multimark
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Air Canada Locks Out Pilots

Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:38 pm

Breaking-effective Monday
 
LOWS
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RE: Air Canada Locks Out Pilots

Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:41 pm

From the CBC:
Quote:
After giving its pilots an ultimatum to accept their final offer for a new labour contract, Air Canada will lock out its pilots effective midnight Eastern Time, on Monday morning.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/.../08/air-canada-strike.html?cmp=rss
 
apodino
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RE: Air Canada Locks Out Pilots

Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:57 pm

Obviously this being in Canada, the Railway Labor Act doesn't apply, but what does this mean? Air Canada will operate no flights effective Monday? Or will Jazz still be able to operate Air Canada flights? What happens now?
 
AirCanada787
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RE: Air Canada Locks Out Pilots

Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:07 pm

Another article from CTV, who interviewed Federal Labour Minister Lisa Raitt this morning.

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories...lvement-Air-Canada-dispute-120308/
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brilondon
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RE: Air Canada Locks Out Pilots

Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:25 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 2):
Or will Jazz still be able to operate Air Canada flights? What happens now?

Jazz is a separate company from AC and their pilots have a separate agreement. But what happens to their flights that connect through their hubs is the question.
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apodino
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RE: Air Canada Locks Out Pilots

Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:36 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 4):

Jazz is a separate company from AC and their pilots have a separate agreement. But what happens to their flights that connect through their hubs is the question.

Jazz operates a ton of US flights to a lot of the smaller destinations (places like MKE for example). How much of that traffic is O and D and how much connects in YYZ?
 
TheCol
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RE: Air Canada Locks Out Pilots

Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:54 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 2):

Ground Handlers are set to strike on Monday, so it's likely there will be a disruption to Jazz flights as well.

This is bad news for AC passengers, especially international pax, but good news for the domestic competition that will definitely scramble to pick up the slack.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
cylw
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RE: Air Canada Locks Out Pilots

Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:54 pm

There isn't going to be any shutdown. The Minister of Labour will legislate them back to work. Pretty smart move by AC. The IAM was going to strike, so why not lock out the pilots at the same time and knock out 2 unions with one bit of legislation.
 
apodino
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RE: Air Canada Locks Out Pilots

Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:56 pm

Quoting TheCol (Reply 6):
Ground Handlers are set to strike on Monday, so it's likely there will be a disruption to Jazz flights as well.

Ok...if the Ground Handlers strike how does this affect US airlines? Many US Airlines (Especially UA and US) are handled by Air Canada at Canadian Stations. If they strike, does this affect their operations as well, or is there a backup plan?
 
hoons90
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RE: Air Canada Locks Out Pilots

Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:13 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 8):

Ok...if the Ground Handlers strike how does this affect US airlines? Many US Airlines (Especially UA and US) are handled by Air Canada at Canadian Stations. If they strike, does this affect their operations as well, or is there a backup plan?

At YYZ, UA is handled by Swissport and US self-handles, below the wing.

For ground handling at YYZ other than AC, ZX and QK, 9W and OS will also be affected. I believe that AC maintenance deals with several other airlines, but not for any baggage/ramp duties.

[Edited 2012-03-08 12:18:56]
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milehighflyer
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RE: Air Canada Locks Out Pilots

Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:35 pm

Quoting CYLW (Reply 7):
Pretty smart move by AC. The IAM was going to strike, so why not lock out the pilots at the same time and knock out 2 unions with one bit of legislation.

The smarter move would be to actually find a way to motivate their workforce and slowly make amends. The literal definition of management "is the act of getting people together to accomplish desired goals and objectives using available resources efficiently and effectively"... The only thing AC management is doing effectively and efficiently is destroying shareholder & stakeholder value, feeding from the trough (21 senior executives? seriously???) and taking employee morale to the point where it might not be recoverable.
 
northstardc4m
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RE: Air Canada Locks Out Pilots

Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:33 pm

Quoting milehighflyer (Reply 10):
The smarter move would be to actually find a way to motivate their workforce and slowly make amends. The literal definition of management "is the act of getting people together to accomplish desired goals and objectives using available resources efficiently and effectively"... The only thing AC management is doing effectively and efficiently is destroying shareholder & stakeholder value, feeding from the trough (21 senior executives? seriously???) and taking employee morale to the point where it might not be recoverable.

This is easy to say from the outside looking in. Truth is these unions at AC are militant and hostile, ask fro far more than the market would offer and will strike almost every time the contract comes up for negotiation.

And for the rest of your statement:

The executives are responsible to the stake holders. These are the Board (who are responsible to the stock holders), customers (aka revenue generating) and the legal obligations of the company, which includes negotiating with it's unions.

You are lumping "management" with governance. This is a common mistake honestly. Executives do not "manage" the company, various levels of Managers, Directors, Team Leaders, etc etc "manage" the company. Governance means setting goals/objectives, making grow/cut/maintain decisions and answering to stake holders.

