airevents
Topic Author
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LH Axes DUS-NRT Before It Starts

Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:06 pm

As per this newspaper report (sorry I couldn´t find anything in English so far), LH will not inaugurate the planned DUS-NRT service this summer due to very low demand apparently. What a shame and quite unexpected to me. Wonder if they will offer anything else instead?

Here´s the link for all you German-speakers:

http://www.derwesten.de/reise/luftha...g-duesseldorf-tokio-id6416771.html
www.airevents.com
 
wilco737
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RE: LH Axes DUS-NRT Before It Starts

Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:09 pm

Quoting airevents (Thread starter):

Oh, that is surprising. But I guess with the difficult market at the moment, it is understandable and LH was axing several routes lately.

wilco737
  
 
vfw614
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RE: LH Axes DUS-NRT Before It Starts

Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:12 pm

Two important pieces of information are that LH

- has not axed the route as such, but postponed its start until 2013 (at least officially).
- will not replace the A330s at DUS with A340s.
 
744lover
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RE: LH Axes DUS-NRT Before It Starts

Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:33 pm

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 2):
will not replace the A330s at DUS with A340s.

Something that has been on my mind for some time is why LH has A330 and A343 configured with exactly the same number of seats 8 / 48 / 165 (at least according to seatguru)? Number of cockpit and cabin crew is the same when we compare a same route... So, what's the deal?
 
b6a322
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RE: LH Axes DUS-NRT Before It Starts

Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:36 pm

Would be very cool and pleased to DUS-JFK again. Yes I know airberlin flies it, but given the choice...
The content I post are my own thoughts, nothing more. :)
 
Joost
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RE: LH Axes DUS-NRT Before It Starts

Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:18 pm

Quoting 744lover (Reply 3):
Something that has been on my mind for some time is why LH has A330 and A343 configured with exactly the same number of seats 8 / 48 / 165 (at least according to seatguru)? Number of cockpit and cabin crew is the same when we compare a same route... So, what's the deal?

It has to do with flexibility while using the fleet. With identically configured 333/343, you have the possibility to swap aircraft easily.

- The 343 can fly any route the 333 can, but will use more fuel while doing so
- The 333 cannot fly all routes flown by the 343, but is more fuel-efficient on the routes it can fly

Now, this makes it possible to use the 343 when needed, and the 333 when possible.

When operating an extensive schedule (like LH does), this really comes to fruition. It makes it possible to sometimes fly an A-market (6-8 hours) route on a 343 when it fits between two long (10+ hours) flights, but to also use the 333 on these A-market routes whenever possible.

Quite some carriers use the 333/343 combination this way, including LH, AY, LX.
 
XA744
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RE: LH Axes DUS-NRT Before It Starts

Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:25 pm

I remember having flown LH on their FRA-DUS-ANC-NRT, back in 1984 on a 742 combi. The flight was packed, both with cargo and pax.

It was a wonderful experience to fly over the north pole, indeed !!!

Best regards
No matter how you fly...just never get your wings clipped !
 
fn1001
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RE: LH Axes DUS-NRT Before It Starts

Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:41 am

As far as I remember from Dusseldorf to FRA you have every hour at least one direct high speed train that needs about 90 minutes. This time-frame you also need from NRT to Tokyo downtown. From FRA you have JAL, ANA, LH to NRT and the 787 to HND.

Is there also a code-share agreement between the German Rail and LH for the segment FRA-Dusseldorf, like they have to Stuttgart and Heidelberg?

Sorry if this has already been answered, what is the point of the route DUS- NRT? If it is for those businessman who can not afford the 90 minutes in a train to FRA, then the route should go to HND, right? Or is it for the budget travelers who don't want to pay for the train?
Mai bine să-ţi fie rău decît să-ţi pară rău.
 
leftyboarder
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RE: LH Axes DUS-NRT Before It Starts

Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:41 am

Quoting FN1001 (Reply 7):
Sorry if this has already been answered, what is the point of the route DUS- NRT?

I second that. LH already flies from MUC and FRA. For a country 1/25th the size of the US, a third gateway to Japan seems overdoing it, even with all the business traffic. It's not like there aren't enough connection opportunities on LH or Star partners. Smart move to cancel before inauguration rather than starting it, flying for a few months and then canceling - saves face.
 
