JU068
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Turkey Says No To Israeli Security

Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:28 am

Good morning,


Arkia Israel Airlines, which is planning on launching direct flights from Tel Aviv to Antalya has requested from the Turkish government a specific area designated for security screening.

The Turkish government has turned down the request.

In their letter, Arkia listed the following as conditions for their flights:

- specific security area
- the right to oversee security provisions themselves
- the right to use the security devices themselves in order to ensure safety for their passengers.
- 20 free passes for Israeli security officials which would supervize the 4 to 6 flights per week.
- 3 Israeli security officials permanently on call at Antalya airport.
- Modification of the security procedure by introducing widespread use of x-ray machines.
- additional space in front of check-ins where they can check luggage.
- private rooms where they can question suspicious passengers.


The Turkish government stated that there are no such designated security areas at Turkish airports, and they do not understand why Arkia needs then when flying into Turkey. The government added that in case Arkia insists on asking for them, they will revoke their flying permit.

I know this is standard security for Israeli airlines, but personally the part, ''...themselves in order to ensure safety for their passengers'' shows a clear lack of respect towards the Turkish security forces.

I wounder what will happen and if Arkia will accept the standard security procedures or will they abandon the flights. It would be much easier if Pegasus or Atlasjet took over the market, since they would make the flying experience much nicer.

Was it Copenhagen airport that refused the same? What happened there, did they manage to resolve their issues?

http://www.todayszaman.com/news-2740...curity-for-flights-to-antalya.html
 
TheCol
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RE: Turkey Says No To Israeli Security

Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:39 am

Quoting ju068 (Thread starter):
- Modification of the security procedure by introducing widespread use of x-ray machines.
Quoting ju068 (Thread starter):
- private rooms where they can question suspicious passengers.

I don't understand why those can't be made available, since they are already in widespread use.

Quoting ju068 (Thread starter):
The government added that in case Arkia insists on asking for them, they will revoke their flying permit.

Sounds like the usual crap coming from Turkey these days.
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aeroblogger
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RE: Turkey Says No To Israeli Security

Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:47 am

Kudos to Turkey   
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JU068
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RE: Turkey Says No To Israeli Security

Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:50 am

Quoting TheCol (Reply 1):
I don't understand why those can't be made available, since they are already in widespread use.

Why should Turkey pay for additional unnecessary security equipment, for an airport that is mostly used in summer? If the Israeli government is so keen on having those machines why don't they buy them and set them up there. I do not see why the Turkish tax payers should fund Israeli paranoia.
 
lewis
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RE: Turkey Says No To Israeli Security

Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:15 am

If Turkey sees no benefit in spending money to accommodate one airline at an airport that is mostly a seasonal destination, then they are within their rights to refuse. I remember going through security at least twice in Turkish airports so I don't see why their security would be considered insufficient.
 
saloman
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RE: Turkey Says No To Israeli Security

Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:15 am

Israel has a right to request this, and Turkey a right to deny it. That being said, given the inflammatory rhetoric coming from Ankara these days I certainly don't blame the Israelis for being weary of the security their flights will receive in Turkey. I for one think this has more to do with Turkish politics with relation to the rest of the Muslim world - why else would the government leak this to Turkish media? A real shame because nobody wins in this scenario, certainly not the passenger and the tourism industry.
 
N1120A
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RE: Turkey Says No To Israeli Security

Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:24 am

Quoting TheCol (Reply 1):
I don't understand why those can't be made available, since they are already in widespread use.

Um, what? Special rooms for Israeli security people to harass passengers? Since when are those in "widespread use" in Turkey?
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saloman
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RE: Turkey Says No To Israeli Security

Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:31 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 6):

You don't think Turkish airports have secondary screening areas?

And harass is a word I associate more with TSA than Israeli security. I find being asked questions far less invasive than a TSA pat down.
 
Quokkas
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RE: Turkey Says No To Israeli Security

Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:23 am

Quote:
"Planning to offer four to six flights a week between June and October...(AYT) receives 10 million tourists a year."

Anyone familiar with AYT? Does the airport have sufficient space to afford one airline extra space for less than daily flights? Politics no doubt plays a role but would a lack of space offer a plausible excuse to deny the request? Is AYT security different to IST where your bags get scanned before you enter the terminal?

