delawareusa
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US Airways 767 Order, Why Didn't They Order 300s

Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:27 pm

US air got 6 767-200s from their acquisition of Piedmont. Then they ordered 6 more -200s why didn't they order 767-300s?
 
kaitak
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RE: US Airways 767 Order, Why Didn't They Order 300s

Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:50 pm

Don't forget also that this was US's first dip into the long haul market, so from that perspective, a 762 made more sense - and less risk, than the 763. Commonality with the (then) existing ex-PI 762 fleet must have been a factor as well.
 
WA707atMSP
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RE: US Airways 767 Order, Why Didn't They Order 300s

Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:04 pm

Piedmont's original 6 aircraft order was placed before the 767-300ER was launched.

I would not be surprised if US chose to order more -200ERs for commonality with their existing fleet, rather than have two small fleets of 200ERs and 300ERs.
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ouboy79
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RE: US Airways 767 Order, Why Didn't They Order 300s

Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:20 pm

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 5):

Piedmont's original 6 aircraft order was placed before the 767-300ER was launched.

I would not be surprised if US chose to order more -200ERs for commonality with their existing fleet, rather than have two small fleets of 200ERs and 300ERs.

I would be surprised if they did. The days are numbered on the 767 in the US fleet.
 
LOWS
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RE: US Airways 767 Order, Why Didn't They Order 300s

Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:28 pm

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 5):
I would not be surprised if US chose to order more -200ERs for commonality with their existing fleet, rather than have two small fleets of 200ERs and 300ERs.

Why? They've got A330s and A350s on order. If I'm not mistaken, their switching to an all Airbus fleet.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: US Airways 767 Order, Why Didn't They Order 300s

Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:30 pm

I doubt US will order any B-767s, no matter the model. They have the A-330-300/-200
 
eicvd
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RE: US Airways 767 Order, Why Didn't They Order 300s

Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:41 pm

Nobody is talking about a recent or future order by US for 767's, their talking about the past order by US!
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yyz717
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RE: US Airways 767 Order, Why Didn't They Order 300s

Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:46 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 4):
Don't forget also that this was US's first dip into the long haul market, so from that perspective, a 762 made more sense - and less risk, than the 763. Commonality with the (then) existing ex-PI 762 fleet must have been a factor as well.

Well said. This likely sums it up. US only operated 12 762's at its peak -- a rather small fleet. To add the 763 would have exasperated the motley collection of subtypes in a then very motley fleet.
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usflyer msp
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RE: US Airways 767 Order, Why Didn't They Order 300s

Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:47 pm

US had much more modest TATL aspirations back then and 763 probably would have been too much plane for them. It wasn't until the name change in 1997 that US really became focused on building a strong TATL network.
 
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RE: US Airways 767 Order, Why Didn't They Order 300s

Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:26 am

Quoting LOWS (Reply 7):
Why? They've got A330s and A350s on order. If I'm not mistaken, their switching to an all Airbus fleet.

The poster is talking in the past tense.


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WA707atMSP
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RE: US Airways 767 Order, Why Didn't They Order 300s

Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:27 am

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 6):
Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 5):

Piedmont's original 6 aircraft order was placed before the 767-300ER was launched.

I would not be surprised if US chose to order more -200ERs for commonality with their existing fleet, rather than have two small fleets of 200ERs and 300ERs.

I would be surprised if they did. The days are numbered on the 767 in the US fleet.
Quoting LOWS (Reply 7):
Why? They've got A330s and A350s on order. If I'm not mistaken, their switching to an all Airbus fleet.

I was referring to US' previous orders for the 767. The original poster asked why US did not choose the -300ER. I tried to state that the -300ER was not available when PI placed their original order, and, when US ordered additional 767s in the late 1980s, after the -300ER was available, they probably chose to buy more -200ERs for fleet commonality, instead of having a mixed fleet of -200ERs and -300ERs.

I agree with everyone else - a US order for more 767s now would be about as likely as a Cape Air order for 777s.
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RE: US Airways 767 Order, Why Didn't They Order 300s

Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:18 am

Quoting LOWS (Reply 7):
Why? They've got A330s and A350s on order. If I'm not mistaken, their switching to an all Airbus fleet.

Not to deviate too much of the original subject. Why are the US Airways A330-300s Pratt & Whiney powered and their A330-200s Rolls Royce Trent powered? I cannot quite understand the economics for using two different engine manufactures for the same basic type of aircraft. You cannot swap engines between the two models and you must stock two different engines types rather than one.
Anyone know a good reason for this?   
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capitalflyer
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RE: US Airways 767 Order, Why Didn't They Order 300s

Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:22 am

Could they switch these orders into options for 789?
 
jfk777
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RE: US Airways 767 Order, Why Didn't They Order 300s

Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:30 am

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 14):
Not to deviate too much of the original subject. Why are the US Airways A330-300s Pratt & Whiney powered and their A330-200s Rolls Royce Trent powered? I cannot quite understand the economics for using two different engine manufactures for the same basic type of aircraft. You cannot swap engines between the two models and you must stock two different engines types rather than one.

The A333 was ordered about 10 years before the A332 so they are really two different planes. The A333 is for east coast to Europe and nothing more. The A332 allows US to fly to Israel, fly from Phoenix to Europe should it want to, and Asia.

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 13):
I was referring to US' previous orders for the 767. The original poster asked why US did not choose the -300ER. I tried to state that the -300ER was not available when PI placed their original order, and, when US ordered additional 767s in the late 1980s, after the -300ER was available, they probably chose to buy more -200ERs for fleet commonality, instead of having a mixed fleet of -200ERs and -300ERs.

USair only had Business Class and Coach so they have a high passenger count for the 767-200ER, a 763ER might have been too many seats probably over 250.
 
boberito6589
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RE: US Airways 767 Order, Why Didn't They Order 300s

Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:31 am

Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 15):
Could they switch these orders into options for 789?

US does not have any aircraft on order with Boeing.
 
JHCRJ700
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RE: US Airways 767 Order, Why Didn't They Order 300s

Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:37 am

Quoting eicvd (Reply 9):
Nobody is talking about a recent or future order by US for 767's, their talking about the past order by US!

haha McFly hello anybody home?

An above poster stated that US is keeping their 762's until 2017? Is that true? What about Continental's 762's and Americans?
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steeler83
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RE: US Airways 767 Order, Why Didn't They Order 300s

Sun Mar 11, 2012 3:24 am

I thought US was trying to secure 767s to fly PIT-NRT, which I believe is some 6000 miles or so. They were unable to acquire the necessary aircraft tho, and therefore stopped pursuing that route. This was back in the early to mid '90s by the way. The poster who told me this didn't indicate if the planes were 763s or 762s with the appropriate engines. I believe some of the 762s had range capabilities of 6600 miles. Of course, PI didn't have those...

You know, given the time frame I was given here, I think they were going after the 762s with the extended range. Someone in this thread said the 763 wasn't launched until later in the decade...
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RE: US Airways 767 Order, Why Didn't They Order 300s

Sun Mar 11, 2012 3:49 am

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 14):
Why are the US Airways A330-300s Pratt & Whiney powered and their A330-200s Rolls Royce Trent powered? I

Very few, if any, of the recent A330s worldwide have been delivered with P&W engines. While I am not sure why, it probably has to do with the major advances that have been made on the A330 since the early days, and that at one point P&W stopped keeping up with upgrades for their engines, making them obsolete compared to the GE and Rolls engines. LX has PW powered A332 and opted for RR on their 333s, similar situation to US. Although there, the A333s were purchased to replace the A332s, and LH already operated RR-powered A333s. Keep in mind that PW has pretty much left the big commercial jet engine market, offers nothing for the 787, and so far their only modern project is the Engine Alliance venture with GE for the A380.

Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 15):
Could they switch these orders into options for 789?

That sure has turned into a funny thread.
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deltal1011man
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RE: US Airways 767 Order, Why Didn't They Order 300s

Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:19 am

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 20):

I would guess it is because the T700 and GE CF6 have high thrust variants vs the PW4000 for the A330.

I do believe KE ordered 332s not to long ago and went with PW. Could be wrong though.
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RE: US Airways 767 Order, Why Didn't They Order 300s

Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:54 am

Quoting JHCRJ700 (Reply 18):
What about Continental's 762's and Americans?

AA's newest 762 is from 1988, and I wouldn't expect such an old fleet to remain active for much longer.

The CO/UA 762ER's are quite a bit newer than any of the 762s at US/AA, all being delivered in 2000/2001. But even then I think (but cannot confirm) they're being phased out of the fleet. The oldest two of CO's late-model 762ER's are now serving with Omni Air International - they were sold off last summer - leaving a small sub-fleet of only eight aircraft.
 
USPIT10L
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RE: US Airways 767 Order, Why Didn't They Order 300s

Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:58 am

Quoting steeler83 (Reply 19):
I thought US was trying to secure 767s to fly PIT-NRT, which I believe is some 6000 miles or so. They were unable to acquire the necessary aircraft tho, and therefore stopped pursuing that route. This was back in the early to mid '90s by the way. The poster who told me this didn't indicate if the planes were 763s or 762s with the appropriate engines. I believe some of the 762s had range capabilities of 6600 miles. Of course, PI didn't have those...

IIRC, US was trying to get 767-300s, but couldn't secure a delivery slot. This was around 1991-92, when Sony had that plant in Westmoreland County.
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RE: US Airways 767 Order, Why Didn't They Order 300s

Sun Mar 11, 2012 6:05 am

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 14):
Not to deviate too much of the original subject. Why are the US Airways A330-300s Pratt & Whiney powered and their A330-200s Rolls Royce Trent powered? I cannot quite understand the economics for using two different engine manufactures for the same basic type of aircraft. You cannot swap engines between the two models and you must stock two different engines types rather than one.
Anyone know a good reason for this?   

My limited understanding is that US Airways ordered the A330-300 prior to the merger and was PW similar to the CFM A320 series. When they merged with America West, America West was a RR shop and that is why the later delivered A321 and new ordered A330-200 we ordered with RR. Now I have always heard that the RR was a better performer but I don't have any hard evidence for that.

I do think a lot of what decides engine choice after performance is maintenance preference/cost. Already have a lot of RR engines it will be easier and cheaper to add another RR as opposed to adding a GE
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FX1816
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RE: US Airways 767 Order, Why Didn't They Order 300s

Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:39 am

Quoting mpdpilot (Reply 24):
My limited understanding is that US Airways ordered the A330-300 prior to the merger and was PW similar to the CFM A320 series. When they merged with America West, America West was a RR shop and that is why the later delivered A321 and new ordered A330-200 we ordered with RR. Now I have always heard that the RR was a better performer but I don't have any hard evidence for that.

Ummm, those engines that AWE had on their A320's and A319's and now have on the new A321's are not RR but the IAE V2500.

Quoting mpdpilot (Reply 24):
I do think a lot of what decides engine choice after performance is maintenance preference/cost. Already have a lot of RR engines it will be easier and cheaper to add another RR as opposed to adding a GE

Only the 757 fleet is RR powered and that was common between both US and AWE before the merger.

FX1816
 
PITrules
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RE: US Airways 767 Order, Why Didn't They Order 300s

Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:54 am

My understanding is that Piedmont ordered six 762s, plus six options. USAir inherited the options for the 200s, which they subsequently exercised.

"Piedmont Airlines Thursday received its first Boeing 767-200 jet, which it plans to use on flights between Charlotte and London starting next month. The Winston-Salem-based airline has five more similar jets on order from Seattle-based Boeing Co. and has options on six more."

http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/...ort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM

Quoting steeler83 (Reply 19):
I thought US was trying to secure 767s to fly PIT-NRT, which I believe is some 6000 miles or so. They were unable to acquire the necessary aircraft tho, and therefore stopped pursuing that route.
Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 23):
IIRC, US was trying to get 767-300s, but couldn't secure a delivery slot. This was around 1991-92, when Sony had that plant in Westmoreland County.

NRT slots were much more difficult to obtain than 767 slots at the time, as it was a single runway airport and still dominant in Asia.

I often wondered how much influence that Sony plant had on PIT-Japan passenger demand, and Volkswagen before it to Germany. Obviously not enough to make a difference (ironically PIT gained its FRA flight after VW pulled out). But whenever the topic of LH's CLT-MUC comes up the first thing mentioned is the BMW plant in Spartanburg, SC.
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RE: US Airways 767 Order, Why Didn't They Order 300s

Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:14 am

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 14):
Not to deviate too much of the original subject. Why are the US Airways A330-300s Pratt & Whiney powered and their A330-200s Rolls Royce Trent powered?

I understand that PW made certain promises regarding the PW4000s on US A330s that they failed to keep. US was not happy. Remember, too, that they had another dozen or so PW-powered A330s on order when they ordered the RR-powered planes. They pushed the PW planes far into the future and then cancelled them.

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 20):
Very few, if any, of the recent A330s worldwide have been delivered with P&W engines.

