kl911
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Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights

Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:16 pm

Ryanair is forced to xxl 13 flights the next two weeks because suddenly the Hungarian borderpolice demand the crew to pass customs on their 25min turnarounds if the flight originates in the UK or Ireland.

I think this is another stunning idiotic decision by our President as this current Hungarian government is trying to get as much isolated as possible from the EU.

There is not a single other airport in Europe where this is nescesary, its just not needed.


Quote from the Ryanair website:

http://www.ryanair.com/hu/news/budapest-flight-cancelations-3-16-mar


RYANAIR TO CANCEL 13 BUDAPEST FLIGHTS OVER THE NEXT TWO WEEKS, AS BUDAPEST BORDER CONTROL REFUSE PERMISSION FOR FLIGHTS TO DEPART

Ryanair, Hungary’s favourite airline, today (Fri 2nd Mar) announced that it would cancel 13 return flights to/from Budapest over the next two weeks (see below), as the Border Control Police at Budapest Airport insist that some Ryanair pilots and cabin crew get off the aircraft and clear through immigration on 25 minute turnarounds, despite the fact that these crews live and work in Budapest. There is no EU requirement for such immigration clearance for pilots and cabin crew on turnaround and this stupid procedure is not required or implemented at any of Ryanair’s 170 other EU airports
 
DALCE
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RE: Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights

Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:20 pm

Probably the government is looking to (re)-start a national airline and they don't want FR to increase too much at BUD. How to prevent this....Make flying impossible from a practical side. This is just politics....nothing more, nothing less
Honestly.....I find it rather funny and very very inventive 
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kl911
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RE: Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights

Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:24 pm

Quoting DALCE (Reply 1):
Probably the government is looking to (re)-start a national airline

Its 2012, why would an EU government wants to start its own airline? I though governments would have learned by now that they should stick to ruling a country instead of running an airline.
 
richardw
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RE: Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights

Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:28 pm

Are they just doing this to ryanair and not easyJet or BA?
 
Pe@rson
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RE: Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights

Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:30 pm

What a weird development!

Quoting richardw (Reply 3):

Are they just doing this to ryanair and not easyJet or BA?

Indeed.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
DALCE
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RE: Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights

Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:30 pm

I fully agree that it is complete BullS**t. In these days it is rather unheard for such ideas and moves in Good Ol' Europe.
But still I think the governments of some mainly eastern-european countries still might think slightly different.
Basicallly I agree on most if not all your points, but still I'm having a good laugh about it, mainly because it is FR 
I wonder if the government would do the same for other UK airlines. Probably not......
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777klm
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RE: Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights

Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:34 pm

Does this same rule apply to the crew of other airlines -such as BA, U2 and EI- if they're on a turnaround? Do they comply to this rule?
Edit: Question already asked.

[Edited 2012-03-05 08:37:22]
Next flight: AMS - TLV - AMS
 
JU068
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RE: Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights

Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:39 pm

Well, I think this has more to do with the relationship between Ryanair and Hungary rather than the Hungarian government trying to re-start their own airline. If they were so keen on re-launching a national carrier then they would have sabotaged Wizz Air as well. Let us not forget under what circumstances Ryanair returned to Budapest and how much they are paying.
Not to mention Ryanair's arrogance of selling tickets before the Hungarians agreed to give in to their demands. This is just the Hungarian border police bullying Ryanair. I see nothing wrong with it, especially not since it's a tactic used by Ryanair.
 
richardw
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RE: Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights

Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:42 pm

Quoting ju068 (Reply 7):
This is just the Hungarian border police bullying Ryanair

What is their long term gain? or is it just short term?
 
JU068
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RE: Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights

Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:48 pm

Quoting richardw (Reply 8):
What is their long term gain? or is it just short term?

I guess that the initial shock of Malev's demise is gone and that the airport has overcome the initial challenges. Meaning that now they do not need to be bullied by Ryanair and to give them the extremly low charges at the airport.
Airlines have added capacity and frequencies to Budapest to compensate for what was lost.