Would such an offer be based on reciprocity, i.e. if Israeli carriers can set up their own nationals to manage security at foreign airports, does Israel offer foreign carriers the right to do the same in Israel?
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N1120A
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RE: Turkey Says No To Israeli Security

Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:52 am

Quoting saloman (Reply 7):
And harass is a word I associate more with TSA than Israeli security. I find being asked questions far less invasive than a TSA pat down.

Given my experience with a snot nosed punk of an El Al "security" guy at LAX while plane spotting, I consider it harassment.
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PM
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RE: Turkey Says No To Israeli Security

Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:01 am

Israel may have unique security worries but I have found the experience of entering and leaving (!) the country deeply offensive. So much so, that I won't be returning. "You make me feel like a criminal for wanting to visit your country," was how I put it (politely) to the young lady who spent over an hour checking all my hotel receipts and restaurant bills last time I tried to fly out of Tel Aviv. I therefore find it hard not to applaud Turkey's stand on this.
 
Tupolev160
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RE: Turkey Says No To Israeli Security

Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:20 am

Because of security harassment, traveling by plane becomes more and more of a hassle and it's becoming like that all over the world. An we, passengers, are paying an average of 50 Eur per ticket for the security procedures they make us go through. Besides Israel, we often forget to mention the India as one of the countries enforcing the most-extreme security screening and procedures.

[Edited 2012-03-13 03:02:25]
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flyboy_se
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RE: Turkey Says No To Israeli Security

Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:15 am

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 11):
Besides Israel, we often forget to mention the India as one of the countries enforcing the most-extreme security screening and procedures.

I travelled last year several times to India, did not notice anything more extreme than at other airports.

I guess Turkey has every right to deny other airlines requests, not matter what country they are from. Is Arkia the only Israeli airline flying there? I think i read a TR here on a flight from TLV-AYT.
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aeroblogger
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RE: Turkey Says No To Israeli Security

Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:24 am

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 11):
Besides Israel, we often forget to mention the India as one of the countries enforcing the most-extreme security screening and procedures.

I disagree completely.

Unlike the USA, India does not give all its passengers cancer by using x-ray technology to scan people.. While a pat-down is required, it's usually not particularly intrusive. In fact, usually pat-downs at malls are more intrusive than those at the airport....

Also, India does not profile against brown people, something that annoys me greatly at USA airports... No hourlong questioning sessions in back rooms for having a funny sounding name either....
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atcsundevil
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RE: Turkey Says No To Israeli Security

Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:57 am

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 13):
Unlike the USA, India does not give all its passengers cancer by using x-ray technology to scan people.. While a pat-down is required, it's usually not particularly intrusive. In fact, usually pat-downs at malls are more intrusive than those at the airport....

Also, India does not profile against brown people, something that annoys me greatly at USA airports... No hourlong questioning sessions in back rooms for having a funny sounding name either....

This is off-topic in so many ways. If you're convinced TSA profiles "brown" people and it bothers you, then don't come...no one is forcing you to fly here. I flew out of EWR this morning and saw plenty of "brown" people not being harassed; I'm a white guy and I got the pat-down. I must have gotten profiled.

Quoting ju068 (Thread starter):
In their letter, Arkia listed the following as conditions for their flights:

- specific security area
- the right to oversee security provisions themselves
- the right to use the security devices themselves in order to ensure safety for their passengers.
- 20 free passes for Israeli security officials which would supervize the 4 to 6 flights per week.
- 3 Israeli security officials permanently on call at Antalya airport.
- Modification of the security procedure by introducing widespread use of x-ray machines.
- additional space in front of check-ins where they can check luggage.
- private rooms where they can question suspicious passengers.

I don't think these are unreasonable requests provided Arkia and/or Israel provides the funding. Turkey stands to benefit from this service and if they aren't asked to fund those requests, then their objections are purely subjective. However, dozens of airports in dozens of countries around the world have dealt with these same requests and have implemented them. Irrespective of the fact that these demands require a lot from AYT, if they want the service they'll have to play ball like the rest of us. In my opinion, Turkey is likely facing political pressure from neighboring states (particularly now) and the perception that they might be "giving in" won't sit too well with some.
 
leftyboarder
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RE: Turkey Says No To Israeli Security

Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:20 am

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 14):
I don't think these are unreasonable requests provided Arkia and/or Israel provides the funding. Turkey stands to benefit from this service and if they aren't asked to fund those requests, then their objections are purely subjective. However, dozens of airports in dozens of countries around the world have dealt with these same requests and have implemented them. Irrespective of the fact that these demands require a lot from AYT, if they want the service they'll have to play ball like the rest of us. In my opinion, Turkey is likely facing political pressure from neighboring states (particularly now) and the perception that they might be "giving in" won't sit too well with some.

You said "If you're convinced TSA profiles "brown" people and it bothers you, then don't come...no one is forcing you to fly here." I think you should take a page from your own book and accept that, if Israeli tourists and airlines do not want to, they are free to avoid Turkey. If Turkish authorities believe that the security procedures are enough and do not want to cave in to Arkia just so they can get a few thousand more tourists, then Arkia is free to impose its requests and fly to other neighboring countries like Jordan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Sudan.... It's not who pays for these security measures, but who has jurisdiction at a Turkish airport. A 3 minute interview during boarding is one thing, a separate interrrogation room is another.
 
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PM
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RE: Turkey Says No To Israeli Security

Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:21 am

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 14):
In my opinion, Turkey is likely facing political pressure from neighboring states (particularly now) and the perception that they might be "giving in" won't sit too well with some.

Said neighbouring states being...? Seems to me that Israel has successfully burned its bridges with Turkey without any "neighbouring" states needing to be involved or invoked.

Back on topic, does El Al (or Arkia) fly to any other Turkish airports and, if so, do they enjoy these privileges?
 
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atcsundevil
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RE: Turkey Says No To Israeli Security

Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:59 am

Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 15):

You're right, but based on what I said, this all depends on how badly Turkey wants the service and if it's in their best interest to support such a venture. Do I think Turkey can adequately manage a security checkpoint? Of course I do. Should they cater to Israeli security demands? Depends, because like you said, it is sovereign Turkish soil where Israeli law enforcement have no jurisdiction, but you also can't fault a carrier wanting to go a step further to improve security. And it does matter who pays for this because this burden should not be on the airport, it should be on the airline and the country demanding these things be implemented. If we're talking about a spare room and a few metal detectors, that's one thing; but depending on the layout of the available space in the airport, some of those demands could require a significant remodel of the terminal that could cost some real money.

Quoting PM (Reply 16):

Neighboring states being Muslim allies in the region, obviously -- not to say that's all that's important to them -- Turkey also has a great interest in appeasing Europe, too. Of course Israel has burned bridges with many countries, but burning bridges doesn't count for much when there's money involved...that's the first chapter in any economics book. Aviation brings together different countries/regions that is virtually unrivaled by any other industry; if this flight means economic growth for Turkey, then burned bridges become less significant.
 
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Pellegrine
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RE: Turkey Says No To Israeli Security

Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:09 pm

Quoting saloman (Reply 5):
Israel has a right to request this

Israel has no legal or specific right to request anything outside its own sovereign jurisdiction.

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 14):
This is off-topic in so many ways. If you're convinced TSA profiles "brown" people and it bothers you, then don't come...no one is forcing you to fly here. I flew out of EWR this morning and saw plenty of "brown" people not being harassed; I'm a white guy and I got the pat-down. I must have gotten profiled.

There are plenty of "brown" Americans who have lodged similar complaints. Being Indian or non-American has nothing to do with the issue.
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aeroblogger
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RE: Turkey Says No To Israeli Security

Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:13 pm

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 14):
This is off-topic in so many ways. If you're convinced TSA profiles "brown" people and it bothers you, then don't come...no one is forcing you to fly here. I flew out of EWR this morning and saw plenty of "brown" people not being harassed; I'm a white guy and I got the pat-down. I must have gotten profiled.
Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 18):
There are plenty of "brown" Americans who have lodged similar complaints. Being Indian or non-American has nothing to do with the issue.

I'm an American passport holder (Overseas Citizen of India), who lived in the USA for over 10 years... Kinda hard to avoid the TSA when I have to deal with them to fly out of my home city  
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Turkey Says No To Israeli Security

Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:25 pm

So, let me get this straight. Some of you think Israel has a right to have additional screening features in nearly every airport it wishes (out of concern for security)? OK. It seems fair. Now, I wonder how many of you actually embraced the idea of the full body scanner from the TSA? Isn't that for security purposes as well?

So it's OK for Israel to have private screening rooms (but that's not for harassment even though I can bet that many of the people that will land there will be Muslims), but it's not OK for the TSA to have them or to submit people for a patdown or even the full body scanner?

IF, and only if, Israel is willing to pay for the additional screening, then I don't see any reason not to have these measures. However, the final word still rests with Turkey and to ask for additional security methods implies lack of faith in Turkey's security.
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palmjet
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RE: Turkey Says No To Israeli Security

Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:39 pm

I read somewhere that El Al made similar requests when it was proposing to fly to Australia but the Australian authorities, like Turkey, said no way. In particular, they wanted to have their own security staff. In a nutshell, the authorities in Australia said something like - you either accept our security protocols or you don't fly here. Simple.
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Bobloblaw
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RE: Turkey Says No To Israeli Security

Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:43 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 20):
I wonder how many of you actually embraced the idea of the full body scanner from the TSA? Isn't that for security purposes as well?

Israeli security isnt a carcinogen.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 20):
So it's OK for Israel to have private screening rooms (but that's not for harassment even though I can bet that many of the people that will land there will be Muslims), but it's not OK for the TSA to have them or to submit people for a patdown or even the full body scanner?

The big difference is that EL AL profiles, the TSA doesnt. So the TSA bans cupcakes, pats down 7 year olds etc. In fact not a single act of terrorism has been foiled by the TSA. EL AL's profiling program has indeed foiled acts of terrorism including an attempt to bomb Lockerbie style a 747 from LHR is 1986. As for mulism, I doubt many fly EL AL and they arent the ones to be on the look out for. Young anglo women traveling alone are actually one of the biggest threats as they are the ones most easily dumped into carrying a bomb aboard.

What the TSA does is "security theater". What EL AL does is actual security.
 
flaps30
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RE: Turkey Says No To Israeli Security

Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:00 pm

Quoting ju068 (Reply 3):
I do not see why the Turkish tax payers should fund Israeli paranoia.

I would hardly call trying to protect your citizens and your country "paranoia". We all know that Israel's enemies will try to exploit any opening possible to do harm and that opening could easily come from an airport inside Turkey.
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Pellegrine
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RE: Turkey Says No To Israeli Security

Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:02 pm

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 22):
Young anglo women traveling alone are actually one of the biggest threats as they are the ones most easily dumped into carrying a bomb aboard.

According to whom? So they would be advised to avoiding El-Al too?

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 22):
What EL AL does is actual security.

Including all the profiling, discrimination, invasion of privacy, and harassment you can't even imagine.
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JU068
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RE: Turkey Says No To Israeli Security

Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:09 pm

I do not see why the Turks are the bad guys in this story. Arkia doesn't intend on flying daily so why should they bother with all the things they are demanding.
The only way I could see it happen is if they would send their B757-300 every day. There are enough Turkish airlines to take over the route if there is a market.


Quoting flaps30 (Reply 23):
I would hardly call trying to protect your citizens and your country "paranoia". We all know that Israel's enemies will try to exploit any opening possible to do harm and that opening could easily come from an airport inside Turkey.

Yes, it would make sense if Israel was the only country in the world to deal with terrorism. Turkey has dealt with terrorism so I am sure that their airport security is more than fine.

[Edited 2012-03-13 07:40:58 by SA7700]
 
UALWN
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RE: Turkey Says No To Israeli Security

Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:18 pm

Quoting flaps30 (Reply 23):
I would hardly call trying to protect your citizens and your country "paranoia". We all know that Israel's enemies will try to exploit any opening possible to do harm and that opening could easily come from an airport inside Turkey.

Or in a hotel inside Turkey... If the Israelis do not trust the airport security in Antalya's airport, why should they trust the police forces in Antalya? Should they be allowed to bring Israeli police officers to hotels in Turkey where Israeli citizens tend to stay in order to protect them?
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kl911
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RE: Turkey Says No To Israeli Security

Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:25 pm

I cant of understand Arkia, or any other airline for that matter. Turkish security is not what it should be, looking at the numerous bombings in the country and the attacks by muslim extremists hiding easily inside the ( majority) muslim population.

Also, as a flight ffrom a muslim country to Israel I would request even more security guarantees then in for example Amsterdam, where it is already extremely strict.

So, I understand Arkia, but why wont the Turks not allow that, arkia offers to do and pay everything themselves, so they should be happy no?
 
JU068
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RE: Turkey Says No To Israeli Security

Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:32 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 31):

Are you saying that security is bad in cities such as London, Stockholm, Madrid ... just because terrorists bombed a few public places like they did in Turkey?

As far as I remember there was no recent case where a plane took off from a Turkish airport with a bomb. That just goes to prove that the security at Turkish airports is just fine.
 
flaps30
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RE: Turkey Says No To Israeli Security

Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:38 pm

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 24):
Including all the profiling, discrimination, invasion of privacy, and harassment you can't even imagine.

The Israelis do what they have to do in order to protect and survive. So they profile, whats the big deal? At least they dont try to hide the fact. We all know the TSA profiles, but they dont admit it. I personally dont see why profiling is such a big deal to everyone. The only people who make such a stink about it, probably have something to hide. If you are on the straight and narrow, then you have nothing to worry about. Profiling goes on everyday in this country and all over the world. The police in this country are the worst at profiling.
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Semaex
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RE: Turkey Says No To Israeli Security

Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:41 pm

Quoting ju068 (Reply 3):
I do not see why the Turkish tax payers should fund Israeli paranoia.

Paranoia is a point of view. You may say paranoia, and personally I say it too, but facts show that Israeli airliners have a larger "accident" rate than those of other nations. Still, no security screening can give a 0% failure rate, therefore I call the hassle paranoia too. That's my humble opinion.

What I find absolutely rediculous though is what you stated too. That most nations feel somehow obliged to burden their taxpayers because an Israeli airline would like to serve an airport in said nation.
Best example I have is VIE: Everytime single time El Al flies in or out, a police helicopter goes into the air, hovers for a couple of minutes and then lands again. An unbelievable waste of taxpayer money! As if a helicopter could prevent any terrorist action on the plane!

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 14):
I don't think these are unreasonable requests provided Arkia and/or Israel provides the funding.

That's what I say too. If Israel is willing to pay for additional security they should go ahead and pay for additional local security staff. However, the sovereignty of a nation's national security must be respected, and therefore I congratulate Turkey on this blunt move.
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Pellegrine
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RE: Turkey Says No To Israeli Security

Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:47 pm

Quoting flaps30 (Reply 33):
The Israelis do what they have to do in order to protect and survive. So they profile, whats the big deal? At least they dont try to hide the fact. We all know the TSA profiles, but they dont admit it. I personally dont see why profiling is such a big deal to everyone. The only people who make such a stink about it, probably have something to hide. If you are on the straight and narrow, then you have nothing to worry about. Profiling goes on everyday in this country and all over the world. The police in this country are the worst at profiling.

Sometimes a person's opinions reveal more about themselves than they intend to.


I can't personally say much for anyone who dismisses and excuses profiling and racial, color, or origin discrimination anywhere in this world. Just IMO.
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q120
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RE: Turkey Says No To Israeli Security

Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:57 pm

Everyone who is against Arkia or Israel for that matter should understand that Turkey has been very hostile towards Israel in the last couple of years. In past years Turkey would have not rejected these requests.
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TurkishWings
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RE: Turkey Says No To Israeli Security

Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:59 pm

I think the decision of Turkey is more economic than political here. As with any other business, if there is a demand for a certain product/service, the company will only produce those if a profit is to come at the end. In this case, the money that the Israeli tourists will bring do not justify the cost of investment. The flight is not even daily and is seasonal. We are looking at a maximum 600-800 pax per week if that. And let's face it, as a hotelier I can confidently say that the Israeli market is one of the most price sensitive markets in the world. So they will not be bringing a lot of money to the local economy either. So a very smart decision move from Turkey in my opinion.
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fahadmk
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RE: Turkey Says No To Israeli Security

Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:59 pm

Quoting flaps30 (Reply 33):
The Israelis do what they have to do in order to protect and survive. So they profile, whats the big deal? At least they dont try to hide the fact. We all know the TSA profiles, but they dont admit it. I personally dont see why profiling is such a big deal to everyone. The only people who make such a stink about it, probably have something to hide. If you are on the straight and narrow, then you have nothing to worry about. Profiling goes on everyday in this country and all over the world. The police in this country are the worst at profiling.

Have you ever been sent to the side for no reason other than the color of your skin, interrogated for 3 hours, and missed your connection... on a 1 day trip ?

Have you ever had someone come up to you on an aircraft mid flight and grab your laptop bag and ask you what you are going to do to the plane...

I bet not...

I am on the straight and narrow... Born and raised in New Jersey... I have my own company and I file my taxes by the book.... Doing nothing wrong, except for the fact that I have brown skin and I make trips to Middle Eastern countries often... Also, the reason people make a stink about is because its a pain in the rear... and against what this country stands for...

Unless you have
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flaps30
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RE: Turkey Says No To Israeli Security

Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:21 pm

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 35):
Sometimes a person's opinions reveal more about themselves than they intend to.


I can't personally say much for anyone who dismisses and excuses profiling and racial, color, or origin discrimination anywhere in this world. Just IMO.

All I am saying is that this is not the 1950's anymore and Ozzie and Harriet is a long forgotten memory. This is an extremely sick, violent, and twisted world we live in today where certain people want to harm and kill others just because of different beliefs. Lets stop pretending that profiling does not exist. It does for a reason. This country (USA) has become so concerned and worried about being politically correct about every little detail that we have put our security at risk. We are worried more about offending our enemies and appeasing them. Lets not forget about how open our enemies have become about harming us. So I say, every country has to do what is necessary to protect. That includes Israel and all other countries, and that includes profiling. Stop crying about it and realize that it is necessary in todays world.
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TK787
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RE: Turkey Says No To Israeli Security

Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:30 pm

Besides the usual political mumbo jumbo on threads about Israel and Turkey, here are some facts;

-AYT is not a "summer-only" airport. Serving over 25M pax, it serves more people than airports like CPH, VIE, DUS..., more than PMI. In a few more years it might pass the likes of Gatwick in terms of pax numbers. I am sure if it wanted the Turkish FA can accommodate this request.

-At its height there were about 500,000 Israeli tourists visiting Turkey annually, now down to less than 50,000. This might sound like a huge loss, but other Middle Eastern countries picking up the slack. Number of Iranian tourists up to 1.8M yearly. Out of total tourist numbers closing on 30M yearly, Turkey is not going to do anything extra for any Israeli airline, for the amount of business they are bringing at this time.

It might change in the future, as political winds change.
 
gokmengs
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RE: Turkey Says No To Israeli Security

Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:03 pm

I can't believe how certain topics are so explosive on anet, and as I see the direction this thread is going to be locked soon.
Before we jump to politics lets think about what is in place currently Turkish Airports International Terminals. Xray screening at the entrance of the airport, post check-in gate area very extensive security check with sterile waiting lounge pre boarding. I seem to think the security procedures are extensive at Turkish airports, but I also understand an Airline from Israil could require more intense security, yet whatever airport they choose to fly will already place extra screening and effort to those flights anyway. Just like TK787 said it all comes to money at the end, there aren't enough passangers and business between the two countries sadly after the flotilla incident. Turkish authorities believe they can provide the security for the said flights, but the Israeli airline insisting on other pre-cautions. Lets not ridicule one for not allawing it, as well as the other for saying we wont fly if these conitions are met....
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Centre
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RE: Turkey Says No To Israeli Security

Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:04 pm

Quoting ju068 (Thread starter):
- specific security area
- the right to oversee security provisions themselves
- the right to use the security devices themselves in order to ensure safety for their passengers.
- 20 free passes for Israeli security officials which would supervize the 4 to 6 flights per week.
- 3 Israeli security officials permanently on call at Antalya airport.
- Modification of the security procedure by introducing widespread use of x-ray machines.
- additional space in front of check-ins where they can check luggage.
- private rooms where they can question suspicious passengers.

Turkey is a sovereign country, and Turkish airports are no different. Most likely, the Turks see these requests as a Mossad front office, that will require maybe another 100 Turkish security to watch.
Is it worth it for them?
Israel can go and cry somewhere else.
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Semaex
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RE: Turkey Says No To Israeli Security

Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:27 pm

Quoting pnd100 (Reply 37):
India does enforce extreme security creening. I would say that the US, India & Israel are among the top countries but they are also among the top targets for terrorism as well.

Top targets for terrorism? Please explain your answer, because as far as facts are concerned, those three nations are not in the crossfire of ongoing terrorist attacts.
Pakistan is, Afghanistan is. That's the sad truth.
The level of "acts of terrorism" in the nations you mention are on the same as those of Great Britain (Subway-), Russia (Airport-) or Spain (Train-bombing), to mention a few.

If you're talking about the "paranoia of becoming the top targets for terrorism", I whole-heartedly agree with you. But then again, one must ask whether the paranoia itself may be the reason for getting there  
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SA7700
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RE: Turkey Says No To Israeli Security

Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:33 pm

This thread is about airport-and airline security. Please do not hijack this thread into an off-topic political debate about Israel and other countries or it may have to be locked and no further posts will be allowed.

Thank you for your co-operation and understanding.


Rgds

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pnd100
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RE: Turkey Says No To Israeli Security

Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:38 pm

Quoting Semaex (Reply 39):
Top targets for terrorism? Please explain your answer, because as far as facts are concerned, those three nations are not in the crossfire of ongoing terrorist attacts.
Pakistan is, Afghanistan is. That's the sad truth.
The level of "acts of terrorism" in the nations you mention are on the same as those of Great Britain (Subway-), Russia (Airport-) or Spain (Train-bombing), to mention a few.

If you're talking about the "paranoia of becoming the top targets for terrorism", I whole-heartedly agree with you. But then again, one must ask whether the paranoia itself may be the reason for getting there  


Pakistan, Iraq & Afghanistan may have a larger number of incidents but they do not have the international travel traffic that India, Israel & the United States have. The countries I have mentioned are at the top of the list of desired targets for many terrorist organizations. In the case of the US, the 9/11 Attacks I think were the turning point. India & Israel have been on high alert for most of their independent histories. You are right that measuring the level of "target" is subjective & therefore I can concede that the security measures adopted by these nations are based on their perception of threat. Whether or not they are being paranoid is a different issue. I agree with an earlier post that it's Turkey's right to refuse & Israel's right to ask.



[Edited 2012-03-13 08:50:40]
 
flaps30
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RE: Turkey Says No To Israeli Security

Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:14 pm

Quoting fahadmk (Reply 34):
Have you ever been sent to the side for no reason other than the color of your skin, interrogated for 3 hours, and missed your connection... on a 1 day trip ?

Have you ever had someone come up to you on an aircraft mid flight and grab your laptop bag and ask you what you are going to do to the plane...

I bet not...

Unfortunately, this is what it has come down to in todays world. Believe it or not, I wish it were different. I wish we could all travel and experience the world without the prejudice and profiling that occurs. But like I said earlier, it is now necessary today to protect citizens. And by the way, I have been harassed at certain airports in certain parts of the world just because I had an Israeli stamp in my passport. I dealt with it and moved on because I know this exists.
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pnd100
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RE: Turkey Says No To Israeli Security

Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:21 pm

Quoting fahadmk (Reply 34):
Have you ever been sent to the side for no reason other than the color of your skin, interrogated for 3 hours, and missed your connection... on a 1 day trip ?

Have you ever had someone come up to you on an aircraft mid flight and grab your laptop bag and ask you what you are going to do to the plane...

I bet not...

I am on the straight and narrow... Born and raised in New Jersey... I have my own company and I file my taxes by the book.... Doing nothing wrong, except for the fact that I have brown skin and I make trips to Middle Eastern countries often... Also, the reason people make a stink about is because its a pain in the rear... and against what this country stands for...

