DTWPurserBoy
Topic Author
Posts: 2361
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:33 pm

Plans For AirTran's 717's?

Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:04 pm

Not sure if this question has been posted yet but does anyone know what Southwest plans to do with the 717's it inherited from AirTran? Moderators, if this is a duplicate post please feel free to delete it.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
cmb320
Posts: 371
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2000 1:24 pm

RE: Plans For AirTran's 717's?

Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:11 pm

They're gonna hang onto them until Delta starts buying them.
 
MountainFlyer
Posts: 486
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 10:19 am

RE: Plans For AirTran's 717's?

Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:14 pm

The leases start to expire in 2017, but I believe WN wants to offload them sooner, maybe in the 2015 time frame.

WN's CEO is quoted in this article saying the 717 is a "good airplane" but that "Southwest does not want to operate (them) for the next 20 years."

Also, here are a couple threads about them:

Current Status of 717 With WN?

and

Will WN paint its 717's?



[Edited 2012-03-14 14:25:02]
SA-227; B1900; Q200; Q400; CRJ-2,7,9; 717; 727-2; 737-3,4,5,7,8,9; 747-2; 757-2,3; 767-3,4; MD-90; A319, 320; DC-9; DC-1
 
dtw9
Posts: 898
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2003 10:09 am

RE: Plans For AirTran's 717's?

Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:22 pm

Quoting MountainFlyer (Reply 2):
but I believe WN wants to offload them sooner, maybe in the 2015 time frame

Sooner then that. If they can't offload them Wn said they'll start parking them and continue to pay the leases until they expire. My bet is on Delta. Also, it seems odd that the Turkmenistan 717's were parked, but they're not showing up for sale or lease anywhere.
 
User avatar
zippyjet
Posts: 5091
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2001 3:32 pm

RE: Plans For AirTran's 717's?

Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:22 pm

From inside the company grapevine they will wear WN livery. Otherwise, I understand Pimp My Ride is going to feature a tricked out/pimped out 717.   
I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
 
Atlwest1
Posts: 148
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 3:11 am

RE: Plans For AirTran's 717's?

Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:34 pm

Yes you all will see a 717 in WN livery there is a conversion schedule tentatively. The priority though is the 737's. The first 737 is in conversion in Seattle for the next 30ish days or so. I think the 717 will be relatively easier then the 737s.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co. or Airt
 
NASCARAirforce
Posts: 2452
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 7:27 am

RE: Plans For AirTran's 717's?

Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:58 am

They should just paint the rest of them in various sports team colors
 
User avatar
RWA380
Posts: 4526
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 10:51 am

RE: Plans For AirTran's 717's?

Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:36 am

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 3):
Sooner then that. If they can't offload them Wn said they'll start parking them and continue to pay the leases until they expire.

Aren't there going to be all 717 stations with WN? Aren't they being kept because a couple of WN stations don't warrant a 737?
707, 717, 720, 727-1/2, 737-1/2/3/4/5/7/8/9, 747-1/2/3/4, 757, 767-2/3/4, 777, DC-8-5/6/7, DC-9-1/3/5, MD-80/2/3/7/8, DC-10-10/30/40, MD-11, F-27, F-28, SWM, J31, D38, DH7, DH8, DH4 SD-330, B-146, L-1011-2/500, ATR-42/72, VCV, A-300/310/318/319/320, CR2/7
 
AAIL86
Posts: 426
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:00 am

RE: Plans For AirTran's 717's?

Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:16 pm

Methinks AA is looking for an affordable 115 seat aircraft on a (bankruptcy) budget...   
The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason - Benjamim Franklin
 
bjorn14
Posts: 3553
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:11 pm

RE: Plans For AirTran's 717's?

Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:34 pm

I know a country in SE Europe that might be able to use about 25 of them.   
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
MCOflyer
Posts: 7071
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:51 am

RE: Plans For AirTran's 717's?

Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:46 pm

I would smaller airlines might be looking at these planes. For example, Bahamasair is slated to get two former AR 735's. They could get five-seven 717's. HA already operates them in this environment. In addition, I have a hunch HA will pick up the low cycle/low hour a/c. Finally, I think new start up may want these a/c as they are fuel efficient.