Budapest airport was reluctant to accepted the terms Ryanair offered. My guess is that Hungary has little to lose if Ryanair is to withdraw from the airport. After all, it would not be their first time, if the airport survived in 2010 then I do not see a reason why it wouldn't in 2012.
 
roseflyer
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RE: Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights

Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:08 pm

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 4):
Quoting richardw (Reply 3):

Are they just doing this to ryanair and not easyJet or BA?

Indeed.

If I understand it correctly, the reason why it only applies to Ryanair is that they have Budapest based crews. The same requirement existed for Malev crews if they did a turn through Budapest from a non schengen country.

Ryanair can simply use crews not based in Budapest for flights to non schengen countries if they are turning around and not swapping out crews in Budapest. Ryanair can easily work around the problem, but they choose to be vocal and cry foul. I understand disagreeing with the policy, but I don't think canceling flights is a fair protest.

Ryanair arbitrarily decided to stop complying to the procedure. Regardless of how unusual it is, I think it makes sense that their flights were denied permission to depart.
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kl911
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RE: Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights

Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:08 pm

Quoting ju068 (Reply 7):
This is just the Hungarian border police bullying Ryanair. I see nothing wrong with it, especially not since it's a tactic used by Ryanair.

What a load of ....... . What business the airport does with Ryanair has nothing to do with the government. Its business with business, and if the FR tactics worked its good for FR, and for the passengers.

Please leave your FR bashing out of this discussion.

Quoting ju068 (Reply 9):
My guess is that Hungary has little to lose if Ryanair is to withdraw from the airport.

Wrong again, Hunagry has finally access to tickets which are affordable for a large group of people who could never ever afford Malev.

Quoting ju068 (Reply 9):
Airlines have added capacity and frequencies to Budapest to compensate for what was lost.

Wrong here too. Nobody has added flights to MAD, AMS etc.. besides that FR is going after a leisure market, Crete, Rhodes, Sicily etc etc.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 10):
Regardless of how unusual it is, I think it makes sense that their flights were denied permission to depart.

Why? The crew would spend 25 minutes on the tarmac before departing again. Why get checked? Do that in the beginning and at the end of their shift when they have to pass customs anyway.

And indeed, why not Wizzair too? They are based in BUD too.

[Edited 2012-03-05 11:57:39 by srbmod]
 
roseflyer
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RE: Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights

Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:20 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 12):

Why? The crew would spend 25 minutes on the tarmac before departing again. Why get checked? Do that in the beginning and at the end of their shift when they have to pass customs anyway.

And indeed, why not Wizzair too? They are based in BUD too.

I am not arguing about whether it is a reasonable requirement or not. I am just stating that I am glad that the flights were not allowed to depart. A company should not be permitted to just violate a regulation that they do not agree with. Ryanair just stopped compliance effective March 1st. Before that they did comply. In an effort to save money, they violated a regulation. That is not a good thing in my mind at all.
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EBGflyer
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RE: Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights

Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:29 pm

Quoting DALCE (Reply 1):
Probably the government is looking to (re)-start a national airline and they don't want FR to increase too much at BUD

Probably not relaunching a national airline, but a bit of a protectionistic move in favour of Wizz Air who is in direct competition with Ryanair. Personally I have no problems with Ryanair getting harassed a bit as that is what they do to everybody else if they can get away with it.
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JU068
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RE: Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights

Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:36 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 11):
What a load of ....... . What business the airport does with Ryanair has nothing to do with the government. Its business with business, and if the FR tactics worked its good for FR, and for the passengers.

Please leave your FR bashing out of this discussion.

It's not Ryanair bashing, it seems to me that it's rather your blind support for Ryanair that is the problem here. Border police is usually provided by the police of the country or the army.
I am not sure if there are cases where this is granted to a private company, but as far as I remember Budapest airport has a proper police force, provided by the Hungarian government.

Quoting kl911 (Reply 11):
Wrong again, Hunagry has finally access to tickets which are affordable for a large group of people who could never ever afford Malev.

Blind support again, cheap tickets were available even before as Wizz Air and other low cost airlines operated from Budapest airport.

Quoting kl911 (Reply 11):
Wrong here too. Nobody has added flights to MAD, AMS etc.. besides that FR is going after a leisure market, Crete, Rhodes, Sicily etc etc.