MAH4546
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RE: LH Axes DUS-NRT Before It Starts

Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:02 am

Quoting FN1001 (Reply 7):
Sorry if this has already been answered, what is the point of the route DUS- NRT? If it is for those businessman who can not afford the 90 minutes in a train to FRA, then the route should go to HND, right? Or is it for the budget travelers who don't want to pay for the train?

Dusseldorf is home to the largest Japanese immigrant community in Europe.
a.
 
Burkhard
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RE: LH Axes DUS-NRT Before It Starts

Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:27 am

Quoting 744lover (Reply 3):
Something that has been on my mind for some time is why LH has A330 and A343 configured with exactly the same number of seats 8 / 48 / 165 (at least according to seatguru)? Number of cockpit and cabin crew is the same when we compare a same route... So, what's the deal?

These A340s are already paid for - and at those times they were new the A333 had far less range/payload as today. So the last year LH increased its fleet of A340 by taking those with two engines. It still is cheaper to use paid for A340s whcih use more fuel than new A330 which need less fuel - and the flexibility this brings is for free.

Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 8):
Quoting FN1001 (Reply 7):
Sorry if this has already been answered, what is the point of the route DUS- NRT?

I second that. LH already flies from MUC and FRA. For a country 1/25th the size of the US, a third gateway to Japan seems overdoing it, even with all the business traffic. It's not like there aren't enough connection opportunities on LH or Star partners. Smart move to cancel before inauguration rather than starting it, flying for a few months and then canceling - saves face.

There really is a big Japanese community in DUS - so a connection DUS-Japan should work. But the current state of the Japaneese economy is faible, and Japaneese people love to fly on Japaneese airlines - they are home earlier. So I always wondered - since Japan-Germany is a JV anyways, if it would not make more sense ANA flies to DUS ( the 788 is the ideal aircraft for that) and LH takes more of the flights ex FRA/MUC .
 
godbless
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RE: LH Axes DUS-NRT Before It Starts

Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:54 am

Does ANA still have the airport busses driving passengers from DUS to FRA in time to reach their flights to NRT?

Didn't they also serve DUS in the past, or was that JL?
 
vfw614
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RE: LH Axes DUS-NRT Before It Starts

Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:10 pm

Quoting FN1001 (Reply 7):
Is there also a code-share agreement between the German Rail and LH for the segment FRA-Dusseldorf, like they have to Stuttgart and Heidelberg?

No, "AIRail" is only between FRA and Cologne / Stuttgart. Heidelberg is a bus service, for Düsseldorf, one has to travel on a rail ticket. Trains with a Lufthansa compartment are only hourly, whereas there are much more trains without a Lufthansa compartment. Since it is no longer possible to check in luggage in Cologne and Stuttgart, the only real advantage is that Lufthansa has to reprotect you if there is a problem with the train service. Other than that, a regular "rail&fly" ticket gives much better flexibility for roughly the same price as the "AIRail" tag on to a FRA flight costs.

Quoting godbless (Reply 11):
Does ANA still have the airport busses driving passengers from DUS to FRA in time to reach their flights to NRT?

Yes, they do:
http://www.ana.co.jp/wws/japan/e/loc...t/service/limousine/fra/index.html

Difficult to understand why one would use the slow bus instead of the fast train, but I guess Japanese pax feel more at home this way.

Interesting, by the way, that the bus serive can only be used by NRT passengers and not by HND pax.

Quoting godbless (Reply 11):
Didn't they also serve DUS in the past, or was that JL?

That was JL.

[Edited 2012-03-02 04:13:30]
 
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Semaex
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RE: LH Axes DUS-NRT Before It Starts

Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:53 pm

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 10):
if it would not make more sense ANA flies to DUS ( the 788 is the ideal aircraft for that) and LH takes more of the flights ex FRA/MUC .

Good point, but given there are far more "prestigious" or "viable" routes the 788 could fly ex NRT I don't think it's going to happen any time soon. Maybe if they start getting more frames. That would be nice.
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
 
vinniewinnie
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Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:23 am

RE: LH Axes DUS-NRT Before It Starts

Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:33 pm

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 12):
No, "AIRail" is only between FRA and Cologne / Stuttgart. Heidelberg is a bus service, for Düsseldorf, one has to travel on a rail ticket. Trains with a Lufthansa compartment are only hourly, whereas there are much more trains without a Lufthansa compartment. Since it is no longer possible to check in luggage in Cologne and Stuttgart, the only real advantage is that Lufthansa has to reprotect you if there is a problem with the train service. Other than that, a regular "rail&fly" ticket gives much better flexibility for roughly the same price as the "AIRail" tag on to a FRA flight costs.

