrast to the very optimistic press releases by management there including plans to buy into HACTL, the largest cargo facility here in HKG, plans to start their own catering services here and to build a Cathay City-style (Cathay's large HQ complex) HQ.

Will be interesting to see what happens but I have always maintained that they cannot continue at the pace they are going. Their owners have deep pockets but are not stupid. How much money can you keep throwing into a venture that has so far not made money and has far from any guarantees of it. Aviation is not a cheap game to play.
 
Daysleeper
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RE: HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report

Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:22 pm

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Thread starter):
Political wrangling or something deeper?

Anyone got any ideas?

Going by how enthusiastically operators have received their A380’s then it has to be political. It’s not the first time China has played such games either; China Airlines ordered 10 748I’s a while ago which I believe to still be in a state of political limbo and have not been firmed up.
 
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scbriml
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RE: HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report

Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:31 pm

IMHO, it's just China applying additional pressure on the EU in respect of ETS.

Now, that doesn't mean the order couldn't be cancelled, but given how recently it was placed, I'd be surprised.

[Edited 2012-03-01 04:34:37]
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mogandoCI
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RE: HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report

Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:34 pm

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 4):
Going by how enthusiastically operators have received their A380’s then it has to be political. It’s not the first time China has played such games either; China Airlines ordered 10 748I’s a while ago which I believe to still be in a state of political limbo and have not been firmed up.

Not to nitpick, but that's AirChina (CA, out of PEK) who ordered, not ChinaAirlines (CI, out of TPE)
 
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EPA001
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RE: HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report

Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:43 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 5):

IMHO, it's just China applying additional pressure on the EU in respect of ETS.

That would be my guess as well. Too bad that the EU decided to go it alone instead of trying to reach a compromise.  .

Quoting scbriml (Reply 5):
Now, that doesn't mean the order couldn't be cancelled, but given how recently it was placed, I'd be surprised.

Normally a customer would not cancel in such a short time unless something severe would happen. Political pressure can be something severe I guess.  .
 
Cerecl
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RE: HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report

Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:47 pm

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 4):

Going by how enthusiastically operators have received their A380’s then it has to be political

A380 is fantastic for SQ, EK etc, but it does not necessarily fit everyone. Having said that, HX/HU had plenty of time to assess the impact of A380 so hopefully when they finally signed they knew what they were doing.

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 4):
It’s not the first time China has played such games either

Actually it is a rarity if this threat is politically based. Chinese airlines sometimes get their orders signed during state visits, but they have not, as far as I know, cancelled or delayed ordering aircrafts based on political considerations on a regular basis. I recall CA placing a sizable order of A330 not long after the fiasco of Olympic torch relay personnel being assaulted in the UK and France in 2008. The anger then was 10 times what we have now over the EU tax.

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 4):
China Airlines ordered 10 748I’s a while ago which I believe to still be in a state of political limbo and have not been firmed up.

I think you are referring to Air China (CA) not China Airlines (CI), and the order was for 5 748i. I also disagree with the assertion that the delay is politically motivated. The leader-in-waiting of China just paid the US a highly publicised visit and there was not much out of the ordinary in the Sino-US relationship during the year since the MOU was signed.
 
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RE: HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report

Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:51 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 5):
IMHO, it's just China applying additional pressure on the EU in respect of ETS.

I'll go with this as the likely theory also.
 
JAAlbert
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RE: HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report

Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:16 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 5):
IMHO, it's just China applying additional pressure on the EU in respect of ETS.

Since Bloomberg is a financial paper, I would think that if the possible cancellation were due to finances, Bloomberg would have picked that up and reported it. Instead, the entire article deals with China's unhappiness over the ETS. So, I'd conclude this is all about the ETS.
 
