Delta777Jet
Topic Author
Posts: 1226
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2000 6:19 am

AF/KL, AB And EY Against LH

Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:23 am

According to newspaper:

Etihad is talking with AF/KL Group to utilize Air Berlin to weaken Lufthansa in Germany.
AF is even open to joint venture with Air Berlin and to do codeshare flights Germany to France on AB metal.
B-717/722/737-200/300/400/500/600/700/800/900/B-747-100/200/400/SP/8i/B-752/3/B-762/3/4/B-772/LR/300ER/B-788/DC-10-10/30/L-1011-1/500/MD-81/82/83/90/A-319/320/321/AB6/312/313/332/333/342/343/346/359/388/TU154/IL-18/ATR-42/72/DH4/DH3/E145/E170/190/CR2/7/9
 
SASMD82
Posts: 616
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 12:44 am

RE: AF/KL, AB And EY Against LH

Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:42 am

Wow, that would be a step!

If AF/KL is really going to work with AB, I think the end of Transavia might be in sight.
Anyway, due to the economic downturn, rationalising is very logical.
 
LOWS
Posts: 1194
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:37 am

RE: AF/KL, AB And EY Against LH

Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:54 am

Quoting Delta777Jet (Thread starter):

Etihad is talking with AF/KL Group to utilize Air Berlin to weaken Lufthansa in Germany.
AF is even open to joint venture with Air Berlin and to do codeshare flights Germany to France on AB metal.

Link?

And what would that do to the alliances?
 
kl911
Posts: 3981
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:10 am

RE: AF/KL, AB And EY Against LH

Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:10 pm

Quoting LOWS (Reply 2):
And what would that do to the alliances?

Well, AB can join Skyteam, its quite easy to switch, look at CO for example.
 
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24557
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: AF/KL, AB And EY Against LH

Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:20 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 3):

Quoting LOWS (Reply 2):
And what would that do to the alliances?

Well, AB can join Skyteam, its quite easy to switch, look at CO for example.


It's actually not easy at all. It involves expensive IT work, exit penalties in the tens of millions and tons of other arduous contractual and legal nuances.

But there is nothing stopping airlines from code sharing with other alliance carriers. AF and QF are just one example of many.
a.
 
Delta777Jet
Topic Author
Posts: 1226
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2000 6:19 am

RE: AF/KL, AB And EY Against LH

Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:06 pm

May be also the Air Berlin FF program will be the first to link Skyteam and Oneworld. Would make it an interesting choice especially for members from Europe and would be a real advantage for Air Berlin against Lufthansa Miles and Less.
B-717/722/737-200/300/400/500/600/700/800/900/B-747-100/200/400/SP/8i/B-752/3/B-762/3/4/B-772/LR/300ER/B-788/DC-10-10/30/L-1011-1/500/MD-81/82/83/90/A-319/320/321/AB6/312/313/332/333/342/343/346/359/388/TU154/IL-18/ATR-42/72/DH4/DH3/E145/E170/190/CR2/7/9
 
UAL777UK
Posts: 2132
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:16 am

RE: AF/KL, AB And EY Against LH

Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:10 pm

Aren't AB joining OW in the near future?. Wouldn't BA for instance have something to say about AB maybe feeding AF/KL longhaul flights etc

Be interesting to see what happens
 
vv701
Posts: 5773
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:54 am

RE: AF/KL, AB And EY Against LH

Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:36 pm

From a BA - AB's oneworld sponsor - press release dated 2 February:

"British Airways is to welcome airberlin to oneworld in March, as part of its plans to strengthen its network in Germany, and throughout south and central Europe."
 
kl911
Posts: 3981
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:10 am

RE: AF/KL, AB And EY Against LH

Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:08 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 8):
"British Airways is to welcome airberlin to oneworld in March, as part of its plans to strengthen its network in Germany, and throughout south and central Europe."

Well, that still doesnt have to say AB cant codeshare with AF for example. AF ( Skyteam ) is codesharing with QF ( Oneworld) for example.
 
vv701
Posts: 5773
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:54 am

RE: AF/KL, AB And EY Against LH

Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:38 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 9):
Well, that still doesnt have to say AB cant codeshare with AF for example

No. Of course not. And I certainly never suggested it did. I simply providied a source to asnswer the question:

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 7):
Aren't AB joining OW in the near future?.