Regarding DL and AA. DL could obtain more 73G's for fleet commonality rather than invest in a new fleet type. AA has already operated the type when they took over TWA's a/c. I doubt the bank would approve a new sub type though the clause in the seat category may force them to think otherwise.

KH
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
bjorn14
Posts: 3553
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:11 pm

RE: Plans For AirTran's 717's?

Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:01 pm

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 10):
I would smaller airlines might be looking at these planes.

This might be true but I keep thinking about the 20 that Boeing is still sitting on from the MX bankruptcy. Let alone 86.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
LOWS
Posts: 1198
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:37 am

RE: Plans For AirTran's 717's?

Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:05 pm

Quoting AAIL86 (Reply 8):
I know a country in SE Europe that might be able to use about 25 of them.   

As a F70+F100 Replacement...?
 
dtw9
Posts: 898
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2003 10:09 am

RE: Plans For AirTran's 717's?

Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:14 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 11):
This might be true but I keep thinking about the 20 that Boeing is still sitting on from the MX bankruptcy. Let alone 86.

Boeing's not sitting on any 717's. The MX ones are spoken for. And Airtran has 88, not 86, 717's
 
User avatar
Hypoxik
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:57 pm

RE: Plans For AirTran's 717's?

Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:32 pm

Delta is already deciding which mx station will do the conversions.
California Native. KIWA, PHOG, KEWR, KIAH, KLAX, KIAH, KEWR, KORD, KIAD, KORD, KSFO, KLAX
 
gizmonc
Posts: 243
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:51 pm

RE: Plans For AirTran's 717's?

Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:40 pm

I have heard rumors that their might be a swap between WN and DL. WN needs some 737 gates in ATL. WN wants to get rid of some 717 and DL wants a DC-9 replacement. Also DL has some 737-700 and 800's that might go in the deal. All kinds of deals pop up all the time.
 
Av8rDAL
Posts: 356
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 1:41 am

RE: Plans For AirTran's 717's?

Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:53 pm

I would have to bet DL is definitely interested in them.

They could easily fill the holes left by the 20 or so D95s still in the fleet and also cull the oldest MD88s.

They could also create a "right-sized" fleet of the 717/MD88/MD90 and deploy these aircraft wherever it makes the most sense. If you can fill a 717 that you got for peanuts and burn much less gas than the Diesel 9 or -88, then it would make sense to do that over using an MD88 that you can only fill if you give seats away.

Pardon my simplistic analysis - I have no idea of the operating costs of the 717 compared to the MD88 or DC-9, but the general attraction is that this whole make/model series is generally cheap to acquire on the used market and own.
Maintain thine airspeed, lest the Earth rise up and smite thee.
 
User avatar
OzarkD9S
Posts: 4788
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2001 2:31 am

RE: Plans For AirTran's 717's?

Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:21 pm

I love all this speculation, and yes they wont be flying for WN 20 years from now but...it's a good little airplane and WN might just run them till the leases end or their natural economic lifespan ends. It's an oddball fleet but we're not talking 10-15 frames here. Heck they might even find a solid niche at WN for 5-10 years.

As WN "replaces" FL flying, the 717's might be the last to change over, and so far this is strange merger process compared to normal integrations. It doesn't seem that FL will become WN on a particular day, just a gradual absorption of FL by WN.

I wonder how much $$$ is slipping away without a codeshare in place?
Next up: STL-CVG-MKE-MSP-STL.
 
MountainFlyer
Posts: 486
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 10:19 am

RE: Plans For AirTran's 717's?

Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:32 pm

Quoting cmb320 (Reply 1):
They're gonna hang onto them until Delta starts buying them.
Quoting dtw9 (Reply 3):
My bet is on Delta.
Quoting Hypoxik (Reply 14):
Delta is already deciding which mx station will do the conversions.
Quoting Av8rDAL (Reply 16):
I would have to bet DL is definitely interested in them.

Please pardon my ignorance, but is DL picking up these birds something that has some backing to it, or is it purely speculation on these boards?

Quoting gizmonc (Reply 15):
Also DL has some 737-700 and 800's that might go in the deal. All kinds of deals pop up all the time.