Also "21 senior executives" is a bit misleading. They have 21 executives, but this includes everything from VPs up. I would consider maybe 8 to be "senior" executives (President, Executive VPs and Senior VPs). My own company has no less than 43 VPs and higher.

And just to compare:

United: 27 executives.
GM: 24 (all senior VP or higher)
GE: 42
I don't think 21 is that many for a company the size of AC.
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flyyul
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RE: Air Canada Locks Out Pilots

Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:44 pm

We need to stop the senior executive rhetoric. Whether there's 50 senior executives, or 2 senior executives, AC has a serious cost problem. With over 10 billion in revenue FY 2011, AC barely broke-even. With the problem centered around costs (which factor into billions, not millions), it's imperative that AC find a solution to profitability.

The pilots and others on this board will continue to dance around the issue, but ACPA is needed on side so that Air Canada can leverage lower cost opportunities in order to effectively compete with WestJet, Transat, Delta, Emirates, Turkish, Cathay, Air China etc all with lower cost structures. Pilots are being offered moderate wage increases, but are asked for support around constraints such as pension for new hires, scope clauses, productivity issues and LCC. I don't think there's any proposal to a pay cut for current pilots.

It's a golden principle rule of business that the player with the lowest cost's ultimately wins. If Air Canada continues down this path, it won't win. Pilots/FA/Management all need to get on side, and find a common vision to improve the viability of this airline - otherwise all employees and many Canadian communities stand a lot to lose.

I would hate for this discussion to be hijacked by self-interested groups. If Air Canada doesn't win, neither will it's pilots/regional providers/and management employees.

[Edited 2012-03-08 13:46:26]
 
N1120A
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RE: Air Canada Locks Out Pilots

Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:57 pm

Its pretty tiring to see AC try and run to the right wing government currently in Ottawa every time they have a labor dispute.
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pnwtraveler
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RE: Air Canada Locks Out Pilots

Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:25 pm

Tomorrow alone there will be over 100,000 people flying out of YYZ for Spring Break. The Mechanics threatened to strike Monday knowing full well that this is a crucial travel period for tons of people across Canada. AC going on strike then would have massive consequences for the traveling public. So taking care of the pilots along with the mechanics is just icing on the cake. I think it says a lot about the unions that they would hold hostage people who are in Florida, the Islands or Mexico on their spring break and having a hastle getting flights back. The union movement is suffering big time from out of touch unions and moves like this spell an even quicker slide in public opinion and support. You should see some of the propriatary surveys of the public.

I have no problem with the government protecting the masses of travelers, who in these economic times have got together enough money for a family vacation and are looking at massive disruption, uncertainty and potentially large extra costs through lost deposits if they cancel their trip, or extra fees if they have to make alternative arrangements.
 
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WildcatYXU
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RE: Air Canada Locks Out Pilots

Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:36 pm

Well, nothing will happen.

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories...lvement-Air-Canada-dispute-120308/


However, for me, an Air Canada loyal customer, it's getting really tiresome.
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ElPistolero
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RE: Air Canada Locks Out Pilots

Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:51 pm

I have no stake in either side here, before anyone accuses me of being biased. I've been watching this AC saga for a while now, and it just lurches from worse to worse. Management's behavior today was the icing on the cake. It was such a masterpiece of cynical strategy that I don't know how anyone associated with AC can justify what they did today.

The absurd noon deadline (correct me if I m wrong, but wasn't there a six month negotiation period in play?), the deliberate bracketing of this with the Machinist proposed strike, and, of course, the timing - smack in the middle of March break. Talk about negotiating in bad faith. As someone on AC's facebook page noted -we understand what you're trying to do, but why couldn't it wait till after the March break? I suspect we all know the answer.

Honestly, until now, I had little sympathy for the pilots. There are enough pockets of aviation growth around the world where they could go work if they didn't like working for AC. I don't see any reason why they must work only in Canada when jobs left, right and center are getting 'Bangalore'd'. That said, AC's management team also achieved a new low with its cynical strategy.

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 11):
Truth is these unions at AC are militant and hostile

At worst, they are now on the same level as AC management. I don't recall them doing anything nearly as cynical as what management did today.

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 11):
Executives do not "manage" the company, various levels of Managers, Directors, Team Leaders, etc etc "manage" the company.

The buck stops with the executives. They're compensated well because of the supposed demands of their job. That is all well and good (I m not a member of the 99), but when you create an environment this toxic in your company, where the majority of employees have developed a near-personal hatred for the leadership, you probably shouldn't be in whatever office you hold. Morale is low, and now the relationship appears to be even more toxic - in fact, I doubt it can get worse.

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 11):
United: 27 executives.
GM: 24 (all senior VP or higher)
GE: 42
I don't think 21 is that many for a company the size of AC.
GE has 287,000 employees and 42 executives. AC has 27,000 employees and 21. Thats 1/12th the size of GE with 1/2 the number of executives. To top it off, GE has several large companies in several industries under the GE umbrella. AC is one company in one industry.

