canadiantree
Topic Author
Posts: 137
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 1:29 am

Why No Vancouver - Paris For Air Canada?

Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:59 am

This may be a stupid question, but I'm really curious.Every major capital in Europe (London, Frankfurt, Munich, Amsterdam) have at least a direct flight to Vancouver but Air Canada does not and I'm just curious as to why. I know they used to have it a long time ago with the 747 but hasn't it returned? At some point Zoom and Air Transat were both operating the route at least in the summer months. I know we have a direct CDG-SEA flight since 2008 but Air France belongs to Skyteam and Air Canada to Star Alliance.

Let's hear the experts as to why this isn't and whether the future might see it happening, perhaps with the 787?  

Will
 
OH-LGA
Posts: 1253
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 1999 1:42 am

RE: Why No Vancouver - Paris For Air Canada?

Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:29 pm

It most likely comes down to a matter of yields, along with opportunity costs. The same problems dogs essentially any West Coast city to Paris.

On the major "legacy" airline side, West Coast - Paris routes generally are the domain of Air France/SkyTeam. UA, who have a much larger hub in San Francisco compared to AC in YVR for example, doesn't even offer a SFO-CDG nonstop. They discontinued it a few years ago after running it on a summer seasonal basis the few years before cancelling the route. They cited the high seasonality and low yields on the flight (it was apparently a very high award redemption route) as the reason for it being cut, and that demand could be satisfied through their existing hubs further east. The problem is that the demand for the pointy end (premium cabins) to Paris is quite small from the West Coast (absent a large corporate agreement which would essentially subsidize the route, aka RDU-LHR). Leisure/VFR demand (highly price sensitive) is VERY seasonal (northern summer), and is better funneled through hubs on the East Coast (such as YYZ for AC, ORD/IAD/EWR for UA).

A big part comes down to costs of varying types, including tying up an aircraft for such a long-stage route that is likely marginally profitable at best. With fuel being such a large part of operating expenses now compared to the past, it makes more sense to segment flights where possible to increase loads, and using the aircraft on shorter stage lengths and on routes that make more money. While it may have been possible in the past, with increases in fuel prices YVR-CDG may simply have become unprofitable to operate. Opportunity costs of using an aircraft for one route when it could be used to make more money elsewhere should also be considered.

Additionally, YVR already has good air links to Europe (FRA, AMS, LHR, etc.), which are all major hubs in their own rights and can easily carry on the connecting traffic onwards to Paris. Because KLM already has a flight YVR-AMS, as part of the AF-KLM Group this flight already satisfies the majority of the demand the group would want to capture. With SEA just down the road and connected with AS/QX links (partnering with Delta, who operate the SEA-CDG route) make it a fairly simple transfer for YVR-originating pax. Also, YVR handles lots of summer seasonal flights which are covered by other carriers (VS, AB, TS)

YVR as a hub for AC wouldn't be able to generate enough originating & connecting traffic to feed a CDG flight, because its connection capabilities are fairly small from that end and the connection potential is very low. AC flights to Europe from YVR (LHR and FRA) feed into large Star Alliance hubs with high connection potential. A flight to CDG would not offer any of these synergies.

Downward trends in fuel prices and/or the introduction of the 787 may make the route viable again - but it depends on again if the aircraft could be used to make more money elsewhere...
Head in the clouds... yet feet planted firmly on the ground.
 
mogandoCI
Posts: 1247
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:39 pm

RE: Why No Vancouver - Paris For Air Canada?

Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:34 pm

At least AC doesn't try to be all things to all people. YVR is the clear pacific hub, YYZ is the clear atlantic and latin america hub, and YUL is a specialized TATL hub and partial reliever for YYZ.

I'm no AirCanada "expert", but my guess is that for a country of just 30-some million people, AC already flies to CDG from 2 cities. If AC doesn't even do YVR-MUC, then I can't imagine YVR-CDG seeing the light, which would be strictly O&D (those few pax from the rest of BC barely adds to the PDEW count).

If AC were ever to attempt it, I'd guestimate they'd start with 787 4-5x weekly. But if a route is in red ink with the 763 and only flips to black ink with 787, then it would be hard to hold onto upon any minor economic downtown or increase in oil prices. AC has plenty of expansion opportunity before having to go fill a nonexistent gap like this.
 
ktachiya
Posts: 1501
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:54 am

RE: Why No Vancouver - Paris For Air Canada?

Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:56 pm

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 2):
At least AC doesn't try to be all things to all people. YVR is the clear pacific hub

I remember that I posted a similar topic a few years ago and don't know if this info is accurate, but another poster pointed out to me generously that the current bilateral between France and Canada only allows for two gateways from one country. Which turns out to be YYZ and YUL.

Of course, this could be completely wrong but if there isn't a legitimate reason, I don't really see why Air France or Air Canada would give all their connecting traffic to KL, LH and BA.
Flown on: DC-10-30, B747-200B, B747-300, B747-300SR, B747-400, B747-400D, B767-300, B777-200, B777-200ER, B777-300
 
mogandoCI
Posts: 1247
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:39 pm

RE: Why No Vancouver - Paris For Air Canada?

Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:04 pm

Quoting ktachiya (Reply 3):
I remember that I posted a similar topic a few years ago and don't know if this info is accurate, but another poster pointed out to me generously that the current bilateral between France and Canada only allows for two gateways from one country. Which turns out to be YYZ and YUL.

I'm surprised open skies doesn't exist in this day and age. It's EU for heaven's sake, not UAE.
 
dolphinflyer
Posts: 187
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 9:57 pm

RE: Why No Vancouver - Paris For Air Canada?

Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:35 pm

I hope and pray that we'll one day see either AF or Air Tahiti Nui operate CDG-YVR-PPT a couple/few times per week. Would be awesome!
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19002
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Why No Vancouver - Paris For Air Canada?

Tue Mar 06, 2012 5:49 pm

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 4):
Quoting ktachiya (Reply 3):
I remember that I posted a similar topic a few years ago and don't know if this info is accurate, but another poster pointed out to me generously that the current bilateral between France and Canada only allows for two gateways from one country. Which turns out to be YUL.

I'm surprised open skies doesn't exist in this day and age. It's EU for heaven's sak.e, not UAE.

Canada-EU (all 27 countries including France) has been a full Open Skies market since late 2009. Any Canadian or EU-based carrier can fly anywhere they want with no restrictions whatsoever.

The reason why AC doesn't fly YVR-CDG is because the market is much too small and CDG isn't a Star Alliance hub. There are plenty of connections to Paris via LHR/AMS/FRA/YYZ/YUL or via the U.S.

[Edited 2012-03-06 09:51:59]

[Edited 2012-03-06 09:52:35]
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 2289
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

RE: Why No Vancouver - Paris For Air Canada?

Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:52 pm

AC operated a 763 on YVR-YUL-CDG during summer 2010. Needless to say, they haven't bothered with that service since.

Quoting dolphinflyer (Reply 5):
I hope and pray that we'll one day see either AF or Air Tahiti Nui operate CDG-YVR-PPT a couple/few times per week. Would be awesome!

Why? LAX has more O&D to CDG, as well as the fact that it sits right on the GC route between PPT and CDG.

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=ppt-cdg,+lax,+yvr

AF or Air Tahiti will never happen at YVR.

Quoting canadiantree (Thread starter):
Every major capital in Europe (London, Frankfurt, Munich, Amsterdam) have at least a direct flight to Vancouver

There are no YVR-MUC flights, not even on TS.
YVR-CDG, however, is summer seasonal on TS. Dunno what the fuss is all about.

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2012-03-06 12:07:39]
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
AirCanada787
Posts: 255
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:56 am

RE: Why No Vancouver - Paris For Air Canada?

Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:44 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 7):

AC operated a 763 on YVR-YUL-CDG during summer 2010. Needless to say, they haven't bothered with that service since.

I was thinking that would be the only way such a flight would work. Either YVR-YYZ-CDG or YVR-YUL-CDG. Similar to how the flight to Sydney is routed YYZ-YVR-SYD and passengers can book tickets on any or all of the segments. Seeing as they aren't doing it anymore I guess it didn't work well enough to continue or there are better ways to utilize aircraft. I agree with others however that it is easier to just route passengers from YVR to YYZ or YUL on any of the various flights and then from there they can go on to CDG.

I would guess also that people from YEG or other places in the west wouldn't want to back track to YVR just to get a flight to Paris. They would most likely just fly direct to LHR (if they can) and then go on to Paris or fly to YYZ and go from there. So really its all about serving passengers in the YVR region and how many of them fly to Paris everyday?
The mind, like a parachute, functions only when open.
 
RJLover
Posts: 344
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 1:41 pm

RE: Why No Vancouver - Paris For Air Canada?

Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:45 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 6):
The reason why AC doesn't fly YVR-CDG is because the market is much too small and CDG isn't a Star Alliance hub. There are plenty of connections to Paris via LHR/AMS/FRA/YYZ/YUL or via the U.S.

IIRC, back in 2009, we had a 763 thru-flight YVR-YUL-CDG and v.v.. I don't know the final reason why they got rid of the thru-flight (and the 763 from YVR-YUL), but it only lasted for a few months...
Last Flight(s): YHZ-YHM-YUL-YHZ Next Flight(s):
 
Ychocky
Posts: 128
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:03 pm

RE: Why No Vancouver - Paris For Air Canada?

Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:52 pm

Perfect route for the 787?

We're hoping for a CDG route here in YOW as well.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19002
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Why No Vancouver - Paris For Air Canada?

Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:04 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 7):
There are no YVR-MUC flights, not even on TS.
YVR-CDG, however, is summer seasonal on TS.

Air Berlin also has twice-weekly YVR-DUS A332 nonstops during the summer.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Dana Low
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Robert Brady



As does LX's leisure subsidiary Edelweiss Air YVR-ZRH, also twice a week with A332 during the summer, with code-shared LX flight numbers.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Gordon Tan

,
 
dolphinflyer
Posts: 187
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 9:57 pm

RE: Why No Vancouver - Paris For Air Canada?

Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:07 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 7):
Why? LAX has more O&D to CDG, as well as the fact that it sits right on the GC route between PPT and CDG.
CDG-YVR-PPT is only 47 miles longer than CDG-LAX-PPT, so it's a wash in GC terms:

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=cdg-lax-ppt%2C+ppt-yvr-cdg&MS=wls&DU=mi

Would also make it easier for some passengers by not requiring them to get a visa for transit via the US.

[Edited 2012-03-06 13:11:06]
 
AirCanada787
Posts: 255
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:56 am

RE: Why No Vancouver - Paris For Air Canada?

Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:19 pm

Quoting Ychocky (Reply 10):

Perfect route for the 787?

Maybe, except:

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 2):
But if a route is in red ink with the 763 and only flips to black ink with 787, then it would be hard to hold onto upon any minor economic downtown or increase in oil prices.

Which actually brings up a good point for not just this but any proposed 787 route. I will admit I'm not an expert on figuring out the route costs but we all know that the 787 will operate routes with a lower cost than the 767. But if the route isn't economical with a 767 but is with a 787 during the next rise in fuel prices or economic downturn at the origin or destination the the route may be quickly axed as suggested by mogandoCI.
The mind, like a parachute, functions only when open.
 
YULWinterSkies
Posts: 1266
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:42 pm

RE: Why No Vancouver - Paris For Air Canada?

Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:35 pm

Quoting dolphinflyer (Reply 12):
Would also make it easier for some passengers by not requiring them to get a visa for transit via the US.

Except that both ends of the trip are part of France, therefore, no need for US visas for most people doing CDG-PPT o&d, either French from the mainland or Tahitians. Just the ESTA + clearing customs + dealing with extra security of US-bound flights. I am not sure how many citizens of countries that need a visa to transit in LAX are on average per CDG-PPT flight, but certainly not enough to justify shifting the route to YVR. Plus, if those few passengers can afford traveling to PPT, chances are high that they are going to be relatively frequent intl travelers, and already having a US visa obtained for previous trips to the US.
However, the US-PPT market is quite lucrative, and especially out of LAX. So, expect neither TN nor AF to miss on that opportunity and transfer to YVR.
When I doubt... go running!
 
dolphinflyer
Posts: 187
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 9:57 pm

RE: Why No Vancouver - Paris For Air Canada?

Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:55 pm

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 14):
So, expect neither TN nor AF to miss on that opportunity and transfer to YVR.

I was thinking in terms of net new service, not transfer of existing service.
 
Kaiarahi
Posts: 1807
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:55 pm

RE: Why No Vancouver - Paris For Air Canada?

Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:58 pm

Quoting dolphinflyer (Reply 15):
I was thinking in terms of net new service, not transfer of existing service.

Check out the thread on TN's financial woes. There's no way they're going to be doing net new anything.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 2289
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

RE: Why No Vancouver - Paris For Air Canada?

Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:01 pm

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 14):

took the words out of my mouth !

Thenoflyzone
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 2289
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

RE: Why No Vancouver - Paris For Air Canada?

Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:13 pm

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 16):
Check out the thread on TN's financial woes. There's no way they're going to be doing net new anything

in 2007, PPT saw 1.5 million people. the number kept on going down and in 2011, we are at 1.1 million.

http://www.aeroport.fr/les-aeroports-de-l-uaf/stats-tahiti-faa-a.php

I the price of fuel keeps creeping up, wouldn't surpise me if TN got rid of their A343's and stopped all intl flights, leaving them to the likes of AF, NZ, LA and HA.

Thenoflyzone
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19002
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Why No Vancouver - Paris For Air Canada?

Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:23 pm

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 14):
However, the US-PPT market is quite lucrative, and especially out of LAX. So, expect neither TN nor AF to miss on that opportunity and transfer to YVR.

QF replaced their once-a-week YVR-SFO tag-on with a new YVR-PPT-NAN-SYD service in 1973 using 707-338Cs, with 5th freedom rights YVR-PPT. Forget whether it was once or twice a week. Don't think it lasted more than a couple of years. QF then reverted to the YVR-SFO tag-on but with the 747-200. That's the only direct service that's ever existed between Canada and PPT. At the time, the QF YVR-PPT nonstop was YVR's longest nonstop route, 60 nm further than CP's YVR-AMS route which was next longest.
 
User avatar
RayChuang
Posts: 8005
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2000 7:43 am

RE: Why No Vancouver - Paris For Air Canada?

Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:53 am

I think the answer is simple: there aren't enough passengers to justify YVR-CDG. Now, YVR-LHR is a very different story, given that there are many British expatriates living in the Vancouver/Victoria area (a lot of British retirees that could afford it move to the Victoria, BC area, from what I've read).
 
ANM604
Posts: 138
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:32 am

RE: Why No Vancouver - Paris For Air Canada?

Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:55 am

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 7):
Air Tahiti will never happen at YVR.

I agree, however, Air Pacific did serve YVR via HNL I believe. They used a 738, and I wonder if they would ever restart it again now that they have some 330's. Would be interesting.
 
CPA62
Posts: 100
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:13 am

RE: Why No Vancouver - Paris For Air Canada?

Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:08 am

I dont think there is an issue with passenger numbers. Vancouver-Paris is a growing market and in terms of numbers, it is probably behind London and Frankfurt. Problem the way i see it; Delta airlines calls the shots for the alliance in North America. Delta Airlines is keeping Air France out of Vancouver to support the Seattle flight much the same way they limit KLM into Vancouver to support Seattle-Amsterdam. i was told few years back that Air Canada does not operate the route as it needs the feed for Toronto-Paris. Why Air Canada does not have a through flight Vancouver via Montreal to Paris is an aircraft issue?
Even though bi-lateral allows for Air France to service Vancouver. Four years ago it did not and Air France began service to Seattle. I firmly believe if Air France would have started service to Vancouver 4 years ago, it would still be flying to Vancouver. I am not sure the argument yields are that bad in Vancouver is still valid. Yields have been increasing year by year and it has allowed a growing list of carriers to survive in Vancouver? The passenger loads for carriers serving Europe are very good. While supposedly high yield markets have lost service to Europe Vancouver has been consistent.
It is just a matter of time before Vancouver sees a year round service to Paris and Munich for that matter.
 
ktachiya
Posts: 1501
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:54 am

RE: Why No Vancouver - Paris For Air Canada?

Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:34 am

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 20):
there aren't enough passengers to justify YVR-CDG

I understand the logic, but are there that many more pax flying YVR-AMS?

The only logic that I see would be that KL can carry a lot of pax beyond AMS and serve to the European network. Is AF not capable of trying to do the same thing?

With VS finally coming into YVR, I wonder if AF stands no chance.

Or the AF-KL group could replace the AMS route with a CDG route?
Flown on: DC-10-30, B747-200B, B747-300, B747-300SR, B747-400, B747-400D, B767-300, B777-200, B777-200ER, B777-300
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24560
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Why No Vancouver - Paris For Air Canada?

Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:58 am

Paris is Vancouver's fourth largest European market after London, Frankfurt and Amsterdam. The local market is decent (but there is a big drop off from AMS to CDG) and average fare is on par with FRA and AMS.

As for why nobody flies it - why send a plane to the West Coast when you can make more money and get better plane utilization from the East Coast?
a.
 
YVRLTN
Posts: 2262
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:49 pm

RE: Why No Vancouver - Paris For Air Canada?

Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:16 am

Quoting dolphinflyer (Reply 12):
CDG-YVR-PPT is only 47 miles longer than CDG-LAX-PPT, so it's a wash in GC terms:

Funnily enough the French Air Force fly this routing a few times a year with an A342 on I believe troop flights.

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 20):
I think the answer is simple: there aren't enough passengers to justify YVR-CDG. Now, YVR-LHR is a very different story, given that there are many British expatriates living in the Vancouver/Victoria area (a lot of British retirees that could afford it move to the Victoria, BC area, from what I've read).

   While its as cosmopolitan as it gets for a city of our size, so of course there are some French people here (outside the Quebecois), I dont think its a huge percentage. I saw in the paper recently that 40% of the population is now of Asian descent, which explains where YVR's pax numbers will be growing to and where AC's growth will be focused.

Quoting canadiantree (Thread starter):
Every major capital in Europe (London, Frankfurt, Munich, Amsterdam) have at least a direct flight to Vancouver

Not sure about that. You have BA (and VS coming) to LHR, LH to FRA & KL to AMS. Thats it for legacies, plus theres the seasonal charters by TS and others as mentioned. Maybe this is somewhat anecdotally, but I have found a lot of folk of British (including myself), Irish, German & Dutch, even Italian, eastern European and Russian descent, but not that many French outside Quebecois. The pattern of airlines serving here seems to reflect that.

Quoting CPA62 (Reply 22):
Delta Airlines is keeping Air France out of Vancouver to support the Seattle flight much the same way they limit KLM into Vancouver to support Seattle-Amsterdam

Not quite sure Im following, maybe you need to explain your point a little more. The YVR-SEA flight is operated by QX for AS and there is a DL codeshare, but it is not their flight and Im not too sure they would be so hot on supporting it? They do have an SLC flight twice a day however, which I am intrigued as to where the pax come from. I dont see why KL would want to bother with SEA with DL on the route.

Quoting ktachiya (Reply 23):
The only logic that I see would be that KL can carry a lot of pax beyond AMS and serve to the European network. Is AF not capable of trying to do the same thing?

Thats right, KL is particularly good for former CIS, eastern Europe, Scandianvia, regional UK & Mid East. I suppose from this perspective it could be either / or KL into AMS or AF into CDG and it would work for connections, but I feel there are more useful connections with KL for the demographic here in YVR as mentioned above, plus possibly a stronger O&D/VFR market too.

Quoting ktachiya (Reply 23):
With VS finally coming into YVR, I wonder if AF stands no chance.

Meh, cherry picking BA's high yields on the O&D pax. I heard YVR would be a fairly early A380 route for BA for this reason. Theres 4-5 flights a day into London in summer. VS are supposedly targeting transit pax, but theres not exactly a multitude of places to transit to, so I dont see KL or LH losing any sleep over that. BA & AC will lose some O&D pax for sure. Havent checked their fares yet, be interesting to see where they pitch in relation to TS & BA/AC.

Quoting RJLover (Reply 9):
IIRC, back in 2009, we had a 763 thru-flight YVR-YUL-CDG and v.v.. I don't know the final reason why they got rid of the thru-flight (and the 763 from YVR-YUL), but it only lasted for a few months...

Must be a good reason why it didnt continue. Still available anyway via YUL & YYZ with AC, just have to change planes and takes a bit longer. Really cant see AC wasting a 787 on this route for low revenue O&D pax. They will be going east out of YVR first.
Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
 
User avatar
czbbflier
Posts: 864
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 1:28 pm

RE: Why No Vancouver - Paris For Air Canada?

Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:54 am

As an individual who has been in the tourism business and who once owned a touring company that actively worked to gain a market share in the French tourism business in Vancouver, I can categorically say that tourism from France is up significantly in the last two years.

While I am not in the tourism business per se anymore I do work with the general traveling public and French people are generally public transport-minded. I am seeing many, many more young families traveling as well as back-packing types from France.

More lift, regardless of who provides it, will mean more traffic between YVR and CDG. No question.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24560
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Why No Vancouver - Paris For Air Canada?

Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:01 am

Quoting czbbflier (Reply 26):
As an individual who has been in the tourism business and who once owned a touring company that actively worked to gain a market share in the French tourism business in Vancouver, I can categorically say that tourism from France is up significantly in the last two years.

The local market grew by less than 1% in the past two years. So, if it's up so much, French are sure finding unique ways of getting there that doesn't involve a plane.

[Edited 2012-03-06 21:02:23]
a.
 
YVRLTN
Posts: 2262
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:49 pm

RE: Why No Vancouver - Paris For Air Canada?

Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:11 am

Quoting czbbflier (Reply 26):
More lift, regardless of who provides it, will mean more traffic between YVR and CDG. No question.

But AC obviously feel it works better routing via their eastern hubs. LHR is the only exception from YVR because of strong O&D traffic, some Star connections and lucrative cargo volumes. There are no political, business or social ties between YVR in particular compared to YUL & YYZ, hence few high yielding pax. Filling a plane with tourists wont make as much money as sending that 767 to China. I agree with AC, leave it to TS.
Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
 
YVRSpeedBird
Posts: 119
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:18 pm

RE: Why No Vancouver - Paris For Air Canada?

Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:30 am

I remembered AC operating non-stop YVR-CDG 2 x a week back in the late 90's, summer seasonal only. If I recall, it was on a 763, and lasted only 1 year. Back then, AC only had 6 of the type while they had a sizable 762 fleet. I took that flight once during my college days in Switzerland, connecting to AF in CDG for the short hop to GVA. I just can't recall if it was '97 or '98.
 
CPA62
Posts: 100
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:13 am

RE: Why No Vancouver - Paris For Air Canada?

Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:15 am

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 25):
quite sure Im following, maybe you need to explain your point a little more. The YVR-SEA flight is operated by QX for AS and there is a DL codeshare, but it is not their flight and Im not too sure they would be so hot on supporting it? They do have an SLC flight twice a day however, which I am intrigued as to where the pax come from. I dont see why KL would want to bother with SEA with DL on the route

KLM flights have been limited by Delta, there are lot of passengers which are transferred to the SEA-AMS flight
even though the YVR-AMS on KLM may not be 100% full. It seems the KLM flight YVR-AMS vv is sold in Europe. Local passengers are often transported YVRQX-SEADL-AMS. You can test this by calling KLM reservations and asking for a flight ex Vancouver to Amsterdam, extremely good chance you will be given a routing via Seattle. It has been a thorn in KLM's operations since the mid 90's when Northwest and KLM where in bed together. KLM Vancouver has requested 7 flights during the off peaks periods and Delta has been limited them to 5 only. Delta has vetoed last 2 summer increases of 10 flight per week instead operating double daily Seattle-Amsterdam despite Vancouver-Amsterdam being stronger route. I have nothing to back this up, only that I am often involved with YVR operations and this is the talk that comes through.
There have been cases where DELTA reservations tell local YVR passengers that KLM does not serve YVR. Again you can test this and you may hear this directly from Delta reservation.
There are a lot of SLC passengers which transfer to HKG flight both CX and AC
 
dolphinflyer
Posts: 187
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 9:57 pm

RE: Why No Vancouver - Paris For Air Canada?

Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:37 am

Why are so many posters on this topic focusing on the local demand YVR-CDG only? Lest we forget that CDG is a major international hub. IIRC, a key impetus for AF launching SEA-CDG a few years ago was that they pre-empted LH on SEA-FRA (as LH flew PDX-FRA at the time). Then the next season, LH launched SEA-FRA and subsequently cxld PDX-FRA. AF is undergoing some financial difficulties at present and attempting to tighten its belt, but do we think it's any coincidence that AF is cxlg SEA-CDG just a few weeks after EK launches daily SEA-DXB service? I think not. Clearly, it's a signal that Skyteam has collectively decided that DL can serve SEA-CDG more efficiently than AF and Skyteam still benefits from the associated connecting network synergies - but they see some of their SEA-India traffic via CDG as vulnerable to being shifted to fly EK via DXB instead.

Contrast that with EK's inability (at present) to fly YVR-DXB service due to the Canadian government's unabashed protectionist stance in favor of AC. The net loser? Western Canada (specifically most effected - YVR and YYC), as western Canadians are "expected" to connect via eastern Canadian cities (YYZ/YUL) when flying to places like CDG and DXB to support AC's traffic flows.

Therefore, from the standpoint of local demand, plus connecting demand beyond Paris to/from major traffic flow regions like the Middle East, Indian subcontinent and Africa, the potential for AF service on YVR-CDG makes a lot of sense. The hypothetical addition of an (optional) YVR-PPT tag flight a couple of times per week could just be an added bonus, but is by no means a mandatory element to make YVR-CDG work.

YVR - Indian Subcontinent is a huge O&D market, and one that is precluded from the Gulf carriers (EK/EY/QR) for the foreseeable future based on Canadian aeropolitical capacity controls which favor service by those carriers from eastern Canada. No doubt this traffic would be an important element of the onboard (not local) demand for any potential YVR-CDG service by AF - large enough to not be adequately addressed by existing YVR-Europe nonstop service with connections to/from India via LHR/AMS/FRA.

[Edited 2012-03-07 01:40:50]

[Edited 2012-03-07 01:48:30]
 
User avatar
usdcaguy
Posts: 1036
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2004 12:41 pm

RE: Why No Vancouver - Paris For Air Canada?

Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:05 pm

Quoting ktachiya (Reply 23):
Or the AF-KL group could replace the AMS route with a CDG route?

Are there many pax traveling over AMS to points in Britain? AMS might be a better hub for that traffic.

Quoting CPA62 (Reply 30):
Delta has vetoed last 2 summer increases of 10 flight per week instead operating double daily Seattle-Amsterdam despite Vancouver-Amsterdam being stronger route.

I think what is going on here is that the corporate support ex SEA is likely stronger than from YVR. For that reason, it could very well be that the premium revenue is stronger from Seattle, where DL has a more loyal following, than from YVR in spite of the fact that YVR may seem more prosperous as a city. Regardless, there are likely some issues here involving DL's pulldown of some flying across the Atlantic to lower-yielding destinations and the need to balance out the JV flying among the carriers. Also, I'm sure BA and LH combined with the service on KL is more than enough capacity for YVR, especially in the off-season. I know that DL/AF/KL have been trying to improve yields across the Atlantic, and capacity has been pulled down in ways never before seen.
 
mogandoCI
Posts: 1247
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:39 pm

RE: Why No Vancouver - Paris For Air Canada?

Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:28 pm

Quoting dolphinflyer (Reply 31):
Why are so many posters on this topic focusing on the local demand YVR-CDG only? Lest we forget that CDG is a major international hub. IIRC, a key impetus for AF launching SEA-CDG a few years ago was that they pre-empted LH on SEA-FRA (as LH flew PDX-FRA at the time). Then the next season, LH launched SEA-FRA and subsequently cxld PDX-FRA. AF is undergoing some financial difficulties at present and attempting to tighten its belt, but do we think it's any coincidence that AF is cxlg SEA-CDG just a few weeks after EK launches daily SEA-DXB service? I think not. Clearly, it's a signal that Skyteam has collectively decided that DL can serve SEA-CDG more efficiently than AF and Skyteam still benefits from the associated connecting network synergies - but they see some of their SEA-India traffic via CDG as vulnerable to being shifted to fly EK via DXB instead.

Because the thread is specifically about AirCanada, so whether AF's hub at CDG matters at all is a separate discussion.

From AC's perspective, local demand weighs much more heavily on a route like this. If UA can't even get more than LHR/FRA out of SFO, imagine AC's chances of getting more European flights from YVR.

[Edited 2012-03-07 04:31:07]
 
pnwtraveler
Posts: 1067
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:12 am

RE: Why No Vancouver - Paris For Air Canada?

Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:28 pm

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 28):
Quoting czbbflier (Reply 26):More lift, regardless of who provides it, will mean more traffic between YVR and CDG. No question.
But AC obviously feel it works better routing via their eastern hubs. LHR is the only exception from YVR because of strong O&D traffic, some Star connections and lucrative cargo volumes. There are no political, business or social ties between YVR in particular compared to YUL & YYZ, hence few high yielding pax. Filling a plane with tourists wont make as much money as sending that 767 to China. I agree with AC, leave it to TS.

AC has almost hourly flights to YYZ and frequent direct flights to YUL that are good connectors for flights to CDG. So any premium passengers can fly that way pretty conveniently with checked through baggage. Going south to Seattle or any other US point for a direct flight to CDG, adds more time and customs hastle than connecting through Toronto or Montreal. So unless the front of the plane can be filled from YVR alone, then there is no financial reason to fly direct to CDG from YVR.

Now as I have said many times in other threads, if the cross border tie in with UA makes it past the competition bureau, UA can fly people in from Portland, Spokane, Seattle etc.to YVR, and seemlessly connect passengers onto any European AC flight, without passing Canadian Customs. That all of sudden could generate sufficient premium travelers, and with full revenue sharing make it financially viable for AC and UA to fill a YVR to CDG plane. It changes the game radically. Right now the UA incentive is to fly people to one of their hubs first, then a distant second would be YYZ or YUL.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19002
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Why No Vancouver - Paris For Air Canada?

Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:46 pm

Quoting dolphinflyer (Reply 31):
Therefore, from the standpoint of local demand, plus connecting demand beyond Paris to/from major traffic flow regions like the Middle East, Indian subcontinent and Africa, the potential for AF service on YVR-CDG makes a lot of sense.

KL's AMS service no doubt serves that market adequately. I don't see a need for both KL and AF in YVR.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 27):
The local market grew by less than 1% in the past two years. So, if it's up so much, French are sure finding unique ways of getting there that doesn't involve a plane.

Many French visitors to Canada are on package tours with multiple stops and buses and other means of transportation on parts of the itinerary, so many of those visitors probably don't show up in your O&D data.

Quoting ktachiya (Reply 23):
Quoting RayChuang (Reply 20):
there aren't enough passengers to justify YVR-CDG

I understand the logic, but are there that many more pax flying YVR-AMS?

The only logic that I see would be that KL can carry a lot of pax beyond AMS and serve to the European network. Is AF not capable of trying to do the same thing?

There's also significant YVR-AMS VFR traffic. There was a lot of Dutch emigration to that part of Canada in the 1950s/60s etc. Many farmers of Dutch origin in the Fraser Valley. There's virtually no VFR traffic to/from France.

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 32):
Are there many pax traveling over AMS to points in Britain? AMS might be a better hub for that traffic.

AMS is probably the major connecting hub for Canada-UK traffic that doesn't have London as its origin/destination. KL alone has nonstop service from AMS to 13 cities in the U.K.
 
ANM604
Posts: 138
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:32 am

RE: Why No Vancouver - Paris For Air Canada?

Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:10 am

Quoting dolphinflyer (Reply 31):
The net loser? Western Canada (specifically most effected - YVR and YYC), as western Canadians are "expected" to connect via eastern Canadian cities (YYZ/YUL) when flying to places like CDG and DXB to support AC's traffic flows.