Why would DL get rid of 737s in favor of 717s? That seems a bit odd to me.
SA-227; B1900; Q200; Q400; CRJ-2,7,9; 717; 727-2; 737-3,4,5,7,8,9; 747-2; 757-2,3; 767-3,4; MD-90; A319, 320; DC-9; DC-1
 
timf
Posts: 438
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2003 8:36 am

RE: Plans For AirTran's 717's?

Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:30 pm

The 737-700s are a small fleet that serve a niche for Delta that 717s won't fill, so I don't see them going anywhere. I could see possibly a few 737-800s being traded with the MD90s and future -900s able to backfill those, but I'm still not holding my breath for Delta to pick up any used 717s.
 
User avatar
seabosdca
Posts: 5054
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:33 am

RE: Plans For AirTran's 717's?

Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:33 pm

Quoting Hypoxik (Reply 14):
Delta is already deciding which mx station will do the conversions.

I don't buy it.

Quoting gizmonc (Reply 15):
Also DL has some 737-700 and 800's that might go in the deal.

DL's 737-700 fleet is brand-new and was purchased to fly specialized missions. Their -800 fleet is the mainstay of their long U.S. flights, and will be common with the 100 -900ERs being delivered in the next few years. Trading those planes for decade-old 717s would be absurd.
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: Plans For AirTran's 717's?

Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:42 pm

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 3):
Also, it seems odd that the Turkmenistan 717's were parked, but they're not showing up for sale or lease anywhere.

Isn't Boeing going to take those back?

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 13):
And Airtran has 88, not 86, 717's

How many are owned by FL as of today?

Quoting MountainFlyer (Reply 18):
is DL picking up these birds something that has some backing to it, or is it purely speculation on these boards?

Speculation, methinks. This is probably gonna be like the "When is NW going to retire the D9's" type thing..... Then turn into a "When is DL going to retire the 717?"
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
BMI727
Posts: 11172
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: Plans For AirTran's 717's?

Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:46 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Thread starter):
Plans For AirTran's 717's?  

If you have one I'm sure Boeing would love to hear it.

Quoting AAIL86 (Reply 8):
Methinks AA is looking for an affordable 115 seat aircraft on a (bankruptcy) budget...

Now that their costs are likely to come down more in line with others that might be a better option, especially if their scope remains as restrictive as it is. They wanted to keep the TWA 717s, but Boeing wouldn't renegotiate the leases, but I doubt they will take them now.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
steeler83
Posts: 7391
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:06 pm

RE: Plans For AirTran's 717's?

Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:42 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 20):
DL's 737-700 fleet is brand-new and was purchased to fly specialized missions. Their -800 fleet is the mainstay of their long U.S. flights, and will be common with the 100 -900ERs being delivered in the next few years. Trading those planes for decade-old 717s would be absurd.

I do agree. The only thing I could see DL using these birds for is a DC9 replacement. Even with that, does DL even want/need a DC9 replacement? Do they really need something in the 100 to 120-seat range? They've already dumped their '30s inherited from NW, didn't they? I think if they would have wanted a direct equip-for-equip swap, it would have happened already...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
dtw9
Posts: 898
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2003 10:09 am

RE: Plans For AirTran's 717's?

Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:05 am

Quoting steeler83 (Reply 23):
I do agree. The only thing I could see DL using these birds for is a DC9 replacement. Even with that, does DL even want/need a DC9 replacement? Do they really need something in the 100 to 120-seat range? They've already dumped their '30s inherited from NW, didn't they? I think if they would have wanted a direct equip-for-equip swap, it would have happened already...

Ed recently stated this week that Delta and it's passengers don't like 50 seaters. For this reason Delta is upgaging 50 seat routes to 70-76 seaters and giving 17 DC-9-50's a year long reprieve to help cover the 76 seat routes. Ed was also asked this week about the WN 717's and replied that all options are still on the table and basically would not comment on Delta's plans.
 
B757Forever
Posts: 676
Joined: Tue May 04, 2010 3:23 am

RE: Plans For AirTran's 717's?

Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:18 am

Delta is very interested in the 717 but has concerns about the BMW Rolls Royce engines. They are indeed fuel efficient but lack the longevity / on-wing life of similar engines making them the weakest part of this excellent aircraft. The airframe and avionics on the 717 is rock solid. An aircraft of this size would fit well in the fleet and do exactly what others here have mentioned, replace the DC9s and allow for upgauging from 70 and 90 seaters. Delta is very much a bargain hunter and always looking for cheap lift, hence the growth in the MD90 fleet. Don't be surprised if a Delta 717 announcement is made later this year.
The Rolls Royce Dart. Noise = Shaft Horsepower.
 
WROORD
Posts: 676
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2009 5:36 pm

RE: Plans For AirTran's 717's?

Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:26 am

I thought that the new Spanish all 717 airline Volotea was getting them?
 
User avatar
usdcaguy
Posts: 1059
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2004 12:41 pm

RE: Plans For AirTran's 717's?

Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:31 am

I don't get why DL is always buying used planes. I suppose it makes financial sense (the only valid reason to buy a plane if you're a business), but it's not sexy. Just thought I'd put that out there.
 
delta2ual
Posts: 558
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:18 pm

RE: Plans For AirTran's 717's?

Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:40 am

Quoting gizmonc (Reply 15):
I have heard rumors that their might be a swap between WN and DL. WN needs some 737 gates in ATL. WN wants to get rid of some 717 and DL wants a DC-9 replacement. Also DL has some 737-700 and 800's that might go in the deal. All kinds of deals pop up all the time.

I guess anything is possible, but I would be very surprised if DL gave WN more gates in ATL AND newer 700's and 800's.
From the world's largest airline-to the world's largest airline. Delta2ual
 
PHX787
Posts: 7881
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:46 pm

RE: Plans For AirTran's 717's?

Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:54 am

Quoting Av8rDAL (Reply 16):
I would have to bet DL is definitely interested in them.
Quoting B757forever (Reply 25):
Delta is very interested in the 717

This is the first time I'm hearing about DL being a potential buyer of the 717s....anybody got any outside articles on this?
Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
 
User avatar
zippyjet
Posts: 5091
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2001 3:32 pm

RE: Plans For AirTran's 717's?

Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:27 am

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 17):
As WN "replaces" FL flying, the 717's might be the last to change over, and so far this is strange merger process compared to normal integrations. It doesn't seem that FL will become WN on a particular day, just a gradual absorption of FL by WN.

I wonder how much $$$ is slipping away without a codeshare in place?

This process revolves around computer program interfacing, seniority/years negotiations and issues with International flights. This is the reason for what seems to many a protracted process.
I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: Plans For AirTran's 717's?

Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:25 am

Quoting B757forever (Reply 25):
Delta is very interested in the 717 but has concerns about the BMW Rolls Royce engines.

This is the first I have heard of this. Source?
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
bjorn14
Posts: 3553
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:11 pm

RE: Plans For AirTran's 717's?

Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:56 am

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 13):
Boeing's not sitting on any 717's.
Quoting WROORD (Reply 26):
I thought that the new Spanish all 717 airline Volotea was getting them?

At this point I know that Volotea only had taken a couple of them, maybe they do have a deal for all of them I don't know.

Quoting LOWS (Reply 12):
As a F70+F100 Replacement...?

As a whole airline replacement.   
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
DTWPurserBoy
Topic Author
Posts: 2361
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:33 pm

RE: Plans For AirTran's 717's?

Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:46 pm

I am surprised that no one has mentioned the lack of cockpit commonality of the 717. The 737-700 and -800 are the same and the pilots are dual qualified on the 757 and 767. Adding another airplane type would be expensive--simulators are not cheap and the reshuffling of pilots trying to bid on (or away) from the 717 would cause a huge domino effect on the training department. But you never know what DL is going to do until they do it. They can keep secrets better than the CIA! Acquiring an instant common fleet of 88 aircraft would be tempting to be sure. DL loves the 737--it is a reliable machine and with the -900ER's on order I can't see them trading any away. ATL gates are at a premium and I would think that WN would have acquired all of Air Trans gates as part of the transaction unless the aiport retains sole control of gate leases.

I have wondered if they would switch that -900 order for the MAX version. They delayed the 787 until 2020! Nothing like letting other airlines work the kinks out and getting a mature airplane.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
aztrainer
Posts: 713
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:17 pm

RE: Plans For AirTran's 717's?

Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:04 pm

OK, this is just conjecture on my part.

