airbazar
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BOS Terminal Renovation Funding OK'd

Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:06 pm

Finally, what so many of us have been suggesting for years, is happening.
http://www.boston.com/Boston/busines.../FTlLsG0fCdlaVpY0lrACvI/index.html

Hopefully they'll "improve" the landside connection between terminals C and E too. That corridor is an eyesore and that space could be much better utilized, IMHO. My suggestion would be to move those offices in the first floor of the old D terminal somewhere else and just open up the entire floor to foot traffic, and install some moving walkways.
 
tommy767
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RE: BOS Terminal Renovation Funding OK'd

Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:09 pm

How many gates for UA in B?
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
jcarv
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RE: BOS Terminal Renovation Funding OK'd

Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:54 am

Plan is for 8 gates.
 
ASA
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RE: BOS Terminal Renovation Funding OK'd

Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:27 am

Great news!!!

1. Is B6 taking over the rest of Terminal C? Any insider information?

2. Is UA/CO combined operation moving to B? So A will have just Delta?
 
BOStonsox
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RE: BOS Terminal Renovation Funding OK'd

Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:47 pm

Quoting ASA (Reply 3):
1. Is B6 taking over the rest of Terminal C? Any insider information?

Yes, they are, once CO/UA gets out. That requires both halves of Terminal B to be connected. It should happen in early 2013 IIRC.

Quoting ASA (Reply 3):
2. Is UA/CO combined operation moving to B? So A will have just Delta?

UA/CO is still split between Terminal A and Terminal C. They might go completely into Terminal C for the time being. AS will also be in Terminal A.
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chrisnh
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RE: BOS Terminal Renovation Funding OK'd

Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:39 pm

I'm surprised that the release didn't include renderings and illustrations. It would be good to see a 'before' and 'after' footprint comparison, plus some stylized renderings showing how it will all look.

I'm sure those illustrations will be forthcoming.
 
ScottB
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RE: BOS Terminal Renovation Funding OK'd

Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:48 pm

Quoting airbazar (Thread starter):
Hopefully they'll "improve" the landside connection between terminals C and E too. That corridor is an eyesore and that space could be much better utilized, IMHO. My suggestion would be to move those offices in the first floor of the old D terminal somewhere else and just open up the entire floor to foot traffic, and install some moving walkways.

I'm not sure there's much to be gained from that, to be honest. WN's check-in desks will presumably remain in Terminal E, while B6's will remain in Terminal C. If B6 customers arriving from international flights can re-clear security in Terminal E and reach Terminal C gates via a sterile walkway, there's no need to walk through the dumpy parts of the former Terminal D. Likewise, in the slight chance that WN were to use gates in Terminal C, their customers would be able to use the same walkway -- however, I've noticed them using gates E2A/B & E3A/B in the morning when there's little activity in the rest of Terminal E.

Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 4):
UA/CO is still split between Terminal A and Terminal C. They might go completely into Terminal C for the time being. AS will also be in Terminal A.

Perhaps a good short-term solution would be for VX to take a couple of CO's gates in Terminal A, and for the combined CO/UA to move into the unused AA/MQ & former VX gates; this would allow for a single-terminal operation while the two sides of B are combined.
 
airbazar
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RE: BOS Terminal Renovation Funding OK'd

Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:43 pm

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 5):
I'm surprised that the release didn't include renderings and illustrations. It would be good to see a 'before' and 'after' footprint comparison, plus some stylized renderings showing how it will all look.

Part of this funding is for design work. So if there's no design yet, there are no illustrations  
Another release that I read states that they will have the design completed by the end of this year so we'll probably see that when the second phase of funding, for the actual construction, is OK'd.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 6):
I'm not sure there's much to be gained from that, to be honest.

Well it would make transfering between terminals B and E that much easier and with increased foot traffic they could sell retail space in that area thus bringing Massport more revenue. As it stands right now, that entire area is not generating any revenue. It's dead space. AA/US/UA/CO do a fair share of feeding to BA and LH.
 
tharanga
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RE: BOS Terminal Renovation Funding OK'd

Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:29 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 7):
As it stands right now, that entire area is not generating any revenue. It's dead space.

It's so dead, I feel like I'm someplace I'm not supposed to be, when I wander that way.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 7):
Well it would make transfering between terminals B and E that much easier

Easier, maybe, but nothing is going to make it an easy walk.