Could you please concentrate on what I wrote, I wrote that airlines have added capacity (and flights) to compensate. I did not state that every single route Malev operated was launched. Your post about Amsterdam is pointless since in my sentance I have included the word ''capacity'', which means additional seats on the route, not flights.


Quoting EBGflyer (Reply 14):
Probably not relaunching a national airline, but a bit of a protectionistic move in favour of Wizz Air who is in direct competition with Ryanair. Personally I have no problems with Ryanair getting harassed a bit as that is what they do to everybody else if they can get away with it.

It will be interesting to see with the complaint Ryanair placed with the European Commission related to an issue with Wizz Air's ownership.

[Edited 2012-03-05 11:59:38 by srbmod]
 
PezySPU
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RE: Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights

Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:47 pm

So, this only applies to flights from Ireland and the UK. What's the big deal? It's not like FR only flies there...

Quoting DALCE (Reply 1):
Probably the government is looking to (re)-start a national airline and they don't want FR to increase too much at BUD.

By making them cancel 13 flights? Flights, not routes...

Quoting kl911 (Thread starter):
Ryanair, Hungary’s favourite airline
Quoting kl911 (Thread starter):
this stupid procedure

You got to love them  Big grin

[Edited 2012-03-05 10:59:45]
 
kl911
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RE: Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights

Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:57 pm

Quoting ju068 (Reply 15):
Your post about Amsterdam is pointless since in my sentance I have included the word ''capacity'', which means additional seats on the route, not flights.

Neither KLM nor Iberia added capacity to BUD.
 
roseflyer
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RE: Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights

Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:58 pm

Quoting EBGflyer (Reply 14):
Probably not relaunching a national airline, but a bit of a protectionistic move in favour of Wizz Air who is in direct competition with Ryanair. Personally I have no problems with Ryanair getting harassed a bit as that is what they do to everybody else if they can get away with it.

I don't see why it is favoritism. If anything it is favoritism for airlines that don't have crews based in Budapest, since they don't have to comply (why any country would try to push an airline from having crews based in its own country is completely nonsensical to me). Wizz Air has to do the same as Ryanair.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
JU068
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RE: Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights

Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:04 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 18):
Neither KLM nor Iberia added capacity to BUD.

Once again, read what I wrote, I did not specify which airlines nor which route saw an increase. I just said that there was an overall increase of flights and frequencies at the airport. You were the one to use Madrid and Amsterdam as examples, though I do not know if KLM is sending bigger aircraft I can say that you are wrong about Madrid since Wizz Air is adding additional 5 weekly flights.
You are presenting things as if Ryanair is the next best thing to happen to Budapest airport.
 
kl911
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RE: Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights

Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:37 pm

Quoting ju068 (Reply 20):
You are presenting things as if Ryanair is the next best thing to happen to Budapest airport.

No im not. Ryanair is the best thing to happen to a huge part of the Hungarian population who can now finally go on holiday abroad.  
 
B747forever
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RE: Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights

Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:00 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 21):
Ryanair is the best thing to happen to a huge part of the Hungarian population who can now finally go on holiday abroad.

It is on people like you, that believe Ryanair is always the cheapest option, that FR makes profits every year. When you add all the extra charges that FR have, they do not come out much cheaper than other carriers.
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ozzietukker
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RE: Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights

Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:09 pm

Ryanair might have some strong opinions.

But in this case Ryanair is fully in its right not to let their cabin crew undergo such stupid timeconsuming procedure.
The crew is not actually arriving in Hungary, but just staying on the plane for the next flight and thus not passing Hungarian borders. It would ofcourse be different if one crew member want to go inside the terminal for any reason, then normal immigration laws apply.

I am not saying Ryanair should ignore rules, and it is good that they were not allowed to depart since they knew those regulations where in place, the bigger question is why the Hungarian Authorities want these regulations in place, the procedure for not having to clear the crew to immigration at other airports is so the airline and crew not have to bother with immigration laws, otherwise you an airline would be restricted of the crew they can use on flights.
 