Knowing WN and their desire to fly to Hawai'i, could they keep the 717 and then use them for interisland hops and give HA competition?

We know that the 717 works on the short haul hops in the islands and it would allow WN passengers to stay on the same airlines while in Hawai'i. They also could simply fly into OGG, KOA, HNL, and LIH with the 800's and then farm out the transfers with the 717.
 
diverdave
Posts: 486
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 1:00 am

RE: Plans For AirTran's 717's?

Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:35 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 33):
Adding another airplane type would be expensive--simulators are not cheap and the reshuffling of pilots trying to bid on (or away) from the 717 would cause a huge domino effect on the training department.

SImulators are not cheap, but I can't imagine that the market for second hand 717 simulators is that large and in any case simulators cost much less than actual aircraft.  

David
 
MountainFlyer
Posts: 486
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 10:19 am

RE: Plans For AirTran's 717's?

Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:45 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 33):
I am surprised that no one has mentioned the lack of cockpit commonality of the 717.

Just curious; how does the MD-90 cockpit compare to the 717?
SA-227; B1900; Q200; Q400; CRJ-2,7,9; 717; 727-2; 737-3,4,5,7,8,9; 747-2; 757-2,3; 767-3,4; MD-90; A319, 320; DC-9; DC-1
 
TSS
Posts: 2498
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:52 pm

RE: Plans For AirTran's 717's?

Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:59 pm

Quoting MountainFlyer (Reply 36):
Just curious; how does the MD-90 cockpit compare to the 717?

The 717 cockpit is basically the same as the one used in the Saudia MD-90s except that the displays are LCD instead of CRT. DL, and as far as I know all other, MD-90s use a cockpit similar to MD-88s.
Able to kill active threads stone dead with a single post!
 
BAC111
Posts: 63
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 3:13 am

RE: Plans For AirTran's 717's?

Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:04 pm

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 13):
Boeing's not sitting on any 717's. The MX ones are spoken for. And Airtran has 88, not 86, 717's

I was unaware of this. Who has spoken for them? Where are the frames at this time?
 
dtw9
Posts: 898
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2003 10:09 am

RE: Plans For AirTran's 717's?

Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:56 pm

Quoting BAC111 (Reply 38):
I was unaware of this. Who has spoken for them? Where are the frames at this time?

3 went to Hawaiian, 2 to Qantas Link and speculation is, 20 to Volotea
 
bobnwa
Posts: 4485
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 12:10 am

RE: Plans For AirTran's 717's?

Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:50 pm

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 27):
I don't get why DL is always buying used planes. I suppose it makes financial sense (the only valid reason to buy a plane if you're a business), but it's not sexy. Just thought I'd put that out there.

I guess you could call Pan AM,Braniff,Eastern etc sexy airlines,but it didn't do them much good did it?
 
ouboy79
Posts: 4114
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 1:48 pm

RE: Plans For AirTran's 717's?

Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:43 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 29):
This is the first time I'm hearing about DL being a potential buyer of the 717s....anybody got any outside articles on this?

You won't find any. Plans are being made at WN to transition the 717 fleet from the FL fleet. They'll probably find a good use for them for the next 3-6 years when they begin returning them.
 
B757Forever
Posts: 676
Joined: Tue May 04, 2010 3:23 am

RE: Plans For AirTran's 717's?

Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:48 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 31):
This is the first I have heard of this. Source?

Internal analysis. Those are not made public.   
The Rolls Royce Dart. Noise = Shaft Horsepower.
 
PHX787
Posts: 7881
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:46 pm

RE: Plans For AirTran's 717's?

Sat Mar 17, 2012 12:16 am

Quoting TSS (Reply 37):
DL, and as far as I know all other, MD-90s use a cockpit similar to MD-88s.

IIRC, DL's pilots for the MD90 and MD88 are certified under the same type, correct me if I'm wrong

[Edited 2012-03-16 17:17:49]
Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
 
Yflyer
Posts: 1247
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 4:05 am

RE: Plans For AirTran's 717's?

Sat Mar 17, 2012 12:53 am

So here's something I've been wondering...