Depending on where in B you are, it'll probably still be easier to take the long walkway from A to E. A normal person would just take the bus.
 
airbazar
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RE: BOS Terminal Renovation Funding OK'd

Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:42 am

Quoting tharanga (Reply 8):
Depending on where in B you are, it'll probably still be easier to take the long walkway from A to E. A normal person would just take the bus.

Are you calling me abnormal?  The bus requires waiting outside in the cold and long New England Winters. I don't find the walk to be that long, especially if they were to install moving walkways. People don't like hauling luggage up and down buses. It's much easier to just wheel them to the next terminal. And I've had longer walks at AMS or LHR for example.
At AMS if you're connecting between a regional flight at piers A/B/C and an International fligh at concourses E or F, it's a decent walk. Same thing at LHR if you're walking between terminals 1,2,3, especially if you make the mistake of going via the Tube tunnels  
 
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airportugal310
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RE: BOS Terminal Renovation Funding OK'd

Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:02 am

Quoting airbazar (Reply 9):
The bus requires waiting outside in the cold and long New England Winters. I don't find the walk to be that long, especially if they were to install moving walkways. People don't like hauling luggage up and down buses.

It's a long walk from A to E, no matter how you cut it today. When I worked there, we loved getting assignments that required said walk. It allowed to be gone for a long while...call it being lazy...opportunistic...whatever you want!   Narrow corridors, elevators, stairs (C-B v/v)...

Quoting tharanga (Reply 8):
It's so dead, I feel like I'm someplace I'm not supposed to be, when I wander that way.

Yup..."one does not simply walk into Terminal E..."  
I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
 
UNITED777ORD
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RE: BOS Terminal Renovation Funding OK'd

Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:00 am

Quoting jcarv (Reply 2):
Plan is for 8 gates.

Is 8 gates going to be sufficient for the UA operation in BOS? Will UA have access to the former AE regional jet parking positions? If so, that would be 8 gates and 3 regional jet parking stands.
 
airbazar
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RE: BOS Terminal Renovation Funding OK'd

Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:14 pm

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 10):
It's a long walk from A to E, no matter how you cut it today. When I worked there, we loved getting assignments that required said walk. It allowed to be gone for a long while...call it being lazy...opportunistic...whatever you want! Narrow corridors, elevators, stairs (C-B v/v)...

A to E is an easy straight shot across the parking garage and there are moving walkways all the way. 5 mins if you walk fast, 10 minutes tops if you're a slow walker. B to E is probably the longest walk between terminals at BOS and not a pleasant one either because one has to navigate terminal C.

Quoting tharanga (Reply 8):
It's so dead, I feel like I'm someplace I'm not supposed to be, when I wander that way.

   I know right. The fist time I did it I was thinking to myself: Am I allowed to be here?
 
jcarv
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RE: BOS Terminal Renovation Funding OK'd

Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:24 pm

Quoting United777ORD (Reply 11):

The plans I saw called for 8 jet bridges. It's a total redesign and addition to the current B22-B29 area. All that open ramp area will be gone. It will join Terminal B US side from the shuttle gates and extend NE towards taxiway Alpha.
 
tommy767
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RE: BOS Terminal Renovation Funding OK'd

Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:32 pm

Quoting United777ORD (Reply 11):

It would be on the tighter side but it should be. They have a little over 40 flights a day.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: BOS Terminal Renovation Funding OK'd

Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:59 pm

UA/CO will likely shrink in BOS going forward. They won't shrink by much, but they won't grow at all.

What the combined carrier needs is sufficient gate space for their current combined operation AND they need to be able to support the 757s that UA likes to bring in.

Realistically, over the next decade, the entire BOS operation will be 737/320/Dash/RJ/E Jets to the hubs. 8 gates should be more than enough.
 
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ramprat74
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RE: BOS Terminal Renovation Funding OK'd

Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:47 pm

I will use my Art 101 here. Will the add-on to the American side look like this?

 
tommy767
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RE: BOS Terminal Renovation Funding OK'd

Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:48 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 15):

I doubt that considering:

--EWR will see 757s starting next month.
--CLE will see A320s
--IAD gets mainline
--SFO is a combination of 757, 737, and Airbii
--LAX is still 2x a day on 757s.
--ORD sees a fair mix (just like any other east coast to ORD destination.)

So while they may not grow, BOS still sees a fair amount of UA 757s and will continue to.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
ScottB
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RE: BOS Terminal Renovation Funding OK'd

Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:37 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 9):
The bus requires waiting outside in the cold and long New England Winters. I don't find the walk to be that long, especially if they were to install moving walkways.