Joost
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RE: Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights

Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:10 pm

Quoting DALCE (Reply 5):

Does this same rule apply to the crew of other airlines -such as BA, U2 and EI- if they're on a turnaround? Do they comply to this rule?
Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 10):
If I understand it correctly, the reason why it only applies to Ryanair is that they have Budapest based crews. The same requirement existed for Malev crews if they did a turn through Budapest from a non schengen country.

It looks like it has to do with the following:

- When a crew flies (for example) BUD-STN-BUD-SKG-BUD, they leave the Schengen zone for the STN flight, and re-enter the Schengen zone for the SKG flight. I can see a (theoretical) reason why the border police wants to check pilots who left the Schengen zone; when they re-enter the Schengen zone they could theoretically have added a non-visa carrying pilot from Ireland. I can also understand that for practical reasons, the EU has made regulations that allow pilots to fly their segments without passing border control all the time.

- When BA, U2 or EI crew fly to BUD and back, they won't enter Schengen anyhow so they can return.

- W6 probably faces the same problem. But for example, they fly a route BUD-LTN-BUD-LTN-BUD, and then they don't need to check in the turnaround because they stay in the non-Schengen zone.

Quoting ju068 (Reply 7):
Let us not forget under what circumstances Ryanair returned to Budapest and how much they are paying.

Aren't they paying exactly the same as W6? Besides that, at least they are paying. Unlike MA.

Quoting ju068 (Reply 7):
This is just the Hungarian border police bullying Ryanair. I see nothing wrong with it, especially not since it's a tactic used by Ryanair.

Governments purposely 'bullying' private enterprises is disastrous for any free market economy. If companies don't obey the law, sue them in court for an independent judge. Don't bully. It's extremely bad for the reputation of a country.

Quoting ju068 (Reply 9):
My guess is that Hungary has little to lose if Ryanair is to withdraw from the airport. After all, it would not be their first time, if the airport survived in 2010 then I do not see a reason why it wouldn't in 2012.

In 2010 there was still Malev and they cancelled 4 routes. Now there is no Malev. The airport is in a very bad position, having just fired hundreds of people following MA's demise. FR withdrawing would be a disaster. It would also give W6 a unique bargaining position towards the airport, which is even worse for the airport.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 10):
Ryanair can simply use crews not based in Budapest for flights to non schengen countries if they are turning around and not swapping out crews in Budapest. Ryanair can easily work around the problem, but they choose to be vocal and cry foul.

Now, when they would start using crews from other countries than Hungary, who is actually losing? Indeed, the Hungarian employees.
 
Pe@rson
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RE: Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights

Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:18 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 20):
When you add all the extra charges that FR have, they do not come out much cheaper than other carriers.

Per FR's 2011 annual report, its average revenue per passenger - including fare and all ancillaries - was €50.37. This was achieved by dividing its total revenue (scheduled and ancillary) of €3,629,500,000 by its total passengers of 72,062,659. In comparison, EZY's avergae fare in its 2011 FY - including fare and all ancillaries - was £63.34 (about €75) calculated by dividing total revenue (£3,452,000,000 divided by total passengers (54,500,000). So, EZY's average all-in to-pay amount was about 50% higher than FR's.

[Edited 2012-03-05 12:21:31]
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
PEET7G
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RE: Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights

Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:21 pm

Ok, let's put things into perspective here. There is no bullying going on here, and (I know it is hard to believe) no political motive behind this...just the usual FR making up their own rules, and spitting and whining when finally someone comes along and forces them to comply with EU-Schengen (and not Hungarian) legislation.