If the rumor turns out to be true and Delta does buy the AirTran 717s, the MD-88/90 pilots couldn't fly them because of the different cockpit, correct? But the Saudi MD-90s have a similar cockpit to the 717. So, could a 717 pilot also fly them? If so, if Delta bought 717s would it be feasible for them to also buy the Saudi MD-90s and have one MD-88/90 pilot group and one 717/(ex-Saudia) MD-90 pilot group?
 
TrijetsRMissed
Posts: 1981
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:15 pm

RE: Plans For AirTran's 717's?

Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:40 am

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 33):
I am surprised that no one has mentioned the lack of cockpit commonality of the 717.

There are upgrade packages available for both the MD-88 and MD-90, which would streamline training and provide commonality across the board for all three types. Additionally, the 717 acquisition would open the door for the SV MD-90s.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 29):
This is the first time I'm hearing about DL being a potential buyer of the 717s....anybody got any outside articles on this?

I'm pretty sure I was the first to start this rumor some 2-3 years ago on a.net.   I'll need to check the history to see if anyone has me beat, but I've posted quite a bit on this before.

Regarding articles or knowledge, it's esoteric; nothing official. The initial RFI was done shortly after the MD-90 requisition was approved. The evaluation period was cut short with the decision to reprieve the narrow-body fleet renewal (beyond the 739ER).
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
TSS
Posts: 2498
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:52 pm

RE: Plans For AirTran's 717's?

Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:44 am

Quoting Yflyer (Reply 44):
If the rumor turns out to be true and Delta does buy the AirTran 717s, the MD-88/90 pilots couldn't fly them because of the different cockpit, correct?

I'll leave it to more learned individuals than me to answer that with a definitive "yes" or "no", but I will speculate that at a minimum some additional training would be necessary to fly all three types.

Quoting Yflyer (Reply 44):
But the Saudi MD-90s have a similar cockpit to the 717. So, could a 717 pilot also fly them?

One would think so.

Quoting Yflyer (Reply 44):
If so, if Delta bought 717s would it be feasible for them to also buy the Saudi MD-90s and have one MD-88/90 pilot group and one 717/(ex-Saudia) MD-90 pilot group?

It would as an interim solution, but I suspect that if DL buys both the 717s and the Saudi MD-90s a better long-term solution would be to start upgrading the existing MD-90s to the Saudi/717 standard as they come due for major checks and train all pilots to fly either subtype as needed. This opinion is based on several assumptions of facts not clearly in evidence, including:
1. Delta intends to buy both the 717s and the Saudi MD-90s;
2. 717s and Saudi MD-90s are similar enough to be classed as a single subtype;
3. The differences between MD-88s/current MD-90s and 717s/Saudi MD-90s are minimal enough to allow pilots to be concurrently rated to fly both subtypes;
4. Delta intends to keep both their current MD-90 fleet and their prospective 717 and Saudi fleet in service after the current MD-88 fleet has been retired.
Able to kill active threads stone dead with a single post!
 
User avatar
TZTriStar500
Posts: 872
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 1:33 am

RE: Plans For AirTran's 717's?

Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:56 am

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 39):
speculation is, 20 to Volotea

Its not speculation. There are also no other 717s on the market at this time with the exception of perhaps Turkmenistan's small fleet until WN begins returning their's off lease in 2017.

I do not understand this topic coming up all the time. Even if WN/FL wanted to get rid of a fleet of 88 aircraft right now and they do not until the leases start to expire, it would take 2.5 years at 3 a month to replace. Plus they have many older 733s to replace as well. Second, DL planning to add a fleet of used aircraft they don't currently operate beginning 5 years from now that will be 20 years old by then seems silly at best. And third, the 717 right now is marginally profitable due to its operating costs. Its only going to be attractive in a higher density layout in the future because of its size. For example Volotea will be operating them with all economy 125 pax at 30" pitch. It will only be cheaper to acquire, but its economics will only get worse.

I'm a Douglas fan and wish the aircraft well as the last Douglas airliner to leave Long Beach, but I'm also a realist and even Boeing Capital trying to move a fleet of orphaned 25 ex-YX, ex-MX aircraft over the last few years has been arduous at best and DL was not interested then.
35 years of American Trans Air/ATA Airlines, 1973-2008. A great little airline that will not be soon forgotten.
 