GM - 202,000 employees to AC's 27,000. 24 senior VPs to AC's 8. I think we can both agree that GM is about 8-9 times larger than AC. And yet it only has 3 times the number of senior VPs.

Whatever you were trying to show there isn't very clear.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 12):
it's imperative that AC find a solution to profitability.

Might be better if they just go the CCAA way now, no? I imagine you've read what Schulich's Prof Lazar had to say on the topic. I seem to be under the impression that he has a special relationship with AC.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 12):
The pilots and others on this board will continue to dance around the issue, but ACPA is needed on side so that Air Canada can leverage lower cost opportunities in order to effectively compete with WestJet, Transat, Delta, Emirates, Turkish, Cathay, Air China etc all with lower cost structures.

This is where my sympathy for AC and the pilots both ends. If you want to lower cost structures to match airlines in other countries, you're going to have to do a lot more than cut salaries of unionized employees; you're going to have to chop them across the board. Paying management a first-world salary while trying to reduce pilot salaries to second-world levels is a bit simplistic - and its bound to stir up union opposition.

Another thing struck me as odd today. IATA, of all people, launched a full frontal attack on Canada's aviation policy recently. To be quite honest, I've heard more from Rovinescu about Emirates than I have about taxes. Why is AC not lobbying the government to lower taxes etc? The entire focus is on internal costs, with no emphasis on external costs (like aviation taxes). Why is AC not using its financial plight to lobby for concession in terms of aviation policies? Is it afraid that lower taxes will lead to US LCCs coming into Canada? Is it afraid that it might annoy the government and not get away with underhand tricks in future union disputes?

As for the pilots, we know theres demand elsewhere. Why don't they go work there? An experienced AC pilot shouldn't have problems getting another job. There are many thousands of Canadians who leave Canada because it doesn't offer them the opportunities they want. Why are pilots so special? Yes, I understand its difficult, but in this day and age, people do have to move frequently for employment. Or they can stay in Canada and take what they get. So no, no sympathy there. My only sympathy for the pilots rests on the fact that they have to deal AC management, who's cynicism today has been...remarkable.



Quoting flyyul (Reply 12):

It's a golden principle rule of business that the player with the lowest cost's ultimately wins. If Air Canada continues down this path, it won't win. Pilots/FA/Management all need to get on side, and find a common vision to improve the viability of this airline - otherwise all employees and many Canadian communities stand a lot to lose.

Do they really? At what point would it be more sensible to go the nuclear option and finish Air Canada off a la Swiss. Any loss would be short term at best, since demand isn't going to dry up, and where there's demand, there will be supply. The only difference now is that there won't be a gargantuan AC type company trying to muscle new entrants out (thinking VX on LAX/SFO). If anything, the collapse of AC might even be a boon, since it would allow new entrants to come in with less opposition and less predatory pricing / "price parallelism".

At the same time, new contracts with employees can fix everything (well, thats what AC seems to claim). Why is this not an option? The infrastructure is ready. The workforce will have more than enough experienced labor to kickstart things in a heartbeat.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 12):
If Air Canada doesn't win, neither will it's pilots/regional providers/and management employees.

Which begs the question - who is Air Canada - its pilots/unionized members or management employees? The only thing we've learnt over the past few years is that both sides claim they are Air Canada. And they can't even be in the same room together.

[Edited 2012-03-08 14:55:40]
 
PPVRA
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RE: Air Canada Locks Out Pilots

Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:10 pm

"Air Canada needs to behave like the private sector corporation that it is and stop running to the government every time it has a problem, which, as you can see, is often."

Read more: http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories...nada-dispute-120308/#ixzz1oZMBIBnS


The funny bit is, AC's workers use the government at all times in their negotiations. There are numerous pro-union laws in the books that this guy isn't mentioning. To me, this "lock out" strategy is just the union having a taste of it's own medicine.

For the record, I prefer to side against the government because of my dislike for "back to work" legislation like the one cited in the article above. Canada stopped forcefully sending people "back to work" in the 1830s and I much prefer this remain something studied in history courses rather than practiced today.
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Fiedman
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RE: Air Canada Locks Out Pilots

Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:20 pm

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 14):
I have no problem with the government protecting the masses of travelers, who in these economic times have got together enough money for a family vacation and are looking at massive disruption, uncertainty and potentially large extra costs through lost deposits if they cancel their trip, or extra fees if they have to make alternative arrangements.

Amen to that
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N1120A
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RE: Air Canada Locks Out Pilots

Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:29 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 17):

"Air Canada needs to behave like the private sector corporation that it is and stop running to the government every time it has a problem, which, as you can see, is often."

This is completely true.

Honestly, this is people using their market power to affect change - given your track record, you should support it.
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PPVRA
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RE: Air Canada Locks Out Pilots

Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:38 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 19):
Honestly, this is people using their market power to affect change - given your track record, you should support it.

I do agree with the statement. But unions should play by the same rules. Bargaining power = perfectly ok. Government power = no.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
saloman
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RE: Air Canada Locks Out Pilots

Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:41 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 19):
This is completely true.

Honestly, this is people using their market power to affect change - given your track record, you should support it.

Using market power to raise prices is anti-competitive behaviour whether it benefits management or workers.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Air Canada Locks Out Pilots

Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:45 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 17):
For the record, I prefer to side against the government because of my dislike for "back to work" legislation like the one cited in the article above. Canada stopped forcefully sending people "back to work" in the 1830s and I much prefer this remain something studied in history courses rather than practiced today.

That remiinds me of the strike by Canadian airport firefighters in April 1974 that virtually shut down air service in Canada for about two weeks. They were ordered back to work but refused to comply in several cities. I believe they were later declared an essential service and are now prohibited from striking. I think air traffic controllers are in the same category.
 
bennett123
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RE: Air Canada Locks Out Pilots

Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:45 pm

Seems that management have little reason to negotiate.

Not really a good idea.

It could be extended to other sectors.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Air Canada Locks Out Pilots

Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:50 pm

Quoting saloman (Reply 21):
Using market power to raise prices is anti-competitive behaviour whether it benefits management or workers.

There is nothing wrong with negotiating for a more competitive price, whether it's lower or higher, or practiced by buyers or sellers. This is life as usual and everybody does it.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
PPVRA
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RE: Air Canada Locks Out Pilots

Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:56 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 22):
That remiinds me of the strike by Canadian airport firefighters in April 1974 that virtually shut down air service in Canada for about two weeks. They were ordered back to work but refused to comply in several cities. I believe they were later declared an essential service and are now prohibited from striking. I think air traffic controllers are in the same category.


Unfortunately there are indeed other, more recent examples. One could argue that farm laborers are essential workers. . imagine if they all stopped laboring! What are we going to do, threaten them with the whip if they refuse to work?
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
saloman
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RE: Air Canada Locks Out Pilots

Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:04 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 24):
There is nothing wrong with negotiating for a more competitive price, whether it's lower or higher, or practiced by buyers or sellers. This is life as usual and everybody does it.

Certainly. But my reference was more to the nature of unions themselves - I wish I could take credit for the phrase "Labour Cartels", but I can't. It is the most apt description for their behaviour. With government sanctioning, they restrict and regulate access to their profession to gain market power, which enables them to raise salaries in excess of their open market value.

So in that I would dispute your definition of "competitive price" because in fact it is anti-competitive as AC is only allowed to hire staff that are members of the given union.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada Locks Out Pilots

Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:06 am

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 14):
I think it says a lot about the unions that they would hold hostage people who are in Florida, the Islands or Mexico on their spring break and having a hastle getting flights back.

No one is being held hostage. Everyone who buys an airline seat is doing so voluntarily. The AC union issues are well documented and anyone who buys an AC ticket during such a time has no one to blame but themselves if a strike happens. No sympathy here. Let a strike happen.

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 14):
The union movement is suffering big time from out of touch unions and moves like this spell an even quicker slide in public opinion and support.

I agree completely. So I avoid unionized companies wherever possible when spending my discretionary income. Anyone who claims to dislike unions but voluntarily buys an AC ticket at any time is guilty of double-speak.

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 14):
I have no problem with the government protecting the masses of travelers, who in these economic times have got together enough money for a family vacation and are looking at massive disruption, uncertainty and potentially large extra costs through lost deposits if they cancel their trip, or extra fees if they have to make alternative arrangements.

I do have a problem with this. No one is forced to buy an AC ticket, so the govt should not be stepping in since there are NO innocent victims in an AC strike. Also, AC is a private company -- no govt should be getting involved in the internal affairs of ANY individual company. There is a collective bargaining process -- it should be respected.

Nothing turns society off unions more than a strike.....so let the strike happen. The anger will be vented at AC and the AC unions. Passengers will flock to WS and PD bolstering those co's -- which will help level the playing field.
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Revelation
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RE: Air Canada Locks Out Pilots

Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:07 am

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 15):
Well, nothing will happen.

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories...0308/

The article says:

Quote:

By sending the conflict with two unions -- pilots and ground crew -- to the labour board, Raitt has essentially put any legal strike or lockout on hold, as both parties must wait for the board to rule on the matter.

So, what kind of rulings can the 'labour board' make? Can it say we're fine with the lockout by the pilots and the strike by the ground staff? Seems like the can will just get kicked down the road, no?
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saloman
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RE: Air Canada Locks Out Pilots

Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:24 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 28):
So, what kind of rulings can the 'labour board' make? Can it say we're fine with the lockout by the pilots and the strike by the ground staff? Seems like the can will just get kicked down the road, no?