The problem here is that authorities at BUD simply monitor the flights coming in and out of BUD and when a plane is flying a V route (something like MAN-BUD-FKB-BUD-MAN) where one leg is within the Schengen zone while the other is not, legislation demand the crew to pass border control at the point of entry into Schengen zone (which in this case is BUD airport) since they are going to fly an intra-Schengen route. It is very logical and the only thing that can be blamed on the Hungarian Border Police is that they are not willing to go to each and every plane on the tarmac and carry out the paperwork on board the FR planes. It is only these cases that are not to the taste of FR, but these routines are obligatory for every crew doing such routes, no matter if it is W6, FR or anyone else...and it was obligatory for MA crews too, and it is obligatory not just at BUD airport. The process might differ, but the rules are the same.

added:

Quoting joost (Reply 22):
It looks like it has to do with the following

It seems you where faster than me, but very well put joost, finally someone who actually understands the issue before claiming BS on everything  checkmark 

[Edited 2012-03-05 12:25:02]
Peet7G
 
kl911
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RE: Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights

Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:40 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 20):
When you add all the extra charges that FR have, they do not come out much cheaper than other carriers.

Trust me, I dont need to pay extra charges. Just carry on luggage and go.   so a 25 euro return ticket is really only 31 euro for me, incl creditcard charge.
 
B747forever
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RE: Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights

Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:42 pm

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 23):
Per FR's 2011 annual report, its average revenue per passenger - including fare and all ancillaries - was €50.37

And by how much has this fare increased for the last few years?
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kl911
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RE: Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights

Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:45 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 26):
And by how much has this fare increased for the last few years?

?? Its about 2011, just 2 months ago...
 
Pe@rson
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RE: Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights

Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:46 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 26):
And by how much has this fare increased for the last few years?

You could of course go and do it yourself! It increased from just over €44-odd (I forget the exact figure) in 2010, although its passenger volume still increased 8%. EZY's grew from about £60.90 (about €70). I haven't looked into years before that. Regardless, the fare differential is still considerable between the two.

[Edited 2012-03-05 12:50:32]
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
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RE: Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights

Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:38 pm

Quoting kl911 (Thread starter):
Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights
Quoting kl911 (Thread starter):
RYANAIR TO CANCEL 13 BUDAPEST FLIGHTS

Seems some spin is being applied, methinks...

I won't be crying for Ryanair, meself...

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 24):
Ok, let's put things into perspective here. There is no bullying going on here, and (I know it is hard to believe) no political motive behind this...just the usual FR making up their own rules, and spitting and whining when finally someone comes along and forces them to comply with EU-Schengen (and not Hungarian) legislation.

  
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aerokiwi
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RE: Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights

Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:38 pm

Quoting joost (Reply 22):
- When a crew flies (for example) BUD-STN-BUD-SKG-BUD, they leave the Schengen zone for the STN flight, and re-enter the Schengen zone for the SKG flight. I can see a (theoretical) reason why the border police wants to check pilots who left the Schengen zone; when they re-enter the Schengen zone they could theoretically have added a non-visa carrying pilot from Ireland. I can also understand that for practical reasons, the EU has made regulations that allow pilots to fly their segments without passing border control all the time.

But they don't actually enter any zone if you stay airside at the terminal and don't pass through immigration, right?

So in actual fact, aren't the flight crew in international territory the whole time? Presuming, of course, that they just stay ion the plane or in the gate area between flights.

If so, then the logic for processing at BUD is seriously flawed.
 
RussianJet
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RE: Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights

Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:00 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 25):
Trust me, I dont need to pay extra charges. Just carry on luggage and go. so a 25 euro return ticket is really only 31 euro for me, incl creditcard charge.

Indeed. Just got a return to Finland from the UK for about fifty pounds all in. I defy anybody to find a fare that cheap on using another carrier. The reality is that the airline would have put cheap fares within the reach of many people who couldn't previously afford to fly, particularly in a country like Hungary with fairly limited options.
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SonomaFlyer
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RE: Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights

Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:36 pm

No matter whether the crew left the "zone," if they are doing a 25 min turn around to go right back out of BUD (especially staying on the a/c), what is the point of mandating a clearance? I certainly understand the stated rule but if the personnel in question aren't passing through the check point and in fact aren't even leaving the plane, there's no need to delay the outbound flight for a pointless bureaucratic exercise.
 
UALWN
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RE: Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights

Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:54 pm

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 32):

What happens in the US to a pilot flying, say, MEX - IAH - DFW? Does he have to go through customs and immigration at IAH? If so, it would be the same as for a pilot going STN (non-Schengen) - BUD (Shengen) - HHN (Shengen).
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SonomaFlyer
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RE: Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights

Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:29 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 33):

I am certainly no fan of RyanAir as a business model but BUD/Hungary is in the wrong on this one.

