Checo77
Topic Author
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Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 11:39 am

CSA Czech Airlines To Axe More Routes

Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:37 am

Hi all,

CSA Czech Airlines continue in their axing. After leaving BEY and LCA, now the airline will stop flying from PRG to:

LJU, TXL, HEL, SKP, SOF, OSL, ATH.

However, they will keep their codes in flights to LJU and TXL and the flight will be operated by Job Air.

As soon as OK leaves the flight, QS will start flying to ATH and LCA. SOF will be overtaken by Bulgaria Air.

Super sad to see this. I almost cried. I used to work for OK and this is terrible news. Especially hate to see HEL leaving, which continuously was operated by OK for 64 years!

On the other side, OK will add new flight to GVA and VCE. Also to UFA and GOJ (Nizhnij Novgorod) in Russia.

OK is starting to be more and more Russia-centric. Its definitely a good market to expand to, but I raise this question:
After leaving so many western cities, are the flights to Russia sustainable? I am not sure if there is enought point-to-point market between Russian cities and PRG. I think OK would succedd in Russia if connections would be available in PRG.

As being Czech myself, I don´t believe in OK anymore. My guess is it will follow MA soon. Which would be a shame for one of the oldest airlines in the world...

Adam

[Edited 2012-03-02 20:50:56]
Czech Boeing lover living in Lima
 
IndianicWorld
Posts: 2799
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2001 11:32 am

RE: CSA Czech Airlines To Axe More Routes

Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:41 am

Is there anything left in their network. They have been cutting left, right and centre.

People are saying that OneWorld are struggling but Skyteam arent exactly going that well with OK cutting routes and AF struggling. As a whole so many carriers are fighting for survival.

Interesting times ahead.
 
Checo77
Topic Author
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RE: CSA Czech Airlines To Axe More Routes

Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:46 am

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 1):
Is there anything left in their network. They have been cutting left, right and centre.

Soon, what will be left are flight to Russia. For me and for 99% of Czechs- totally unacceptable. And I know that the flights to Western cities were making money, I used to work for OK, I know the numbers. Its a controlled process to terminate the airline. Sad sad sad.

Adam
Czech Boeing lover living in Lima
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: CSA Czech Airlines To Axe More Routes

Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:59 am

Quoting Checo77 (Reply 2):
Soon, what will be left are flight to Russia. For me and for 99% of Czechs- totally unacceptable. And I know that the flights to Western cities were making money, I used to work for OK, I know the numbers. Its a controlled process to terminate the airline. Sad sad sad.

Whos trying to terminate the airline though? Is it a political move, in a similar way that Malev seemed to just become a toy for the government for so long?
 
MOW
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RE: CSA Czech Airlines To Axe More Routes

Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:27 am

OK is going where the yields are - Russia, the land of single-designation international routes and non-existing LCCs. And PRG is a huge destination itself. IIRC, it is either number 3 or 4 top flow out of Moscow, so OK doesn't have to rely much on intra-European connecting traffic.
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: CSA Czech Airlines To Axe More Routes

Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:47 am

Quoting MOW (Reply 4):
OK is going where the yields are - Russia, the land of single-designation international routes and non-existing LCCs. And PRG is a huge destination itself. IIRC, it is either number 3 or 4 top flow out of Moscow, so OK doesn't have to rely much on intra-European connecting traffic.

All well and good but it leaves an airline very vulnerable if things suddenly change.

Having a broader offering is a wiser move, which gives some security in being able to react to changing conditions.

PRG actually seems to have lost some of its spark over the last few years, likely because it is no longer an up and coming destination but is now very common in its offering. Trends like this are very common in the fickle world of travel.
 
JU068
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RE: CSA Czech Airlines To Axe More Routes

Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:10 am

What can I say, this is totally sad. I was very dissappointed when they decided to leave Belgrade as they have been flying there since 1945! It is indeed a shame to see an airline as old as CSA go this way.
I wonder what market are they aiming at in Russia? Could it be that there is enough O&D market (tourists) and some limited connecting possibilities? Then again, like mentioned before where will they offer connections to when they have axed so many destinations?

With so many destinations being cut, what will happen with the extra workforce and with the aircraft that used to operate these routes?

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 3):
in a similar way that Malev seemed to just become a toy for the government for so long?

The reason why Malev went bankrupt was not because it was a toy for the government but rather because the current CEO of Wizz Air, Jozsef Varadi, signed a nasty leasing deal with the lessor which had put a massive burden on the finances of the airline. For example, any engine overhaul (no matter how extensive it is) will cost at least €3 million, or that Malev had to return the aircraft in the same condition it had leased them. Mind you, the lease was for 10 years! This added billions of additional costs for Malev.
Then during the privatization, the Russians did not invest a single cent in the airline but rather have taken a loan for €102 million, of which Malev could only use €18 million etc etc.
The Russians have mismanaged the airline to such an extent that they had to contact the Hungarian government for help. On top of it all they have conducted a really bad re-nationalization which crippled any further developpment within the airline. So if anything, Varadi and the Russians are responsible for Malev's demise, not the Hungarian government, at least not directly.
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: CSA Czech Airlines To Axe More Routes

Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:23 am

^^ I guess it all played out in many ways between many parties over the years. Malev struggled for quite a while and it was sad to see it fall.