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zeke
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RE: HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report

Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:32 pm

This was in the local SCMP today, pressure to cancel the A380 orders in relation fir the EU carbon tax.
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Daysleeper
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RE: HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report

Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:57 pm

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 6):
Not to nitpick, but that's AirChina (CA, out of PEK) who ordered, not ChinaAirlines (CI, out of TPE)
Quoting Cerecl (Reply 8):
I think you are referring to Air China (CA) not China Airlines (CI), and the order was for 5 748i. I also disagree with the assertion that the delay is politically motivated. The leader-in-waiting of China just paid the US a highly publicised visit and there was not much out of the ordinary in the Sino-US relationship during the year since the MOU was signed.

I was going on what I read in this thread, and also this article.

I'm not sure what will prove to be correct, but there was certainly very strong opinion at the time of political involvement.
 
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Stitch
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RE: HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report

Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:13 pm

So if this is political, I guess China thought it would be a stronger message to approve the order so that they could then threaten to cancel it, rather then just threaten to cancel an MoU?

Maybe they'll pull the trigger on their supposed 747-8 MoU and use that as an additional bargaining point?
 
oldeuropean
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RE: HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report

Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:31 pm

If this is political, it's totally stupid.

Do they think that Airbus is a company administrated by the European Commision.   

And why is China Southern proudly accepting every new A380? The last one was delivered today.


So it's more about HK beeing in trouble.  
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Stitch
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RE: HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report

Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:54 pm

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 14):
And why is China Southern proudly accepting every new A380?

Well CZ's birds were completed and partially paid for, though the Chinese government could reimburse CZ for the expense of canceling the order. Also, even if China had done so, it's not like Airbus could not have found an immediate home for them with EK, so...

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 14):
So it's more about HK beeing in trouble.

It does sound like a more logical reason.

They have not yet firmed their 747-8 MoU, which could have been used by China as a "slap" at the EU.

If I was HX and I thought I could only afford one of two VLAs I had on order, I'd certainly chose the A380 over the 747-8. So perhaps they quietly cancelled/delayed their 747-8 order, went ahead with the A380 order, and now feel that they shouldn't have ordered it, either.
 
something
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RE: HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report

Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:23 pm

http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2006/september/tradoc_113366.pdf

As can be seen, China is exporting a lot more to the EU than vice versa. Not the rosiest position to be in, to launch a trade war.

I would assume Hong Kong airlines' A380 was a bit too ambitious, and the cancellation is now being used as a bargaining tool, regardless of its nature (financial woes).

I assume we'll hear a lot more noise from the Chinese and probably from the US as well, but we'll see no action from either side. You can currently book MAD-JFK-MAD on Iberia for €280. Try to find a round trip ticket from the US to Europe and you'll find fares 50-70% higher than those in the other direction. The same holds true for EU-China or China-EU travel.

That strongly suggests that people travel to Europe, because they want to travel to Europe and that Europeans travel to the USA and China because it's one out of many options, ie Californians will still visit Paris if the round trip costs $1500, whereas no European would be willing to spend that much money on an economy seat to Los Angeles.

In mere economical terms, the EU is in a very cozy position to ignore the whinging of China and the US; in legal terms they're in their full right to do so; in political terms they're backed by a majority of the European population; and in ethical and ecological terms they're doing way too little, far too late.

Besides, they're really shooting themselves in the foot here. Hong Kong Airlines is not very well known as a brand. Once all majors fly into HKG (and PEK alike) on A380s, and CX exists in their own right, I would be curious to know what HX will do to win passengers over.

Sorry Mr Jintao. We love you, but we love our future more.
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ikramerica
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RE: HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report

Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:54 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 5):
IMHO, it's just China applying additional pressure on the EU in respect of ETS.

Agreed, though it might be a way for them to do this while backing out of a deal they realized was too ambitious for the airline?
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kc135topboom
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RE: HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report

Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:38 pm

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Thread starter):
Political wrangling or something deeper?
Quoting scbriml (Reply 5):
IMHO, it's just China applying additional pressure on the EU in respect of ETS.
Quoting EPA001 (Reply 7):
That would be my guess as well. Too bad that the EU decided to go it alone instead of trying to reach a compromise
Quoting clydenairways (Reply 9):

I'll go with this as the likely theory also.
Quoting zeke (Reply 11):
This was in the local SCMP today, pressure to cancel the A380 orders in relation fir the EU carbon tax.