FSDan
Posts: 982
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

RE: Plans For AirTran's 717's?

Sat Mar 17, 2012 4:43 am

Warning: you are about to see my imagination run away a little bit...

I would love to see the 717s go to DL. There is a laundry list of routes that I'm sure they could perform well on, especially out of ATL, MSP, DTW, and LGA.

From ATL: fill in on existing high-frequency DC-9 routes like ATL-MEM, ATL-BNA, ATL-BHM, ATL-CHS, ATL-PNS, ATL-HSV, and ATL-SAV, as well as on routes that warrant mainline, but just on a few flights a day. For example: ATL-JAN, ATL-GSP, ATL-CLE, ATL-GSO, ATL-TLH, ATL-CAE, ATL-LEX, and ATL-TYS. Could also be used to add mainline to a few markets that don't currently see it like ATL-BTR, ATL-MDT, ATL-YYZ, and ATL-YUL.

From MSP: add mainline flights back to Midwestern markets that used to see DC-9 service and lost a lot (or all) of their mainline when the DC-9-30s were retired. Routes such as MSP-FSD, MSP-BIS, MSP-MOT, MSP-FAR, MSP-GFK, MSP-YWG, MSP-MSN, MSP-GRB, MSP-IND, and MSP-CMH. Could also add some mainline service back to core routes like MSP-MCI, MSP-STL, MSP-MKE, and MSP-ORD, as well as MSP-Texas (especially DFW).

From DTW: similar to MSP, add one or two daily mainline flights back to small markets and up the levels of mainline service on important Midwest and East Coast routes that have lost quite a bit of mainline. Routes where a few daily 717 flights could be of use: DTW-MCI, DTW-STL, DTW-GRB, DTW-MSN, DTW-MKE, DTW-ORD, DTW-IND, DTW-GRR, DTW-LAN, DTW-MBS, DTW-YYZ, DTW-CLE, DTW-CMH, DTW-CVG, DTW-SDF, DTW-BNA, DTW-CLT, DTW-RDU, DTW-PIT, DTW-PHL, DTW-EWR, DTW-BUF, DTW-BDL, DTW-PVD.

From LGA: add one or two daily mainline flights on routes like LGA-STL, LGA-IND, LGA-CMH, LGA-BNA, LGA-CLT, LGA-RDU, and LGA-BUF.

Oh, and then there are a few routes from MEM and CVG that seem like they could support at least one daily 717 turn: MEM-DFW, MEM-MCI, MEM-STL, MEM-MSY, MEM-ORD, CVG-ORD, CVG-DCA.

In summary, I think 717s could provide a great way to get a mainline product back on many routes that have lost it due to DC-9 retirements, while not causing the overcapacity that might come from throwing MD-88s on routes to small and mid-sized markets. Also, it would allow more mainline service to be added back to core routes, while still allowing frequency to remain competitive.

Ahhhh, if only...   
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
DTWPurserBoy
Topic Author
Posts: 2361
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:33 pm

RE: Plans For AirTran's 717's?

Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:18 pm

As I said in an earlier posting, the real expense in acquiring a fleet of 88 717's would be the huge cost of training pilots. You would have pilots bidding off of other types which means they would have to be replaced and then THOSE pilots would have to be replaced. It is the Domino Theory in extremis. It is a logistical nightmare and would potentially require the requalification of thousands of pilots, removing them from trips to attend training and paying them for the loss of flying and attending training. As someone earlier said by the time DL got the aircraft they would be 20 years old, marginally profitable and if fuel prices continue to rise you could never make a dime.

Crew scheduling at an airline the size of DL is a delicate ballet act at the best of times and when weather throws a wrench into the works it is a total nightmare. Thankfully, we now have automated systemsthat automatically reroute aircraft and crews when that happens. In the old days it was all done manually....and from experience I can tell you the crew schedulers do NOT like "suggestions" from pilots or flght attendants on how to do their jobs. You could guarantee they would do exactly the opposite of what you had "gently suggested."

It makes more sense to chase good gently-used 737-700's and -800's. DL has already started the retirement of older 757 and MD88's. The -900ER's are just a couple of years away and I bet Boeing could squeeze a few extra -800 onto the assembly line if DL wanted them.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos