LOWS
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Austrian: "All Signs Point To VO Transfer"

Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:03 pm

From today's Die Presse:

-Pilots reject Sparpaket (Savings Package)
-Negotiations have ended
-Transfer of operations to Tyrolean (VO) is likely, but with a termination cost in the hundreds of millions (unemployment benefits, etc.)
-4 777s to be acquired
-11 737s to be sold (the entire 737 fleet) for A320s
-New destinations (HEL, LCA, ATH, etc) are possible

Sorry, only in German
http://diepresse.com/home/wirtschaft...en?_vl_backlink=%2Fhome%2Findex.do
 
mercure1
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RE: Austrian: "All Signs Point To VO Transfer"

Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:03 pm

I got friends at OS, and frankly I think the employees have given enough in recent years. I recall atleast 3 rounds of cuts, with the gun to employee heads including the more recent pressure Lufthansa placed on employees in order to clear the OS takeover in 2009 under threat of shutting airline down.

Seems to be the bigger problem is not cost, but revenue, and or the business model. Maybe its true Austria cannot support a intercontinental airline, and maybe whatever OS becomes it instead should focus on maybe being a small European carrier solely with O&D markets from Vienna and forget the transit 6th freedom game once and for all.

It gets rather tiring however to continue to lay the blame and look for cuts from the staff year after year. To me something else needs to happen, and maybe starting fresh with VO is the needed strategic move.
 
LOWS
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RE: Austrian: "All Signs Point To VO Transfer"

Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:38 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 1):
To me something else needs to happen, and maybe starting fresh with VO is the needed strategic move.

I have to agree. Creating a new airline out of VO is probably the best way forward. I look forward to a new, prosperous and cost efficient Austrian. So, I hope this works. It did at LX, so my fingers are crossed.
 
LOWS
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RE: Austrian: "All Signs Point To VO Transfer"

Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:28 am

A quote that I missed yesterday:

"His greatest pressure is also coming from Dubai: Emirates is advertising [positions] to OS Pilots"

The point being that if OS does transfer operations to VO, many OS pilots my refuse and quit, leaving OS with a staff shortage at a critical moment. Pilots might also be allowed three years of future pay if OS terminates them. About 500k€ per pilot, depending on rank.

[Edited 2012-03-13 01:37:15]
 
Burkhard
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RE: Austrian: "All Signs Point To VO Transfer"

Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:43 am

What I do not get is why OS should get more 777 - isn't that aircraft too big for a rather small market?
 
Quokkas
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RE: Austrian: "All Signs Point To VO Transfer"

Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:48 am

Quoting LOWS (Reply 3):
Emirates is advertising [positions] to OS Pilots"

Emirates plans to recruit some 450 or so pilots this year and has changed the entry terms.

Quote:
"One change to Emirates pilot recruitment this year is that we will be hiring experienced pilot into captain roles within the organisation. Previously, all pilots, regardless of experience and qualifications, joined in the First Officer roles.

How many OS pilots would be tempted by this offer?
“Not to laugh, not to cry, not to hate, but understand.” Spinoza
 
cyba
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RE: Austrian: "All Signs Point To VO Transfer"

Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:48 pm

Quoting LOWS (Thread starter):
-New destinations (HEL, LCA, ATH, etc) are possible

What does that mean? OS already flies to LCA and ATH.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Austrian: "All Signs Point To VO Transfer"

Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:54 pm

Quoting LOWS (Reply 2):
I have to agree. Creating a new airline out of VO is probably the best way forward. I look forward to a new, prosperous and cost efficient Austrian. So, I hope this works. It did at LX, so my fingers are crossed.

The fundamental difference is that SR was bancrupt and LH could start a clean sheet airline with LX. It will be difficult to pull that trick with OS., hence the millions it will cost to re-organise the carrier.

They should have bought Niki Lauda years ago, pay him 5 Million€ a year and let him fly whatever hours per month he pleases, plus keep his job as RTL F1 commentator with the provision not to start another airline and advise OS on how to run an airline effficiently.

Thje problem is, Niki would never have done that deal.   He has much more fun starting new, lean clean sheet airlines competing with OS.
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ka
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RE: Austrian: "All Signs Point To VO Transfer"

Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:52 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 7):
The fundamental difference is that SR was bancrupt and LH could start a clean sheet airline with LX.

That was done to LX years before LH bought them.
Most fundamental steps were taken well before LH looked into them.

Ka.
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ytz
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RE: Austrian: "All Signs Point To VO Transfer"

Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:54 pm

OS needs an even simpler fleet than that. I'd say CSeries and 787s. That's it. The airline is basically Vienna airways. If you live in Salzburg, you're far more likely to take the train to Munich for a long haul flight, than go through Wien. There needs to be some recognition of this reality. 777s are too big for OS. I think it would make more sense for OS to focus on more destinations with smaller metal.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Austrian: "All Signs Point To VO Transfer"

Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:39 pm

Quoting ka (Reply 8):
That was done to LX years before LH bought them.

"years" is exaggerting, there have been secret negotiations between LH and various parties in these "years" which resulted in the pruchase of a lean carrier. LH had little to do with the legacy of Swissair, that makes the difference now with OS. LH cannot let OS go bancrupt and start with Tyrolean d/b/a Austrian the next day. Buying people out of their jobs is a costyl adventure in Europe.
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Aquila3
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RE: Austrian: "All Signs Point To VO Transfer"

Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:19 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 7):
They should have bought Niki Lauda years ago, pay him 5 Million€ a year and let him fly whatever hours per month he pleases, plus keep his job as RTL F1 commentator with the provision not to start another airline and advise OS on how to run an airline effficiently.

I do not ubderstand what you are saying. If you mean that the problems of OS are due to "the bad" concurrents, sorry I do not agree.
OS is the shame of *A in europe, at least. Fly Niky give you often a better product for the same of better price.
I belive it is entirely an OS problem, coming from their own people.
From their management, that mismanaged with the fleet, down through all the low level - employees.
They show always bad attitude with the customers (epecially non Austrians) and here the difference with the smart Niky people is abyssal. And now that they are in trouble, in place of starting to work better and harder in order to save their ass, they stat to arrass people with carry-on luggage limitations, in the worst ULCC style.
You might understand that with a full fare ticket in the pocket, it is not pleasant to be arrassed all the times (without reason as the scale proves ) mybe just because your non-arian look .

I hope they close down this circus ASAP and more than all that the taxpayers will not have to cover their failures.
Somebody will pick up their place, even FR or sure EZ would be much better.
Please
chi vola vale chi vale vola chi non vola è un vile
 
PanHAM
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RE: Austrian: "All Signs Point To VO Transfer"

Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:36 pm

What I was saying is basically that they have a feud with Niki Lauda ever since he dared to start his own airline in Austria in competition with OS. Instead of fighting him they should have teamed up with him.

However, that would not have worked., Lauda is someone who does not take orders and instructions, he cannot play in a team, that's why he builds up companies and sells them when they run profitably.

The biggest mistake whoich AUA did nowever was to buy Lauda Air and kept it running under stat name. I would have to go back into the details for which I don't have the time, but they ar still suffering from that today. The contract must have been bad as well, they should have written in the contract that Lauda is not allowed to run another airline for 10 years at least, they could obviously not imagine that this old fox sztarted one with his first name, better nick name. "Nikolausi" would still be an option. . .

I doubt that Lauda Air would hjave survived , but by all means, they had a damn good service, especially in J class.
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Semaex
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RE: Austrian: "All Signs Point To VO Transfer"

Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:42 pm

Quoting LOWS (Reply 3):
The point being that if OS does transfer operations to VO, many OS pilots my refuse and quit, leaving OS with a staff shortage at a critical moment.

There are enough pilots on the European market willing to step in I'm sure. [Just wait another year, I'll be there!]
OS could well turn this situation to its own advantage, by letting the old and costly Captains go East and upgrading the younger FOs with lower cost-structures, effectively reducing salaries but still making the FOs earn the left seat. Win-win, but probably more complex than that..

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 4):
What I do not get is why OS should get more 777 - isn't that aircraft too big for a rather small market?

Same here. Why not go for 787s instead, or for the time until they are delivered take some second hand 767s?
The 777s only make sense if the demand on existing routes is enormous (I am not in the knows), because starting up new routes is something I find very hard to imagine, given that MUC just around the corner will want to have its share in a growing Alps-market, especially when capacity increases even more with the T2-sat and the 3rd runway.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 7):
Thje problem is, Niki would never have done that deal.

Unlikely. It's still the racer in him which makes it impossible to make a deal where he is just number 2.
Besides, I think the market watchers would've had doubts about such a merger.
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Austrian: "All Signs Point To VO Transfer"

Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:54 pm

Quoting Semaex (Reply 13):
think the market watchers would've had doubts about such a merger.

I wasn't talking about a merger, I was talking about LH buying him personally for 5 Million p.a. to keep him from starting a new airline.

see my further remarks about that and that he is not someone taking orders from others. Neither is he someone that can do without a challenge.
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Aquila3
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RE: Austrian: "All Signs Point To VO Transfer"

Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:58 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 12):
I doubt that Lauda Air would hjave survived , but by all means, they had a damn good service, especially in J class.


I believe I have tried the product, but not sure, VIE-Istanbul .
Really, I remember that was good, clean and spacious, but nothing special: too much "Lachs" on the menu (a food that for inexplicable reasons Austrians seem really fond of) and a 767 machine, already not up to date around Y 2000. But I might be wrong (i.e. it could have been already an OS flight in Lauda colors) or I could have messed it even worse. My memory is really gone fried.
chi vola vale chi vale vola chi non vola è un vile
 
desediez
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RE: Austrian: "All Signs Point To VO Transfer"

Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:21 pm

Quoting LOWS (Thread starter):
-New destinations (HEL, LCA, ATH, etc) are possible

Sorry, only in German
http://diepresse.com/home/wirtschaft...en?_vl_backlink=%2Fhome%2Findex.do
Quoting Cyba (Reply 6):
Quoting LOWS (Thread starter):
-New destinations (HEL, LCA, ATH, etc) are possible

What does that mean? OS already flies to LCA and ATH.


This is already a wrong translation at the beginning as the linked article tells about axing destinations and not about adding new destinations...
 
LOWS
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RE: Austrian: "All Signs Point To VO Transfer"

Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:04 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 9):
If you live in Salzburg, you're far more likely to take the train to Munich for a long haul flight, than go through Wien

I'd rather fly SZG-VIE-XXX

Less stress, especially when it's a morning flight than having to rush off to MUC at 6am to make a flight and have to spend 45 minutes on the Sbahn in Munich.

Quoting Semaex (Reply 13):
There are enough pilots on the European market willing to step in I'm sure. [Just wait another year, I'll be there!]

You'll have to give us a secret signal 
Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 15):
too much "Lachs" on the menu (a food that for inexplicable reasons Austrians seem really fond of)

Because they are delicious and good for you. And better than Extrawurst or Leberkäse.

Quoting desediez (Reply 16):
This is already a wrong translation at the beginning as the linked article tells about axing destinations and not about adding new destinations...

Es tut mir lied. I was rushing through it.
 
mercure1
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RE: Austrian: "All Signs Point To VO Transfer"

Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:28 pm

I see LH plans to announce its latest “plan” for Austrian on Thursday. I guess this will be version 6.0 in last 6 years for Austrian. How many restructurings can one company have in so few years. Pretty amazing. Lol.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/luf...n-for-austrian-airlines-2012-03-13

Also read that former CCO Bierwitrh that resigned last week apparently did so due to “difference of opinion” from LH Group management.
 
Semaex
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RE: Austrian: "All Signs Point To VO Transfer"

Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:22 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 18):

Keep us up to date please! Interesting times ahead.

Quoting LOWS (Reply 17):
Less stress, especially when it's a morning flight than having to rush off to MUC at 6am to make a flight and have to spend 45 minutes on the Sbahn in Munich.

Nothing worse than going from your home via the centre of a busy city to an airport in slow and crowded trains!

Quoting LOWS (Reply 17):
You'll have to give us a secret signal

I'd have to learn Viennese dialect first   
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
 
r2rho
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RE: Austrian: "All Signs Point To VO Transfer"

Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:19 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 1):
Seems to be the bigger problem is not cost, but revenue, and or the business model. Maybe its true Austria cannot support a intercontinental airline, and maybe whatever OS becomes it instead should focus on maybe being a small European carrier solely with O&D markets from Vienna and forget the transit 6th freedom game once and for all.

Agree, but the problem is that the only way you can survive as an airline on EU flights alone is in the form of a LCC. All EU legacies are losing money on short haul, but make profits thanks to long haul. So it's either become an all-Eurpean LCC, or try somehow to make a limited long-haul operation work while cost-optimizing European ops.

Quoting YTZ (Reply 9):
If you live in Salzburg, you're far more likely to take the train to Munich for a long haul flight, than go through Wien.

How bad is the train to Vienna that people are actually willing to go through that? And if indeed so, maybe the Austrian government should think of upgrading that line to prevent MUC from stealing VIE's pax? With the airport connection to MUC being so slow, surely it can't be too difficult?

Quoting LOWS (Reply 3):
The point being that if OS does transfer operations to VO, many OS pilots my refuse and quit, leaving OS with a staff shortage at a critical moment.

Which could be turned into an advantage... there are plenty of ex-JK pilots looking for jobs right now at much cheaper rates, for instance.

Quoting YTZ (Reply 9):
OS needs an even simpler fleet than that. I'd say CSeries and 787s. That's it.

Completely agree. 777's? What are they thinking? Iffff long-haul is indeed sustainable from VIE, it is with the 787 or not at all. And in the meantime they could get some cheap 767's or have LH operate some A330s out of VIE.
 
LOWS
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RE: Austrian: "All Signs Point To VO Transfer"

Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:28 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 20):
How bad is the train to Vienna that people are actually willing to go through that? And if indeed so, maybe the Austrian government should think of upgrading that line to prevent MUC from stealing VIE's pax? With the airport connection to MUC being so slow, surely it can't be too difficult?

The VIE-SZG (Westbahn) line was the first to see the Railjet and times are down to 2h45m from Salzburg Hbf to Wien Westbahnhof with stops in Linz and St Polten. They are making further improvements to speed the line up, including new tracks that bypass a lot of the smaller stations and a new tunnel (Please correct me if I'm wrong here).

For passengers from Linz and St Polten, it's probably easier to fly with VIE as the air starting point vs. MUC. However, from SZG, it's usually much cheaper to take the train to MUC and fly from there versus flying from SZG through either FRA or VIE. Taking the Train to VIE is really only an option if your exVIE flight leaves in the afternoon or late morning.

There is a EuroCity train that leaves from Salzburg Hauptbahnhof around 7.40 which is perfect for TATL from MUC. Especially if you end up on the same platform as the Sbahn to MUC at München Ost.

The other problem with the train to VIE is that the train ends at Wien Westbahnhof, but the city airport train leaves from Wien Mitte (Landstraße). Furthermore, Mitte is being reconstructed right now, and is a mess (though it's been a few months since I was there) so the interchange from the U3 to the City Airport Train is difficult. It's probably easier (though more expensive) to take the taxi to Wien Mitte.

VO runs Q400s on SZG-VIE for a block time of, I think about 1 hour (only 40m, max flying). Unfortunately, it's rare for a connection through VIE from the provinces to be the most cost effective.

The other problem with flying from SZG is that VO/OS/LH has a monopoly on SZG to any decent longhaul connections. AB can get you to DUS, but then to go to LHR, there is sometimes an absurdly long connection. Or there is a LHR-LGW connection. There is no Skyteam service into SZG unless you count HV.

[Edited 2012-03-14 10:44:53]

[Edited 2012-03-14 10:45:17]

[Edited 2012-03-14 10:46:45]

[Edited 2012-03-14 10:50:20]

[Edited 2012-03-14 10:51:47]
 
ytz
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RE: Austrian: "All Signs Point To VO Transfer"

Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:22 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 20):
How bad is the train to Vienna that people are actually willing to go through that?

It's not that the train is bad. It's this:

Quoting LOWS (Reply 21):
VO runs Q400s on SZG-VIE for a block time of, I think about 1 hour (only 40m, max flying). Unfortunately, it's rare for a connection through VIE from the provinces to be the most cost effective.

I have a relative who lives in SZG and works for Puma. She travels a fair bit. I don't think in the year she's been in Austria, she's travelled through VIE once, other than a trip back home to India. Otherwise, for long-haul to the US and for intra-Europe short-haul it's whatever is on at SZG and then whatever is accessible at MUC. I found that surprising and asked her about it. She says, the company finds that this works out a lot cheaper. Seems to be the thing when you talk to the people there.
 
LOWS
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RE: Austrian: "All Signs Point To VO Transfer"

Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:48 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 22):
I have a relative who lives in SZG and works for Puma. She travels a fair bit. I don't think in the year she's been in Austria, she's travelled through VIE once, other than a trip back home to India. Otherwise, for long-haul to the US and for intra-Europe short-haul it's whatever is on at SZG and then whatever is accessible at MUC. I found that surprising and asked her about it. She says, the company finds that this works out a lot cheaper. Seems to be the thing when you talk to the people there.


MUC is a nice airport, but I'd much rather fly out of SZG and through VIE to support OS and for less stress. Unfortunately, I don't have unlimited funds.

Hopefully when VO takes over, more competitive labour costs will lead to more affordable fares.
 
Semaex
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RE: Austrian: "All Signs Point To VO Transfer"

Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:05 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 20):
How bad is the train to Vienna that people are actually willing to go through that? And if indeed so, maybe the Austrian government should think of upgrading that line to prevent MUC from stealing VIE's pax? With the airport connection to MUC being so slow, surely it can't be too difficult?

Having taken both the ICE and the Railjet between Linz and Vienna a lot of times, I can in all honesty state that the Railjet is a classy product, much more so than the ICE. If only the ÖBB (Austrian Train Service) was better at sticking to their time schedules...

Quoting r2rho (Reply 20):
Completely agree. 777's? What are they thinking? Iffff long-haul is indeed sustainable from VIE, it is with the 787 or not at all. And in the meantime they could get some cheap 767's or have LH operate some A330s out of VIE.

Just what I said.
777s no good. Go for 787s instead or 767s for the meantime.
LH 330s? Uuuuh you might be running into a couple of problems trying to convince OS staff to make way for LH long-haul planes out of their primary hub.

Quoting LOWS (Reply 21):
The other problem with the train to VIE is that the train ends at Wien Westbahnhof, but the city airport train leaves from Wien Mitte (Landstraße). Furthermore, Mitte is being reconstructed right now, and is a mess (though it's been a few months since I was there) so the interchange from the U3 to the City Airport Train is difficult. It's probably easier (though more expensive) to take the taxi to Wien Mitte.

Very true, the situation with all trains coming from West of Vienna (Germany, SZG...) ending at Westbahnhof is unfortunate for anyone going on to the airport, because you either have to take a cab to the airport, take the (uncomfy) bus or go by (even less adorable) U3 + S7 or (costly) CAT.
I hope as soon as the new Main Train Station (to the South of the city centre) is opened the situation becomes better. Trains from the West with timely onward connections straight to the airport would be a blessing for people coming from the areas around Linz / St. Pölten / Eisenstadt / Graz (basically anything W & S of Vienna)
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
 
LOWS
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RE: Austrian: "All Signs Point To VO Transfer"

Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:14 pm

Quoting Semaex (Reply 24):
ÖBB (Austrian Train Service) was better at sticking to their time schedules...

They've gotten a lot better over the past 1 or 1.5 years. My REx train in the morning is rarely anything more than a minute late.

Quoting Semaex (Reply 24):
I hope as soon as the new Main Train Station (to the South of the city centre) is opened the situation becomes better.

The problem is that the trains at West Bhf must reverse and go around. The whole infrastructure could stand to be redone, I've heard, but will never happen.
 
LOWS
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RE: Austrian: "All Signs Point To VO Transfer"

Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:02 pm

I almost forgot: now that Cirrus is dead (?) the connection SZG-ZRH is not any longer an effective option. Even with the Railjet, it's still a 6+ hour journey. Unless one takes the EuroNight from Salzburg the night before, or takes a Railjet with a 5 hour wait in Bregenz.

Is Cirrus dead, or is there any chance of LX or VO starting SZG-ZRH?
 
LHRFlyer
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RE: Austrian: "All Signs Point To VO Transfer"

Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:12 am

From Lufthansa's annual report published today (page 99 of the Adobe document and page 73 if following the numbering on the pages):

http://investor-relations.lufthansa....-reports/LH-AR-2011-e_igjfbwpf.pdf

"Austrian Airlines has set itself the goal of improving its operating result further in 2012. In view of persistently high fuel costs, however, achieving a balanced operating result for 2012 does not seem within reach from a current perspective. The continued restructuring of the company remains the top priority, because the operating environment is still difficult and could lead to lasting changes and further consolidation within the airline industry.

To meet the turnaround targets, the Executive Board of Austrian Airlines presented a work programme in early 2012 which requires contributions from all stakeholders and is made up of two thirds cost savings and one third increased revenue. On the revenue side, it is primarily enhanced sales activities in the home market and the introduction of new yield management systems that are to deliver higher income. The sale of eleven Boeing 737s is planned under the restructuring programme. Depending on further market developments, these will be replaced with up to seven Airbus A319/A320s and the medium-haul fleet will be harmonised around this model. The intention is also to revise the existing wage agreements in order to make staff costs competitive."
 
LHRFlyer
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RE: Austrian: "All Signs Point To VO Transfer"

Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:47 am

Bloomberg reports that Lufthansa is to make an equity injection of €183m into Austrian:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...83-million-to-ensure-survival.html

Quote:
Deutsche Lufthansa AG (LHA), Europe’s second-biggest airline, will boost the equity of its Austrian Airlines unit by 140 million euros ($183 million) and approve the lease of Airbus SAS jets to ensure the business’s survival.

Lufthansa’s supervisory board endorsed the payment to alleviate Austrian Air’s “critical” situation, on the condition that agreed restructuring plans be fully implemented, the Cologne, Germany-based company said today.

“In return, we expect an indispensable contribution from works councils and trade unions,” Chief Executive Officer Christoph Franz said in Frankfurt. “Market-oriented, competitive employment conditions” must be enforced for air crew, he added.
 
something
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RE: Austrian: "All Signs Point To VO Transfer"

Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:51 am

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 5):
Quote:
"One change to Emirates pilot recruitment this year is that we will be hiring experienced pilot into captain roles within the organisation. Previously, all pilots, regardless of experience and qualifications, joined in the First Officer roles.

How many OS pilots would be tempted by this offer?

I would believe relocating to the Gulf is only an alternative to some. You can either live in historical Vienna, your home, where your family is and your native language is spoken, where you live in free democracy.. or you can move to the desert sands where going outside is only possible in winter, where pre-marital sex is punishable by law and women's rights are curtailed left, right and center. Should be hard to convince your family to move there, unless you absolutely have to.

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 11):
OS is the shame of *A in europe, at least. Fly Niky give you often a better product for the same of better price.

Really? I have flown them PEK-VIE on a 763 recently and I loved it. The airplane is a joke compared to the LH A388 on FRA-PEK, but the flight attendants (though old and ''curvy'') could not have been any more hospitable. Curiously, they all spoke 'Hochdeutsch'.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 18):
Also read that former CCO Bierwitrh that resigned last week apparently did so due to “difference of opinion” from LH Group management.

And will be replaced by a German. Any Austrian insights how this is going down with the staff? Are they okay with it and see Germany as their partner, or are they unhappy with it like Greece?

Quoting r2rho (Reply 20):
prevent MUC from stealing VIE's pax?

The majority of flights at MUC is either operated by LH directly or by their Star Alliance partners. It doesn't really matter to the LH group which of their flights you take.

And you should also consider that just because a city is in Austria, another Austrian airport doesn't have to be their best connection choice. But this works both ways. BCN-PEK via VIE is much shorter than via MAD. And there are numerous such examples.
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
rosterdriven
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RE: Austrian: "All Signs Point To VO Transfer"

Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:26 am

Quoting something (Reply 29):
And will be replaced by a German. Any Austrian insights how this is going down with the staff? Are they okay with it and see Germany as their partner, or are they unhappy with it like Greece?

The guy that has been replaced was a German too, no change. Funny times ahead.  
 
mercure1
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RE: Austrian: "All Signs Point To VO Transfer"

Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:17 pm

So appears the "news" of today was LH Group simply pumping more Euros into the loss making enterprise while continues to strongly beg employees to also open their pockets.

Does not sound like a winning strategy to me.

I still say a more drastic and strategic overhaul of Austrian and its place in the market is needed. Simply swapping 737 for A320 and buying new yield management software will not solve the inherit deficiencies nor change the outside market realities.
 
LOWS
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RE: Austrian: "All Signs Point To VO Transfer"

Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:24 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 31):
So appears the "news" of today was LH Group simply pumping more Euros into the loss making enterprise while continues to strongly beg employees to also open their pockets.

It's to help them restructure and, I believe this will also go for the new (used) A320s for the shorthaul fleet.
 
Semaex
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RE: Austrian: "All Signs Point To VO Transfer"

Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:07 pm

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 27):

Interesting. Let go of 11 737s and replace them with up to 7 A32x

Quoting something (Reply 29):
Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 11):
OS is the shame of *A in europe, at least. Fly Niky give you often a better product for the same of better price.

Really?

As Niki doesn't have a long-haul operation it's pointless to compare them with a OS 763 from PEK. Apples and Bananas.
So if we purely compare the short-haul ops, I must admit that Niki has a very solid product. AB can definitely learn a lot from them!

Quoting something (Reply 29):
The airplane is a joke compared to the LH A388 on FRA-PEK, but the flight attendants (though old and ''curvy'') could not have been any more hospitable. Curiously, they all spoke 'Hochdeutsch'.

Obviously. It's a must. There are too many accents within Austria itself to simple be able to speak "Austrian German". You must level off at the common denominator.

Quoting something (Reply 29):
The majority of flights at MUC is either operated by LH directly or by their Star Alliance partners. It doesn't really matter to the LH group which of their flights you take.

It does however matter to OS staff. Shifting more and more flights to MUC, instead of focussing on VIE will not please the Austrian fellows. I feel with them, and I can understand their anger if LH were just using the company to increase profits. I hope that LH management knows that OS is more than just a number on a piece of paper.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 31):
So appears the "news" of today was LH Group simply pumping more Euros into the loss making enterprise while continues to strongly beg employees to also open their pockets.

Does not sound like a winning strategy to me.

I tend to dissagree. Pumping more money into a loss-making company shows that there is hope that OS can survive the current climate. LH is trying to gain trust amongst the OS employees, the basis of a healthy cooperation, and what other way to signalize that this venture is not a lost cause than financial aid.
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
 
macc
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RE: Austrian: "All Signs Point To VO Transfer"

Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:39 am

Used OS this week to DME since a long time again and wont go for it so soon. I am a business traveler and have to admit that they do have lost much of their benefits for me. I am using HG most of the times, the planes are on time, the on board product, especially food is perfect and they are usually much cheaper than OS on the DME run.

The decrease of benefits of Miles and More, the new baggage fee regulation (+60 € for additional bag) all work for Fly Niki.
I dont wonder at all that their revenues went down.
I exchanged political frustration with sexual boredom. better spoil a girl than the world
 
something
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RE: Austrian: "All Signs Point To VO Transfer"

Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:38 am

Quoting Semaex (Reply 33):
Shifting more and more flights to MUC, instead of focussing on VIE will not please the Austrian fellows.

Apparently, it's not LH that is shifting the traffic, but the MUC preference seems to be the traveller's choice. You could argue that LH/OS should focus on the domestic market and establish a more competitive feeder network, but that doesn't automatically mean that the customers will use it, nor that it'll make money.

Think about it logically. It doesn't matter to LH's pockets which airport you use, MUC is already operating at capacity limits during peak times and VIE is chronically underused. They also don't make money off the the SZG-MUC leg if people take the train or car. In other words, it's not even in LH's interest to lure even more traffic into MUC, as opposed to funneling it through VIE and supporting their operations there.

Quoting Semaex (Reply 33):
Quoting something (Reply 29):
The airplane is a joke compared to the LH A388 on FRA-PEK, but the flight attendants (though old and ''curvy'') could not have been any more hospitable. Curiously, they all spoke 'Hochdeutsch'.

Obviously. It's a must. There are too many accents within Austria itself to simple be able to speak "Austrian German". You must level off at the common denominator.

But even at the airport, you could hardly hear their Austrian accent at all, if that. I found that a bit disappointing. Swiss and ZRH staff don't sound Hochdeutsch at all.

Quoting Semaex (Reply 33):
I hope that LH management knows that OS is more than just a number on a piece of paper.

If OS is really so atrocious on short haul, maybe they should stop treating their customers like one.
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
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Aquila3
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RE: Austrian: "All Signs Point To VO Transfer"

Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:59 am

Quoting LOWS (Reply 23):
MUC is a nice airport, but I'd much rather fly out of SZG and through VIE to support OS and for less stress. Unfortunately, I don't have unlimited funds.

Do you guess why most of the people in Italy believe that Salzburg is in Bayern?
Do not get me wrong, I absolutely love Salzburg as a tourist, as all the people that I know (and that I sent there).
But it is located where it is . And with a true European mentality (the one that we were dreaming when we were young and naive in '89) that should not pose a problem. And, say that with my latin eyes I see much common cultural aspect between Austria an Bayern. Note that I said Bayern and not Germany.

And, a little OT, there is the more general question of why Austria went in EU. That was a kind of shock for me.
I would have swear ed that they would stay out like CH, and possibly grow the connection with them.
Not that I am saying that it would be better, I really do not know.
But what is done is done and the result is that Austria is suffering the cultural and economic dominance of the "Grosse Deutschland". This is what I see every day with my foreigner eyes in VIE. If I have to believe the words of many Vienese this can't work, but I see that the "integration" with the rest of the German world is going smoothly in practice in most cases. There is sure a change of mentality needed in the passage from a smaller protected word to an open and aggressive one, and that is what is going on at AUA (OS). I see Vienna the most reluctant place to change its mentality, when Graz, on the other way is fully launched in EU.
I apologise in adance for the above and for what my latin brain could not understand.

Again on topic, I believe OS has to rationalize its fleet and network, focusing on VIE as a (mini?) hub for the East Europe.
Austria has a lot of interests and business withe the ex-emperor countries and with the Russians, and they are still highly trusted over there. There will be further sacrifices and losses, but there is no way that the old small world will come back. Anyway the Austrian people can do it brilliantly and the prove are those youngs with the grey - fly uniform (Niky).
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Buyantukhaa
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RE: Austrian: "All Signs Point To VO Transfer"

Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:19 am

Quoting LOWS (Reply 25):
The problem is that the trains at West Bhf must reverse and go around. The whole infrastructure could stand to be redone, I've heard, but will never happen.

I doubt that would happen on fast trains, which I expect to go to the main station directly. West will likely remain the terminal for regional/suburban trains, but will lose quite a bit of importance; otherwise it would not make sense to completely redo Suedbf.
I scratch my head, therefore I am.
 
Semaex
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RE: Austrian: "All Signs Point To VO Transfer"

Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:14 am

Quoting buyantukhaa (Reply 37):
West will likely remain the terminal for regional/suburban trains, but will lose quite a bit of importance; otherwise it would not make sense to completely redo Suedbf.

While saying that I agree that long-distance trains should all go to the new Main Station (previously Süd-/Ostbahnhof), I must also say that it was somewhat a waste of money then to also redo the Westbahnhof completely! I mean, it looks nice now, very elegant and modern, and with all the ICEs and Railjets coming and going it has a somewhat mighty feeling to it (plus it still officially is the Main Train Station of the capital of Austria - therefore the square in front of it still enjoys the "Europaplatz" name), but if you think about the fact that all those fancy trains will soon leave, it's going to look just as sad a place as it did before the rebuild...


Anyways, back on topic. Aquila brought up a good point, that OS should mainly focus on the nations East of Vienna. I do not know how strong the relations are between those nations and Austria, but from a geographical standpoint it makes a lot of sense, and I believe LH and OS should focus their efforts on gaining a larger share in those markets. Now that Malev is gone you would've thought that the game just got a lot easier? I know FR tapped onto MA shares at BUD, but they are quite unlike carriers in many respects, so I could see pax wanting to switch to something less no-frill than FR, so OS should pick that up.