As Zeke said, and it is in the Rruters link in the OP.

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Thread starter):
Reuters - http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...20301
Quoting Stitch (Reply 13):
Maybe they'll pull the trigger on their supposed 747-8 MoU and use that as an additional bargaining point?

That could be, it could also be that they will use the (possible) A-380 order cancelation as a bargining chip for the B-747-8I.

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 14):
If this is political, it's totally stupid.

Do they think that Airbus is a company administrated by the European Commision.

No, but two of the heavy hitters in the EU/EC are Germany and France, and they do own part of EADS.
 
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PanAm_DC10
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RE: HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report

Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:52 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 19):
That could be, it could also be that they will use the (possible) A-380 order cancelation as a bargining chip for the B-747-8I.

More like they'll use the 787 as a bargaining chip for the reported 747-8i from HNA group, which is the parent, according to a report by Bloomberg.

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glideslope
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RE: HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report

Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:57 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 5):
IMHO, it's just China applying additional pressure on the EU in respect of ETS.

Now, that doesn't mean the order couldn't be cancelled, but given how recently it was placed, I'd be surprised.

The EU will never change position on ETS.   

Therefore, the order will dissolve.   
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
aerokiwi
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RE: HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report

Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:19 pm

Quoting something (Reply 16):
As can be seen,

Really? You really think that a hypocrisy (we'll buy your cheap products but we'll admonish you for the pollution they create), guesswork (the legality is in dispute) and a condescension (Europe is oh so "ethical") is a sound argument?

I particularly like this part...

Quoting something (Reply 16):
Sorry Mr Jintao. We love you, but we love our future more.

Though evidently you don't love the future THAT much (and by future we are talking about your own, self-interests here) because...

Quoting something (Reply 16):
and in ethical and ecological terms they're doing way too little, far too late.

To put it down to a single factor is unlikely. Yes the ETS factors into it (and why not? Why reward those who impose on your welfare?) but undoubtedly economics comes into this as well.

[Edited 2012-03-01 13:19:54]
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report

Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:50 pm

Well, I see the EC more willing to give up a $3B-$4B sale of airplanes than giving into not collecting taxes from everyone on Earth. Yes, ETS is a tax, it will be spent on social programs and not on the enviornment.
 
Cerecl
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RE: HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report

Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:07 pm

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 12):

I was going on what I read in this thread, and also this article.

These are almost 6 years old! CI has since ordered 14+6 A359s and I believe they said replacing VLA was no longer on the short-term agenda. Also CI is based in Taiwan, even if there were a political order it has nothing to do with HX/HU which is based in Mainland China.

Quoting something (Reply 16):
the EU is in a very cozy position to ignore the whinging of China and the US

  
Are we talking about the same EU whose currecy is lurching from one crisis to another on a weekly basis? The EU wants a trade war with a cashed up China like a hole in the head.

Quoting something (Reply 16):

Sorry Mr Jintao. We love you, but we love our future more.

His surname is Hu.
I understand aviation is a minor contributor to CO2 emission. I really doubt this tax is primarily aimed at saving the environment.
 
GIANCAVIA
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RE: HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report

Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:27 pm

If its to fight back against the carbon tax I fully back them and hope more companies do these things. All these foney green taxes are getting ridiculous. Easiest way to rip a person off in 2012.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 24):
Quoting something (Reply 16):
the EU is in a very cozy position to ignore the whinging of China and the US

Having a laugh right, EU is begging for Chinese investment and bailouts. Ludicrous hippy taxes that wont make a tiny bit of difference on a world scale is all this carbon crap is. Only thing it will do is damage the EU.. at a time where the EU is in that famous creek of **** without a paddle.

[Edited 2012-03-01 15:28:15]
 
BEG2IAH
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RE: HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report

Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:29 pm

Yeah, too bad A380 doesn't support the typical level of pollution in China. Just keep it dirty as this poor B735 shows...


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BEG2IAH
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Francoflier
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RE: HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report

Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:24 am

Not a fan of the ETS at all, but again, why all the fuss?