I'm going to have to correct you on that one. Two A330s with PW have already been delivered this year (both to Malaysia Airlines). Last year 19 A330s were delivered with PW and that was up from 14 in 2010.

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 21):
I do believe KE ordered 332s not to long ago and went with PW.

   Five ordered in May of last year.

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 20):
P&W stopped keeping up with upgrades for their engines, making them obsolete compared to the GE and Rolls engines.

Far from it. PW continue to improve the PW4000.

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 20):
Keep in mind that PW has pretty much left the big commercial jet engine market

Not quite. Just last month two 767s with PW were delivered and the 767 tanker will keep the PW4000 in production for a long time.
 
jfk777
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RE: US Airways 767 Order, Why Didn't They Order 300s

Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:55 pm

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 20):
LX has PW powered A332 and opted for RR on their 333s, similar situation to US. Although there, the A333s were purchased to replace the A332s, and LH already operated RR-powered A333s.

The SWISS A333's were ordered by a different management then the A332 they inherited when LH merged with LX.

Quoting PM (Reply 27):

I'm going to have to correct you on that one. Two A330s with PW have already been delivered this year (both to Malaysia Airlines). Last year 19 A330s were delivered with PW and that was up from 14 in 2010.

P & W still has some customers like Korean Air buying its engines for their A330's. Northest's A330 fleet is P & W powered too.
 
transaeroyyz
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RE: US Airways 767 Order, Why Didn't They Order 300s

Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:01 pm

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 13):
their switching to an all Airbus fleet.

How ironic, and you call yourself US Airways, just kidding - maybe   
 
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PM
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RE: US Airways 767 Order, Why Didn't They Order 300s

Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:10 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 28):
P & W still has some customers like Korean Air buying its engines for their A330's.

Orders are rather thin on the ground, though.

Just the 5 for Korean last year.
In 2010 they 'kept' Malaysian with valuable orders for 19. They also placed six ex-Grupo Marsans A330s with Hong Kong Airlines. (But that was a net loss to them as Grupo Marsans had planned to take many more than six.)
In 2009 it was just 6 for Korean.
So, if you don't count Hong Kong Airlines (which was more of a fire sale than anything), the last new PW A330 customer was China Southern (for 10) in March 2008, or exactly four years ago.

Over the same time (four years) GE have added Air Asia X (3) and Iberia (8). Otherwise, RR have hoovered up!   
 
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RE: US Airways 767 Order, Why Didn't They Order 300s

Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:59 pm

Quoting transaeroyyz (Reply 29):
How ironic, and you call yourself US Airways, just kidding - maybe

I don't see any harm in that. Just like Aeroflot calls itself Aeroflot Russian (International?) Airlines. Only recently has Aeroflot been adding Russian built aircraft again.
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jfk777
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RE: US Airways 767 Order, Why Didn't They Order 300s

Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:23 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 30):
Over the same time (four years) GE have added Air Asia X (3) and Iberia (8).

GE is not pushing the CF6-80 series any more they are pushing the GE90 on the 777-300ER and the Gen X for the 787.
 
Molykote
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RE: US Airways 767 Order, Why Didn't They Order 300s

Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:51 pm

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 14):
Not to deviate too much of the original subject. Why are the US Airways A330-300s Pratt & Whiney powered and their A330-200s Rolls Royce Trent powered? I cannot quite understand the economics for using two different engine manufactures for the same basic type of aircraft. You cannot swap engines between the two models and you must stock two different engines types rather than one.
Anyone know a good reason for this?
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 16):
The A333 was ordered about 10 years before the A332 so they are really two different planes. The A333 is for east coast to Europe and nothing more. The A332 allows US to fly to Israel, fly from Phoenix to Europe should it want to, and Asia.
Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 20):
Very few, if any, of the recent A330s worldwide have been delivered with P&W engines. While I am not sure why, it probably has to do with the major advances that have been made on the A330 since the early days, and that at one point P&W stopped keeping up with upgrades for their engines, making them obsolete compared to the GE and Rolls engines. LX has PW powered A332 and opted for RR on their 333s, similar situation to US. Although there, the A333s were purchased to replace the A332s, and LH already operated RR-powered A333s. Keep in mind that PW has pretty much left the big commercial jet engine market, offers nothing for the 787, and so far their only modern project is the Engine Alliance venture with GE for the A380.