So at the risk of being repetitive let me repeat that BA formally issued a statement early last month that AB would be joining oneworld in March.
 
dennys
Posts: 658
Joined: Tue May 08, 2001 11:19 pm

RE: AF/KL, AB And EY Against LH

Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:58 pm

AF is thinking twice about it . Its financial position is too bad .
I guess such airlines like EY do want dolid partnters .
 
jr
Posts: 1043
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 1:15 am

RE: AF/KL, AB And EY Against LH

Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:08 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 9):
Well, that still doesnt have to say AB cant codeshare with AF for example. AF ( Skyteam ) is codesharing with QF ( Oneworld) for example.

AF code shared with Finnair at one point as well. I distinctly remember flying on an AF ticket from DFW to HEL with a AY aircraft on CDG-HEL. Is that partnership still in place?
I've flown on 9V-SPK.
 
B747forever
Posts: 12855
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 9:50 pm

RE: AF/KL, AB And EY Against LH

Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:32 pm

Quoting jr (Reply 12):
Is that partnership still in place?

Yes it is.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
anstar
Posts: 2868
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 3:49 am

RE: AF/KL, AB And EY Against LH

Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:57 pm

Quoting dennys (Reply 11):
AF is thinking twice about it . Its financial position is too bad .
I guess such airlines like EY do want dolid partnters .

AF would still be a solid partner.

I personally would like to see -

Etihad join Skyteam

Etihad but a major stake in Virgin Australia

Virgin Australia and Virgin Atlantic join Skyteam (VA already has the Delta JV)

Etihad invest in AF/KL/AZ and have AB move to Skyteam.

Ok so Im dreaming... I did say it is what I would like to see!
 
chootie
Posts: 169
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 10:26 am

RE: AF/KL, AB And EY Against LH

Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:58 pm

Hi to all!!

Interesting in as much as AF and OS code share on some VIE-CDG frequencies, and AB is somehow aligned with HG(Fly Niki).

Could they possibly want to be similar to AS in the USA--with the exception that they are entering an alliance?
chootie
 
ORDJOE
Posts: 648
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 2:27 am

RE: AF/KL, AB And EY Against LH

Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:01 am

JL and AF do a lot of code sharing and JL codeshares with a number of skyteam and a few *A partners
CX is with CA, VN
QF with EVA, EI, MU, GA, VN, Kenya


It is not a high crime (although AA seems to refuse to do this at all costs) to codeshare with someone out of your alliance, they are still independent members that are accountable for their own profits and need to do what they can to stay in the black.

I highly doubt AB will defect to skyteam at this point, and I hope not as I want miles that actually are worth something when flying them.
 
toobz
Posts: 632
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:33 am

RE: AF/KL, AB And EY Against LH

Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:22 am

Quoting jr (Reply 12):
Well, that still doesnt have to say AB cant codeshare with AF for example. AF ( Skyteam ) is codesharing with QF ( Oneworld) for example.

AF code shared with Finnair at one point as well. I distinctly remember flying on an AF ticket from DFW to HEL with a AY aircraft on CDG-HEL. Is that partnership still in place?

Well yes they started the codeshare after AF stopped flying to HEL.
I haven't checked lately but I would assume the still do.
 
TW741
Posts: 339
Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2004 11:04 pm

RE: AF/KL, AB And EY Against LH

Sat Mar 10, 2012 6:03 am

Quoting chootie (Reply 15):
and AB is somehow aligned with HG(Fly Niki).

AB is the 100% owner of FlyNiki HG which is a little more than "aligned".

The specutlated codesharing/partnering of AF and AB is related to secondary French airports passing by the CDG hub, linking cities like Lyon or Toulouse direct with BER or DUS. Same would be a good network extension and feeder for Etihad.
TWA - we showed you how good we have been!
 
r2rho
Posts: 2439
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:13 pm

RE: AF/KL, AB And EY Against LH

Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:26 am

So is AB saying bye-bye to OW even before joining? All its recent moves (the Etihad deal, now AF codeshare) point away from OW, and particularly away from BA / IB, not towards them. I'm getting more and more the impression that AB will be OW only on paper. What is their strategy¿?  

I for one was looking fwd to AB joining OW as it will provide a competitive balance against Star & Skyteam in central Europe, but perhaps they had other ideas?
 
SuperCaravelle
Posts: 261
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:04 pm

RE: AF/KL, AB And EY Against LH

Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:48 am

Quoting r2rho (Reply 19):
I for one was looking fwd to AB joining OW as it will provide a competitive balance against Star & Skyteam in central Europe, but perhaps they had other ideas?

When it is profitable for airlines to cooperate with airlines outside of their alliance, they will do so. An alliance is nothing more than a framework for stable code share arrangement, not a joint venture or anything of that kind. If it would be, it would be very anticompetitive and as such probably not allowed.

The same holds for this plan. If AF/KL, AB and EY indeed have the plan to specifically destabilize LH with this agreement, it wouldn't be far fetched to call it predatory behavior, in which case anti competition authorities may need to step in.
 
vv701
Posts: 5773
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:54 am

RE: AF/KL, AB And EY Against LH

Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:37 pm

Quoting chootie (Reply 15):
AB is somehow aligned with HG(Fly Niki).

According to the BA Press Release referenced in Reply 10, Niki is also joining oneworld. The release says:

"British Airways is sponsoring airberlin’s membership of oneworld, and has just completed a thorough review of airberlin’s processes and procedures. airberlin joins oneworld alongside Austrian airline NIKI, a member of the airberlin group, who together form Europe’s sixth largest carrier."
 
EddieDude
Posts: 6208
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:19 am

RE: AF/KL, AB And EY Against LH

Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:05 pm

Quoting ORDJOE (Reply 16):
It is not a high crime (although AA seems to refuse to do this at all costs) to codeshare with someone out of your alliance,

AA codeshares with airlines that are not members of oneworld such as AS, B6 and G3 to name a few.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
ORDJOE
Posts: 648
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 2:27 am

RE: AF/KL, AB And EY Against LH

Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:19 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 22):

AA codeshares with airlines that are not members of oneworld such as AS, B6 and G3 to name a few.

They dont seem to want to codeshare with members of other alliances, they worked closely with OZ, Lot, TK LX, Brussles airlines, and EI, but once they joined other alliances the ties were severed (EI and AA were really close, but once EI went on its own AA does not dealings with them anymore.)
 
Delta777Jet
Topic Author
Posts: 1226
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2000 6:19 am

RE: AF/KL, AB And EY Against LH

Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:46 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 19):
So is AB saying bye-bye to OW even before joining? All its recent moves (the Etihad deal, now AF codeshare) point away from OW, and particularly away from BA / IB, not towards them. I'm getting more and more the impression that AB will be OW only on paper. What is their strategy¿?  

My personal opinion is that OneWorld sooner or later merge with SkyTeam, that's because Star Alliance has become so strong specially in Europe. One World at least in mainland Europe is weak, just BA, Iberia, Finnair, so not a great market share in Central and Eastern Europe and specially not the right alliance for Air Berlin. Now also Malev has gone, so basically Air Berlin replaces Malev 1:1 inside One World. SkyTeam on the other hand cover all the important markets with the big network of AF,KL,AZ,OK.
B-717/722/737-200/300/400/500/600/700/800/900/B-747-100/200/400/SP/8i/B-752/3/B-762/3/4/B-772/LR/300ER/B-788/DC-10-10/30/L-1011-1/500/MD-81/82/83/90/A-319/320/321/AB6/312/313/332/333/342/343/346/359/388/TU154/IL-18/ATR-42/72/DH4/DH3/E145/E170/190/CR2/7/9
 
vv701
Posts: 5773
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:54 am

RE: AF/KL, AB And EY Against LH

Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:58 pm

Quoting Delta777Jet (Reply 24):
One World at least in mainland Europe is weak,

According to Chart 53 here:

http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_.../01_ID_2010_Full_presentations.pdf

which dates back to May 2010, market shares in the European market were:

FR: 12 per cent
U2: 7 per cent
BA + IB: 7 per cent
AF/KL: 6 per cent
LH 5 per cent