I don't think a US-Mexico comparison that is an apt analogy.

First, Hungary is part of the European Union. So are the other countries listed for the affected flights, including the UK. The U.S. and Mexico are not part of a North American Union. Flight crews flying from a foreign country to the US and to an additional destination within the U.S. are accorded plenty of time to clear customs. Such isn't the case for the RyanAir crews.

Second, side agreements are made all the time between FR and individual states on flights between non Schengen countries. What happened here is the Hungarian border police are just being bureaucratic and the government needs to see the big picture and realize that FR is a net benefit for their people and economy.

To use the Schengen accord (if that is the hang up) as a basis for the decision is narrow minded at best. This is especially true since those crews could always be subject to clearances when they end their trip in BUD and deplane to go home.
 
AWACSooner
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RE: Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights

Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:53 pm

While I think this is stupidity on the part of the govt, I can't help but laugh because FR is finally on the receiving end of the bullying they've been dishing out for years to various govts and airports.
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights

Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:00 am

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 35):

While I think this is stupidity on the part of the govt, I can't help but laugh because FR is finally on the receiving end of the bullying they've been dishing out for years to various govts and airports.

I can't argue with that but this decision could go far beyond FR to other airlines which could serve BUD.
 
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RE: Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights

Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:37 am

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 34):
I don't think a US-Mexico comparison that is an apt analogy.

Why not? There's a border between the UK and Hungary, while there's no border between Hungary and, say, Germany, just as there is a border between Mexico and the US, and there are no borders within the US. When one enters the US from abroad, one has to go through customs and immigration at the first port of entry. In the same way, when one enters the Schengen area from a non-Schengen country (be it Burkina Faso or the UK: it's exactly the same), one has to clear customs and immigration at the first port of entry.

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 34):
Flight crews flying from a foreign country to the US and to an additional destination within the U.S. are accorded plenty of time to clear customs. Such isn't the case for the RyanAir crews.

But that's solely FR's problem. They could allocate more time. WN also has 25 minute turnarounds. The moment they start flying to Mexico, say SJD - LAX - SMF, they will have to allow more time for the turnaround at LAX.
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RE: Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights

Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:40 am

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 17):
If anything it is favoritism for airlines that don't have crews based in Budapest, since they don't have to comply (why any country would try to push an airline from having crews based in its own country is completely nonsensical to me).

That was my thought. We'll make flights difficult if you employ our people?!?

This just seems silly.

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RE: Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights

Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:46 am

Quoting joost (Reply 22):
when they re-enter the Schengen zone they could theoretically have added a non-visa carrying pilot from Ireland

But whether the additional crew member is a British or Irish citizen, or a British or Irish visa holder, is surely irrelevant? They still have the right to enter into and remain in Schengen, do they not?

TBH, I think MOL has once again caused a media frenzy over nothing. We've got a whole thread going about two weeks of cancellations. Presumably that's a buffer while they re-jig their schedules either:

(1) to make BUD crews only fly non-Schengen in one shift, such as BUD-STN-BUD-DUB-BUD

(2) make UK/Eire-BUD flights operated by UK/Eire based aircraft and crews who fly, for example, STN-BUD-STN and then do a turn to somewhere else

(3) increase turnaround time at BUD (which FR hate to do, but I guess the revenue from 13 flights might win out)

Given the leisure-orientation of FR's business model they can fairly easily switch flight times at short notice (it's not like they have a significant amount of day-return business traffic from London to Budapest) to fit them within existing schedules.
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Checo77
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RE: Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights

Tue Mar 06, 2012 5:34 am

Congrats to the Hungarian government!!

Finally somebody stood up to that arogant airline! Hopefully this will make them realize they are not the ones to dictate the rule, but the one that will follow them!

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RE: Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights

Tue Mar 06, 2012 5:40 am

Quoting kl911 (Thread starter):
the Border Control Police at Budapest Airport insist that some Ryanair pilots and cabin crew get off the aircraft and clear through immigration on 25 minute turnarounds, despite the fact that these crews live and work in Budapest.