Going between Terminals C & E on the landside still requires walking outside "in the cold and long New England Winters." Going from B to E via Terminal A is the same distance and all indoors.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 7):
it would make transfering between terminals B and E that much easier and with increased foot traffic they could sell retail space in that area thus bringing Massport more revenue.

The amount of foot traffic between B & E isn't anywhere near enough to justify anyone putting in retail. The revenue just wouldn't be there.

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 17):
So while they may not grow, BOS still sees a fair amount of UA 757s and will continue to.

The 757's aren't going to stay over the long term. The PMUA fleet averages over 20 years in age, and the 739ER's are the obvious long-term replacement, with virtually the same number of seats and lower block-hour costs. By the end of the decade, BOS will see few, if any UA 757's.
 
MAV88
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RE: BOS Terminal Renovation Funding OK'd

Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:45 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 15):
UA/CO will likely shrink in BOS going forward. They won't shrink by much, but they won't grow at all.

What the combined carrier needs is sufficient gate space for their current combined operation AND they need to be able to support the 757s that UA likes to bring in.

Realistically, over the next decade, the entire BOS operation will be 737/320/Dash/RJ/E Jets to the hubs. 8 gates should be more than enough.

BOS sees a large amount of UA 757s on DEN, SFO, LAX and to a lesser extent ORD and IAD. Why would they also shrink BOS? 8 gates should be enough to run the operation.

They only fly to:

EWR
CLE
IAH
SFO
LAX
DEN
ORD
IAD
 
UNITED777ORD
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RE: BOS Terminal Renovation Funding OK'd

Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:29 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 15):
UA/CO will likely shrink in BOS going forward. They won't shrink by much, but they won't grow at all.

What the combined carrier needs is sufficient gate space for their current combined operation AND they need to be able to support the 757s that UA likes to bring in.

Realistically, over the next decade, the entire BOS operation will be 737/320/Dash/RJ/E Jets to the hubs. 8 gates should be more than enough.

I disagree because United currently has split operations in Terminal A (4 gates) and C (11 gates) and they utilize a total of 15 gates. 15 gates to 8 gates is a significant reduction of gate space. Is it possible that US will allow UA to purchase a couple of the current B finger gates to UA. I don't see the need for US to have 20+gates at BOS.
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: BOS Terminal Renovation Funding OK'd

Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:00 pm

"
--EWR will see 757s starting next month.
--CLE will see A320s
--IAD gets mainline
--SFO is a combination of 757, 737, and Airbii
--LAX is still 2x a day on 757s.
--ORD sees a fair mix (just like any other east coast to ORD destination.)

So while they may not grow, BOS still sees a fair amount of UA 757s and will continue to."


And over the next decade those old 757s will be gone and they will be replaced by 737s and 320s. Enjoy them while you have them.

"I disagree because United currently has split operations in Terminal A (4 gates) and C (11 gates) and they utilize a total of 15 gates."

Yes, and you can go bowling in the UA gate areas...they are empty most of the day.

If you happen to be in Terminal C, walk from UA to B6 or B6 to UA...the difference is stark. The B6 side of the terminal is bright, clean, modern, and bustling.

Walk to the UA side and it's dingy, old and very underutilized.

The whole UA/CO operation would have fit nicely in UAs current gates...but those gates are spoken for.
 
airbazar
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RE: BOS Terminal Renovation Funding OK'd

Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:49 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 21):
Yes, and you can go bowling in the UA gate areas...they are empty most of the day.

But jam packed in the evenings. Are you suggesting they move the evening departures to mid day departures? Not gonna happen.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 21):
If you happen to be in Terminal C, walk from UA to B6 or B6 to UA...the difference is stark. The B6 side of the terminal is bright, clean, modern, and bustling.

They're bustling because BOS is a "hub" for B6 and a mere spoke for UA. That's the nature of the business. But it doesn't lessen the fact that UA needs those gates betweek 5pm and 7pm.

Are there any common use gates at terminal B? Maybe that would be the solution. Perhaps sharing with US is an alternative too.
 
ScottB
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RE: BOS Terminal Renovation Funding OK'd

Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:45 am

Quoting airbazar (Reply 22):
Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 21):
Yes, and you can go bowling in the UA gate areas...they are empty most of the day.

But jam packed in the evenings.

I don't think I'd call 9 departures after 3 PM from 8 or 9 gates in Terminal C "jam packed in the evenings" -- and one of those is on an ERJ. UA could easily operate its evening schedule to ORD/DEN/LAX/SFO/IAD out of 4 or 5 gates. There's really only one "busy" period during the afternoon in the UA pier of C when they have departures to all 5 PMUA hubs within about 90 minutes, between 1630 and 1800.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 22):
Are there any common use gates at terminal B? Maybe that would be the solution.Perhaps sharing with US is an alternative too.

The VX gates might be or might have been common-use along with the AC gates -- but both the VX & AC gates are unconnected to the other secure areas of Terminal B. The former MQ gates also saw lots of carriers with small BOS presences over the years -- CO was there in the late 1980's before moving into Terminal A with Eastern.

I would assume that part of the plan would include UA sharing one or two of the US gates; with the US presence having dwindled so much over the past 15 years, the US side of Terminal B is severely underused and that will become worse with the Colgan flying ending. Also, I can't see how the BOS-LGA leg of the US Shuttle can survive the end of the US focus operation at LGA.

Of course, if AA & US were to merge, AA could simply move into the US gates and UA could take over the AA gates...
 
airbazar
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RE: BOS Terminal Renovation Funding OK'd

Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:03 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 23):
I don't think I'd call 9 departures after 3 PM from 8 or 9 gates in Terminal C "jam packed in the evenings" -- and one of those is on an ERJ.

The issue is not so much the space in the terminal as much as the occupied gates. ERJ's still need gates.
But I just flew out last Monday on the 6pm departurre to DEN and the entire terminal was like a sardine can.
 
tommy767
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RE: BOS Terminal Renovation Funding OK'd

Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:21 pm

Quoting MAV88 (Reply 19):
BOS sees a large amount of UA 757s on DEN, SFO, LAX and to a lesser extent ORD and IAD. Why would they also shrink BOS? 8 gates should be enough to run the operation.

They have zero proof. Believe it or not, A.netters are sometimes huffing crack  
Quoting ScottB (Reply 18):
The 757's aren't going to stay over the long term. The PMUA fleet averages over 20 years in age, and the 739ER's are the obvious long-term replacement, with virtually the same number of seats and lower block-hour costs. By the end of the decade, BOS will see few, if any UA 757's.

Funny you say that considering United at Logan in terms of 757 action will be:

IAH, EWR, and IAD will each get a 757.
DEN will get 2
ORD will get 5
SFO will get 3
LAX will get 2

That means that BOS will see 15 UA 757s a day to all hub cities. That's actually pretty impressive. I don't think many non hub stations compare to that except for maybe LAS and SEA. And also considering IAH and EWR will start to get PMUA 757s, i think it's safe to say that they are shifting 757s to these routes for a reason (to make money maybe?)

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 21):
And over the next decade those old 757s will be gone and they will be replaced by 737s and 320s. Enjoy them while you have them.

Sorry guys I'm not believing it at the moment. We all know the 739ER isn't going to replace the 757s overnight. Only 5 will be retired this year. The priority at the moment is the 735s which will be leaving the fleet rather quickly. When you break down age, PMUA's 757s are only slightly older than PMCO's. So *enjoy* flying on the PMCO 735s while you still can (but I'm not sure if that is even possible.)
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
apodino
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RE: BOS Terminal Renovation Funding OK'd

Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:44 pm

Well, we all knew this was happening, it was just a matter of time before the announcement was made. The one thing I think will happen short term is that UA and CO will remain segregated until this happens. Massport signage indicates that CLE, IAH, and EWR flights are out of A, and the rest of the departures are out of C. For passengers who are connecting who don't pay attention to where they connect, this could be an issue, but it is a short term issue. There are some things I wonder about with this though.

1. Can this expansion in B be built on the current footprint without affecting Taxiway A? That is already pretty close to the existing gates as it is.

2. With C and E being linked airside now, would Massport move WN's check in desks to C without moving their gates? I don't see this as likely, but there will be a lot of unused ticketing space in C after UA is moved.

3. What happens to the gates in A that UA will give up? I don't see a DL build up in A, and then you run into the same problem Massport had after it was built? I don't see AC moving to A because Terminal B in essence becomes a Star Alliance facility with this. The only way I see VX moving out of B is because of TSA staffing issues (VX's gate has its own checkpoint, so there is a dedicated TSA checkpoint just for one VX gate.) The other possibility could be either an F9 or NK move to A, or if PeoplExpress needs gate space on their launch, that could be an option.

4. Also with C and E being linked, would B6 be willing to launch some departures from E after some of their flights clear customs so they don't have to reposition the airplane? I don't see this as likely, but it is possible.
 
airbazar
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RE: BOS Terminal Renovation Funding OK'd

Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:34 pm

You bring up a lot of very interesting points  
Quoting apodino (Reply 26):
For passengers who are connecting who don't pay attention to where they connect, this could be an issue, but it is a short term issue. There are some things I wonder about with this though.

It's an issue now but luckily I don't think UA/CO are connecting many people thru BOS. They could easily solve that with "revenue management", say by making a connection thru BOS that requires a change of terminals, a little too expensive   Another alternative would be to run an airside shuttle between A and B just like DCA for US or ORD for UA, but I suspect the volume it so miniscule that even that wouldn't be justifiable.

Quoting apodino (Reply 26):
1. Can this expansion in B be built on the current footprint without affecting Taxiway A? That is already pretty close to the existing gates as it is.

At first look, that seems possible:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Dan Vincent - New England Airports

Quoting apodino (Reply 26):
2. With C and E being linked airside now, would Massport move WN's check in desks to C without moving their gates? I don't see this as likely, but there will be a lot of unused ticketing space in C after UA is moved.

Good call but the terminal E checkin area isn't exactly crowded. I think WN likes it there   The terminal is completely empty most of the day and it allows for a shorter walk to the gates.
What will they do with the unused ticketing space? More concessions?

Quoting apodino (Reply 26):
4. Also with C and E being linked, would B6 be willing to launch some departures from E after some of their flights clear customs so they don't have to reposition the airplane? I don't see this as likely, but it is possible.

That would depend on time of day. There are plenty of gates during the day but in the evening they're a commodity in short supply. Here's an idea: Offer some flights from terminal E with good connection times from the arriving JL flight from NRT   
 
apodino
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RE: BOS Terminal Renovation Funding OK'd

Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:01 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 27):

It's an issue now but luckily I don't think UA/CO are connecting many people thru BOS. They could easily solve that with "revenue management", say by making a connection thru BOS that requires a change of terminals, a little too expensive Another alternative would be to run an airside shuttle between A and B just like DCA for US or ORD for UA, but I suspect the volume it so miniscule that even that wouldn't be justifiable.

That is not what I meant. What I was referring to was pax starting their trip in BOS and going somewhere that requires a connection. For example say a Passenger was flying from BOS-SAN. They could potentially be connecting in DEN, IAH, or ORD (a few other places as well, but those three make the most sense out of BOS). If a passenger isn't paying attention, he could end up in the wrong terminal because IAH flights operate from A and DEN and ORD are out of C. I do agree that very few UA pax connect in BOS unless its to either an LH flight, or one of the EAS places, but in those cases that would be a terminal change anyways so that's irrelevant.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 27):

That would depend on time of day. There are plenty of gates during the day but in the evening they're a commodity in short supply. Here's an idea: Offer some flights from terminal E with good connection times from the arriving JL flight from NRT

That is a very good point too. One solution would be for a Terminal C FIS, but I don't see that happening any time soon.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 27):

Good call but the terminal E checkin area isn't exactly crowded. I think WN likes it there The terminal is completely empty most of the day and it allows for a shorter walk to the gates.
What will they do with the unused ticketing space? More concessions?

I do agree with that. My thing is trying to figure out what to do with all the ticket counter space in C. I believe Sun Country is using some of it at the moment. But that still leaves a lot of unused ticketing space in A and C. A will have a couple of vacant gates, so that won't be a problem. The problem is with B6 getting all the gates in C, there is no possible way to use the ticket counter space that's left over. Would B6 have a use for all that leftover space?
 
airbazar
Topic Author
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RE: BOS Terminal Renovation Funding OK'd

Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:14 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 28):
That is a very good point too. One solution would be for a Terminal C FIS, but I don't see that happening any time soon.

Never gonna happen. B6 doesn't even have FIS at their brand new home terminal at JFK.
It would be cheaper and more cost effective to modify a couple of the gates in C that are closest to E, to allow for segregated arrivals and channel those people to immigration at terminal E via a closed off corridor. But even that I don't see a need for given B6's international operations at BOS.
If a new FIS facility were to be built, it would make more sense to build it in either terminal A or B.

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