No one is forcing them to fly those to Europe, and if they do, everybody else will have to pay that tax as well, so there is no unfair competition and the passengers will end up picking up the bill, not the airline directly...

On the other hand, I still can't see HKA going from operating a handful of 737s regionally to having a major widebody fleet operating throughout the world in just a few years. Especially not considering what transpires of the way they manage that business...
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clickhappy
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RE: HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report

Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:46 am

Quoting something (Reply 16):
In mere economical terms, the EU is in a very cozy position to ignore the whinging of China and the US

Get real. China and US are the two largest export markets for EU goods (including airplanes).

Quoting something (Reply 16):
You can currently book MAD-JFK-MAD on Iberia for €280

Nobody in Spain has any money. Have you seen some of the numbers? "Official" unemployment over 23% (including 50% of all those under the age of 25), Recession for the last 3 years, Bond bailouts by the ECB, they are even growing weed to try to make ends meet.

Still, it sounds like a nice place to visit.
 
Gipsy
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RE: HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report

Fri Mar 02, 2012 7:51 am

I bet China needs high tech manufacturing tools, pharmaceuticals and the like more than the EU needs cheap electronics and the like. We can build them ourselves and get unskilled people into work. Main disadvatage is that we then also have the pollution here. Also a lot of other chinese companies try to build up manafucturing cpabilities here in the EU as it is vice versa. And as said we're already in trouble. I would like to see how China fares if it would be cut off of one of it's main markets. All in all not a fair way of dealing with things. The US just went to court. But if China doesn't like the rules then...lucky for them that the europeans and americans are so greedy to bow down to their often unfair rules of technology transfer and JV...but then again it's their choice and the local rules. Live with them or leave it. Same as in this case. So no point in playing the unfair treated victim while at the same time blackmailing somebody else.
 
Flyglobal
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RE: HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report

Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:16 am

It will come down to: will EU give in on the rules, or not. The plane game is to lobby Airbus against the EU to support changing the rule. That may fail. Once they givein, there will be other cases where the same game could be used.

The export situation for China is different then for US: China delivers much more to Europe then EU to China.
For textiles, I believe Bangladesh, Vietnam, Indonesia, Thailand, India will be happy to help out deliveries to Europe. Given that Europe also could produce clothes, I think assembling Notebook computers and IPhones in countries like Romania, could easily replace Chinese produced Notebooks and IPhone. No problem with European Investment products (factory equipment). They still need them to run effective factories.

So China on a loose if they want a trade war. No.

The situation mey be different for US, but also here its either already products made in local US production, or they would be needed anyhow.

I think total stop of the scheme will not be achieved, if they modify then on the calculation basis.

Regards

Flyglobal
 
sweair
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RE: HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report

Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:50 am

Its sad that Airbus is still more a political adventure than a business venture, its my hope its sold and privatized, all governmental ties cut. And if they want to keep it governmental, how about giving more EU partners a piece of the pie, as we all pay for it through our taxes..
 
Rara
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RE: HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report

Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:51 am

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 14):

Do they think that Airbus is a company administrated by the European Commision.

Well, let's just say if France and Germany wanted ETS done away with, it'd be history. So it does make some (limited) sense to target Airbus.


Anyway, I wouldn't worry about this political posturing. If Hong Kong Airlines need the A380, they're gonna buy it eventually. If not, they won't. Can't let that dictate your much larger economic policy; let alone that it would set a very bad precedent.

Quoting something (Reply 16):
Sorry Mr Jintao.

Mr Who  
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CX Flyboy
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RE: HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report

Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:01 am

Its protecting their own economy and businesses. Unfortunately many countries do it with extra taxes on imported cars, planes, meat etc etc... China has many faults but protecting your own economy is a common one. The rest of the world is simply upset because they cannot compete....but thats not China's fault.