In OK's case, it is likely also at a crossroads, with many challenges ahead. Lets hope the moves they are making work out for them.
 
LJ
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RE: CSA Czech Airlines To Axe More Routes

Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:23 am

Quoting Checo77 (Reply 2):

Soon, what will be left are flight to Russia. For me and for 99% of Czechs- totally unacceptable. And I know that the flights to Western cities were making money, I used to work for OK, I know the numbers. Its a controlled process to terminate the airline. Sad sad sad.

Thus you prefer that they go bankrupt by offering destinations which they think they can't serve profitable? Given the influx of LCCs in the neighborhood I doubt OK has much choice but to concentrate on markets where they have less competition.

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 1):

People are saying that OneWorld are struggling but Skyteam arent exactly going that well with OK cutting routes and AF struggling. As a whole so many carriers are fighting for survival.

Difference between oneworld and Skyteam is that Skyteam has another partner in CEE (Tarom) and Alitalia also serves the Balkan.
 
JU068
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RE: CSA Czech Airlines To Axe More Routes

Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:32 am

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 7):
^^ I guess it all played out in many ways between many parties over the years. Malev struggled for quite a while and it was sad to see it fall.

It was a sad moment for all of us in the Balkans as they had a great network and good connections via Budapest.

Quoting LJ (Reply 8):
Difference between oneworld and Skyteam is that Skyteam has another partner in CEE (Tarom) and Alitalia also serves the Balkan.

Yes but Tarom's network in the Balkans is not that impressive and they can only offer connections from the Balkans to the Middle East, where they are competing with Turkish Airlines, which has recently announced major regional expansion. Not to mention that Tarom relies on government aid to cover some of its losses. With Wizz Air moving to Otopeni and increasing its presence in Bucharest by 75% I am wondering what the management of Tarom will do.
As far as Alitalia goes, they are present but they are nowhere where the old Alitalia was. They are expanding in the Balkans through Air One but that is not the same.
The Balkans are Star dominated and Skyteam will have to do a lot in order to get some of the market. The Balkans in general have a strong diaspora in North America hence why Star Alliance made sure that it gets a lot of feed from the region...
 
BestWestern
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RE: CSA Czech Airlines To Axe More Routes

Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:08 am

Quoting ju068 (Reply 6):
Then during the privatization, the Russians did not invest a single cent in the airline but rather have taken a loan for €102 million, of which Malev could only use €18 million etc etc.

Welcome to the world of Venture Capital, where the loan taken out to buy the company is put onto the company books.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
LJ
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RE: CSA Czech Airlines To Axe More Routes

Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:12 am

Quoting ju068 (Reply 9):
The Balkans are Star dominated and Skyteam will have to do a lot in order to get some of the market. The Balkans in general have a strong diaspora in North America hence why Star Alliance made sure that it gets a lot of feed from the region...

Skyteam probably won't as there isn't much money to be made on VFR business (usually). However compared to oneworld they still have more presence (if Tarom and CSA survive). Star is the natural winner as, as far as I know, the business ties between the Balkan and Germany/Austria are much better than any other country in Europe.

BTW I just noticed that AF still flies to LJU (wasn't this destinations to be axed by AF?). If you then look to CSA I wonder what the purpose is for CSA to have flights to LJU (from a Skyteam's perspective)

Quoting ju068 (Reply 6):
Then again, like mentioned before where will they offer connections to when they have axed so many destinations?

OK is a Skyteam alternative for those not willing to transfer in Russia if they want to go to these Russian destinations.
 
JU068
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RE: CSA Czech Airlines To Axe More Routes

Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:24 am

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 10):
Welcome to the world of Venture Capital, where the loan taken out to buy the company is put onto the company books.

That is not the problem, the problem is that the Russians did not allow Malev to take more than €18 million from the loan. Now, where did the rest of the €84 million go?  
Quoting LJ (Reply 11):
Skyteam probably won't as there isn't much money to be made on VFR business (usually). However compared to oneworld they still have more presence (if Tarom and CSA survive). Star is the natural winner as, as far as I know, the business ties between the Balkan and Germany/Austria are much better than any other country in Europe.

If I am not mistaken Jat Airways and KLM signed a codeshare agreement in March 2009 (or 2010) so that Jat could feed KLM's network to the Americas. As soon as the deal was signed passenger numbers between Belgrade and Amsterdam rose by 35%! This deal was made as Jat and Lufthansa have had a difficult past, best example is that deal Jat Airways had with Emirates in Hamburg, when Lufthansa forced them to cancel it. The deal with KLM was the best thing to happen to Jat, the route is performing very well, actually so well that they are cancelling their triangular service Belgrade-Amsterdam-Brussels-Belgrade and making Amsterdam a direct service.

Jat Airways has a much closer relationship with Skyteam members than with Star Alliance. Lufthansa has cancelled all of their codeshares with Jat, while Jat cooperates with Aeroflot, Tarom, Alitalia and KLM. Strangely enough they never did with CSA.
So I wouldn't be so sure that Skyteam is not looking to expand its influence in the region and get some of that VFR market.

As for oneworld, well Niki should be happy as now they will practically have a monopoly on all of their Balkan routes (
 
BestWestern
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RE: CSA Czech Airlines To Axe More Routes

Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:55 am

Quoting ju068 (Reply 12):
That is not the problem, the problem is that the Russians did not allow Malev to take more than €18 million from the loan. Now, where did the rest of the €84 million go?

It went to repay the investors! The majority of VC's are money grabbers maximise profits for themselves, not run the business.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
soyuz
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RE: CSA Czech Airlines To Axe More Routes

Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:19 am

Oh dear. Czech aviation server letectvi.cz is quoting Czech media (Mladá Fronta Dnes) that The Cz govt is in a dialogue with Russia to void an agreement from 1966 which stipulates that air transport between any two airports in the respective countries can only be served by 1 airline from each side (currently mostly OK and SU). If this goes through, it'll kill off CSA's last remaining stronghold and will most likely be the final nail in this old and once expansive, top class airline's coffin.
 
Tobias2702
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RE: CSA Czech Airlines To Axe More Routes

Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:12 am

Quoting Checo77 (Thread starter):
However, they will keep their codes in flights to LJU and TXL and the flight will be operated by Job Air.

What's Job Air? Do you mean Central Connect Airlines? Because they seem to operate the TXL-PRG flights from 25 March. They are operating Saabs, so it's an inferior product compared to CSA's ATRs that were mostly deployed on that route.

After BUD, I can again see Air Berlin stepping in to fill the void.
PA, AF, UK, BA, AB, DL, LH, FR, BD, A3, EZY, DY //// A319/320/346, B733/735/73G/738/744/763, AT4, 146, CR2, DH4
 
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OA260
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RE: CSA Czech Airlines To Axe More Routes

Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:45 am

This is such a shame . CSA were a great airline and watching this decline over the last years is really sad to see.
 
B747forever
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RE: CSA Czech Airlines To Axe More Routes

Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:38 am

It is really sad to see yet another eastern European airline struggling.

Quoting Checo77 (Reply 2):
. Its a controlled process to terminate the airline. Sad sad sad.

What is the point of doing this?



[Edited 2012-03-03 03:39:41]
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
tomcat
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RE: CSA Czech Airlines To Axe More Routes

Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:51 am

What about this pretty strange move announced last year of OK investing in Prague airport? Where are they now, what the plan supporting this investment. This is a pretty unique case in Europe I must say and it doesn't really make sense for a declining airline. Unless the intention was to slow down the growth of competitors at Prague airport?
 
lychemsa
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RE: CSA Czech Airlines To Axe More Routes

Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:49 pm

Glad they will be flying to GVA. I hope they will offer reasonable "One way" fares which LX do not.

They used to fly to GVA. EasyJet stopped GVA to Prague flights.
 
BestWestern
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RE: CSA Czech Airlines To Axe More Routes

Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:57 pm

Quoting lychemsa (Reply 19):
EasyJet stopped GVA to Prague flights

If U2 cant make a point to point route work, how does a weak and wounded CZ expect to?
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
9w748capt
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RE: CSA Czech Airlines To Axe More Routes

Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:05 pm

Quoting Checo77 (Thread starter):
Also to UFA

Just out of curiousity, are there any other similar cities - where the city name matches the 3-character airport code exactly? Kind of cool  
 
Viscount724
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RE: CSA Czech Airlines To Axe More Routes

Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:18 pm

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 21):
Quoting Checo77 (Thread starter):
Also to UFA

Just out of curiousity, are there any other similar cities - where the city name matches the 3-character airport code exactly?

The island of Yap in Micronesia (code YAP) is one. I think there are a few others.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UY-NaZ6jyQ
 
ozzietukker
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RE: CSA Czech Airlines To Axe More Routes

Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:28 pm

The problem for the airlines in the Eastern European country's is simply they not have not enough demand for traffic to European destinations because of the budget airlines like Easyjet and Wizzair who with their low prices pressing the yields down.
Passengers, choosing low fares over comfort, and to be honest, for a flight from Prague - Amsterdam, which takes about 1 hour, do you want to pay a premium for a small snack and beverage or can you do without?

The Western European airlines are struggeling also, but they do have a big fleet serving destinations beyond the range of the budget airlines, and since the failure of Oasis Hong Kong and Air Asia X for the longhaul direct routes, although the middle eastern carriers are a concern.