This:

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 21):
I would guess it is because the T700 and GE CF6 have high thrust variants vs the PW4000 for the A330.

The PW4168 is a great engine. It's just too bad that Pratt backed away from the higher thurst variants promised early on.
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USPIT10L
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RE: US Airways 767 Order, Why Didn't They Order 300s

Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:27 pm

Quoting PITrules (Reply 26):
I often wondered how much influence that Sony plant had on PIT-Japan passenger demand, and Volkswagen before it to Germany. Obviously not enough to make a difference (ironically PIT gained its FRA flight after VW pulled out). But whenever the topic of LH's CLT-MUC comes up the first thing mentioned is the BMW plant in Spartanburg, SC.

IINM, Bayer has more influence on PIT-Germany traffic than any other company in Pittsburgh. LGWPIT and CDGPIT never had any real corporate contracts tied to it, IINM. That was one of many factors on the decline/failure of PIT-Europe by US at PIT.

Quoting PITrules (Reply 26):
NRT slots were much more difficult to obtain than 767 slots at the time, as it was a single runway airport and still dominant in Asia.

I don't think the NRT slots were an issue at the time, US had problems getting the 767-300 itself. But then again, you could be correct. US was very, very naive at the time regarding international expansion. Other routes they didn't get at the time included a PHLMAN application from 1991. I'll have to check, but US may have even included their proposed schedule in the timetable at the time. I know it was on the route map inset in the back of the timetable.
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Polot
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RE: US Airways 767 Order, Why Didn't They Order 300s

Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:01 pm

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 31):
I don't think the NRT slots were an issue at the time, US had problems getting the 767-300 itself. But then again, you could be correct. US was very, very naive at the time regarding international expansion. Other routes they didn't get at the time included a PHLMAN application from 1991. I'll have to check, but US may have even included their proposed schedule in the timetable at the time. I know it was on the route map inset in the back of the timetable.

As the 763 is built on the same line as the 762, I don't understand how they could have had difficulty getting new build 763s but not 762s.

[Edited 2012-03-11 14:03:03]
 
Viscount724
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RE: US Airways 767 Order, Why Didn't They Order 300s

Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:39 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 25):
Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 20):
LX has PW powered A332 and opted for RR on their 333s, similar situation to US. Although there, the A333s were purchased to replace the A332s, and LH already operated RR-powered A333s.

The SWISS A333's were ordered by a different management then the A332 they inherited when LH merged with LX.

LX didn't inherit any A332s from LH and they didn't merge with LH. They are separate companies and LX has it's own management team. LX is a wholly-owned subsidiary of LH but LX definitely hasn't meged with LH.

The A332s were ordered by a completely different airline, Swissair, and were inherited when LX was created from former regional carrier Crossair to replace Swissair when they went bankrupt and shut down.
 
PITrules
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RE: US Airways 767 Order, Why Didn't They Order 300s

Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:28 pm

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 31):
US was very, very naive at the time regarding international expansion. Other routes they didn't get at the time included a PHLMAN application from 1991. I'll have to check, but US may have even included their proposed schedule in the timetable at the time. I know it was on the route map inset in the back of the timetable.

That MAN application was actually from PIT, and you are correct it was included in the timetable.
http://www.departedflights.com/US030191.html

Other denied applications were PIT-FCO/MXP.

US applied for PIT-FRA on the same day they applied for PIT-NRT; so this is why I believe NRT was a slot/bilateral issue more than aircraft related.
FLYi
 
USPIT10L
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RE: US Airways 767 Order, Why Didn't They Order 300s

Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:25 am

Quoting PITrules (Reply 34):
Other denied applications were PIT-FCO/MXP.

US applied for PIT-FRA on the same day they applied for PIT-NRT; so this is why I believe NRT was a slot/bilateral issue more than aircraft related.

Interesting. Never knew US applied for FCO and MXP from PIT. I knew about PHLMXP and the still-served PHLFCO. US didn't get the original application from PHL--it went to DL for an additional JFKMXP frequency.
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RE: US Airways 767 Order, Why Didn't They Order 300s

Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:31 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 29):
GE is not pushing the CF6-80 series any more they are pushing the GE90 on the 777-300ER and the Gen X for the 787.

I'm not quite sure what point you're making here. Surely they could "push" all three. Indeed, why wouldn't they?  

Anyway, "pushing" or not, they are still competing for CF6 orders. See Iberia.

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