[Edited 2012-03-02 08:54:02 by SA7700]
 
Gipsy
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RE: HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report

Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:03 pm

That's not the point. China demands nobody messing around in their inner politics. So we are all told that the chinese way is the way of mutual respect. How does this fit then? Should the EU impose taxes on chinese goods for them often not protecting ip and setting up unfavorable conditions for getting access to it's market and production capacities? Your rules....our rules......live with them. Especially when these rules apply to all, including the EU companies, in contrary to many chinese rules only applicable to foreign bodies.
 
Rara
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RE: HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report

Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:09 pm

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 34):

Its protecting their own economy and businesses. Unfortunately many countries do it with extra taxes on imported cars, planes, meat etc etc... China has many faults but protecting your own economy is a common one. The rest of the world is simply upset because they cannot compete....but thats not China's fault.

No, that's something else altogether. Protecting their own economy is every country's prerogative. Economists currently believe that it's harmful in the long run, but hey - a sovereign nation can introduce all taxes, tarrifs, quotas it likes. That's completely OK.

What's not OK: joining a free-trade organization like the WTO to benefit the export sector, while at the same time trying to influence other countries' economic policy via import restrictions. If China really blocks an aircraft acquisition to put pressure on the EU in an unrelated field, that's an unfair trade practice. And it shouldn't stand.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
mham001
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RE: HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report

Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:39 pm

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 8):
but they have not, as far as I know, cancelled or delayed ordering aircrafts based on political considerations on a regular basis.

Define "regular". They do have a habit of doing exactly this, recall a small order for 150 737s which was delayed until they got over their anger for something the US government had done.

Quoting something (Reply 16):
In mere economical terms, the EU is in a very cozy position to ignore the whinging of China and the US;

That's just laughable.

Despite all the self-righteous indignation, the EU has a problem. I don't believe that China is the only country that will stand up to them and it could get painful. Taxing the use my airspace? You must be joking.... I wish China well.
 
sweair
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RE: HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report

Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:59 pm

I regret my vote for the EU membership, seeing how EU turns more and more into a Soviet styled empire, with a political elite out of touch with reality. China could really put a hurt on EU if they wanted. Russia too, there goes the gas pipe for Germany..
 
dfambro
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RE: HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report

Fri Mar 02, 2012 7:53 pm

All this talk about whether the EU needs China more than vice-versa implies that this will balloon into a full scale trade war. That's highly doubtful, though. Small tit-for-tat type steps may be taken (such as with the 380 order), but both sides have a lot to lose from a full scale escaltion to trade war and I doubt either wants to go there. It's far more likely that the steps taken by both sides will be proportional and stay within the aviation realm.
 
lewis
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RE: HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report

Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:04 pm

Quoting clickhappy (Reply 28):
Nobody in Spain has any money.

What?

Quoting clickhappy (Reply 28):
they are even growing weed to try to make ends meet.

Source?

Really, you gave me a good laugh this morning, thank you!
 
Cerecl
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RE: HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report

Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:20 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 36):
Define "regular". They do have a habit of doing exactly this, recall a small order for 150 737s which was delayed until they got over their anger for something the US government had done.

A habit? Any examples except the SPECULATED HX delay of A380s? Again, Chinese airlines sometimes horde orders for special occasions like state visits. An order like 150 737s would be such an example. Again, show me the last time CA, CZ or MU cancelled orders due to political reasons. HX also at one stage talked about a 748i orders, where is it? You think it has something to do with politics as well?

Quoting lewis (Reply 39):
Source?
http://www.theage.com.au/world/giant...n-high-on-debt-20120302-1u8gx.html
 
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huaiwei
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RE: HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report

Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:56 pm

Quoting something (Reply 16):
Sorry Mr Jintao.

Says alot on just how little you know of cultures outside of your European sphere. I would read your posts with a pinch of salt.

Quoting gipsy (Reply 34):
That's not the point. China demands nobody messing around in their inner politics. So we are all told that the chinese way is the way of mutual respect. How does this fit then? Should the EU impose taxes on chinese goods for them often not protecting ip and setting up unfavorable conditions for getting access to it's market and production capacities? Your rules....our rules......live with them. Especially when these rules apply to all, including the EU companies, in contrary to many chinese rules only applicable to foreign bodies.