The Board will just be making a ruling on "health and safety" grounds based on the "maintenance of activities" clause of the Canada Labour Code. This should be seen as a delay tactic that takes a work stoppage off the table, but is the precursor to binding arbitration that can be requested by both parties, or imposed by the Labour Minister. Note that this is the exact process that took place with ACs flight attendants, and resulted in a binding decision by an arbitrator.
 
pnwtraveler
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RE: Air Canada Locks Out Pilots

Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:32 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 28):
So, what kind of rulings can the 'labour board' make? Can it say we're fine with the lockout by the pilots and the strike by the ground staff? Seems like the can will just get kicked down the road, no?

The Labour Board can impose a settlement that it feels is fair like a court. The last situation with AC that went to the Labour Board, the final company offer was imposed that the union recommended but that the membership voted against. That tells you something because the labour board can rule in favour of employees or in favour of business. Usually they try to find the fair common ground. So to come back and impose the final company offer meant that the Board felt it was more than fair. The Board is unpredictable sometimes.
 
WestJet747
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RE: Air Canada Locks Out Pilots

Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:53 am

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 16):
There are enough pockets of aviation growth around the world where they could go work if they didn't like working for AC. I don't see any reason why they must work only in Canada when jobs left, right and center are getting 'Bangalore'd'.

  

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 16):
GE has 287,000 employees and 42 executives. AC has 27,000 employees and 21. Thats 1/12th the size of GE with 1/2 the number of executives. To top it off, GE has several large companies in several industries under the GE umbrella. AC is one company in one industry.

GM - 202,000 employees to AC's 27,000. 24 senior VPs to AC's 8. I think we can both agree that GM is about 8-9 times larger than AC. And yet it only has 3 times the number of senior VPs.

Whatever you were trying to show there isn't very clear.

The number of executives is in no way correlated to number of employees, not linearly anyway. If you want to make a comparison then you would have to realize that the larger the company, the larger the degree of scale. So of course they would have more employees per executive.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 16):
Why is AC not using its financial plight to lobby for concession in terms of aviation policies?

As far as I know, WestJet is bound by the same Canadian tax codes as AC (aviation or otherwise). If WestJet's accounting department can make it work, so should AC's.
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Revelation
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RE: Air Canada Locks Out Pilots

Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:02 am

Quoting saloman (Reply 29):
This should be seen as a delay tactic that takes a work stoppage off the table, but is the precursor to binding arbitration that can be requested by both parties, or imposed by the Labour Minister.

Thanks.

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 30):
The Board is unpredictable sometimes.

I imagine both binding arbitration and an imposed settlement aren't very predictable.

I guess in the end, AC wins by not having the work stoppage on a very busy week. Of course the customers win too, and even the unhappy employees end up being paid.
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ElPistolero
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RE: Air Canada Locks Out Pilots

Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:06 am

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 31):
As far as I know, WestJet is bound by the same Canadian tax codes as AC (aviation or otherwise). If WestJet's accounting department can make it work, so should AC's.

I didn't mean to limit it to taxes. They should be able to use this to get some relief from the Air Canada whatever-its-called act that supposedly burdens it with extra costs (or so people have claimed, anyway). And the landing fees don't quite line up equally for AC and WS, partly due to aircraft types and partly due to the YYZ hub, so I wouldn't say its a fair comparison.

Besides, why is WS happy with status quo on taxes? I would think WS would want them lowered too, not act like alls well. Is it the fear of US LCCs coming across and putting competitive pressure on transborder fares?

In true Canadian form, its left to IATA, not the local airlines, to point out that prohibitively taxing the airline industry is not a good idea.
 
ANM604
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RE: Air Canada Locks Out Pilots

Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:17 am

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 16):
At worst, they are now on the same level as AC management. I don't recall them doing anything nearly as cynical as what management did today.

Perhaps you're not that familiar with the IAM, but I can assure you, they are just as ridiculous, at the best of times. The ACPA aren't anywhere near the IAM.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 16):
This is where my sympathy for AC and the pilots both ends. If you want to lower cost structures to match airlines in other countries, you're going to have to do a lot more than cut salaries of unionized employees; you're going to have to chop them across the board.

They sure are going to have too, but try doing that when every employee group except management is unionized. The IAM is especially out of touch with reality, they just don't get it.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 16):
Another thing struck me as odd today. IATA, of all people, launched a full frontal attack on Canada's aviation policy recently. To be quite honest, I've heard more from Rovinescu about Emirates than I have about taxes. Why is AC not lobbying the government to lower taxes etc?

They are, it just doesn't make the news, and probably won't be changed anytime soon. The airline and airports are a cash cow for a government that desperately needs that cash. The provincial governments have shown some aptitude to change, as BC just recently reduced or axed it's international fuel tax, which is a step in the right direction. But there has to be some give from the government, whether it is reducing any taxes to transit passengers to nil, or reducing some of the rent it charges airports, anything will help.

Quoting Fiedman (Reply 18):
Amen to that

I'll second that. The public does not deserve to have to deal with internal strife within AC.

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 30):
The last situation with AC that went to the Labour Board, the final company offer was imposed that the union recommended but that the membership voted against.

Which should say quite a bit about what was offered to the union members. The Labour Board has often proved it will side with the employees whenever possible, but it didn't with the f/a's. I for one, am happy to see contracts get imposed. Maybe it will encourage both sides to talk and negotiate more, instead of rolling the dice with arbitration.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 18831
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Air Canada Locks Out Pilots

Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:33 am

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 33):
Besides, why is WS happy with status quo on taxes? I would think WS would want them lowered too, not act like alls well. Is it the fear of US LCCs coming across and putting competitive pressure on transborder fares?

In true Canadian form, its left to IATA, not the local airlines, to point out that prohibitively taxing the airline industry is not a good idea.

WS isn't happy with status quo on taxes. The four largest Canadian carries, AC, WS, TS and Jazz, established a lobby group in 2008 called the National Airlines Council of Canada. They have been active in lobbying against unwarranted taxes and other government charges. One example:
http://airlinecouncil.ca/en/making-a...-travel-more-cost-competitive.html
 
avroarrow
Posts: 804
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2001 10:40 am

RE: Air Canada Locks Out Pilots

Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:15 am

Don't get me started on the level of taxes levied on air travellers in this country. Not only are they almost always the largest part of your fare, but they are fixed so the airline could sell you your seats for 1 penny and the trip can still cost you a grand. In Canada air travel prices are as bad as the prices on booze and smokes, and gasoline to a degree as well, 1/3 is for the product and the rest goes to the government.
Anyway, halfway back on topic, I have a trip booked in April through ACV. I wonder what happens to me if AC is shut down due to lock out/strike? Does ACV have to find me another ride the Jamaica I wonder? Selfish of me I know. If its any consolation to AC employees I have personal experience with large corporate labour relations, its never an easy thing, but I don't work in a place where the government cares to legislate me back to work, so at least you have that going for you.
Give me a mile of road and I can take you a mile. Give me a mile of runway and I can show you the world.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1130
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

RE: Air Canada Locks Out Pilots

Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:24 am

Quoting AvroArrow (Reply 36):
Don't get me started on the level of taxes levied on air travellers in this country. Not only are they almost always the largest part of your fare, but they are fixed so the airline could sell you your seats for 1 penny and the trip can still cost you a grand.

I think you're including fuel surcharges and navcan surcharges in your calculation as 'taxes'. Neither of them are taxes. They go to AC and are essentially a part of your airfare. That said, the taxes arent much better - usually around $100 at the very least.

Without going tooo far OT, I personally hope AC use their financial straits to ram home the message on taxes, rather than focus solely manipulating the system and the government during labor unrest.

That said, I m pleased to know that the airlines are doing something about taxes. Maybe its time to write to MPs.
 
yxu737
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:15 am

RE: Air Canada Locks Out Pilots

Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:22 am

Let them strike if they want to and we are in Canada and collective bargaining is important and has been part of our culture for a long time and greedy corporations take advantage of employees. The Canadian government only intervenes when it is in the best interest of the Conservative government. Air Canada management is horrible at running the company and will have to go through bankruptcy again to fix it you can't have the CEO making 5 million while everyone was asked to take a pay cut that is the bottom line and even more so he hasn't done a good job anyways he should of got the boot a long time ago.The stock is worth 94 cents and continues to drop where else can this company go ....even lower. I am all for Air Canada and the employees and not one bit for the "Management of Air Canada".
 
ac7e7
Posts: 655
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:27 am

RE: Air Canada Locks Out Pilots

Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:53 am

No matter what management does, the unions and their members will never be happy. Nobody is forcing the employees to work at Air Canada, and if they feel they are not treated well, or not receiving what they feel they are entitled to, leave the bloody company!

I am fed up with hearing from AC employees whinning about executive pay (and I am by no means an executive, I have worked in a union shop as a unionized employee). If you want some schmuck to run Air Canada, why not convince your union leaders to raise the required capital and make a bid for the airline? Then Buzz Hargrove can come back from retirement and be nominated as CEO and run the company dry - paying ramp rats the $95,000 they feel they are entitled too! But wait, I have read Animal Farm.... Mr. Hargrove and his cronies would eventually pay themselves just about the same AC pays their current CEO until the farm was bare...

If the unions want to continue the pensions as they are, maybe it is time they start managing and funding them themselves. Why the hell should I have to pay higher ticket prices in order to fund your pensions? I don't have a pension, I have to fund and manage my retirement savings myself through RRSPs. Wait a minute, I don't have to pay higher ticket prices - I can fly other airlines!

I agree with most people here that the government should not be getting involved - allow the baggage handlers to go on strike. Allow Air Canada to lockout their pilots. The Board of Directors approved the move, therefore they are prepared to lose millions of dollars in revenue in order to force a deal on their terms. Air Canada will no longer be able to use their lucrative international routes to subsidize their money-losing domestic network once Westjet begins international service in the next few years. They understand that the current structure is unsustainable.
 
ANM604
Posts: 138
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:32 am

RE: Air Canada Locks Out Pilots

Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:19 am

Quoting yxu737 (Reply 38):
and greedy corporations take advantage of employees.

It's Canada we're talking about here, not Africa. Let's try and tone down the "greedy corporations" rhetoric, it's not like AC employees are in China making iPads, getting forced to work OT at straight time with no pensions. Talk about first world problems.

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 39):
No matter what management does, the unions and their members will never be happy. Nobody is forcing the employees to work at Air Canada, and if they feel they are not treated well, or not receiving what they feel they are entitled to, leave the bloody company!

You hit the nail on the head. Will the IAM be happy if they get the +15% raise over the next couple years? Not friggin likely once this contract expires. Unfortunately with unions, it is ALWAYS more more more. How else can they justify their existence? I get that they have made concessions, but honestly, what more do they expect from the company? The fact that they were even offered raises says a lot, but apparently those weren't good enough.

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 39):
But wait, I have read Animal Farm.... Mr. Hargrove and his cronies would eventually pay themselves just about the same AC pays their current CEO until the farm was bare...

   Yeah I get the $5 mill bonus is way over the top, but like I've said before, Calin didn't pick his salary. It was part of the package approved by the AC BoD. Executive compensation has always been a target, and probably always will, but ask yourself, how many candidates would come to AC to run it for $500,000/year? Not many

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 39):
If the unions want to continue the pensions as they are, maybe it is time they start managing and funding them themselves.

I couldn't agree more.
 
YULWinterSkies
Posts: 1266
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:42 pm

RE: Air Canada Locks Out Pilots

Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:26 am

Don't wanna flame anybody, but it's a four-player competition: the management, the unions, the government, and the customers. All of them want more for their money. All of them want to spend less. All of them think the other parties should pay more/get less. All of them think their plans should not get affected by the other parties' stupid and stubborn decisions. In fact, it might even be a five-player situation, as the unions can easily be split into the union managers and the members (=the employees). It's part of human nature. At the end of the day, we are all human beings, perhaps it's time that all involved start acting like adults and understand that. Then, things might start improving...

Note: I essentially agree with none of the parties involved: AC management: I'm not up to date but it looks like they don't have things quite under control... gov't: I am fundamentally opposed to anything having to do with Stephen Harper, his politics and his party. Unions managers: just as power-thirsty as the PM, and as anti-democratic as him, Customers: a whole bunch of greedy grumpy pesky people who are gonna refuse to fly X vs Y because X is $3 more expensive than Y, and then complain that Y is cutting service standards and charging them extra for their overweight suitcase, duh!....

At the end, I think I stand on the employees' side, because they are being told what to do/not to do by the management, the union leaders, the gov't all together, and have to deal with some of the worse possible individuals on Earth (the customers), with a smile, with tact, with skills when the worse of them get rougher, and even apologize to them for other people's mistakes such as delayed flights, lost luggage, etc... and man, overall, they are doing a pretty damn good job at it!
Stating they are overpaid and should leave the company for another one if they are unhappy is just plain rude and insulting.

Rant over: I hope the employees manage to get at least some of what they are negotiating, without having to either strike, get locked out or get forced to go to work by the govt....

[Edited 2012-03-08 22:46:42]
When I doubt... go running!
 
yxu737
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:15 am

RE: Air Canada Locks Out Pilots

Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:18 am

Quoting yxu737 (Reply 38):
and greedy corporations take advantage of employees.

It's Canada we're talking about here, not Africa. Let's try and tone down the "greedy corporations" rhetoric, it's not like AC employees are in China making iPads, getting forced to work OT at straight time with no pensions. Talk about first world problems

Corporate greed is huge.....Thats what this world is about.....I live in a city with one of the highest unemployment rates in all of Canada......Caterpillar closed up shop.....Ford Closed up shop.....Corporations that make huge amounts of profit that don't ultimately care about employees.....thats it for this rant
 
mmedford
Posts: 449
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:54 pm

RE: Air Canada Locks Out Pilots

Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:24 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 25):
What are we going to do, threaten them with the whip if they refuse to work?

That's pretty much what the Canadian Government did here... get back to work, as an executive order.

This is not the government's place...they are a private company, you can't have it both ways.

Btw; Pro-Union doesn't mean Anti-Company...BOTH sides should negotiate in good faith. Management shouldn't be proud that they can stick it to their employees by saving the company a few bucks and the employees shouldn't be willing to drive the company into bankruptcy over a contract.

If you want to see what negotiating in bad faith looks like; look at the NATCA contract of 2006. Management saying no to everything, have it go to impasse and then having congress impose it upon it's employees.

You know what; instead of the Canadian Government meddling into AC affair's...why don't they go after NavCanada? The National Airspace System should be an inherentially Governmental process, Maybe if they operated the NAS, which would remove the fees and allow canadian carriers to make a profit.
ILS = It'll Land Somewhere
 
StarAC17
Posts: 3400
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:54 am

RE: Air Canada Locks Out Pilots

Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:54 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 22):
That remiinds me of the strike by Canadian airport firefighters in April 1974 that virtually shut down air service in Canada for about two weeks. They were ordered back to work but refused to comply in several cities. I believe they were later declared an essential service and are now prohibited from striking. I think air traffic controllers are in the same category.