This is sad to hear & with due respect flaps30 it is not necessary. I understand the desire for security but it needs to be balanced with liberty. fahadmk is right that it is not what the United States stands for. Terrorists do not wear t-shirts saying that they are terrorists. If you need to profile people do so on behaviour, not looks. Do you think the terrorists would not figure out that if darker skinned people are questioned they will start recruiting lighter skinned people? This has happened already.

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin.
 
Quokkas
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RE: Turkey Says No To Israeli Security

Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:49 pm

It would actually appear that the Turkish Government should demand extra security at airports from which they fly.
2006: Turkish Airlines Flight 1476, flying from Tirana to Istanbul, was hijacked in Greek airspace.
January 2011: Turkish Airlines Flight 1754, flying from Oslo to Istanbul, was in Bulgarian airspace.

This isn't to say that Israel does not have valid grounds for concern, but in recent years Israeli aircraft have not been a prime target. In part this is due to elevated security, in part it is due to a change of targets. Oddly enough, Israeli aircraft appear to be at greater risk from migrating birds.

My earlier questions about the layout and available space at AYT went unanswered so I now ask have the Israelis demonstrated an area in which they feel that Turkish security is lacking? Has Israel offered to provide advise on how to improve security, other than saying that they wish to manage it themselves?

I am not averse to Israel having input into security decision making but they can not be allowed to dictate to another country anymore than I would expect Australia to dictate to Indonesia or Malaya, for example. Asking is one thing, demanding is another, but with asking one must always accept that a request may be refused.

If Arkia choose to withdraw, so be it. It would be a shame but given the low level of risk why would Turkey be expected to bend over backwards when Turkey has not demanded special rights at Oslo or Tirana?
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ytz
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RE: Turkey Says No To Israeli Security

Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:50 pm

Quoting flaps30 (Reply 43):
But like I said earlier, it is now necessary today to protect citizens.

So you are arguing that an agency of the US government should actively discriminate against US citizens on the basis of their skin colour?

Why not go whole hog and suggest that Muslim Americans be interred, as was done during World War II? It's not that much of a stretch, if you really believe that discriminating in this fashion will make a difference.

Quoting flaps30 (Reply 43):
And by the way, I have been harassed at certain airports in certain parts of the world just because I had an Israeli stamp in my passport.

No comparison. You are a foreign national carrying the entry stamp of an official state enemy entering a third country. In this case, you are arguing that US citizens/residents should be discriminated against, in the United States, while travelling inside the USA, solely on the basis of their skin colour or religion.

Given that DHS now considered extreme right wing groups to be an active threat, and given that we've seen the harm that people like Tim McVeigh and David Koresh can impose, how would you feel about the TSA profiling white males?
 
cuban8
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RE: Turkey Says No To Israeli Security

Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:31 pm

No matter what the reason might be for rejecting the Arkia request (economical, political or both), I fail to recognize the "big" problem. Arkia has the right to make a request and the Turkish authorities has the right to decline the proposal. It happens all the time everywhere in the world with countries imposing passport requirements, visa requirements, residence permits, working permits (green cards), criminal records, retina scans, fingerprints etc.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 8):
Anyone familiar with AYT? Does the airport have sufficient space to afford one airline extra space for less than daily flights? Politics no doubt plays a role but would a lack of space offer a plausible excuse to deny the request? Is AYT security different to IST where your bags get scanned before you enter the terminal?

I believe AYT airport have sufficient space to accommodate extra security, but the airport actually belongs to the German company FRAport. On the other hand, tourism is still increasing in Antalya with constantly more operators so from an economical point of view, the few extra tourists that Arkia might bring is probably not worth the hassle. The security measures between IST and AYT airport are the same (i.e one check-in entry scan and one boarding entry scan).
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Quokkas
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RE: Turkey Says No To Israeli Security

Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:08 pm

Quoting cuban8 (Reply 49):
I believe AYT airport have sufficient space to accommodate extra security

Thank you for your reply. I have flown from IST but only ever been to Antalya overland and by sea, so was unfamiliar with conditions at the airport.
“Not to laugh, not to cry, not to hate, but understand.” Spinoza

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