The key difference, as many people have voiced out before, is that the EU is trying to enforce a tax which includes activity happening outside its jurisdiction. Sure, China asks for mutual respect, but show me one instance of China penalising other countries for failing to handle their internal social affairs in the same way as the Chinese. The EU aviation tax effectively has trended into the territory of interfering in other people's affairs, and the Chinese have hardly come close to match that.

As for your issue with discriminatory rules against foreign bodies, are you suggesting that your country has universal rules, rights, and privileges for everyone in your country regardless of nationality? I know mine do not (foreigners can't buy landed property, amongst many discriminatory rules against foreigners), and yet is still thriving perfectly well as the third richest country on Earth according to a recent report. If yours have perfect rules, please let me know so I can consider moving there!
It's huaiwei...not huawei. I have nothing to do with the PRC! :)
 
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kc135topboom
Posts: 11022
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report

Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:58 pm

Quoting huaiwei (Reply 41):
If yours have perfect rules, please let me know so I can consider moving there!

Great post, but you may not be able to get there if you wanted to fly there aboard a HK A-380.
 
Gipsy
Posts: 67
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RE: HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report

Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:20 am

Quoting huaiwei (Reply 41):
Sure, China asks for mutual respect, but show me one instance of China penalising other countries for failing to handle their internal social affairs in the same way as the Chinese. The EU aviation tax effectively has trended into the territory of interfering in other people's affairs, and the Chinese have hardly come close to match that.

I'm not defending the aviation tax per se, don't even know if it's worth anything. I wouldn't tax aviation anyway but I'm biased  . It's just that China isn't penalised here in comparison to other countries as everybody has to pay these taxes. And as chinese carriers operate modern fleets the impact will be quite modest. Assuming that flying from country a to country b and therefore having tp pay tax in country b affects your inner autonomy is a bit far fetched. If a country sets certain standards and rules for a/c operating within it's boundaries then it's their undeniable right to do so. Just because certain philosophical/ethical (environmental protection) aspects are not shared it doesn't automatically make them less worthy than for example limiting values of mercury in consumables.

The chinese government for example doesn't want to revalue it's currency, instead it's artificially kept low. To name one point.

Quoting huaiwei (Reply 41):
As for your issue with discriminatory rules against foreign bodies, are you suggesting that your country has universal rules, rights, and privileges for everyone in your country regardless of nationality? I know mine do not (foreigners can't buy landed property, amongst many discriminatory rules against foreigners), and yet is still thriving perfectly well as the third richest country on Earth according to a recent report. If yours have perfect rules, please let me know so I can consider moving there!

For what I know there are some limitations for foreign bodies in acquiring certain sensible industries. But from an operational point of view all are dealt with the same rules and can seek executive and jurisdictional support if they feel treated unjust.
I understand foreigners not being able to buy land as they please in a limited space area like Singapore. But in the EU if you have full residential rights you may buy whatever you want. And even if you don't have permanent residence permit I believe you are able to buy yourself a house. You just can't stay there for 365 days and have to occasionally leave and return.

To come back to China. The Chinese gov. is very strict regarding the permanent sale of real estate property, and this is also true for chinese citizens. But at the same time vast areas of land are acquired outside of China to produce agricultural products. If that's not double standards then I don't know. In contrary to this, the tax imposed by the EU affects all airlines. Is this so hard to accept? You could take it further and say the higher landing fees in some airports interfere with the business model of cheaper airports as they generally increase the costs of air travel and thus lower the total amounts of flights which in turn leads to less traffic for these cheap airports.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report

Sun Mar 04, 2012 3:17 pm

Quoting gipsy (Reply 43):
It's just that China isn't penalised here in comparison to other countries as everybody has to pay these taxes.

Yes, China alone isn't being penalised, the entire world is. That brings up the lagitiment question of what right does the EC, or any country or group of countries have imposing a tax upon another country? I am not talking about tarifis imposed on imports to a country, but a general tax on citizens and non-cilizens alike to go into the general funds for whatever programs the EC/EU decides based on a premise that may or may not be scientificly true. There is still a lively debate on global warming caused by mankind. This tax will (for the most part) not go into resolving that problem, but will go into social programs and bailouts of countries within the EU because of those countries current financial situations.