If you want to make AC employees an essential service usually there is a compensation premium for doing so which is why people in life and death professions get that clause.

Quoting yxu737 (Reply 38):

Let them strike if they want to and we are in Canada and collective bargaining is important and has been part of our culture for a long time and greedy corporations take advantage of employees.

It has been often been said that poor management deserves the union it gets. Treat your employees well and they won't look to collectively bargain for rights.

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 39):
I am fed up with hearing from AC employees whinning about executive pay (and I am by no means an executive, I have worked in a union shop as a unionized employee). If you want some schmuck to run Air Canada, why not convince your union leaders to raise the required capital and make a bid for the airline?

Look its all about optics and image, if you are demanding someone to take a cut you better be taking one yourself. If you are making your employees take a cut so the stock price goes up and you get a bonus because of it then you deserve a pissed off labour force.

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 40):
It's Canada we're talking about here, not Africa. Let's try and tone down the "greedy corporations" rhetoric, it's not like AC employees are in China making iPads, getting forced to work OT at straight time with no pensions. Talk about first world problems.

Here is the thing if we give up our right to collectively bargain then the labour laws that have come from it will eventually disappear as well because of the political influence of the same corporations.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
northstardc4m
Posts: 2724
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 11:23 am

RE: Air Canada Locks Out Pilots

Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:03 pm

Quoting mmedford (Reply 43):

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 40):
It's Canada we're talking about here, not Africa. Let's try and tone down the "greedy corporations" rhetoric, it's not like AC employees are in China making iPads, getting forced to work OT at straight time with no pensions. Talk about first world problems.

Here is the thing if we give up our right to collectively bargain then the labour laws that have come from it will eventually disappear as well because of the political influence of the same corporations.

Exactly...

The problem today is that the unions have become political entities instead of labour barganing groups. I've long been pro-union anti-united-labor. I don't think groups like the UAW/CAW, Teamsters, etc do anything to promote good labour relations, in fact all they do is use each negotiation as a wedge for the next one.

Now that said... I don't think the government coming in and forcing arbitration was the right move here. I would of simply mandated a cooling off period before strikes/lockouts for both groups until April to avoid the peak travel period. After that, let em strike. Forcing the matter to the IRB now just shows the unions the Conservatives are pro-corporation... well no kidding!
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
YXD172
Posts: 340
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2008 3:38 am

RE: Air Canada Locks Out Pilots

Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:37 pm

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 40):
Calin didn't pick his salary. It was part of the package approved by the AC BoD.

Yes, so he's not a bad person for accepting what was given to him. But he has the choice to decline the bonus, or even just part of it. But, by taking it all, he certainly doesn't show anything that I'd call good leadership.

It's not just his fault, be he could easily help the airline towards profitability at his own expense. It's what he's asking the employees to do, so why can't he?
Radial engines don't leak oil, they are just marking their territory!
 
Kaiarahi
Posts: 1807
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:55 pm

RE: Air Canada Locks Out Pilots

Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:55 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 27):
Anyone who claims to dislike unions but voluntarily buys an AC ticket at any time is guilty of double-speak.

So how would you suggest I get from YOW to YQB, YQM, YYT and YXU for meetings next week?
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
Kaiarahi
Posts: 1807
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:55 pm

RE: Air Canada Locks Out Pilots

Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:38 pm

Quoting yxu737 (Reply 42):
Corporations that make huge amounts of profit that don't ultimately care about employees.....thats it for this rant

You do realize that corporations have shareholders, right? Those shareholders are individuals, pension funds, etc.

Quoting mmedford (Reply 43):
That's pretty much what the Canadian Government did here... get back to work, as an executive order.

Not really - it punted the strike/lockout by asking for an opinion from the Canada Labour Board on the health/safety implications of the strike/lockout.

Quoting mmedford (Reply 43):
This is not the government's place...they are a private company, you can't have it both ways.

The government administers the Canada Labour Code (just as it administers air transport legislation and regulations, the Income Tax Act, etc.). The fact of being a company (AC is actually a publicly listed and traded company, not private) doesn't make it exempt from applicable legislation and regulations.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
Whiteguy
Posts: 1013
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 6:11 am

RE: Air Canada Locks Out Pilots

Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:56 pm

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 47):
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 27):
Anyone who claims to dislike unions but voluntarily buys an AC ticket at any time is guilty of double-speak.

So how would you suggest I get from YOW to YQB, YQM, YYT and YXU for meetings next week?

This is what I think is pretty pathetic in this country. AC employees are fighting for pay, working conditions, their careers and their future.........all people are worried about is their week vacation during March break and some business meetings.

And you guys call the AC employees selfish!!!!

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