I'm not sure I'm seeing your point here. I don't think you can accurately compare connecting to DXB to CDG, they are miles away from each other. CDG is very easy for anyone from YVR to get to with 1 stop, whether that is YYZ, YUL, LHR, FRA, AMS etc. I hardly see YVR "losing".

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 34):
So unless the front of the plane can be filled from YVR alone, then there is no financial reason to fly direct to CDG from YVR.

Now as I have said many times in other threads, if the cross border tie in with UA makes it past the competition bureau, UA can fly people in from Portland, Spokane, Seattle etc.to YVR, and seemlessly connect passengers onto any European AC flight, without passing Canadian Customs.

Agreed. As well as taking a precious widebody off another route, which could only be a 330 or 777 right now. They tried YVR-YUL-CDG, and clearly they didn't like what they were seeing (granted it was not a direct flight), so why bother right now? Maybe once the 787 frees up some A/C. The JV with United could have a big impact on AC's europe strategy, but whether it makes it past the competition bureau remains to be seen.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Why No Vancouver - Paris For Air Canada?

Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:32 am

Quoting dolphinflyer (Reply 12):
Would also make it easier for some passengers by not requiring them to get a visa for transit via the US.
Quoting dolphinflyer (Reply 12):
CDG-YVR-PPT is only 47 miles longer than CDG-LAX-PPT, so it's a wash in GC terms:

Its not really a wash.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 17):
Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 14):

took the words out of my mouth !

Exactly. The vast majority of the traffic on those flights - both local and intra-France - is O&D.

Quoting dolphinflyer (Reply 31):
Why are so many posters on this topic focusing on the local demand YVR-CDG only? Lest we forget that CDG is a major international hub.

Its a major hub for AF, as said. Not to mention that YVR already gets tons of EU connectivity over LHR/FRA/AMS as well as over YYZ/YUL and sundry US hubs.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 33):
If UA can't even get more than LHR/FRA out of SFO, imagine AC's chances of getting more European flights from YVR.

Not to mention the fact that no US carrier has made LAX-CDG work in years - and that market is huge.

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 36):
As well as taking a precious widebody off another route, which could only be a 330 or 777 right now.

I don't get it. AC could operate YVR-CDG with a 763 easily, if it made economic sense.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
User avatar
IrishAyes
Posts: 2153
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 6:04 pm

RE: Why No Vancouver - Paris For Air Canada?

Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:20 pm

Quoting dolphinflyer (Reply 31):
AF is undergoing some financial difficulties at present and attempting to tighten its belt, but do we think it's any coincidence that AF is cxlg SEA-CDG just a few weeks after EK launches daily SEA-DXB service? I think not. Clearly, it's a signal that Skyteam has collectively decided that DL can serve SEA-CDG more efficiently than AF and Skyteam still benefits from the associated connecting network synergies - but they see some of their SEA-India traffic via CDG as vulnerable to being shifted to fly EK via DXB instead.

You basically just asked and answered your own question, but the AF change to DL on SEA-CDG has nothing to do with EK. This change would have happened independently of the EK announcement to serve SEA. Rather, it has everything to do with the fact that it makes much more sense from an a/c utilization, revenue/cost optimization, and interlining/mileage accrual perspective. Given that SEA is an AS hub, the mileage accrual terms on DL intercontinental routes are much more favorable for AS Frequent Fliers than on AF flights, so this will keep Elites happy.

As far as EK is concerned, advance bookings (as have been rumored on anet) are not as strong as people projected them to be.

Quoting dolphinflyer (Reply 31):
Therefore, from the standpoint of local demand, plus connecting demand beyond Paris to/from major traffic flow regions like the Middle East, Indian subcontinent and Africa, the potential for AF service on YVR-CDG makes a lot of sense.

YVR is not limited by any means in terms of transiting passengers to points in the Middle East, Indian Subcontinent and Africa. Aside from the bounty of connections via LHR, FRA, and AMS, you also have a HUGE Asian network out of YVR.
confidence is silent. insecurities are loud.
 
pnwtraveler
Posts: 1067
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:12 am

RE: Why No Vancouver - Paris For Air Canada?

Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:37 pm

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 38):
YVR is not limited by any means in terms of transiting passengers to points in the Middle East, Indian Subcontinent and Africa. Aside from the bounty of connections via LHR, FRA, and AMS, you also have a HUGE Asian network out of YVR.

The expanding Middle East Airlines via YYZ and YUL, plus Turkish Airlines, plus the rumoured Ethopian Airlines through YYZ for the African subcontinent and there are a bunch of connection options opening up. The need for another European connecting hub becomes less important until traffic warrants.