... that would also explain why OS isn't too worried about SZG traffic routing via MUC, as they are "too far West" to be in their major catchment area. Just a wild guess.
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
 
vfw614
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RE: Austrian: "All Signs Point To VO Transfer"

Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:17 pm

I have been asking myself why Lufthansa allows all those smallish subsidiaries like Austrian, bmi and Brussels to operate a handful of longhaul planes independently. Wouldn't it make more sense to have those flights operated by a common long-haul platform and if national aspects are really important, just brand the product differently from the outside (Austrian opb XY, Brussels Airlines opb XY, bmi opb XY) - I suppose that as far as traffic rights ar concerned, you could work around that if necessary through pro forma subsidiaries.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Austrian: "All Signs Point To VO Transfer"

Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:32 pm

They do already central purchasing to get all the synergy effects. Whatever else can be done will certainly done under the SCORE guidelines.
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LOWS
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RE: Austrian: "All Signs Point To VO Transfer"

Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:47 pm

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 36):

And, a little OT, there is the more general question of why Austria went in EU. That was a kind of shock for me.
I would have swear ed that they would stay out like CH, and possibly grow the connection with them.
Not that I am saying that it would be better, I really do not know.
But what is done is done and the result is that Austria is suffering the cultural and economic dominance of the "Grosse Deutschland". This is what I see every day with my foreigner eyes in VIE. If I have to believe the words of many Vienese this can't work, but I see that the "integration" with the rest of the German world is going smoothly in practice in most cases. There is sure a change of mentality needed in the passage from a smaller protected word to an open and aggressive one, and that is what is going on at AUA (OS). I see Vienna the most reluctant place to change its mentality, when Graz, on the other way is fully launched in EU.
I apologise in adance for the above and for what my latin brain could not understand.

Austria had to join the EU for a number of reasons, mainly relating to Germany. In the 80s, we began to feel the hangover from the Kriesky "Island of the Blessed" Era. High inflation, labour issues, declining competitiveness. We had to do something. Joining the EU was, as Univ. Prof. Dr. Mag. Reinhard Heinisch loves to put it, an „Escape to save Austria from Austrians.“ That is to say: free trade within Europe, increased competitiveness, with Maastricht some fiscal restraint, access to Union cohesion funds, etc.

We needed to do something, and the EU was an excellent way to do it. Prior to our joining the Union we had no participation in EFTA, Schengen, etc.

Of course in Vienna they are going to say things like that. Viennese think they are the best people on earth. God help you if you should wear something other than a tie and tailored pants everywhere. I put on my best jacket and use my best manners when I go to Cafe Landtmann (for example) but still feel out of place. Some farmer friends of mine that I took there felt awkward the whole time.

Salzburg is quite the opposite. To even get to Pinzgau (40 minutes away) you have to travel through Germany. In the last 18 years, it's become a seamless thing. You can even take the Sbahn direct from (for example) Hallein to Bad Reichenhall. That's pretty neat. And frankly, previously unthinkable.

[Edited 2012-03-16 07:01:38]
 
LAXintl
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RE: Austrian: "All Signs Point To VO Transfer"

Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:22 pm

So in a best case scenario what is the strategic road for OS eventually?


Stay a network carrier playing the crowded East-West connecting game (as of 2009 – 61% of OS boardings were transfers) or become more Vienna Airways, and focus on the thicker O&D markets?

Frankly to me remaining a full fledged hub airline focused on transit flows will continue to be problematic. Not only is this game very crowded with many options, it by nature produces lower yield traffic. Unless you can balance this with a high premium local component to offset. Sadly as someone has done extensive business in recent years in Austria and aware of OS struggles, I don’t see OS really providing anything special or key to earning such a hub spot in ever difficult market place. Yes OS has some interesting central/east European markets, but none of those is really a big driver, nor are the markets where business suit and tie traffic drives demand, its mostly average folks travelling to visit families etc.. Also another issue I have noted is the Austrian home market. Its not as strong as Switzerland for example where Swiss can enjoy a stronger home market to drive passengers, higher yield revenues, and also lots of cargo which offsets any transfer dilution.

But becoming a Vienna Airways can also be problematic as European airline business has been polarized between the full service airlines(many which are struggling on intra-Europe flying) and the price oriented LCCs. The entire pricing and distribution structure might not still match the cost structure which OS is left after even the most hopeful restructuring. Can OS survive head to head positioned in point to point O&D flying going what will undoubtedly be a gang of LCCs? Will its Star Alliance affiliation help draw out enough quality or service oriented revenue passengers versus those that are simply price oriented??

In the mean time, yes I agree things like the fleet need rationalization are needed fast – Unfortunately between the OS / Lauda and Austrian Arrow fleets the group has become like a used car dealership with a few models of almost every model available.

However the bigger question beyond Airbus versus Boeing to me is where will a future OS be positioned in the market??
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