Therefore the Chinese have a right to reevaluate their purchases of goods made within the EU, and it could be anytime from A-380s to Olive Oil.
 
Gipsy
Posts: 67
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2009 5:17 pm

RE: HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report

Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:14 am

Where does the arrival and departure tax in the US go to? Or the agricultural inspection fee? I shall not bring an apple with me into the US how very unfair.
Again what's so hard to understand in a countrys right to tax something (out of whatever interest)? You could start to qúestion many things then. You are only subject to this tax if you go into a relationship with this country and nobody obliges you to do so if you don't like their rules. Even more so if they apply to everyone.


International flight fees (taxes):


•Departure and arrival taxes - $16.10
•Agricultural inspection fee(tax) - $5.00 on arrival
•Customs user fee(tax) - $5.50 on arrival
•Immigration user fee (tax)- $7.00 on arrival


Read more: http://www.investopedia.com/financia...st-40-Years-Ago.aspx#ixzz1oDgsYkgj
 
HKG212
Posts: 136
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:50 pm

RE: HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report

Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:49 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 5):
IMHO, it's just China applying additional pressure on the EU in respect of ETS.
Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 10):
Since Bloomberg is a financial paper, I would think that if the possible cancellation were due to finances, Bloomberg would have picked that up and reported it. Instead, the entire article deals with China's unhappiness over the ETS. So, I'd conclude this is all about the ETS.
Quoting zeke (Reply 11):
This was in the local SCMP today, pressure to cancel the A380 orders in relation fir the EU carbon tax.
Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 14):
So it's more about HK beeing in trouble.
Quoting francoflier (Reply 27):
On the other hand, I still can't see HKA going from operating a handful of 737s regionally to having a major widebody fleet operating throughout the world in just a few years. Especially not considering what transpires of the way they manage that business...

It's really quite a simple story. HX overreached -- latest example is their absurd attempt to start business class-only A330 flights on HKG-LGW, one of the most competitive routes in the world -- and leaked hints of Chinese displeasure at the ETS as a face-saving measure for cancelling an order that should not have been placed in the first place.
 
lewis
Posts: 3581
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 1999 5:41 am

RE: HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report

Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:26 pm

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 40):
Quoting lewis (Reply 39):
Source?
http://www.theage.com.au/world/giant...n-high-on-debt-20120302-1u8gx.html

Oh I thought the whole of Spain was turning to weed cultivation to diversify their industries... nevermind.
 
Flighty
Posts: 7880
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

RE: HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report

Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:05 am

A country has every right to tax whatever happens within its airports or its airspace. But outside of that... not really.
 
Asiaflyer
Posts: 706
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 11:50 am

RE: HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report

Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:52 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 44):
There is still a lively debate on global warming caused by mankind.

Not really among scientist anymore, but lobby organizations tries to keep that debate alive, with less and less luck though.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 44):
This tax will (for the most part) not go into resolving that problem, but will go into social programs and bailouts of countries within the EU because of those countries current financial situations.

You totally misses the point. The carbon tax is not for collection money for environmental activities. It is for making emitting CO2 more expensive and thereby reducing the emissions. The best for the environment is to not pollute.

I think anyway that a possible cancellation is not due to any political reasons.
I see HK Air having problems to find routes to deploy their current A330 fleet on.
The A380 is an overkill for them IMO.
SQ,MI,MH,CX,KA,CA,CZ,MU,KE,OZ,QF,NZ,FD,JQ,3K,5J,IT,AI,IC,QR,SK,LF,KL,AF,LH,LX,OS,SR,BA,SN,FR,WF,1I,5T,VZ,VX,AC,NW,UA,US,
 
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Focker
Posts: 131
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:37 pm

RE: HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report

Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:10 am

Funny enough the latest addition in MSN's is assigned to HK.

MSN 180 to be HK's first A380.

Source: http://www.ch-aviation.ch/aircraft.php

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