This has all the signs of extortion tactics on behalf of the Border Control Police. Nothing can be clearer. Someone is asking money to make Ryanair's life easy at the airport and Ryanair is saying no. They can not accuse them directly, and this is why they are calling them stupid for thinking they can pull this off.
 
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RE: Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights

Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:05 am

Quoting joost (Reply 22):
Aren't they paying exactly the same as W6? Besides that, at least they are paying. Unlike MA.

What do you mean unlike Malev? Malev contributed to roughly 40% of the total income of the airport. I guess that they are not paying the same thing because I am sure that in the beggining the airport authorities gave them a list of charges, which Ryanair eventually turned down. That is why there were so many problems with their flights to Budapest, they announced them before the airport agreed to their terms.

Quoting joost (Reply 22):
In 2010 there was still Malev and they cancelled 4 routes. Now there is no Malev. The airport is in a very bad position, having just fired hundreds of people following MA's demise. FR withdrawing would be a disaster. It would also give W6 a unique bargaining position towards the airport, which is even worse for the airport.

So it is better to have an airline fly which generates little additional cash for the airport? If the airport was so unhappy with what Ryanair asked for in the beggining that means that the income they would get from them would not cover their expenses. If you read the charges at Budapest airport (you can find them on their site), the airport is not expensive at all.
Ryanair left Budapest before after a dispute related to the fees they were paying, what are they going to do when the airport raises their fees? Pack their stuff and leave? Budapest Airport is a business and as such it has to generate revenue, it's not a charity organization providing unsustainable fees for Ryanair.
If Ryanair wants no fees in Hungary then they can pick one of the secondary airports.

Quoting joost (Reply 22):

- W6 probably faces the same problem. But for example, they fly a route BUD-LTN-BUD-LTN-BUD, and then they don't need to check in the turnaround because they stay in the non-Schengen zone.

Ryanair also flies to Paphos, Cyprus, which is not in Schengen. My guess is that Cyprus is not mentioned on here because it is operated by crew based in Cyprus.
On the other hand, Wizz Air operates far more non-Schengen routes than Ryanair from Budapest: Larnaca, Antalya, Burgas, Sofia, Bucharest, Luton and Cluj. So I guess if they have managed to schedule their aircraft in order to avoid additional screening, then I do not see what is the problem with Ryanair.
 
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RE: Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights

Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:29 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 38):
That was my thought. We'll make flights difficult if you employ our people?!?

This just seems silly.
Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 34):
First, Hungary is part of the European Union.

Ok let me explain this, so maybe it will clear things up. EU is not the same as the Schengen Union. Within the EU borders still exist, while the whole of the Schengen zone is regarded as one (something like the States within the US).

-So if I travel to London, or Bucharest or anywhere within the EU, but outside of the Schengen zone, I am still crossing borders. I have to clear border control, I have to take my passport, etc.
-If I travel within the Schengen zone (hop on a flight to FRA or CDG, etc out of BUD) when I deplane I simply storm out of the aircraft and be on my way, without any control.
In fact the 2 different flights are operated out of 2 different terminals. Schengen flights are operated like "domestic" flights (so only security check, but no passport control) while flights outside of the Schengen zone (even if they are within the EU) are operated out of the International Terminals (same terminal as the flights departing to DXB or JFK)

So the problem here is, that when the crew coming on an inbound flight from lets say MAN, and then they are scheduled to fly to SKG for example, then the flight MAN-BUD is a non Schengen flight, arriving into a border controlled terminal. Then they operate a BUD-SKG flight, that means they load passengers from the non controlled terminal and fly into an also non controlled terminal at SKG. So if a crew member hops off at SKG, then who is going to check his/her papers? The incoming flight at SKG from BUD is being regarded as a flight within the Schengen zone, so nobody is going to even look at the papers...
I can really not describe it in a better way, than lets say a flight is operated on the route YYZ-JFK and then the same crew and plane wants to fly JFK-IAD (out of the domestic terminal) How is that handled by the U.S. authorities? do they let the crew fly the domestic segment without clearing border control? NO!