Of course by the time you add it OY, BD, AB and HG; A3, JP, KF, LO, LX, OE, OU, SK, SN and TP; AZ and OK you may get a slightly different picture. But I would not have thought it would be numerically substantially different, particularly as AB/HG are Europe's sixth largest airline group. However I would expect Star to move up a bit, as SK and LX are quite large. So they may just be the leader of the alliances on European routes. If I am right that would leave Sky Team - AZ is no longer the force it once was and is certainly smaller than AB/HG - in the bottom position. But the differences in market shatre between the three alliances would remain small. These differences would not justify calling any of the alliances "weak" in Europe (unless you describe them all being "weak" compared to the European LCCs).
 
LOWS
Posts: 1194
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:37 am

RE: AF/KL, AB And EY Against LH

Sun Mar 11, 2012 3:26 pm

Quoting Delta777Jet (Reply 24):
My personal opinion is that OneWorld sooner or later merge with SkyTeam

That will be a bold new world we'd be living in, then. And one that competition authorities, regulators and consumer groups should have a long hard look at.

I think that the alliances have been a major boon to everyone. It's really great that I can earn miles on SZG-VIE-IAD-OKC. No rechecking bags in IAD, completely straight through. Seamless. But with three alliances, there's a degree of balance between all three. With only two alliances, the competition landscape will be radically altered.

AB and AF should watch out what they are doing here. Who knows where this might lead?
 
LJ
Posts: 4112
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

RE: AF/KL, AB And EY Against LH

Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:00 pm

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 1):

If AF/KL is really going to work with AB, I think the end of Transavia might be in sight.

Doubtful, AB doesn't have too many flights from France and The Netherlands. Moreover, the idea is to make life for LH difficult. This doesn't mean starting service ex The Netherlands or France...

Quoting SuperCaravelle (Reply 20):

When it is profitable for airlines to cooperate with airlines outside of their alliance, they will do so. An alliance is nothing more than a framework for stable code share arrangement, not a joint venture or anything of that kind. If it would be, it would be very anticompetitive and as such probably not allowed.

Incorrect, ideally an alliance is the substitute for a take over or merger. Thus ideally one would behave as such and create joint ventures so that one can act as one. If one uses the alliance as a marketing thing only, it's not using it's potential. The argument that this is anticompetitive and not allowed isn't correct either. First, the fact that something is anticompetitive is not an issue, joint ventures are only anticompetitive when they they are considered too have too much power (which isn't always the case).

Quoting SuperCaravelle (Reply 20):

The same holds for this plan. If AF/KL, AB and EY indeed have the plan to specifically destabilize LH with this agreement, it wouldn't be far fetched to call it predatory behavior, in which case anti competition authorities may need to step in.

Why predatory (in the legal sense)? Unless AB, AF/KL and EY start dumping practices in Germany they have nothing to fear. Why shouldn't a competitor not be allowed trying to destabilize LH (when using means which are allowed by law)?
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24557
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: AF/KL, AB And EY Against LH

Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:14 pm

Quoting Delta777Jet (Reply 24):
One World at least in mainland Europe is weak

How is the alliance with the largest intra-European market share (once AB joins next week) weak in Europe?
a.
 
vv701
Posts: 5773
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:54 am

RE: AF/KL, AB And EY Against LH

Sun Mar 11, 2012 6:39 pm

All this talk about AF and EY linking up with AB to fight LH seems a little far fetched to me. What is the source?

On Tuesday week, 20 March, AB and HG become full members of oneworld. So they will be likking up with BA, IB, OY and - if the sale goes trhrough - BD to fight AF/KL and LH in the European market. How could they also contemplate linking with AF and EY.

Oh! And here is my source:

http://www.oneworld.com/
 
LOWS
Posts: 1194
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:37 am

RE: AF/KL, AB And EY Against LH

Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:10 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 29):
All this talk about AF and EY linking up with AB to fight LH seems a little far fetched to me. What is the source?
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...operation-ft-deutschland-says.html

I agree. It seems like a bad and farfetched idea. It's based on EY's recent investment into AB. Also, if I am reading the Bloomberg article correctly, AF isn't talking directly to AB, they're talking to EY first.