That's interesting. a bit off-topic what did they discontinue the luggage service?
 
fraT
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RE: LH Axes DUS-NRT Before It Starts

Fri Mar 02, 2012 7:52 pm

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 2):
Two important pieces of information are that LH

- has not axed the route as such, but postponed its start until 2013 (at least officially).
- will not replace the A330s at DUS with A340s.

Any link for the second point?
AFAIK the DUS flights to North America will stay on the 343.
 
Viscount724
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RE: LH Axes DUS-NRT Before It Starts

Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:07 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9):
Dusseldorf is home to the largest Japanese immigrant community in Europe.

I think it's third after London and Paris, based on references in a few other sites. Also quite a few Koreans in DUS.
 
cityairline
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RE: LH Axes DUS-NRT Before It Starts

Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:34 am

Quoting joost (Reply 5):
It has to do with flexibility while using the fleet. With identically configured 333/343, you have the possibility to swap aircraft easily.
Quoting joost (Reply 5):
When operating an extensive schedule (like LH does), this really comes to fruition. It makes it possible to sometimes fly an A-market (6-8 hours) route on a 343 when it fits between two long (10+ hours) flights, but to also use the 333 on these A-market routes whenever possible.

Exactly. I just recently booked myself with LH on GOT-FRA-AUH-FRA-GOT, where the outbound flight is an A333 while the homebound flight is an A343.

/Alex
I don't fly to live, I live to fly...
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: LH Axes DUS-NRT Before It Starts

Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:43 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):
I think it's third after London and Paris, based on references in a few other sites. Also quite a few Koreans in DUS.

Whatever it was, it hasn't seemed to help bookings on this planned route which is a shame.

Given the amount of competitive pressures though, its not a huge surprise.
 
Glareskin
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RE: LH Axes DUS-NRT Before It Starts

Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:52 am

Clearly the demand should be there. But the circumstances must be good in order to make it a success. Departure and arrival times should be good and it should have something extra. I would suggest to fly to HND. That would even attract pax from FRA and MUC. And I agree that NH would even have better chances.
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
 
Joost
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RE: LH Axes DUS-NRT Before It Starts

Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:59 am

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 10):
It still is cheaper to use paid for A340s whcih use more fuel than new A330 which need less fuel - and the flexibility this brings is for free.

Of course not. For individual scheduling decisions, direct (marginal) operating costs is the only relevant factor. Here, the 333 is cheaper than the 343, on both fuel and maintenance.

Fixed (recurring) costs (interest / lease, insurance) are only relevant once you decide on acquiring or keeping the aircraft, not when deciding what aircraft will be used when making a schedule.

The other way around: if you need to choose a spare aircraft, would you pick the new 333 or old 343? In that case, the old 343 is the better choice for a spare aircraft, as the 333 will consume less fuel when flying the route.

Once you have bought or long-term leased an aircraft, for scheduling decisions, it makes no difference if the monthly rates are low or high, as you need to pay them anyhow.

For the NRT-DUS route, the 343 is the aircraft of choice as the 333 cannot do it with a reasonable payload anyway.

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 10):
There really is a big Japanese community in DUS - so a connection DUS-Japan should work. But the current state of the Japaneese economy is faible, and Japaneese people love to fly on Japaneese airlines - they are home earlier.

I believe this is valid for all nationalities. When looking at air fares, departures on the 'home carrier' are always more expensive than foreign carriers, for the simple reason that many people are willing to pay a premium to fly on their 'own' carrier.

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 10):
So I always wondered - since Japan-Germany is a JV anyways, if it would not make more sense ANA flies to DUS ( the 788 is the ideal aircraft for that) and LH takes more of the flights ex FRA/MUC .

This could indeed make more sense, also as the 788 is offering slightly less seats than the 343. Also, for a Japanese carrier, a HND route is more feasible, as the 23:00-07:00 operating hour timeline works better for Japan-originating flights than for Europe-originating flights.

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