It is simple as that, and let me say once again: It is not a legislation by the Hungarian Government! It is a legislation for all the Schengen zone, for every airline, and for every crew no matter what nationality they are.
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RE: Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights

Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:50 am

Quoting DALCE (Reply 5):
I wonder if the government would do the same for other UK airlines.

Ryanair is NOT a UK airline - it belongs to Ireland.

Quoting ju068 (Reply 7):
Let us not forget under what circumstances Ryanair returned to Budapest and how much they are paying.
Not to mention Ryanair's arrogance of selling tickets before the Hungarians agreed to give in to their demands. This is just the Hungarian border police bullying Ryanair. I see nothing wrong with it, especially not since it's a tactic used by Ryanair.

I think the expression is "They've been O'Learied"

 
 
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RE: Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights

Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:01 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 19):
No im not. Ryanair is the best thing to happen to a huge part of the Hungarian population who can now finally go on holiday abroad.  

They have trains, and many fine leisure destinations, within a few hours.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 20):
It is on people like you, that believe Ryanair is always the cheapest option, that FR makes profits every year. When you add all the extra charges that FR have, they do not come out much cheaper than other carriers.

  

I can hardly feel sorry for FR. Getting a taste of their own medicine.
 
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RE: Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights

Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:18 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 33):
What happens in the US to a pilot flying, say, MEX - IAH - DFW? Does he have to go through customs and immigration at IAH? If so, it would be the same as for a pilot going STN (non-Schengen) - BUD (Shengen) - HHN (Shengen).

Most definitely. They would need to clear customs and immigration at IAH to even reach their departure gate. Usually, all other exits are sealed off on the way to customs and immigration, unless the pilot wants to exit using the jet bridge, which I am sure is a no-no for anything else besides emergencies. The difference here is that in the US, international flights generally do not make tight turns. All passengers go through customs and immigration and then everything starts from scratch. This takes more than 25 minutes. Often times, planes are towed to other gates in other terminals after arrival for new departures.
 
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RE: Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights

Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:55 pm

Quoting ozzietukker (Reply 21):
But in this case Ryanair is fully in its right not to let their cabin crew undergo such stupid timeconsuming procedure.

No they are not. They have the right to complain about it and work to have it changed. But until it is changed their options are to comply or not go there.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 29):
Seems some spin is being applied, methinks...

SOP

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 34):
First, Hungary is part of the European Union. So are the other countries listed for the affected flights, including the UK.

As explained above.

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 34):
Flight crews flying from a foreign country to the US and to an additional destination within the U.S. are accorded plenty of time to clear customs. Such isn't the case for the RyanAir crews.

Hmm, so airlines flying to US can just decide to make a 25 minute turn and ignore US regulations...

No the issue is Ryanair not scheduling as required.

Quoting panais (Reply 41):
This has all the signs of extortion tactics on behalf of the Border Control Police. Nothing can be clearer. Someone is asking money to make Ryanair's life easy at the airport and Ryanair is saying no. They can not accuse them directly, and this is why they are calling them stupid for thinking they can pull this off.

The extortion I notice is Ryainair thinking they do not need to follow the same regulations as other airlines.
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WildcatYXU
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RE: Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights

Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:03 pm

Quoting ju068 (Reply 42):
Malev contributed to roughly 40% of the total income of the airport.

Yes. Exactly. Contributed. But it doesn't anymore and 40% of BUD's revenue is gone. FR is here and it's paying. Probably less than MA, but it's better than nothing. What happened to "Ki a kicsit nem becsuli, a nagyot nem erdemli" ?

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 43):

So they are towing the aircraft between terminals on such turns?
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RE: Ryanair Forced To Cancel Budapest Flights

Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:15 pm

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 48):

Yes. Exactly. Contributed. But it doesn't anymore and 40% of BUD's revenue is gone. FR is here and it's paying. Probably less than MA, but it's better than nothing. What happened to "Ki a kicsit nem becsuli, a nagyot nem erdemli"

Well, on a flight good loads do not mean good yields. So additional traffic from Ryanair doesn't necessarily mean it is generating cash for the airport.